just curious if anybody can put a clear finger on why the transgender is so misunderstood. is it a form of racism or genetic discrimination or societies morality standards etc.
I think issues like this are intersectional, with many meeting causes bringing about one effect.
The biggest one I would say would be the lack of comparable experience. They simply have no point of reference for what it's like to experience dysphoria and therefore, find it easier to discriminate due to a lack of empathy.
Are you asking why cis-folk have troubles understanding trans-folk or why they have to be impolite about it? I ask as the title and the question seem, to my limited comprehensive abilities, to be asking two different things.
If it's the former then I am not sure that anyone entirely understands anyone else regardless of any commonalities they may have. If it's the latter, that's cultural. I get very little (as in two VERY minor incidents in over two years) any abuse here in the UK. It seems (to an outsider at least) that folk in the US are more ready to be unpleasant.
Rosie
Yes, the US seems to be hard headed and either question works
The umbrella term is whats making so much trouble.
To many different negative looks of what is seen as trans and how trans act.
GD needs somehow a way to break out away from the umbrella.
I always hated the term transgender but i had to use it. Do not get me started on the word ->-bleeped-<-, WTF
My nickels worth.
Izzy
Apathy and ignorance are usually enough to make the rest of the dominoes fall against us.
If you don't care, you won't care to understand. People fear what they can't understand, and people too often hate what they fear.
I'm confused? How is it misunderstood?
In my experience cis people have been a lot more understanding of my own transition than I personally have. Cis people have always accepted me, but I can't accept me. :-\
Maybe they just don't understand why a lot of trans people don't really fit in with their new gender roles? They judge other cis people like that too anyway.
Quote from: sad panda on July 12, 2014, 03:02:41 PM
I'm confused? How is it misunderstood?
In my experience cis people have been a lot more understanding of my own transition than I personally have. Cis people have always accepted me, but I can't accept me. :-\
Maybe they just don't understand why a lot of trans people don't really fit in with their new gender roles? They judge other cis people like that too anyway.
I was just wondering because of the everyday conflicts that pop up in the news about transgender issues in high schools and discrimination issues in the work place and assorted legal issues and the murders that happen. third world countries have a big issue with tans people. Issues popping up about choice of bathrooms etc. why is trans even an issue in the perception of others, not all others , but it is an issue. Some trans are terrified of even walking around and being seen as trans.
from my experience its religious belief. my friend thinks i'm just mentally ill and that seeing a psychiatrist would fix me. she also goes on to say it doesnt matter because yout biology will stay the same so why even think changing your body would make a difference. people just dont understand that its not biology but psychology. no one will know your biology unless they do a chromosome test or you tell them
cause if you really think about it, we're kind of weird.
Quote from: Vampire Brianna Terryal Onyx on July 12, 2014, 03:16:38 PM
from my experience its religious belief. my friend thinks i'm just mentally ill and that seeing a psychiatrist would fix me. she also goes on to say it doesnt matter because yout biology will stay the same so why even think changing your body would make a difference. people just dont understand that its not biology but psychology. no one will know your biology unless they do a chromosome test or you tell them
Not my experience at all. There are haters out there who try to justify it with their religion, but almost every ex-friend that shat upon me after transition wasn't remotely religious. I also have plenty of religious friends who are fine with me, some of them being trans themselves.
Quote from: stephaniec on July 12, 2014, 03:13:44 PM
I was just wondering because of the everyday conflicts that pop up in the news about transgender issues in high schools and discrimination issues in the work place and assorted legal issues and the murders that happen. third world countries have a big issue with tans people. Issues popping up about choice of bathrooms etc. why is trans even an issue in the perception of others, not all others , but it is an issue. Some trans are terrified of even walking around and being seen as trans.
Well that happens to everyone who is visibly different. If trans people weren't visibly different, most people wouldn't care, (some people would, but believe me, not the majority) so it's not exactly because someone is trans, it's because someone is outside of people's expectations. People struggle to accept someone as a woman who doesn't strike them as being similar to other women, and I think it's sort of fair for them to struggle with that. I mean, again, cis women are forced into the same standards, and it's going to be a long time before those standards are gone.
Beyond my family, surprisingly, I can think of about 14 cis people that I've told I'm transitioned, and not a single one of them has said a single ill word about it or treated me any differently at all.
Putting on my neurology/biology/evopsych hat for a moment to explore a single angle on this question:
I think one thing that makes life very difficult for trans people is that there was a selective pressure in human evolution toward being able to clearly identify gender. The differences in build and facial structure between men and women for example is there to signal to the opposite sex "hey, if we copulate, we can have babies and won't that make our selfish genes happy!".
When someone transitions, it is very difficult to go from one gender to the other completely, and people (uneducated people) experience something akin to the uncanny valley when looking at them. The uncanny valley comes out of robotics research, and basically it is the sensation of discomfort that increases the more human a robot becomes until it passes a certain threshold where it appears "quite human" to them. It comes (from what I have read) from being geared to identify illness in others.
When a person is transitioning genders the same thing occurs. There is a point where the ambiguity of gender will cause discomfort in an uneducated person.
Now I know I said a lot about evolution, but I would be remiss not to add this very salient point:
A person's perception of where that uncanny valley between male and female is has a great deal to do with their socialization. They are taught growing up what signs of fertility and gender are prevalent in that culture and they subconsciously use that when evaluating others. This is why, I think, the visibility of transgender/transexual individuals in media is so important.
Once a person is exposed to enough images of transgender people, their perception of the boundaries between male and female presentation becomes more blurred, and they become more accepting subconsciously of the grey areas in-between. This is why I find the hollywood obsession with extreme archetypical presentations of gender to be harmful. Movies and television are one of the primary ways that young people are taught to view gender in society. I won't say many good things about Japanese cinema, but I will say they treat transgender people a lot more favorably and frequently than the US media.
Of course, I could be wrong about a lot of that, and I am always happy to be corrected.
Quote from: Jill F on July 12, 2014, 03:21:10 PM
Not my experience at all. There are haters out there who try to justify it with their religion, but almost every ex-friend that shat upon me after transition wasn't remotely religious. I also have plenty of religious friends who are fine with me, some of them being trans themselves.
idk, my friend is pentecostal and she firmly says god made us the way we are so what is our right to change our genders and bodies when we were never meant to be the other gender or have that other gender's body. oh course she's says she'll force herself to accept me. there are the occasional homophobes and haters but from my side, i get those religious nuts, thus why i havent told my father's side of the family
Quote from: Vampire Brianna Terryal Onyx on July 12, 2014, 03:31:39 PM
idk, my friend is pentecostal and she firmly says god made us the way we are so what is our right to change our genders and bodies when we were never meant to be the other gender or have that other gender's body. oh course she's says she'll force herself to accept me. there are the occasional homophobes and haters but from my side, i get those religious nuts, thus why i havent told my father's side of the family
I don't think the problem is religion persay, as you could easily come up with a religious doctrine which is supportive or even promotes trangender (I think there are actually culture/religions that do this but they escape me at the moment). The problem in western religion imho is twofold, one is that christian scripture speaks against gender ambiguity, and the second is that conservative culture which predominates western religious culture is obsessed with binary idealized family models and shuns non-conformity. As a result many people within those communities are trained to have a disgust reaction to any non-normative presentation of gender or sexuality. It is this isolationism and idealization of norms that produces the majority of the damage IMHO, and not the scripture. More often than not the scripture is used as an excuse for an existing personal position, just as it was during US slavery.
Also by your friend's logic we should let people die of hiv/aids, shouldn't do facial reconstruction for birth defects, and shouldn't allow plastic surgery, shouldn't do organ transplants, etc etc.. so... yeah.
Some people don't take their logic to it's absurd conclusions and it ends up making them look silly.
-Anna
I think all of the issues brought up so far play a part. I think point of reference, misogyny and closed mindedness make up the holy trinity though. How can we expect someone to truly understand/accept something many of us who are transgender can't understand/accept ourselves? Also, whether people want to acknowledge it or not, the US looks down on women, and being like women. A woman may be valued individually, but femininity itself is not valued for much beyond beauty and care taking.
