Question for those on testosterone, did you get really sluggish and start putting on a ton of weight (like 50 pounds in 5 months, fat not muscle)? My doc's kept up with my levels and I'm doing fine, but she didn't know what the tiredness and weight gain might be from. I'm not eating more than I used to, and I've changed from eating "typical American" to eating mostly salads, soups, yogurt, nuts, and fruit. I exercise regularly. But I'm extremely tired, and I've been sleeping more (almost 7 hours a night as opposed to 3-4 like I used to) while becoming even more exhausted.
Like I said, my doctor isn't sure what's wrong, just told me to keep eating healthy and exercising...has anybody else had this experience and found a solution?
I don't have an answer on T, but those symptoms could also be caused by low thyroid, low iron, or sleep apnea. Among other things.
I imagine your doc did blood work that would check the thyroid and iron, though.
Seconding, Mac - I would ask how much are you eating? I know that you said you're not eating any MORE than you used to, but you've changed your diet and I want to know what the portion sizes are and how often throughout the day you're eating.
Going food-by-food from what you listed, some things to consider.
1. Eating "mostly" (listed items)? What else is there, how often, and how much?
2. Salads - what's in those salads? Compare a salad consisting entirely of vegetables, to a salad with things like cheese, croutons, bacon bits, dressing, etc.
3. Soups - again, what's in it? Some soups are much more calorie-dense than others.
4. Yogurt - if we're talking those little pre-flavored yogurt cups, there's usually lots of added sugar in those.
5. Nuts - very calorie-dense, it's easy to eat hundreds of calories of nuts.
6. Fruit - again there's a range of calorie denseness in that food group.
Other questions: What are you drinking?
Can you be more specific about "exercising regularly"? It's possible you're wearing yourself out with, say, tons of cardio, but eating back the calories burned and then some due to being hungrier from all the exercise.
Are you getting enough protein?
The gist here, a lot of people make the mistake of thinking if they eat foods they consider categorically "healthy" then considering portions/calories goes out the window. There might be a medical problem at work here, but generally speaking when people gain weight it's because they're consuming more calories than their body needs, and it's possible to do that eating 100% "healthy" foods.
By the way, 7 hours of sleep a night is not an excessive amount of sleep at all given it's recommended most adults need 7-8 hours per night.
Thanks for the help guys, here's some of the food info:
I eat small meals about 4-5 times a day. I have one cup of greek nonfat yogurt in the morning, often with some sliced almonds and granola over the top. Between lunch and breakfast I have a half cup or less of almonds. At lunch, the salads usually consist of spinach or lettuce with tomatoes, cranberries, various nuts, and sometimes a bit of chicken or croutons, though I could cut those out if need be, the salads about 8-10 ounces of food total. The soups are vegetable soups with low sodium and not any of the thick chowder types. Second snack is another half cup or less of almonds, dinner is usually the soup or some yogurt with strawberries or blueberries, maybe a banana. I'm always starving and have been eating much less than how much I used to eat, in which I never gained any weight.
When I say "mostly" I admit that I sometimes cheat and eat a bit of fish every few weeks, or have a plate of thai curry with some tofu in it.
I drink mostly water though I do have a cup of coffee once a day, I've been replacing that with green tea with no sugar. I also drink unsweetened red ruby grapefruit juice every couple days or so.
Exercise: I do about 30 minutes on an exercise bike per day (which reads as about 500 calories burned though I don't know that I trust those things), it's not flat out exhausting but it's all I have time for, and I try to alternate lifting weights every other day.
If it helps any, I have also been getting plunging lows in mood swings, tingling in my limbs, major muscle aches and back pain, and my eyes lose focus a lot. I tend to forget what I'm doing or where I am. Thanks again for taking the time to help me out with this!
Has your doc checked your thyroid levels???
She did prior to my first shot I believe, seeing as my dad has thyroid problems, but I've asked her to please send me a new test that includes checking my thyroid just in case - I had to leave a message, so I'm hoping she'll send it along soon.
Are you sure you are eating enough? Especially in the morning? That doesn't sound like a whole lot. Try some eggs or something. It might be that you are eating so little that your body thinks it is starving and trying to store the calories you consume.
Breakfast should be your biggest and most important meal. Followed by lunch. Dinner should be kept small.
