Hi all, I'm new here and this has probably already been covered and I'm sorry if this is a repeat, I'm just really freaked out and would like some support/answers. I am in Seoul and am having my surgery tomorrow morning at 8AM. I would have posted this sooner but I just got my activation code, so sorry for the lateness of this. I had my consultation with Dr. Kim on Friday and found out that my vocal cords are asymmetrical, and do not close causing me to only be able to put out a note for a very short period of time. He also stressed that I will need professional voice training to reprogram my brain so that my voice sounds natural. Oh, and I have almost no resonance with my voice too. I was hoping to have this surgery to get a natural feminine sounding voice and now I'm really scared that this is all a mistake and that I will end up with some sort of bad result. I know that going off of the HRT has really messed with me and that I'm in a huge city and am not used to that, being a country girl and all. I'm 48yrs. old and just want a favorable outcome. At least my pitch is in the middle male range so that the end result was supposed to be in a good female range. Any thoughts, knowledge or advice would be greatly appreciated as like I said I'm really scared and have spent half of my time here crying and wondering if this is all a big mistake.
Hugs darling we are here, you are not alone. I hope some of the Yesson girls come on.
Best of luck and a million hugs!
Thank you both for your support. I forgot to add that Dr. Kim also told me that I have a tremor and use five times as much force to make sounds as a normal person does. I never even have tried too hard to talk feminine because it always sounded really bad. I feel like someone has it out for me and doesn't want me to have my dream come true. I'm going to basically demand to talk to Dr. Kim tomorrow before I agree to move forward with the surgery. He said he could fix the asymmetry and the lack of closure with the surgery (don't know how?), but without the professional coaching it would not sound right. I'm hoping some of this is just me misunderstanding what he is trying to say due to a slight communication error.
Hi! Wow you're just before me, I have my pre-op on Tuesday (so the day after your surgery) and my surgery on Wednesday. I wonder how many Dr. Kim does in a week.
I just arrived today and am also terrified of this city, but if you are in a pinch and need help, or would like me to go down tomorrow and be with you to provide moral support as you recover (I plan to go down anyway to "discover" where it is), even though I'm bad at moral support, and am probably not allowed to be there nor will make it on time for the surgery, feel free to drop a line. :) Best wishes!
Jessray, if you would like to show up by all means feel free. I will let Jessie know that you might be there. My surgery is at 8AM and is supposed to take about an hour.
Okie dokie. Could I have a name that I can say asked me to be there, or do you suspect you are the only patient there?
I will almost definitely not be there before 8am - I have not figured out the train system yet and I haven't slept in a full 24 hours, with the jet lag and all from an intercontinental flight that hasn't kicked in yet. :P I will try to be there at some point though, for a couple hours before I look for groceries, and if not I'll be sending best wishes anyway! I think it will be nearly evening before they let you go?
Amy Whitaker is my name and I'm pretty sure you are right that I will be there for probably seven hours or so. I FULLY understand about the sleep. lol I don't know what your schedule is like but maybe I can be there some for you as well if you want. My follow up is Friday and I leave Saturday morning.
If you like, but no worries if not! Most of my anxieties come from thinking of surgery in general itself, so it will mainly be tomorrow night, Tuesday night and Wednesday morning that I will have trouble, I think, even though I know that this surgery is safe and pretty darn effective. Though I can't answer the concerns in your original post. My pre-op appt is on Tuesday, surgery on Wednesday, and post-op is next Wednesday on the 30th. I fly off on the 31st.
Amy
It sounds like we have about the same issues with our voice. Dr Kim also showed me that my vocal cord were asymmetrical and did not close all the way. He also told me that it took more air to produce sound then it should have, but the surgery seems to have fixed everything. And a bonus is that with the incomplete closure of the vocal cords I might be able to have insurance pay for some of the surgery. :)
As far as the surgery goes your in great hands. I don't think I've ever seem a more professional office then Dr Kim's. I can say from what little I've spoken so far is that it doesn't seem to take as much effort as it did to speak. My voice is weak yet but it's getting better every day.
I'll post the time line graph Dr Kim gave me for recovery. I think it gives a very realistic outlook on what and how long recovery will take. I'm also in my late 40s so maybe we'll have to work on this together. :) :)
Thanx Apollymi. Does your voice sound okay now, and more feminine?
I would say do not not worry too much - you will most likely have benefit from the surgery in terms of pitch but I think it is true that some voice training is always beneficial - with or without surgery. This is because there is more to a female voice than pitch, but surgery can only adress this. I heard that it is easier to get this trained post op though as you then can concentrate on those things instead of pitch. I would not be scared about voice training though. At least for me, voice training is always also fun and if I can, I will continue it for more time, especially when I can be post op. Basically it is a lot about discovering your voice, using it properly and in new ways and playing and experimenting - it really can be fun.