Religion also plays a role especially with immediate family. I think religion goes along with closed mindedness for many but not all. I know the reason i haven't come out to my family is because of their attitudes based in religion. It doesn't allow for them to be open to homosexuality or transgender people.
Excellent question, Stephanie, and one I have given some thought to. I can't claim to be able to give you a definitive answer, mainly because that would require me to be able to read cisgender people's minds. I'm not a mind-reader, and anyway a lot of the real hard-core trans-haters don't seem to have too much in the way of a mind that could be read. But I can give you some conclusions I've come to based on the things I've seen cisgender people say on various forums when trans issues arise.
(1) The first reason a lot of cispeople fail to understand us is that they don't want to. Like gun control and abortion, e.g., ->-bleeped-<- is a hugely emotive issue. Trans-haters don't want to think about it, don't want to understand it. They simply want to condemn it.
(2) Cisgender people seem to be exclusively "body-oriented". That is, their concept of sex/gender is based solely on what sort of genitalia a given individual has. If you've got male genitalia, you're a man. If you've got female genitalia, you're a woman. For them, the question is that simple.
When discussing ->-bleeped-<-, either among ourselves or with cispeople, we need to bear in mind that a cisperson's definition of "a man" is "a cisgender man"—that is, someone with male genitalia. A cisperson's definition of "a woman" is "a cisgender woman"—that is, someone with female genitalia. These are their concepts of "man" and "woman" because they don't have our experience. So that if we're talking to cispeople and we're using the terms "man" and "woman", they're automatically going to be thinking of "cisgender man" and "cisgender woman". They can't help it. Those are the only concepts they have. Which means that we're not going to be able to communicate with them.
They want to leave the brain/psychology/mind (whatever you want to call it) out of the equation because they don't seem to see it as relevant. It's hard to say why that is. I think they simply see the body and mind as a package deal. If you've got certain genitalia, you've got the corresponding psychology. They can't imagine it being any other way.
We want to talk about the psychology because that's how we define ourselves. They want to bring everything back to the body because that's how they define themselves.
(3) So we have a failure to communicate. I myself have been searching for some way to break the deadlock.
Cispeople fail to understand the distinction between sex and gender—that is, between body and mind. But the standard explanation of that distinction that we transpeople propose seems to me inadequate. We often define "gender" (as opposed to "sex") as your perception of yourself. If you perceive yourself as female, you're female by gender. If you perceive yourself as male, you're male by gender.
But I don't think this gets us anywhere. Because the trans-haters will simply retort, "Well, you're a man (because you've got male genitalia), but you perceive yourself as female. You're clearly deluded." Or, "You're a woman (because you've got female genitalia), but you perceive yourself as male. You're clearly deluded."
This standard explanation also strikes me as inadequate simply because I don't merely perceive myself to have a female psychology. I do in fact have a female psychology. I don't want to talk about perceptions when what we're dealing with is plain fact.
So I'm looking for different terms in which to explain ->-bleeped-<- to the uninitiated. Here's an analogy that I've come up with recently and that I find a very good explanation of how I feel about myself. Let's put it in "spiritual terms", because this is something that most people (even the non-religious like me) can get a handle on:
The body is merely a shell that houses the soul, and what is truly important about a person is the soul because that is their true self. Now somewhere out there, up in heaven perhaps, there's a host of souls waiting to be implanted in bodies in order to enjoy their time on earth. Some of them are male souls, some of them are female souls.
When a woman conceives, if that embryo has XX chromosomes, a female soul is assigned to it. If it has XY chromosomes, a male soul is assigned to it. But sometimes a mistake is made. The angel (or whoever) in charge of assigning souls to bodies nods off, and it can happen that a female soul is assigned to an XY embryo or a male soul is assigned to an XX embryo. When that happens, you have a transgender person.
So this is the way I'd explain myself to a cisgender person: I was born a female soul in a male body. And how do I know that I have a female soul, that I am a female soul? Well, because I prove it every day. I live female, I'm drawn to things female, I feel at home in the female camp, I find peace in the female camp. Let the trans-haters or anybody else disprove that notion.
With this analogy I move people away from the limited definition of sex/gender being linked solely to one's genitalia. I am a female soul, regardless of my physical configuration. You can talk about my body all you like. I'm talking about my soul. You can insist as often as you like that I was born with a male body. I've already conceded the point. You can insist as often as you like that someone with male genitalia is "a man". But I'm talking about my soul, which is female—and it is my soul that makes me transgender. A man like you, my trans-hating friend, doesn't have a female soul as I do. That is the difference between us.
Now the trans-haters won't like this analogy. That's OK, because they don't like anything. But most cispeople (at least in our part of the world) aren't trans-haters. They're merely puzzled. Perhaps this analogy that I use, or something similar to it, will give them a notion of ->-bleeped-<- that they can get a handle on.
It depends on....when a TS was feminine pre everything, most people will understand and support her.
But who on earth will understand a very masculine MTF who wasn´t only very masculine to start with, but also has a wife and is a bio-father to several children and at early/mid 40's claims to be a woman, no less than 100% woman?
Only similar MTF within the MTF community will understand and support them.
I don't think that is quite so broadly true Dahlia.
Most people who are educated in modern sociology, psychology, feminist discourse etc. know that sexuality, gender, and identity can be fluid.
I look at it this way:
You have people who want life to be simple and want to stamp out all the difference so that the world can be their version of beautiful.
Then you have the people who want life to be complex and find that complexity and difference to be the beauty in the world and are pissed off at the people trying to stamp it out.
I think you know which camp I am in.
"who on earth...?" - I think you'll find a lot of cis people do in fact understand that group of sisters which you just backhanded. And if other trans women can't understand them just because they are under forty, were not masculine and not parents, then they must be missing some major empathy.
Quote from: sad panda on July 12, 2014, 03:02:41 PM
I'm confused? How is it misunderstood?
In my experience cis people have been a lot more understanding of my own transition than I personally have. Cis people have always accepted me, but I can't accept me. :-\
Maybe they just don't understand why a lot of trans people don't really fit in with their new gender roles? They judge other cis people like that too anyway.
^This. I don't think it's misunderstood at all. maybe the whole genderqueer or gender fluid is confusing, but beyond that the garden variety binary trans person is pretty well understood. Also, I have yet to have one person outside of my family who doesn't support me and some of them go out of their way too. Sure, some are prolly like I knew that femme looking, woman acting queer was really a ->-bleeped-<-. But no one has said anything.
I had an incident recently but it was in one of the worst neighborhoods in the country and not because I'm trans but because I'm trans and attractive to some, aka a trap. Even though I never came on to them and have a BF.
I was at a rehab for substance abuse issues and dressed as a man there (even though the nurse spit out her coffee when i told her "don't worry no one will notice that I look kinda femme.) She literally was agape. "Sweetie, there's no way you can hide it. It's plainly obvious." My point is I ran into two of the peeps I was in rehab with on the outside while presenting pretty femme and with my BF and the girl called me she without asking and the guy gace me a hug when he left. They treated me prolly even better than in the place.
But this is my experience and I imagine it's harder if you don't pass and are not femme/girly. And if you don't like men, then it's like why? I don't think people understand that. I do. But maybe I wouldn't if I didn't have such sever genital dysphoria. It's the only dysphoria I have and I barely know what people mean when they talk about it (dysphoria that is not genital based is what I mean). No one has explained it to me. Maybe I only have genital dysphoria cause my body is so femme though.
****
In regards to the other post about being femme and all and older transtioning parents, I do think there is a lack of understanding and empathy (or any empathy) from cis peeps in regards to MTFs with kids who are masculine and then transition. I dont think its so much the masculinity as it is the kids. People are uber protective of kids these days and when a father becomes a woman people get weirded out sometimes, cause they say "what about the kids?" "Why did they have them. Why did they marry?" And in someways it's a valid point because the kids and wives do get hurt and as a community we only defend our side and nver consider the wives and kids. I totally understand and support anyone's transition but I can also see from the other side and think "I get that they dont understand it and think that they should have not married." It's really hard. IDK. Don't hate me.