Your symptoms might also be from lack of calorie intake. Talk to your doctor and ask her to help you with a proper diet.
I suggest tracking your meals for a few days to see where you're at calorie-wise.
Also, seems like a lot of nuts. Not sure. I would guess getting your protein from more varied sources would fe good.
Are you often too cold or too hot? Are your skin or eyes particularly dry? Heart palpitations?
Your diet might not be getting you enough vitamin B12.
Vitamin D is another very common deficiency.
Quote from: Samantha007 on July 23, 2014, 02:40:00 AM
How is eating less supposed to explain why you put on weight?
Because, opposite to popular belief, eating less doesn't always = losing weight. In fact, it can have the opposite effect when your body goes into starvation mode - holding onto every iota of fat because it believes it isn't getting what it needs from food intake.
Quote from: fatalerror on July 22, 2014, 03:06:33 PM
Thanks for the help guys, here's some of the food info:
I eat small meals about 4-5 times a day. I have one cup of greek nonfat yogurt in the morning, often with some sliced almonds and granola over the top. Between lunch and breakfast I have a half cup or less of almonds. At lunch, the salads usually consist of spinach or lettuce with tomatoes, cranberries, various nuts, and sometimes a bit of chicken or croutons, though I could cut those out if need be, the salads about 8-10 ounces of food total. The soups are vegetable soups with low sodium and not any of the thick chowder types. Second snack is another half cup or less of almonds, dinner is usually the soup or some yogurt with strawberries or blueberries, maybe a banana. I'm always starving and have been eating much less than how much I used to eat, in which I never gained any weight.
Forget how much the food weighs. 28.4g of almonds is 163 calories. 36g of lettuce is 5 calories.
According to Google half a cup of almonds is 46 grams, and 264 calories. (By the way, invest in a digital food scale and get in a habit of measuring out by weight, it's more accurate and very easy/convenient when you get used to it). So you have a half cup here, half cup there, unspecified amounts on yogurt and salad. That could be upwards of 600 calories a day from nuts. You're still hungry because stomachs don't care about calories. Calories are the most important part of weight management, feeling full makes the process less miserable, so calorie-dense foods like nuts won't necessarily be your friend.
Smaller meals also might not be your friend. Why not try 2-3 larger meals focusing on bulkier/less calorie-dense foods instead? Aside from the granola, I'm not seeing any mention of grains here and because they swell with liquid they can be very filling. For example a hot bowl of rice with a crapload of vegetables, and a big glass of water or other calorie-free beverage of choice (say plain coffee or tea). Or a more precise example: Put a bowl on food scale. 40g of plain oats (150 calories), 1/2 cup 2% milk (65 calories), 37g fresh or frozen blueberries (21.25 calories), microwave. 236.25 calories - that's less than half a cup of almonds in calories, but instead of a few nuts you have a delicious hot bowl of cereal. Or double all those (80g oats, 1 cup 2% milk, 74g blueberries), 472.5 calories and it's a
big, delicious hot bowl of cereal. You could add in some eggwhites with loads of spices, have quite a satisfying meal and still end up under 600 calories (maybe you can guess what I have for breakfast fairly often).
To put that in perspective you need at least a rough idea of your caloric needs (there's calculators online for this). But just for example let's say you need 1800 calories to maintain your current weight, any less than that creating a caloric deficit (thus weight loss over time). 1800/3 = 600 so a breakfast of under 500 calories would be very reasonable if eating 3 meals a day.
Have you had your vitamin levels checked out to make sure there's not a deficiency present? Speaking of grains, a lot of breakfast cereals are vitamin-enriched. Not ideal but handy.
Somebody mentioned "starvation mode", this is a very informative page on that subject: http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/starvation-mode/
Just throwing this out, but I had similar symptoms about four years ago when I became very ill with GodKnowsWhat [my physician did test after test and couldn't figure it out, although we did find out that my body was already pumping out a lot of testosterone on its own.] I was exhausted all the time. Despite the fact that I could barely eat, I wasn't losing weight. I began taking a multivitamin - Geritol, to be exact - and within a week I felt loads better. Two weeks in and I almost felt like my old self. A bottle of a hundred tablets costs around $7-10 at most stores. Take it with a meal so it will absorb better. Your urine will look fluorescent, but trust me, it isn't. It's just the excess B vitamins.