Something like this could definitely be scary, but my best advice is try not to look at it as there's that small percent that something could go wrong, but rather that there's a much bigger chance everything will be fine, and come out to your wanting. It's like flying for example. There's that small percentage that the plane could crash, making one scared to ride, but that is in severe rare cases, that almost never even happen. Everything will be alright.
I remember their was a Hanna Montana episode I saw, you know, when she was normal, on her getting a voice surgery. Same situation. She was really scared, but they told her not to be, and it turned out just fine for her.
Well it's Tuesday here in Seoul and the surgery went well. When Dr. Kim re-scoped my vocal chords it looked like one third to one half had been sutured. I did not have fun with the side effects of the anesthesia. Dizziness, nausea, headache and almost completely freaked out when I woke up. Thank goodness I didn't say anything. Can't wait to eat more ice cream because it feels so good on the throat, and it tastes pretty good too. Though they where a little mean when they told me no chocolate for three weeks. lol Thank you so much Jessray for stopping by, it was really great to see you. This not talking thing is going to be harder than I thought, I have already almost started saying something a couple of times before I caught myself. Oh I got a chance to talk to Dr. Kim before the surgery and he very nicely explained everything to me and put my fears to rest. Yay!
Nice, glad to hear everything's (assumedly) going well and thanks for staying strong. :) Was the dizziness, headache and nausea gone by the time they discharged you? What time did they let you go? Are you feeling almost back to full strength now in terms of general activity level? And hey, any excuse to have ice cream is great! I already have a small box in the freezer in anticipation.. taste tested and all too. :P
I was released at six and the symptoms where still there but better. I still have a slight headache and am a little worn out, but other than that not too bad. I'm guessing that by tomorrow I will be back up to 100%. This morning in the shower I coughed up some phlegm and tried to make sure I coughed right. At first I was scared that I might have done something, but when there was no increase in pain I figure all is good. If your ice cream is chocolate make sure you eat it now, because I found out (much to my dismay) no chocolate for at least three weeks. :-( Oh I also have a little bit of a sore throat and think I can feel the sutures too. When Dr. Kim re-scoped me prior to my discharge it looked like somewhere between one third to one half got sutured up. He expects my increase in pitch to occur between two to four months with a gradual improvement after that.
Awesome, glad to hear :D
Nope it's vanilla, but noted! I wonder why not chocolate, and what other flavours/foods aren't allowed! They just said spicy/salty as far as I could recall in the notes, hmm..
I would guess it is because of the caffeine in it. I know they say no caffeine for 2 months also because it will dry out the vocal cords. I went out for a walk around the city some today too. When I got back I was watching a show and accidentally laughed just a little before I caught myself, no increase in pain but I hope I didn't hurt anything.
Quote from: northcountrymassage on July 22, 2014, 01:18:23 AM
I would guess it is because of the caffeine in it. I know they say no caffeine for 2 months also because it will dry out the vocal cords. I went out for a walk around the city some today too. When I got back I was watching a show and accidentally laughed just a little before I caught myself, no increase in pain but I hope I didn't hurt anything.
Hey congrats on the surgery! I'm right at 2 weeks post-op myself. Don't worry about messing up your vocal folds. From what Jessie and Dr. Kim mentioned, the sutures don't come out very easily, and to do real damage (which you'll know you've done from the searing pain), you have to do something serious like sustained shouting. Just keep following the post-op instructions as best as you can so you get the best results and don't sweat the small stuff. :D
Thank you CoderMarrisa, that is really nice to know as I have already spoken a couple of times softly, and then catch myself thinking "oh god, I hope I didn't just mess something up." So far the only thing I would say that they lied about was saying the Botox injections don't hurt. I don't know if it was because I couldn't watch the needle like I usually do, or that I was so worked up about having a needle stuck in my throat, but it didn't feel too good. So far things seem to be going well, still a sore throat but I had swelling at my follow up on Friday and was given additional medication to take for that. I'm probably like most girls and now just can't wait to try and see what my voice will sound like, but I'll be a good girl and wait.
I think it's safe to say most of us accidentally said something, caught ourselves, then thought, "OMG I hope I didn't screw anything up!" And yeah, the botox injection isn't altogether pleasant, though compared to the pain when waking up post-op, it was a walk in the park. :laugh:
Dr. Kim noticed some redness around my suture site during my post-op check up and also prescribed additional meds; I think it was another 5 days worth or so. He also instructed me to stay totally silent an additional week, just in case.