***
Fair or not, what it comes down to is passing visually and being even a little femme and having at least an andro voice. if you have any of the preceding, you'll be accepted. Before transition I can't count the number of people who told me that I should just get a sex change and become a woman cause I'm already 90 percent there.
I understand what Dahlia is saying. From what little i have seen (and my rl experience is very limited) the younger one is when they come out, it seems that it is accepted as something that is more innate to them. The further a man goes into age, and the more masculine he is, the announcement seems to be met with more skepticism and is much more likely to be seen as a perversion.
I would recommend reading the whipping girl by Julia Serano she gives several well thought explanations. Mostly it because we challenge the way they see gender. Many people can't really wrap their heads around why someone would possibly want to change their gender.
sexism plays a huge role. In the book I mentioned earlier Julia says that us being transgender actually challenges their sexist beliefs. She states that their are 2 different kinds of sexism. traditional sexism is the belief that men are better than women. Trans women throw a wrench into that theory because we are born male but we wish to become female which is seen as inferior. This form of sexism also affects trans men because they are viewed as less than cis-guys by people who hold this belief.
The other form of sexism is the oppositional sexism. It is the idea that their are only two genders and they are mutually exclusive. people with in the trans spectrum know that this is not true. Their are lots of people that live between and outside of the gender binary. But to a cis person who has never met a trans person this completely derails there formally held belief. that is why they often don't accept the gender that we Identify with as our "real" gender.
If u agree with most of what I said, I would definitely read some of Julia Serano's work she is a brilliant author.
I believe it's because a lot of people do not believe there is such a thing as a gender identity programmed into the brain.
If your gender identity matches your body sex, it's hard to notice.
As my mom keeps putting it: "I just don't think about it! Why do you have to think about it? Why can't you just accept the sex you were born as?"
=_=
I started transition at age 47, have two children and was an alpha dog Firefighter/Paramedic for 28 years. I have not been clocked once since I started RLE on January 1st of this year. I was just telling Cindy that I felt guilty about passing so well when many here struggle to get out the door. Some of the post I have read here seem to indicate if you are over 40 with children to just forget it. This does a huge disservice to this community as a whole. It must be terrible to have some of these ideas about your own community. :(
The problem is, we as humans can only understand things through the vantage point of our own limited experiences.
Whenever someone describes something to us, we're always mentally comparing it to things that we ourselves have gone through in order to understand it and empathize with it.
Cis people do not experience dysphoria. Therefore they're always trying to compare it to things that they have felt.
So, well, it's no wonder that we're so often criticized by cis-men for being deviant sexual fetishists, because that's their experience with feminine things, is being sexually attracted to them. It's why women criticize trans men for just trying to transition in order to gain male privilege, because they have likely experienced frustration with being female due to social problems, so they're assuming it's the same. These people have no reference point. They have never felt the feeling that their own body was wrong, or that their social role was wrong. They're trying to filter these things through their own experiences with the opposite sex.
I know I did the same thing when I first hit puberty. I actually thought that I was heterosexual, because, well, other guys liked looking at girls too. So I assumed that all guys were doing the same thing as me, looking at women and imagining that they were them. I thought that this was what made heterosexual relationships, was men wondering what it was like to be women, and women wondering what it was like to be men, and that's why they were so fascinated with each-other. I was completely shocked when I learned that other people really weren't doing that, they were just looking at the opposite sex and imagining having sex with them, or simply just turned on by the view.
Again... it's all trying to understand other's emotions based on only your own limited experiences.
Carrie, I had much the same experience re: sexuality and imagining -being- female.
It was definitely a clue early on that I completely misunderstood :)
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on July 12, 2014, 09:27:38 PM
I started transition at age 47, have two children and was an alpha dog Firefighter/Paramedic for 28 years. I have not been clocked once since I started RLE on January 1st of this year. I was just telling Cindy that I felt guilty about passing so well when many here struggle to get out the door. Some of the post I have read here seem to indicate if you are over 40 with children to just forget it. This does a huge disservice to this community as a whole. It must be terrible to have some of these ideas about your own community. :(
If mine was one of the posts you are referring to, I made no comment on transgender people. I merely restated the unfortunate perceptions that many of the cis people i know have of us.
Quote from: Kylie on July 12, 2014, 09:49:57 PM
If mine was one of the posts you are referring to, I made no comment on transgender people. I merely restated the unfortunate perceptions that many of the cis people i know have of us.
Not you sweetie so relax! :)
Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 12, 2014, 09:39:24 PMThese people have no reference point. They have never felt the feeling that their own body was wrong, or that their social role was wrong.
Uh, you don't know that though.
Quote from: sad panda on July 12, 2014, 10:14:53 PM
Uh, you don't know that though.
In my opinion Yes! They would be members here joining for support. Once gender Dysphoria gets a hold on you it only gets worse. I personally have not know one single person successfully live without eventually getting treatment. It is more horrible the longer you fight it. :)
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on July 12, 2014, 10:24:33 PM
In my opinion Yes! They would be members here joining for support. Once gender Dysphoria gets a hold on you it only gets worse. I personally have not know one single person successfully live without eventually getting treatment. It is more horrible the longer you fight it. :)
I'm sorry but I think you misunderstood what we were talking about. It was about cis people.
Yes to cis people NOT having a reference point. They do not know the pain of feeling wrong every day about their gender. They do not know the inner struggles and you can not describe it to them adequately. The have no comprehension! :)
Being different. That's the bottom line. As far as most people are concerned, being trans is so far past the status quo, they cannot accept it. People like my parents are so old fashioned and so hard headed, they cannot grasp the idea of transgender. They're stuck in their old ways and why should anyone be different, according to them. Even being gay is something mind blowing and shunned even today, and transitioning is such an incomprehensible idea it's immediately rejected. I myself was taught to reject it and reject my inner self, and it took me a long, long time to get past that and accept me for me. ;D
Quote from: suzifrommd on July 12, 2014, 08:42:53 PM
I believe it's because a lot of people do not believe there is such a thing as a gender identity programmed into the brain.
If your gender identity matches your body sex, it's hard to notice.
I agree, and lots of feminists back in the day seemed to put a huge amount of stock on gender being an entirely social thing. I understand the temptation to label gender a social thing, because then it lets you really see the sexes as equal; with the feminine being oppressed so it fit in nicely with radical feminist ideology. Luckily the majority of feminists these days understand that there is gender identity, and that it is okay for women to be different than men that doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated with equality.
Sadly, I think the remaining radical exclusionary feminists seem to have an outsized influence versus their numbers.
In any case, understanding isn't required, just acceptance. I don't understand the Amish, but I accept them. I am not about to attack them or their way of life, all I need to do is be friendly and not get in their way or pressure their horse and buggies with my tractor trailer (I do goto amish areas in PA a bit).
What I really cannot stand... at all....
Is when TERF's ally with conservative groups that also promote misogyny in order to further their campaign against (read, ensure discrimination against) trans people.
It is so WTF for me.. I just cannot figure it out.
Cognitive dissonance overload.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 12, 2014, 06:42:18 PM
...I do think there is a lack of understanding and empathy (or any empathy) from cis peeps in regards to MTFs with kids who are masculine and then transition...
...Fair or not, what it comes down to is passing visually and being even a little femme and having at least an andro voice. if you have any of the preceding, you'll be accepted. Before transition I can't count the number of people who told me that I should just get a sex change and become a woman cause I'm already 90 percent there.
I hadn't thought of that, but yeah, now that I consider it, it does kind of come down to passing, plus also to how feminine one was pre-transition. People do seem to (wrongly) assume that gender=interests and gender=sex. So those who look female-sexed visually are usually told things along the lines of "what? You used to be a GUY? Wow, well I don't care, you're beautiful! You're definitely a woman to me. Congratulations!" And they get MUCH more leeway in terms of self-expression because people automatically accept them as female when looking at them.