Dude thank you guys a ton for all this advice. I talked to a few coworkers who recommended foods like nuts in place of meats and yogurt and granola for energy in the morning. Read the article about starvation mode and downloaded a calorie counter app to find out how much to intake if I want to lose weight fast. Going to put that to good use starting today and see just how much I'm really taking in. I gotta keep up with vitamins more too, I temd to neglect them. Thanks again, will see what results I get from it.
Glad you read the article, that guy's stuff is very informative. Don't get in a rush/go overboard, remember whatever you do has to be sustainable. No point doing extreme things to lose weight fast and then gaining it back. Find something that works for you and keep at it, you'll get there.
Quote from: fatalerrorI talked to a few coworkers who recommended foods like nuts in place of meats and yogurt and granola for energy in the morning.
Coworkers aren't necessarily the best source of information on health-related stuff. ;) Nuts are "healthy" in that they don't contain saturated fats, but overall, they're fat-intensive -- not what you need for weight loss. And granola is loaded with fat and sugar. It doesn't matter whether it's high fructose corn syrup, honey, or evaporated cane juice (the current euphemism for cane sugar); it's all sugar, and not nutritious -- just empty calories. (One way manufacturers trick people about sugar content is to use several different sweeteners, so that each one is lower on the list of ingredients. >:() There's nothing wrong with meat, in moderation and chosen carefully -- skinless chicken breasts, fish, and low-fat cuts of beef and pork are all excellent sources of protein. They have the added benefit of ensuring that you're getting enough iron and all the amino acids your body needs -- while it's possible to do this on a vegetarian diet, it takes some effort and knowledge.
Quote from: blinkDon't get in a rush/go overboard, remember whatever you do has to be sustainable. No point doing extreme things to lose weight fast and then gaining it back.
This, in spades. In the long term, "dieting" is counter-productive, IMHO. For most people, counting calories isn't something they're going to sustain over a lifetime. Drastically restricting what one eats, with the idea that it's only for a limited time, usually just leads to "cheating," and almost guarantees regaining the weight once a person resumes their "normal" diet; and as others have noted, in the long run major calorie restriction lowers the metabolic rate and makes the body
want to store fat.
Mo' bettah to think of it as just eating a healthy diet: lots of whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and legumes (beans, lentils, etc. contain almost no fat, are loaded with complex carbs and fiber, and are very filling), moderate intake of non- or low-fat dairy products, small portions of low fat meats now and then, and avoiding processed foods. A diet like this is sustainable over a lifetime and also has major health benefits, not the least of which is that it's easier to lose weight on a low-fat diet.
It does help a lot to learn to cook -- even if your time is limited, you can make a big batch of something like vegetarian chili or grilled chicken breasts once or twice a week, and have healthy "fast food" on hand when you want it.
Quote from: Tysilio on July 30, 2014, 10:54:33 AM
Coworkers aren't necessarily the best source of information on health-related stuff. ;)
Well, unless your co-workers are nutritionists...heh heh...but yeah, I agree. Co-workers aren't always reliable sources when it comes to dietary stuff. And really, you have to sometimes experiment to find out what works best for you. Everybody's body is different.
QuoteIt does help a lot to learn to cook -- even if your time is limited, you can make a big batch of something like vegetarian chili or grilled chicken breasts once or twice a week, and have healthy "fast food" on hand when you want it.
This a thousand times! When you cook your own food, you know exactly what's going into the dishes you create. It will be fresher, taste better, and you'll have a sense of pride knowing that you crafted a meal yourself. Also, I highly advise watching any and all cooking shows made by Alton Brown. He not only shows you how to cook, but he explains the science - and sometimes the history - of the foods and dishes he's preparing. I learned so much from watching
Good Eats, and now I'm subscribed to his youtube channel.
I'm new to the forum and looking around. I saw that you drink grapefruit juice fairly often. I understand that grapefruit juice increases estrogen and can mess with metabolism. Here's the generic wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefruit_juice There are a lot more scientific links that talk about this, too.
Chris
Have to disagree that low-fat is necessarily better for weight loss. Many studies don't support that idea.
http://authoritynutrition.com/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets/
"Healthy" fats like those from dairy, fish, olives, and nuts help provide satiety (although as I mentioned earlier, it's hard to feel full on just nuts). In theory, if people switch to low-fat versions of everything - provided there's no added sugar or other crap - they reduce overall caloric intake. In practice, when people eat low-fat versions of things they tend to eat more of it, and eat more overall.