It's a trip to hear your voice for the first time. Your vocal cords will definitely feel different from what it was before. Just relax and keep your vocal cords loose. It'll be hoarse, and maybe still sound low-ish compared to what you hope for the final result, but that's from the swelling and the botox. Just give it time and also remember that it'll be the lowest you'll ever hear it, and should be higher than the lowest you could go before.
Cheers! :)
CoderMarissa you are right on the five days of additional medication, though with me he didn't say anything about being totally silent for another week. The pain of the Botox for me was actually worse than the pain I felt with the surgery, go figure. lol The worse thing for me so far was the effects of the general anesthesia, that by far really stunk for me. I tried speaking a few words on Monday and you are so right about it being trippie. It was very weak and hoarse but definitely at a much higher pitch. I can't wait for the healing to be done so I can start to hear what it really will sound like. I have not said anything since then as I want to be a good girl and not push it, but it's going to be a lot harder than I thought it would be.
Okay here is my before the operation and the recording I just did at four weeks post-op. Please let me know what you all think, and is this much hoarseness and weakness common?
https://soundcloud.com/user1152848/before-operation
https://soundcloud.com/user1152848/four-weeks-after-surgery
Hi Amy Lynn (good choice of names ;) )
I think in the post op recording you are sounding like you are trying to force the new voice down to your old pitch. maybe this is subconscious. You are even using a lot of vocal fry to do this. Part of it certainly is from the hoarseness and weakness that is normal after only 4 weeks. I think 8 weeks would be the date to have a better voice and 3 months where it can be clear again. I would in your case think you should follow that advice I heard some people have been given by Yesons - to deliberately talk higher pitched now, so the voice and the brain can settle on the new voice. Other than that - get mor voice rest ;)
This recording I made a conscious effort to try to stay very relaxed and just let the voice out as it would come. Definitely less hoarse sounding, so I guess I need to stay focused on maintaining a soft volume and remain relaxed. They never told me to deliberately talk in a higher pitch though, and I wouldn't want to sound fake, so if I do maybe it will be when I talk to myself. lol
https://soundcloud.com/user1152848/4-1
The new recording sounds good. Can definitely hear a difference. Congrats
Yes the new recording sounds good :)
As others have said, it is indeed a lot about relaxation- I even heard this from Dr. Kim himself!
Good luck with recovery! And please do remember that one of the largest parts is to learn how to use your new voice. Never give up hope, Dr. Kim has undoubtedly worked his magic on you and now it is in your court to train the rest of the way.
You'll have good voice days and bad voice days for months to come. Stick with it, expect to learn a lot, and you'll be very happy with your result!
Thank you so much for posting your experience, I definitely have some issues like tremor and not being able to sustain notes properly.
At present I have a provisional date of 7th Oct for consultation and 8th October for surgery. I had a VFS procedure done before in Japan and am not really sure if it was botched or what because my voice was / is terrible since about 3 months after the operation in May 2011. The doctor I used seems to have disappeared off the map and the clinic no longer offers VFS which is making me more worried :(
I need to send some voice samples to Yeson and then my schedule will be confirmed.
As Jenny said the 2nd recording sounds much better :)
Thank you girls for the kind words, it means a lot to get some honest feedback. I find my voice seems to be getting better every day, and now I understand some about the talking higher thing. If I try to talk like I used to it sounds horrible and very strained, it also quickly causes discomfort. As long as I keep my throat relaxed and talk at a higher tone (nothing ridiculous mind you) then there is no strain and no discomfort. I'm amazed how quickly I have adapted to this new way of talking, and now have to make a conscious effort to talk the old way.
So it sounds a bit like the VFS is acting like a reminder to you ;) - if you talk the old was, it gets uncomfy, if you talk a bit higher, it is all good :) - Hopefully this will not take a conscious effort? Is it easier now to talk at a higher pitch than before the surgery?
We are looking forward to newer recordings then with a more relaxed voice and using a pitch that works for you eithout effort but still in a good zone :)
It is much easier to talk in a higher pitch now than it was before, and it is pretty much automatic. One thing I would like to get feedback from people who have had the surgery is it normal for your pitch to drop again some before going back up? I just did another recording and it sounds closer to my old voice than the others. :-( :-( I'm not going to let this phase me too much as I know Dr. Kim said the main improvements would be between two and four months. Anyhoo, here is the recording I did today.
https://soundcloud.com/user1152848/40-days-post-op
Have you analyzed the pitch in praat? to get an idea? I cannot download it from soundcloud, so I cannot load it in praat. only vocaroo seems to allow downloads.