And you know, I guess I can't talk either when it comes to understanding. I always talk as if I'm automatically assuming that people don't understand, and talking as if this is why we need to stand up and educate these inevitably-non-understanding people, but when I think about it, there wasn't a single person (except maybe my dad,) who gave me the least bit of backlash about my transition. So maybe it does come down to interests and pre-transition effeminacy. That one article I critiqued about "so you want to be a T-girl?" with all of those horror stories about friend and family rejection? It was written by someone who was deep in denial pre-transition. So the author inevitably had to face the ridicule of people who knew her as a dudely dude with manly interests. And, well, even though I never looked the least bit androgynous as a guy, (I was tall and large-built and very thick-limbed,) I really didn't have to explain much. All I said in my coming-out letter was "I developed gender dysphoria around age 12," and that was that. Not a single person questioned me on it. Quite the contrary. Everybody started saying "you know, I always thought you were gay anyway," or even my own mom saying "you know, I noticed you were more feminine than the other boys since the day you were born. You were always more verbal, and so much more well-behaved" and stuff like that.
So I guess the lesson is to not go into denial? Just be yourself pre-transition and people will understand you?
I dunno. I guess I shouldn't take this defensive attitude all the time where I'm immediately taking an "us vs. them" attitude and expecting nobody to understand and to have to explain it.
Quote from: amber roskamp on July 12, 2014, 08:37:17 PM
The other form of sexism is the oppositional sexism. It is the idea that their are only two genders and they are mutually exclusive. people with in the trans spectrum know that this is not true. Their are lots of people that live between and outside of the gender binary. But to a cis person who has never met a trans person this completely derails there formally held belief. that is why they often don't accept the gender that we Identify with as our "real" gender.
I've been doing a lot of research lately on indigenous peoples, mostly here in the US because that's where the wealth of information seems to be but also about other countries, and these peoples globally had more than two genders in their societies. Often they would wait to see how a person "presented" themselves naturally before being able to see where they fit genderwise.
A common thread within these peoples in regards to gender were females, females who displayed masculine traits and became hunter gatherers, males who displayed female traits and took on female roles and males.
As brutal colonization began with Europeans invading and conquering these lands they brought with them their two gender views that were based on their religion and wiped out tolerance for anyone who falls outside of the two gender belief system.
Consequently many of these "Two Spirited" people were considered Shamans or held high positions in the tribe as they had the ability to see the world from more than one perspective. The willful murdering of these Two Spirited people was a way to separate indigenous peoples from their belief systems and force them to the conquering lands belief system.
Sadly, as we come to our present day, many cultures are now based on generational religious beliefs regarding a two gender only way of existence.
I'm not posting this to spark any religious debate or religious hate, goodness knows there's enough hatred to go around, I'm merely presenting some interesting facts I've found in my research.
Trans people have always existed. We are a natural part of the human family just like everyone else. I hope that as time goes on and we continue to move toward equality that more and more cis-gendered people will be able to see us simply as fellow human beings.
You are sooooo correct. I was born on a reservation, and because of my IS condition and that I always identified as female our elders knew of my gender status, for lack of better words, and gender issues weren't pushed with regards to who, or what I played with during my early childhood. And after losing my Mom, then a year later being adopted off the reservation our elders gave my new Mom very strict instructions regarding me and gender in that I was supposed to be able to choose the gender I felt most comfortable with when puberty began. And had things with me actually happened that way I would have been much better off, and would have transitioned much earlier.My adopted Mom sometime later married who would against my wishes become my adopted father, a macho Catholic man of Cicilian Italian descent and my life as I knew it was turned upside down. Long story short, during visits during the summers of my remaining childhood back to my reservation a lot of what you've pointed out here with regard to First Nations peoples and being "two Spirited"was explained to me by the elders. What your saying here is very accurate.
Thank you for taking the time to research and post this. :icon_bunch:
Ally :icon_flower:
To me there are a cluster of reasons.
First off, Most people can't understand mos things that go beyond whatever they grew up knowing. People don't like it when you force them to question what they've always known, it makes them uncomfortable.
Second, To most people whatever you're born that's just what you are, No matter how much you contradict your birth gender and sex. To even bring it up is kinda like when people were told the earth was round, It's laughable despite the proof. I think also because it's not stressed that being trans is akin to any other birth defect it makes people think it's a choice. Not to say we need sympathy, but it brings home the point that we are born this way. People forget that trans adults were trans teens who were trans kids, and I think that once it's driven home that innocent kids struggle with this it helps people to be compassionate. After all it's pretty hard for most people to attack a child who is hurting.
Third, I think it's due to years of lack of education. I like to go all the way back to sex ed in middle school. They teach you about male & female reproduction and safe sex, but they don't go deeper and talk about sexuality or gender. I think if this were taught than it would give young minds not only self understanding but understanding of others. It's pretty hard to change the mind of say a 30-50 yr old's mind than a 15-20 yr old mind. Most older people get set in their ways and refuse to go against what they've only known to be true.
Forth, I think the lack of laws and federal protections for all minorities give the impression that it's open season on all of us. It's been that way since this country was founded. For a long time people of color weren't even considered human and put up with, and still do ,with irrational discrimination. Anytime you aren't apart of a majority it leaves you open to ignorance.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 14, 2014, 05:00:06 PM
And you know, I guess I can't talk either when it comes to understanding. I always talk as if I'm automatically assuming that people don't understand, and talking as if this is why we need to stand up and educate these inevitably-non-understanding people, but when I think about it, there wasn't a single person (except maybe my dad,) who gave me the least bit of backlash about my transition.
We can perhaps draw a distinction between understanding and acceptance. I live in a small town where all the adults I know are perfectly accepting of me. (Some of the schoolkids are a different story altogether.) Now it's doubtful how many of them truly understand ->-bleeped-<-. E.g., one woman who's totally accepting and supportive began asking me questions that indicated that she didn't have the first idea what ->-bleeped-<- was all about. And my sister, who's also been very, very good to me, once said, "I just can't wrap my head around this."
It may be that the people of this town think of me as "that fella who likes to dress like a lady". If they do, there's not much I can do about that. None of them are interested in sitting down and having a chat with me about it. But in the end, it doesn't really matter what they think. They don't hassle me in any way. They let me go about my business and live my life. And that's what we want, isn't it?
It wouldn't be any surprise if they don't understand. We have a hard time ourselves figuring it out. But most people in this world are decent people. They just want to live their lives in peace, and they'll leave you alone if you leave them alone. We get out and live our lives and show others that we're decent people. Bit by bit acceptance will become more widespread.
From my feminist perspective I find that it is inter sectional but a huge factor is a male dominate society (patriarchal) where male privilege does exist and people have a hard time seeing how a "man" would want to throw that away and "become" a woman. Women are always seen as the other. Gender roles, Religion, cis normatvity, and biology also factor in. When people know we are trans we are helping to breaki down these binary systems in society and challenging them in peoples minds. Just my theory and opinion google terms if you don't know them already.
Quote from: Allyda on July 14, 2014, 06:53:01 PM
Thank you for taking the time to research and post this. :icon_bunch:
You're very welcome Ally and I'm glad you were able to achieve freedom and become who you were meant to be despite the challenges. The Two Spirit path has become very near and dear to my heart because of the path I personally walk.
because they don't know it's a real thing...
Quote from: stephaniec on July 12, 2014, 01:36:58 PM
just curious if anybody can put a clear finger on why the transgender is so misunderstood. is it a form of racism or genetic discrimination or societies morality standards etc.
Suspect that non TG folk do not have the vocabulary, need or ability to understand something that is so far removed from their life experience or norm that they lack an appropriate frame of reference and therefore lack insight, understanding and empathy.
I would post my thoughts (as similar to others' as they are), but I'm not sure that I should post in this area, being a only partner of an MtF. I don't want to step on any toes!
BTW, it's nice to meet you all! I've been lurking for a while and will make a post in my SO area later (I'm still not sure I should post in this area).
Quote from: Kitty. on July 15, 2014, 10:26:36 AM
I would post my thoughts (as similar to others' as they are), but I'm not sure that I should post in this area, being a only partner of an MtF. I don't want to step on any toes!