Absolutely agree that it's better to focus on eating a well balanced diet than count calories (although it can be useful initially to learn portion sizes). Cutting out processed food instantly ditches added sugar and questionable filler ingredients. Eating processed, pre-packaged foods is expensive too. On that note, for folks that like yogurt, look for an Indian or "Indo-Pak" grocery store in your area. I get 5lbs of plain yogurt there for a price that would buy a few tiny, bunch-of-sugar-added yogurt cups elsewhere. Stir in some frozen or fresh berries, tasty, cheaper, less sugar, no filler ingredients.
Learning to cook is a great idea. Doesn't have to be complicated, if you learn to spice things it's easy to throw a few things together and get something delicious. Bonus, some studies suggest certain spices help weight management/fat loss, like ginger, garlic, and hot peppers. I buy fresh ginger, peel it, and freeze it. Easy to grate some into food. Fresh garlic is easy to include in food if you can find containers of peeled cloves, keep in the fridge, wash one and mince with a fork. If you can't find pre-peeled cloves, peel a bunch ahead of time yourself and refrigerate.
QuoteHave to disagree that low-fat is necessarily better for weight loss. Many studies don't support that idea.
http://authoritynutrition.com/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets/
"Healthy" fats like those from dairy, fish, olives, and nuts help provide satiety (although as I mentioned earlier, it's hard to feel full on just nuts). In theory, if people switch to low-fat versions of everything - provided there's no added sugar or other crap - they reduce overall caloric intake. In practice, when people eat low-fat versions of things they tend to eat more of it, and eat more overall.
Yes, "low-fat" versions of things are mostly a bad idea -- and they usually taste like crap. I like non-fat yogurt fine, and I can tolerate 2% milk... otherwise, no. But fats = 9 calories/gram, carbs and proteins = 4 calories/gram. So it makes sense to do things like remove the skin from chicken, eat lower-fat alternatives (breasts instead of thighs, for instance), and use lemon juice or a little olive oil and vinegar on salad instead of store-bought dressing. It's a way to reduce caloric intake without depriving oneself of things one likes. And foods that are high in fiber -- whole grains, most fruits and vegetables, beans and lentils -- also provide satiety, especially if one waits 10-15 minutes before going back for more: your brain takes a while to decide that you're full. Do that, and cut portion sizes a bit, and you're ahead of the game right there.
Quote from: blink on August 03, 2014, 10:40:37 AMBonus, some studies suggest certain spices help weight management/fat loss, like ginger, garlic, and hot peppers.
Links or it didn't happen. :laugh:
But seriously, I wish this worked for me. I consume so much garlic, ginger, peppers of all sorts just about every day, and yet I'm still fifteen stone.
Quote from: Amadeus on August 09, 2014, 12:36:30 AM
Links or it didn't happen. :laugh:
But seriously, I wish this worked for me. I consume so much garlic, ginger, peppers of all sorts just about every day, and yet I'm still fifteen stone.
You got it.
Anti-obesity action of gingerol: effect on lipid profile, insulin, leptin, amylase and lipase in male obese rats induced by a high-fat diet.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24615565
Eight weeks of supplementation with a multi-ingredient weight loss product enhances body composition, reduces hip and waist girth, and increases energy levels in overweight men and women.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23601452
Comparative evaluation of the efficacy of ginger and orlistat on obesity management, pancreatic lipase and liver peroxisomal catalase enzyme in male albino rats.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23329526
Antiobese effects of capsaicin-chitosan microsphere (CCMS) in obese rats induced by high fat diet.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24479662
Could capsaicinoids help to support weight management? A systematic review and meta-analysis of energy intake data.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24246368
Improvement in insulin resistance and favourable changes in plasma inflammatory adipokines after weight loss associated with two months' consumption of a combination of bioactive food ingredients in overweight subjects.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23271695
Combined medium-chain triglyceride and chilli feeding increases diet-induced thermogenesis in normal-weight humans.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23179202
Antiobesity effects of a sulfur compound thiacremonone mediated via down-regulation of serum triglyceride and glucose levels and lipid accumulation in the liver of db/db mice.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22228551
It's possible your dietary inclusion of these
does have an effect. This sort of thing is only one factor.