It sounds not too bad - not worse than before I think but it still could use some improvement I think. Did you try jus tusing a higher pitch for reading? If it is comfortable and automatic, what if you apply it with not much effort? does it sound better then?
I have a problem with understanding Praat and haven't taken the time yet to get to know it. I have changed the permissions on my recordings so you can download them if you wish. When I was reading I didn't concentrate on anything other than trying to speak in my normal voice as it comes to me now. Here is one with me focusing on raising the pitch some, but still within a comfortable range.
https://soundcloud.com/user1152848/40-days-post-op-part-2
The elevated pitch one is good, but I think it is less because you are actually elevating pitch a bit, but because you are concentrating on the voice more. I think what happens there is that you are controlling the resonance and timbre along with the bit of pitch increase (from about 180 average to about 200 Hz average). Both pitches are in the female range, but I noticed in both recordings that at the end of a sentence you can go very low in pitch. In the first it was down at 120 Hz which should be about your lowest possible note, in the other it was at 150 Hz which is I think still a bit low. Thos excursions into the low range are not the best thing to do, in voice training one tries to rather keep the ends of sentences at a higher pitch, sometimes even going up or just going down a bit. But that is a voice training thing, I believe. Still it shows that you still can go to 120 Hz when speaking.
What you could try to do now is to use your relaxed speaking voice, the first of the last two recordings but apply the voice control you used in the second recording, but not care so much about the pitch. It should be able to give you a relaxed voice that has a better timbre and resonance.
Thank you anja for the information, it is greatly appreciated and I will try your suggestions. I guess a change from 137 Hz to 180 /200 Hz isn't too bad for right now. Dr. Kim said that he figured my average would end up being about 211 Hz.
Amy Lynn,
Wow, I found your posts and your voice sounds great! Such an improvement with more to come if the previous post hold true. Is Dr. Kim still around $7,500?
How long did you stay in Seoul?
Best wishes, Sarah
Agreed with anjaq. Yeson's work does improve the timbre - in fact I'd go as far as to suggest that those who find the c. 1 month period difficult, might be affected more by the timbre being similar to their old voice than the pitch. This would be expected with swelling, and as it subsides the pitch/timbre reach their new natural state which is much more "resonant" (or perhaps, something to which one can engage the sinus/forehead/skull resonance.)
My own observations are that timbre (not the same thing as resonance), diction, and prosody have the foremost role in a feminine-sounding voice. We emphasize pitch pitch pitch here, which no doubt is important, but if you listen to some female radio DJs, it's common to hear them regularly speak as low as ~100hz and not sound at all masculine because of their innate vocal timbre, combined with how they speak. If anything they sound extremely soothing. But they're also generally able to speak up to ~300hz in their highest peaks of melodic speech, and sound very natural & unforced doing so.
Also concentrating on a program that gives you mechanical readings seems counterproductive to me. Voices are supposed to feel, not measure - to represent our feelings and how we feel. If you want to train new habits into your voice, I'd base them around concentrating on total relaxation and sounding beautiful :) Then when you speak in your daily life the use of your voice will be a positive feedback loop with confidence!
Quote from: Rachelicious on September 01, 2014, 07:17:21 AM
if you listen to some female radio DJs, it's common to hear them regularly speak as low as ~100hz and not sound at all masculine because of their innate vocal timbre, combined with how they speak. If anything they sound extremely soothing. But they're also generally able to speak up to ~300hz in their highest peaks of melodic speech, and sound very natural & unforced doing so.
Yes definitely and this is what people keep telling me - I should not do voice surgery but rather train my voice to sound more female at a lower pitch as well, just like those radio moderators or actresses - and to train to use a 300 Hz pitch without effort or straining. In voice therapy we are tryin to get that, but I am not sure if it really can work with the wrong instrument at its base.
QuoteIf you want to train new habits into your voice, I'd base them around concentrating on total relaxation and sounding beautiful :) Then when you speak in your daily life the use of your voice will be a positive feedback loop with confidence!
Definitely. An I can imagine if pitch and timbre then are changed by a surgery and are not giving a negative feeling, this can work well.
For me it already does in the past weeks. I did voice rehab to relax my voice and sound healthy and maybe also a bit beautiful even if the pitch is really in the low range, I can use higher pitches for single words. People tell me my voice is quite good now, especially compared to last year when it was still broken from tryint to raise the pitch all the time. I accepted now that my pitch at this time is lower and tried to relax and focus on a nice voice and it really is better. I still would love it if I would not have that timbre that bugs me - I am unsure now though if it is really a true male quality - I was told at times that my voice is actually quite soothing because of its low pitch and timbre. It is something I might actually miss a bit if I change it surgically. I dont know.