Hi, Kitty! I can't speak for others, of course, but I for one would be very interested in hearing your thoughts. As a transperson, I'm very curious to know how cisgender people see ->-bleeped-<-. If you do want to speak out, you certainly won't be stepping on my toes.
Oh, and BTW, I don't think anybody here will have anything against "only a partner of an MTF." We do like friends and allies, you know.
Quote from: Kitty. on July 15, 2014, 10:26:36 AM
I would post my thoughts (as similar to others' as they are), but I'm not sure that I should post in this area, being a only partner of an MtF. I don't want to step on any toes!
BTW, it's nice to meet you all! I've been lurking for a while and will make a post in my SO area later (I'm still not sure I should post in this area).
any helpful insight is very welcome from my point of view
Quote from: Kitty. on July 15, 2014, 10:26:36 AM
I would post my thoughts (as similar to others' as they are), but I'm not sure that I should post in this area, being a only partner of an MtF. I don't want to step on any toes!
BTW, it's nice to meet you all! I've been lurking for a while and will make a post in my SO area later (I'm still not sure I should post in this area).
Post away, as Stephanie and Foxglove both pointed out, Allies are welcome and we would love to hear a cisgendered point of view, so to speak.
Ally :icon_flower:
Hello! Thanks for being so lovely. I have been following this forum for a while, and everyone seems so supportive and welcoming.
For me, I think it comes down to lack of understanding. I knew the term "sex change" and that was about it and, to my shame, I didn't really think on it one way or the other. I didn't know GD made people suffer. I didn't truly understand it until my partner struggled with GD. I also think the term "trans" really doesn't help, because that is too easily confused with "transvestite" - and I can tell you, it's difficult to wrap your head around the difference, at first, as daft as that sounds for those suffering GD. In the early days, all I could understand was that my "male" partner was wanting to look female. My brain wouldn't make the connection between that and "him" actually being a female. It took a while. Since that time, I've seen a lot of people misunderstanding her GD. From simple, "You should just hang around with guys again. Guys will want you to be masculine", to "But in all my photos, you look male". As if it's a choice for you!
I'm sorry that I, too, didn't have much understanding of GD at first. So yes, more public awareness - especially of how appalling and unforgiving the condition is for you - would help immensely. But that's true of so many things in life, like conditions/illnesses/disorders (I suffer from a little-understood and untreatable condition).
Also, as someone who has had to confront the realisation of their partner being transgendered, I can say that, at first, when you hear that someone has realised they've been suffering from GD their whole life without knowing it, it's not so easy to see beyond the shell surrounding the person - the shell you had to manufacture to fit in society; clothes, mannerisms, ways of talking, etc. - to see the soul underneath. If you have known someone long enough, you don't actually see them any more - you see what you expect to see, the "shell". That's hard to unlearn, and I suspect harder for you since you have to essentially break your shell, find out who you are and should have been, and remake yourselves - and all the while, faced with a society that doesn't understand.
I have been lucky enough to have a gender that matches my body. Because of this, I didn't even really know that there was anything different. Now, I feel so ignorant, like because I was born okay, I was blind to others' suffering. I have so much sadness that society as a whole is so ignorant. The thought of things like GD doesn't even enter our comfortable little worlds.
But I think a lot of people would care and be hugely supportive if they knew more about GD and there was more support for you from professionals. But right now it's still a hush-hush topic, and that needs to be changed.
Quote from: Kitty. on July 15, 2014, 11:10:07 AM
Hello! Thanks for being so lovely. I have been following this forum for a while, and everyone seems so supportive and welcoming.
For me, I think it comes down to lack of understanding. I knew the term "sex change" and that was about it and, to my shame, I didn't really think on it one way or the other. I didn't know GD made people suffer. I didn't truly understand it until my partner struggled with GD. I also think the term "trans" really doesn't help, because that is too easily confused with "transvestite" - and I can tell you, it's difficult to wrap your head around the difference, at first, as daft as that sounds for those suffering GD. In the early days, all I could understand was that my "male" partner was wanting to look female. My brain wouldn't make the connection between that and "him" actually being a female. It took a while. Since that time, I've seen a lot of people misunderstanding her GD. From simple, "You should just hang around with guys again. Guys will want you to be masculine", to "But in all my photos, you look male". As if it's a choice for you!
I'm sorry that I, too, didn't have much understanding of GD at first. So yes, more public awareness - especially of how appalling and unforgiving the condition is for you - would help immensely. But that's true of so many things in life, like conditions/illnesses/disorders (I suffer from a little-understood and untreatable condition).
Also, as someone who has had to confront the realisation of their partner being transgendered, I can say that, at first, when you hear that someone has realised they've been suffering from GD their whole life without knowing it, it's not so easy to see beyond the shell surrounding the person - the shell you had to manufacture to fit in society; clothes, mannerisms, ways of talking, etc. - to see the soul underneath. If you have known someone long enough, you don't actually see them any more - you see what you expect to see, the "shell". That's hard to unlearn, and I suspect harder for you since you have to essentially break your shell, find out who you are and should have been, and remake yourselves - and all the while, faced with a society that doesn't understand.
I have been lucky enough to have a gender that matches my body. Because of this, I didn't even really know that there was anything different. Now, I feel so ignorant, like because I was born okay, I was blind to others' suffering. I have so much sadness that society as a whole is so ignorant. The thought of things like GD doesn't even enter our comfortable little worlds.
But I think a lot of people would care and be hugely supportive if they knew more about GD and there was more support for you from professionals. But right now it's still a hush-hush topic, and that needs to be changed.
thank you so much for your thoughts
Thank you! It's so nerve-wracking making a first big post. I don't have the best brain, so organising my thoughts can be difficult at times.
But I want you all to know that there ARE people out there who love and support you. I find you all so incredibly strong, and I know some of you probably feel the opposite. You're an inspiration.
Quote from: Kitty. on July 15, 2014, 11:10:07 AM
Hello! Thanks for being so lovely. I have been following this forum for a while, and everyone seems so supportive and welcoming.
For me, I think it comes down to lack of understanding. I knew the term "sex change" and that was about it and, to my shame, I didn't really think on it one way or the other. I didn't know GD made people suffer. I didn't truly understand it until my partner struggled with GD. I also think the term "trans" really doesn't help, because that is too easily confused with "transvestite" - and I can tell you, it's difficult to wrap your head around the difference, at first, as daft as that sounds for those suffering GD. In the early days, all I could understand was that my "male" partner was wanting to look female. My brain wouldn't make the connection between that and "him" actually being a female. It took a while. Since that time, I've seen a lot of people misunderstanding her GD. From simple, "You should just hang around with guys again. Guys will want you to be masculine", to "But in all my photos, you look male". As if it's a choice for you!
I'm sorry that I, too, didn't have much understanding of GD at first. So yes, more public awareness - especially of how appalling and unforgiving the condition is for you - would help immensely. But that's true of so many things in life, like conditions/illnesses/disorders (I suffer from a little-understood and untreatable condition).
Also, as someone who has had to confront the realisation of their partner being transgendered, I can say that, at first, when you hear that someone has realised they've been suffering from GD their whole life without knowing it, it's not so easy to see beyond the shell surrounding the person - the shell you had to manufacture to fit in society; clothes, mannerisms, ways of talking, etc. - to see the soul underneath. If you have known someone long enough, you don't actually see them any more - you see what you expect to see, the "shell". That's hard to unlearn, and I suspect harder for you since you have to essentially break your shell, find out who you are and should have been, and remake yourselves - and all the while, faced with a society that doesn't understand.
I have been lucky enough to have a gender that matches my body. Because of this, I didn't even really know that there was anything different. Now, I feel so ignorant, like because I was born okay, I was blind to others' suffering. I have so much sadness that society as a whole is so ignorant. The thought of things like GD doesn't even enter our comfortable little worlds.
But I think a lot of people would care and be hugely supportive if they knew more about GD and there was more support for you from professionals. But right now it's still a hush-hush topic, and that needs to be changed.