Sorry I've not responded sooner. And I thank you for linking to all of these articles. I've read through a couple already and they do look interesting. Perhaps I'm not consuming enough ginger, garlic, or peppers. My housemate and I will just have to have more. If we ever get snogged again, it'll be a miracle. Ha!
Quote from: Amadeus on August 18, 2014, 12:52:46 AM
Sorry I've not responded sooner. And I thank you for linking to all of these articles. I've read through a couple already and they do look interesting. Perhaps I'm not consuming enough ginger, garlic, or peppers. My housemate and I will just have to have more. If we ever get snogged again, it'll be a miracle. Ha!
Don't sweat it, and you're welcome.
Haha, better chances of that if you're dating someone who also eats lots of spicy food. Hard to complain about someone having vampire-repellant breath when you do too.
I've been keeping myself at 2-3 meals a day and under 1500 calories a day, and I'm still gaining weight. I'm eating mostly fruit and dark green vegetables with small amounts of fish and chicken, and some brown rice or whole wheat breads. Gonna get my blood checked next week...nothing seems to be working. Thanks for all the advice though.
only limiting yourself to 1500 calories a day will never work if you're also working out.
you need lots of varied protein. make sure you eat fish, meat, eggs, beans, all kinds of things with protein. or buy some protein shake. your muscles will be screaming in pain if you only break them down but never give them anything to build themselves up again with.
you should give yourself regular one-day breaks from dieting. remind your body that a full day's worth of calories is easily available, to avoid going into starvation mode, and keep up a normal metabolism. everything will go slower if you only ever starve yourself, and you won't be losing any weight like that.
your body needs fat. your brain needs fat. 1/3 of your brain consists of omega-3 fat. or at least it's supposed to, so make sure you eat fish often. unless your diet already has the necessary amount of the very few vegetables that produce this particular type of fatty acids. nuts contain lots of fat, but you really need the fats that you get from fish and meat (or coconuts/shea) as well. cholesterol is necessary for your body to function properly, and it isn't damaging if you eat it in moderate amounts. it's only damaging if you get too much in your blood flow, and add some (probably sugar or wheat induced) inflammations to that. and, fish oils make your blood flow better, so if you just eat all the different types of fats... you should get pretty well balanced.
a norwegian study has found that people who drink whole fat milk are generally healthier than those who drink low fat milk. it probably has more to do with life style than amount of fat in the milk. those who drink whole milk also eat whole grain, fresh fish, meat from healthier animals, home grown or organic vegetables etc. and they run and walk more.
make sure you get enough vitamin d, it's a necessary hormone not only to your body, but also to your brain and moods. enough iron is necessary. found in beets, red cabbage, broccoli, spinach, liver, blood (that can be eaten too) etc. vitamin supplements are the easier way to make sure you get all that you need, but you really should learn how to get it all through your diet as well.
you actually need some salt in your diet, how else are you going to keep hydrated, when salt is what keeps the water in.
fruit juices should be avoided. some carrot and beet juice in a glass of water, will give you lots of necessary nutrients, and can keep you going for much longer than any fruit juices can. fruits should generally be avoided, berries and vegetables are the way to go.
anyway. if you try to diet, you should either have a really good knowledge of nutrition, or ask an expert for help. dieting the wrong way can make you really sick, and might not help you lose weight at all.
Quote from: fatalerror on September 04, 2014, 09:11:12 AM
I've been keeping myself at 2-3 meals a day and under 1500 calories a day, and I'm still gaining weight. I'm eating mostly fruit and dark green vegetables with small amounts of fish and chicken, and some brown rice or whole wheat breads. Gonna get my blood checked next week...nothing seems to be working. Thanks for all the advice though.
It's been a little over two weeks. Enquiring minds want to know how you're doing and if your blood work showed anything unusual.
I didn't read all the comments but it actually soundsle some blood sugar/ diabetes or PCOS symptoms? especially vision disturbances I have been monitored for diabetes for several years and they said that is one huge sign to look out for.
Please keep us updated when you can. :)
I'm in year 2 of a 3 year dietetics program, and I have SO many questions. I'm not going to ask them all but:
What is your height, weight, age? You need to know your calorie reqs before you start messing with them.