Quote from: anjaq on September 01, 2014, 03:44:25 PM
Yes definitely and this is what people keep telling me - I should not do voice surgery but rather train my voice to sound more female at a lower pitch as well, just like those radio moderators or actresses - and to train to use a 300 Hz pitch without effort or straining. In voice therapy we are tryin to get that, but I am not sure if it really can work with the wrong instrument at its base.
Exactly. There's a huge psychological difference between having a good sound, and only being able to sound good in certain settings with sufficient concentration.
Quote from: anjaq on September 01, 2014, 03:44:25 PM
People tell me my voice is quite good now, especially compared to last year when it was still broken from tryint to raise the pitch all the time. I accepted now that my pitch at this time is lower and tried to relax and focus on a nice voice and it really is better. I still would love it if I would not have that timbre that bugs me - I am unsure now though if it is really a true male quality - I was told at times that my voice is actually quite soothing because of its low pitch and timbre. It is something I might actually miss a bit if I change it surgically. I dont know.
I can see getting attached to the sound of the part of the voice you can create and use well. It's a comfortable midnight oasis of sorts against a dearth of other options. My position is one of constantly feeling vocally crippled, that my identity suffers because of my vocal condition placing unreasonable limitations on what I can say when and how loud or with what inflection I can say it - that, in turn, leads me to hold myself back, to live passively defined and not wholly authentic simply out of contingency.
So for me the fact that I can sound good doesn't outweigh the lack of freedom and inhibition that's associated with retaining a sultry feminine tone that sounds feminine only in light, limited applications of vocal use.
Yes. I totally get that. I long for such a liberation and freedom to not care at all anymore. I am not sure VFS can totally provide that given that one still has to watch out for some of the parameters that bug me in training right now - inflection, prosody, melody, resonance... but I guess it can go a long way towards being at least partly more free.
I definitel hate it to always be so much aware and a bit frightened about how my voice will come out next when I say something - will it be good or will it be a bit of a mess. sigh. And I dont even dare to rais pitch a lot for intonaton or inflection because I may hit the "break" and then sound silly.
Quote from: anjaq on September 03, 2014, 04:05:49 PM
I definitel hate it to always be so much aware and a bit frightened about how my voice will come out next when I say something - will it be good or will it be a bit of a mess. sigh. And I dont even dare to rais pitch a lot for intonaton or inflection because I may hit the "break" and then sound silly.
Oh my the FEELS. The FEELS THE FEELS THE FEELS :'(
Quote from: SarahJ on August 31, 2014, 09:11:49 PM
Amy Lynn,
Wow, I found your posts and your voice sounds great! Such an improvement with more to come if the previous post hold true. Is Dr. Kim still around $7,500?
How long did you stay in Seoul?
Best wishes, Sarah
Thank you so much Sarah. I had a very quick turn around compared to most girls. My consultation was on a Friday with the surgery the following Monday and the final evaluation that Friday. Most girls have a week from time of surgery to final evaluation, and yes the cost is still around $7,500 not including $400 if you need the Botox injections (I would plan on needing them as a lot do).
Okay girls, here is my two month recording that I just did. Let me know what you think about it if you would? Also, Dr. Kim told me that I should wait till the end of the month to do shouting or singing, but do you think now that two months have past that I would be safe to start on the vocal exercises they gave me?
https://soundcloud.com/user1152848/2-month-post-op
I think the voice is quite good already. it sounds to me a bit weak yet and I guess it will need some more voice exercises to get the resonance right - pitch is good, but I think that the resonance could use some improvement. Are you using stuff from voice training to get this voice now or is it totally unmodified? I think towards the end of the recording it sounds better than in the beginning.
What is evident to me is that this surgery seems to cut away a lot of the deeper resonances and undertones. This makes the voice more clear but also quite a bit less voluminous and powerful. Probably voice training can change that and maybe activate some resonances that make the voice fuller again on a different level?
anja, this is without any modification other than talking in the range that is comfortable and doesn't hurt. If I try to talk the way I used too, it is really strained and hurts in a very short time. Though I don't even have to think about it now. Dr. Kim wanted me to wait until the end of this month to sing and shout, so I wonder if the same holds true to the voice exercises they gave me. I have an email in to Jessie at Yeson and am waiting for a reply.
Ok, So I guess once you do the voice exercises and maybe some voice rehab to get the resonance right, it will be all good - I think it was said several times already that this surgery does not relief one from doing some other voice modifications like resonance and prosody changes to make the voice sound really great afterwards. If you dont do that, it probably will just be good and not great ;)