Hello Kitty (hey, that's a thing), welcome, and thanks for the post. It was nice to read that. I myself didn't really understand GD for much of my life. I thought it was a normal feeling and something that I could just ignore. Unfortunately, I was way off, it's impossible to ignore. Gender encompasses nearly every aspect of life. As you age and become more aware of your situation, feelings of regret, hopelessness and shame seem to set in. Also, I never totally hated the sight of my body, but that has definitely changed over the last year or so as I've gotten old enough to feel less boyish and more manish.
The whole concept of the shell that you present is also well said. I put up quite a shell. Never really felt right playing sports, but I was great; played baseball (2x MVP, 10x All-Star, 2x HR Derby champion), basketball (1x All-Star), soccer, and track. I'm also primarily into "male oriented" media in terms of music, television and films. However, I sort of always felt wrong and that people never really saw me for who I was. I've always had feelings of non-existence and pointlessness; it's only recently that I came to realize why that was.
It makes me feel better to know there are people out there, like yourself, who are willing to show empathy and make an effort to understand. Thanks...
Quote from: Kitty. on July 15, 2014, 11:10:07 AM
For me, I think it comes down to lack of understanding. I knew the term "sex change" and that was about it and, to my shame, I didn't really think on it one way or the other. I didn't know GD made people suffer. . .
Kitty, thanks very much for this post. It brought tears to my eyes.
When you're trans, you just have to get used to the awful things people say about you. They know nothing about ->-bleeped-<- and what transpeople go through, and they treat it all like it's one big joke.
It is so refreshing to meet someone who's willing to think and learn, to understand and accept. And you don't need to apologise for your initial lack of understanding. It's not easy for anyone to understand, not even us transpeople. I wish you all the best and hope things go very well for you and your partner. You deserve the best.
(And tell your partner you're a jewel. Lord knows all of us would like to have someone like you.)
Quote from: Kitty. on July 15, 2014, 11:10:07 AM
Hello! Thanks for being so lovely. I have been following this forum for a while, and everyone seems so supportive and welcoming.
I suspect harder for you since you have to essentially break your shell, find out who you are and should have been, and remake yourselves - and all the while, faced with a society that doesn't understand.
I have been lucky enough to have a gender that matches my body. Because of this, I didn't even really know that there was anything different. Now, I feel so ignorant, like because I was born okay, I was blind to others' suffering. I have so much sadness that society as a whole is so ignorant. The thought of things like GD doesn't even enter our comfortable little worlds.
But I think a lot of people would care and be hugely supportive if they knew more about GD and there was more support for you from professionals. But right now it's still a hush-hush topic, and that needs to be changed.
Hi Kitty,
Thanks for your post. Your SO is a very lucky woman to have you.
Yes, growing up knowing your body is wrong throws many challenges your way, and sometimes as in my case a few horrors as well. But we live, and learn to cope and get through these things and when it is time begin our transition to correct what a lot of us feel is a birth defect, and align our outer bodies with our inner core identity, or in other words, who we are inside, and for some of us such as myself, who we've always been inside.
I'm very happy to hear your willing to take the time to learn about us.
Best Wishes to you and your SO. :icon_bunch:
Allie :icon_flower:
Hi Kitty
Thank you for such a thoughtful post. You may not have understood gd at first but your sense and understanding of it is now quite profound and I am quite moved by your empathy. Your concept of shell and wanting/needing to align presentation with spirit and communicate that authentically is a challenge. For non binaries born male it is a similarly challenging journey. Please keep posting - any thought comment or sharing is potentially of enormous benefit to so many members of our community.
Safe travels
Aisla
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on July 12, 2014, 09:27:38 PM
I started transition at age 47, have two children and was an alpha dog Firefighter/Paramedic for 28 years. I have not been clocked once since I started RLE on January 1st of this year.
Sounds like bragging, a masculine trait...and sounds like over-selfconfident and an inability to notice facial expressions/body language etc, a masculine trait too..
Going from 100% alphadog masculine to 'unclockable' feminine in 7 months....? I find that hard to believe.
Wow! Thank you for such wonderful replies. I may not have known about GD at first, but living with my partner** has taught me plenty. I see her daily suffering, and though I can't help her no matter how much I long to, I'm always there to offer smiles, love, and a listening ear. She's my beautiful soulmate, and I hate that she's hurting.
And so many positives have come to light because of her situation. Even my sister, who was kind of stuck in life, wants to get into uni with the aim that one day she will have a job helping trans people, because there's not many people out there for you.
**More specifically, fiancée, since I proposed to her last week and, amazingly, she said yes! :) :) :) (I wrote about it in my thread in the SO's area.)
Quote from: Kitty. on July 16, 2014, 09:17:14 AM
Wow! Thank you for such wonderful replies. I may not have known about GD at first, but living with my partner** has taught me plenty. I see her daily suffering, and though I can't help her no matter how much I long to, I'm always there to offer smiles, love, and a listening ear. She's my beautiful soulmate, and I hate that she's hurting.
And so many positives have come to light because of her situation. Even my sister, who was kind of stuck in life, wants to get into uni with the aim that one day she will have a job helping trans people, because there's not many people out there for you.
**More specifically, fiancée, since I proposed to her last week and, amazingly, she said yes! :) :) :) (I wrote about it in my thread in the SO's area.)
wow!
Quote from: Kitty. on July 16, 2014, 09:17:14 AM
**More specifically, fiancée, since I proposed to her last week and, amazingly, she said yes! :) :) :) (I wrote about it in my thread in the SO's area.)
Congratulations, that's great!!!
Quote from: Kitty. on July 16, 2014, 09:17:14 AM
Wow! Thank you for such wonderful replies. I may not have known about GD at first, but living with my partner** has taught me plenty. I see her daily suffering, and though I can't help her no matter how much I long to, I'm always there to offer smiles, love, and a listening ear. She's my beautiful soulmate, and I hate that she's hurting.
And so many positives have come to light because of her situation. Even my sister, who was kind of stuck in life, wants to get into uni with the aim that one day she will have a job helping trans people, because there's not many people out there for you.
**More specifically, fiancée, since I proposed to her last week and, amazingly, she said yes! :) :) :) (I wrote about it in my thread in the SO's area.)
Awwwwwe this is so sweet! Congratulations to both you and your SO. Kitty you are a jewel in the rough. May you both have a fabulous marriage, and a very happy life together. :eusa_clap:
Allie :icon_flower:
Thank you! We're both over the moon, which is fantastic because she's been having such a rough time with GD.
Quote from: Kitty. on July 18, 2014, 02:51:53 PM
Thank you! We're both over the moon, which is fantastic because she's been having such a rough time with GD.
I only wish my ex-SO could have read your story before we broke up after 4 and a half years together. Maybe it would have helped her understand what she evidently couldn't. Oh she knew I was IS and trans. I told her my story when we became serious about each other. She just couldn't understand, or just didn't want to, certain aspects of my dysphoria and I felt used over our last 6 months together until it finally came to a head 2 months ago, and I'd had enough.
Again, congratulations to you and your SO.
Allie :icon_flower:
I think you nailed it in these few lines.
But what keeps amazing me is how little the LGB part of LGBT know about us, in some cases I've had a much easier time explaining to straight cis people what it is to be transgender than the lesbian, gay and bisexual people in my life. I think we need a lot more exposure in media and within our own communities so that one day sex-ed in every school will include a section about being transgender.
Quote from: Annabella on July 12, 2014, 03:31:11 PM
Putting on my neurology/biology/evopsych hat for a moment to explore a single angle on this question:
I think one thing that makes life very difficult for trans people is that there was a selective pressure in human evolution toward being able to clearly identify gender. The differences in build and facial structure between men and women for example is there to signal to the opposite sex "hey, if we copulate, we can have babies and won't that make our selfish genes happy!".
When someone transitions, it is very difficult to go from one gender to the other completely, and people (uneducated people) experience something akin to the uncanny valley when looking at them. The uncanny valley comes out of robotics research, and basically it is the sensation of discomfort that increases the more human a robot becomes until it passes a certain threshold where it appears "quite human" to them. It comes (from what I have read) from being geared to identify illness in others.
When a person is transitioning genders the same thing occurs. There is a point where the ambiguity of gender will cause discomfort in an uneducated person.