If you're eating "mostly fruit" and whole grains you're giving your body a whole lot of carbohydrates and not a lot of anything else.
The minimum RDA is 50 grams of protein per day, which is about 8 ounces of meat (imagine a cup full). That's bare minimum for someone who does NO activity per day. A better rule of thumb is 0.8 grams per lb of bodyweight for someone who is active (even 1 gram per lb is fine).
If you don't consume enough protein, your body is going to start breaking down your muscles to feed your organ function. Weakness and fatigue are common symptoms of protein malnutrition.
I'd suggest getting bloodwork done to double check your thyroid hormones, inflammation markers, serum albumin/pre albumin, and a blood count to rule out an underlying condition, but a Registered Dietitian can help you from a nutrition standpoint. They're often covered under insurance if you get a doctor referral.
Doctors and nurses don't get much nutrition education so if your doctor is no help, ask for an expert.
Quote from: Polo on October 05, 2014, 12:40:58 PMA better rule of thumb is 0.8 grams per lb of bodyweight for someone who is active (even 1 gram per lb is fine).
Yeah, I just multiplied 0.8 times my body weight and bricked a nice one. 172 grams of protein comes to 688 calories. So if I'm eating 1200 calories a day [which, I think I'm allowed since I have a fairly sedentary lifestyle], then more than half is protein. Does this mean I can fill half my plate with Babe and Wilbur? Because I have no problem with that.
Quote from: Amadeus on October 13, 2014, 09:46:54 PM
Yeah, I just multiplied 0.8 times my body weight and bricked a nice one. 172 grams of protein comes to 688 calories. So if I'm eating 1200 calories a day [which, I think I'm allowed since I have a fairly sedentary lifestyle], then more than half is protein. Does this mean I can fill half my plate with Babe and Wilbur? Because I have no problem with that.
Note Polo said, a rule of thumb for someone who is
active. More than half of a person's calories coming from protein is possibly a recipe for wicked constipation, amongst other things. Not a good idea.
(Hmm, you eat like me...)
I hope your doctor gave you another thyroid test. This doesn't sound like a food issue to me, more of a hormone issue. In fact, have you considered that your T dose may be too high for you?
Lol Babe and Wilbur...just as long as it isn't all BACON since that doesn't count as high in protein. Not that I'm against a little bacon... For someone who is sedentary, 70 to 100 grams per day is a better amount to aim for. Protein won't give you constipation as long as you're drinking plenty of water or other low calorie beverage and eating 5+ servings of fruits and vegetables per day. But generally even people on a high-protein diet shouldn't be consuming more than half of their calories from protein, because they'll start being deficient in the other macros and micros. It's all a balancing act (much like the rest of life)
I agree with Gothic Dandy Luca though, more tests are necessary to make sure there's nothing crazy going on with hormones (including insulin) or inflammation or anemia issues.
Quote from: Polo on October 15, 2014, 10:56:42 AM
Lol Babe and Wilbur...just as long as it isn't all BACON since that doesn't count as high in protein. Not that I'm against a little bacon...
I was actually thinking bacon, pork loin, ham, minced pork, pork chops, spam and eggs, spam and onion, spam spam and spam...Scheiße. Sorry. Went into Monty Python mode.
And now I'm hungry. And I just ate.
Quote from: Amadeus on October 15, 2014, 09:09:15 PM
I was actually thinking bacon, pork loin, ham, minced pork, pork chops, spam and eggs, spam and onion, spam spam and spam...Scheiße. Sorry. Went into Monty Python mode.
And now I'm hungry. And I just ate.
Here you go:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-WEDG8XQevUM%2FUK1gh_PMFZI%2FAAAAAAAAE1s%2FKckcdMj9NfA%2Fs1600%2FIMG_0013.JPG&hash=47f8e173c572fbc4f6bbb9cf034ec6c29fd7a160)
Quote from: LordKAT on October 15, 2014, 09:11:40 PM
Here you go:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-WEDG8XQevUM%2FUK1gh_PMFZI%2FAAAAAAAAE1s%2FKckcdMj9NfA%2Fs1600%2FIMG_0013.JPG&hash=47f8e173c572fbc4f6bbb9cf034ec6c29fd7a160)
BAHAHAHA! I doff my hat to you! *doff*