Now I know I said a lot about evolution, but I would be remiss not to add this very salient point:
A person's perception of where that uncanny valley between male and female is has a great deal to do with their socialization. They are taught growing up what signs of fertility and gender are prevalent in that culture and they subconsciously use that when evaluating others. This is why, I think, the visibility of transgender/transexual individuals in media is so important.
Once a person is exposed to enough images of transgender people, their perception of the boundaries between male and female presentation becomes more blurred, and they become more accepting subconsciously of the grey areas in-between. This is why I find the hollywood obsession with extreme archetypical presentations of gender to be harmful. Movies and television are one of the primary ways that young people are taught to view gender in society. I won't say many good things about Japanese cinema, but I will say they treat transgender people a lot more favorably and frequently than the US media.
Of course, I could be wrong about a lot of that, and I am always happy to be corrected.
If I were to give a scientific/psycological answer it would be that, we can't hide from the fact that transgenderness is technically a disorder. A mess up in the way our genes where put together when born, and too much of the wrong hormones. The most of people don't get a "dissorder" therefore they don't understand what it would feel like biologically.
To most people, seeing one crossing over to the other sex is completely mindblowing due to the fact that they don't think that way.
But when it comes to acceptance or discrimination, this would be the same thing as racism in a way. Nobody is born racist, or a discriminator. It's that as growing up, mostly influenced by parents or else society, depending on who one is with, will train their mind weather to accept or not seeing something like this.
Scientifically speaking of course.
I haven't read through the thread, just read the OP. From my experience, people gain an understanding with the more exposure they have, and the more likable you are. I also think it's easier to understand if the person in question is more "conforming" (for a lack of better word atm) to the gender roles and social norms of the gender (male or female only) they are setting out to show.
The annoying part of being a MtF is that females have a pretty strict "code" compared to guys, we are expected to speak about, and react, in a very specific way (females as a whole, not just MtFs). We have a pretty strict dress code, vocabulary, and we have a balance between being meek and assertive to tightrope walk. On top of that, we have to overcome the damage to our bodies that testosterone has done (voice, bone structure, etc). These factors make it harder to blend into an expected pattern of behavior that females are judged on.
I think exposure and civic pride may have a bit to do with it, too. People who are positively exposed to gender variant people and those who are proud to be a part of an accepting society are obviously going to be more willing to understand and accept people who are not exposed to transgender people and those who live in an area which would rather not understand. I'm sure I wouldn't do as well in say, small town West Texas as I would in where I'm at now.
Here's a story I've just come across--written by a man who is fully supportive of his transgender son.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-greenwood/my-trans-son-standing-tall_b_5568825.html?utm_hp_ref=transgender
This is one thing he says about his struggle to understand what was going on with his son:
Maybe the real reason that transgender issues are tougher to talk about than gay and lesbian ones is that it is almost impossible to separate the idea of gender from what we have between our legs.
As I said earlier, I think cispeople tend to be very "body-centred". That is, for them the difference between male and female seems to be primarily (if not exclusively) physical. Yes, people will talk about the differences between the male and female psychologies, but cispeople don't seem to see the psychology as being on a par with the physique. It seems they take the psychology as given, once they've determined what the physique is.
It may simply be a question of familiarization: they need to learn the difference between sex and gender and to see that the psychology is every bit as important a factor (if not more) as the physique in determining what someone is.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 12, 2014, 09:39:24 PM
The problem is, we as humans can only understand things through the vantage point of our own limited experiences.
Whenever someone describes something to us, we're always mentally comparing it to things that we ourselves have gone through in order to understand it and empathize with it.
Cis people do not experience dysphoria. Therefore they're always trying to compare it to things that they have felt.
So, well, it's no wonder that we're so often criticized by cis-men for being deviant sexual fetishists, because that's their experience with feminine things, is being sexually attracted to them. It's why women criticize trans men for just trying to transition in order to gain male privilege, because they have likely experienced frustration with being female due to social problems, so they're assuming it's the same. These people have no reference point. They have never felt the feeling that their own body was wrong, or that their social role was wrong. They're trying to filter these things through their own experiences with the opposite sex.
I know I did the same thing when I first hit puberty. I actually thought that I was heterosexual, because, well, other guys liked looking at girls too. So I assumed that all guys were doing the same thing as me, looking at women and imagining that they were them. I thought that this was what made heterosexual relationships, was men wondering what it was like to be women, and women wondering what it was like to be men, and that's why they were so fascinated with each-other. I was completely shocked when I learned that other people really weren't doing that, they were just looking at the opposite sex and imagining having sex with them, or simply just turned on by the view.
Again... it's all trying to understand other's emotions based on only your own limited experiences.
I agree, we can only see the worls from our eyes.
Probably the reasons for blanket acceptablity is as varied as we are and the reason just as complex but based on your quote above.
Another news story I've come across with good news and puzzling news.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/07/20/canada-catholic-school-district-creates-first-transgender-student-policy/
The good news is that some Catholic schools are allowing trans pupils to go to school as transpeople. The puzzling news is the statement that the Archdiocese in question issued while announcing its new policy:
"The Catholic faith, informed by biblical theology, teaches that the body and soul of the human being are so united that one's sexual identity is rooted in one's biological identity as male or female.
"Thus, in Catholic teaching, one's sexual identity is considered 'a reality deeply inscribed in man and woman'.
"This means that the Catholic Church teaches that gender is given by God and that the body reveals the divine plan. As such, humans are not free to choose or change their sexual identity.
"The Catholic school has a responsibility for the spiritual development of its students. Gender transitioning is contrary to Catholic teaching, and therefore the Catholic school cannot support any transitioning actions."
No need to point out the mistakes made here. It is discouraging to note, however, that the Church, for all its resources, cannot come to an understanding of what ->-bleeped-<- is.
The irony is that they state that they "cannot support any transitioning activities." In the midst of their confusion, they fail to understand that changing your name, your pronouns and your dress is in fact a "transitioning activity".
I don't remember which article/s, but I read somewhere that with some cis men, they consider MTF transgenders an insult to their masculinity. I dunno how true that is, but I've saw it in more than one article. To me this opinion seems a bit shallow, but again, I dunno.
As Carrie Liz states: "Cis people do not experience dysphoria. Therefore they're always trying to compare it to things that they have felt." I think this statement for the most part sums the problem up.
Just my $.02
Allie :icon_flower:
Quote from: Allyda on July 21, 2014, 12:43:04 PM
I don't remember which article/s, but I read somewhere that with some cis men, they consider MTF transgenders an insult to their masculinity. I dunno how true that is, but I've saw it in more than one article. To me this opinion seems a bit shallow, but again, I dunno.
As Carrie Liz states: "Cis people do not experience dysphoria. Therefore they're always trying to compare it to things that they have felt." I think this statement for the most part sums the problem up.
Just my $.02
Allie :icon_flower:
I like this post.
Why is something as theoretically strong as the concept of masculinity in itself so fragile? I find the irony laughable and sad at the same time.
Thank's Jill. I myself can point out two cases I know this to be a factor: my ex next door neighbor and my friend Reaver's father. Both showed an aversion for my transition I haven't seen before nor since. But then again both of them are drunks so to me their opinions are worthless, lol!
Allie :icon_flower:
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on July 19, 2014, 05:49:32 AM
I haven't read through the thread, just read the OP. From my experience, people gain an understanding with the more exposure they have, and the more likable you are. I also think it's easier to understand if the person in question is more "conforming" (for a lack of better word atm) to the gender roles and social norms of the gender (male or female only) they are setting out to show.
The annoying part of being a MtF is that females have a pretty strict "code" compared to guys, we are expected to speak about, and react, in a very specific way (females as a whole, not just MtFs). We have a pretty strict dress code, vocabulary, and we have a balance between being meek and assertive to tightrope walk. On top of that, we have to overcome the damage to our bodies that testosterone has done (voice, bone structure, etc). These factors make it harder to blend into an expected pattern of behavior that females are judged on.
You make some interesting points about how we fit into society. One of our problems is that most of our community spends several years transitioning and then they work like heck to blend in. So, most cis-people's concept of trans people is shaped by the only ones they've been exposed to...the awkward transitioner and Jerry Springer (or substitute any modern or recent show that uses the guy in a dress to drive ratings).
I think you're also spot on when you talk about the strict code with women, and how that can make or break our ability to blend in. It's interesting that most discussions around here about that subject -- or passing in general -- are usually dominated by the "don't worry about it, you be you" narrative. And I don't think that's helpful.
Just throwing this out there as well:
A lot of people are just uninformed.
Like, back in high school, my mom met someone who she suspected was trans, and she muttered about how trans women were a "caricature of women," and "trying too hard to be female," and she seriously thought, based on the limited (mis)information that she got about trans people from the media, that they were just men who always liked feminine things, and so they arbitrarily decided to be female so that they could do those feminine interests. So she basically saw trans women, as a lot of people do, as just gay men pretending to be women.
I was misinformed as a teenager too, as a lot of us were. I didn't know about HRT. I didn't know that it was possible to get a (more or less) completely female body from hormones alone, no surgery required. I didn't know that you didn't have to have childhood dysphoria to be trans. I didn't know that you could be trans despite having very tomboyish interests. And I didn't know that there were trans people across the whole gender-expression spectrum, I thought that every trans woman had to be hyper-feminine.
Youtube was what changed this for me, where I finally got to see trans women tell their own stories instead of biased news programs which constantly sensationalized it. I realized it was common, and it wasn't the big flipping deal everyone made it out to be.
And guess what? My mom, who would have been one of those people who spoke out against trans people and didn't really understand why they'd want to be women, learned, because of me. Because I got to explain to her first-hand, in my own words, what it felt like. And she was willing to listen, and so she learned. She's even told me first-hand, "I never understood trans people until you started telling me about it. Now I do."
So that's the real problem here, is just misinformation... the media constantly sensationalizing the transition process, framing trans narratives as a sideshow attraction ("Hurry, hurry, hurry, step right up! See the amazing woman who was born a man but went through surgery to remove her penis! Whooo! You'll be amazed! You'll be horrified! Step right up!") [and this is why trans men are so invisible in the media, because it's a lot less "sensational" for a woman to want to be a man, since our culture has a big misogyny problem.] That is the issue, just that trans people never really had the opportunity to tell their own stories before. But now that we do have that chance, things are quickly changing.
A lot of people simply never have the chance to hear from an actual trans person who they are, what they're like, and what their gender means to them. And for a lot of people, it's simply a matter of talking to us and knowing us where they realize for the first time that we're not those perverse female-appropriating crossdressing homosexual fa****s that the media makes us out to be, we're just normal people trying to live our lives.
Information is our ally. The real question is just whether people are willing to listen or not. And to most people's credit, they will listen. It might take them a while, and it might take a long mental battle where they start at denial but slowly move toward acceptance if the message is repeated enough times. There are always a few stubborn people, who once they get set in their ways they'll never change their minds. But for a lot of others, it's just a matter of getting out there and having a chance for them to meet us and learn that we're pretty normal people, and maybe giving them some time to come to terms with it because it challenges their cultural assumptions so much.
I'm pretty optimistic about this. I think we're winning the information battle right now thanks to the visibility of activists like Janet Mock and Laverne Cox. And where being trans used to be a social death sentence if anyone found out, now it's quickly becoming acceptable, especially among well-informed people who are willing to listen and learn. (We have a LONG way to go before we've changed the culture at large, though. Uneducated people who are uninterested in learning still as a whole treat us like freaks. But then again they're still treating gay people like freaks too, so good luck with that. When people are unwilling to learn, it takes FOREVER, and a HUGE change in cultural perceptions, pretty much every other person they know being okay with it, before they'll change.)
to be honest my perception of trans people was blown apart just by the first day I read the posts on Susan's . It was a major shift in my thinking. I've been trans all my life but was in so much denial trying to be the male I was supposed to be. I worked for 5 years in an LGBT orientated neighborhood and saw a small spectrum of the trans community compared to what is found on Susan's. I never talked to a transgender until Susan's. It totally surprised me.
Quote from: stephaniec on July 23, 2014, 01:20:26 PM
to be honest my perception of trans people was blown apart just by the first day I read the posts on Susan's . It was a major shift in my thinking. I've been trans all my life but was in so much denial trying to be the male I was supposed to be. I worked for 5 years in an LGBT orientated neighborhood and saw a small spectrum of the trans community compared to what is found on Susan's. I never talked to a transgender until Susan's. It totally surprised me.
During one of my adopted fathers attempts to find out "why I looked so feminine," as he put it when I was 10, while he and my adopted Mom were speaking with the doctor in another room, I had a wonderful nurse sit down beside me, wipe the tears off my face, and explain to me what being transgender was, and showed me a fashion magazine with the story of a British supermodel who was transgender and had transitioned. Long story short, from that day forward I read anything I could get my hands on about her, and concerning MTF transgenders and my IS condition. As for actually talking to a transgender person for the first time, that came a little later on after I was imancipated and away from my adopted father.
Allie :icon_flower:
Like most people, they rely on preconceptions and stereotypes. If they gained knowledge, they could grow to understand, that can go for most things though. They could also only understand if it or something similar happened to them.
I think that since we're such a small sample of the population there is a lack of familiarity.
That and a lot of bigoted people are weighing in and insisting that our existence is just plain wrong :(
Quote from: Allyda on July 23, 2014, 05:44:18 PM
During one of my adopted fathers attempts to find out "why I looked so feminine," as he put it when I was 10, while he and my adopted Mom were speaking with the doctor in another room, I had a wonderful nurse sit down beside me, wipe the tears off my face, and explain to me what being transgender was, and showed me a fashion magazine with the story of a British supermodel who was transgender and had transitioned. Long story short, from that day forward I read anything I could get my hands on about her, and concerning MTF transgenders and my IS condition. As for actually talking to a transgender person for the first time, that came a little later on after I was imancipated and away from my adopted father.
Allie :icon_flower:
that was really a very beautiful thing that nurse did for you. so sorry for your pain. I had good parents who did their best , but really didn't know what I was going through
Quote from: Allyda on July 23, 2014, 05:44:18 PM
I had a wonderful nurse sit down beside me, wipe the tears off my face, and explain to me what being transgender was, and showed me a fashion magazine with the story of a British supermodel who was transgender and had transitioned.
Allie :icon_flower:
Fabulous! This is exactly what transkids need--somebody to explain to them what they are. Ciskids go through the same process of self-discovery that we do, that is, copping onto what their gender identity is, but they have lots of people telling them in so many ways what they are. Now of course a lot of what they're told is going to be a right nuisance to them, either in the short or the long term. But at least they know what they are. We transpeople on the other hand have to figure it out for ourselves. And that's not easy, given that everything you're told amounts to telling you what you're not, rather than what you are.
Quote from: Foxglove on July 24, 2014, 07:53:17 AM
Fabulous! This is exactly what transkids need--somebody to explain to them what they are. Ciskids go through the same process of self-discovery that we do, that is, copping onto what their gender identity is, but they have lots of people telling them in so many ways what they are. Now of course a lot of what they're told is going to be a right nuisance to them, either in the short or the long term. But at least they know what they are. We transpeople on the other hand have to figure it out for ourselves. And that's not easy, given that everything you're told amounts to telling you what you're not, rather than what you are.
yes, very true
Quote from: Foxglove on July 24, 2014, 07:53:17 AM
Fabulous! This is exactly what transkids need--somebody to explain to them what they are. Ciskids go through the same process of self-discovery that we do, that is, copping onto what their gender identity is, but they have lots of people telling them in so many ways what they are. Now of course a lot of what they're told is going to be a right nuisance to them, either in the short or the long term. But at least they know what they are. We transpeople on the other hand have to figure it out for ourselves. And that's not easy, given that everything you're told amounts to telling you what you're not, rather than what you are.
I was so appreciative of that young nurse. Her doing that dispelled some of my confusion, and validated for me I wasn't some freak. That I really was a girl. I just wish my adopted father had listened.
Allie :icon_flower: