I ask because I have been seeing a therapist for almost a year and looking to get serious about transition, but the "real life" test of full time is something of a concern to me. I think I am probably in the minority, but I identify and see myself more as a tom-boy type woman. I don't feel I need breast augmentation or long hair or dresses. I just want to be me, and I've spent 35 years as a jeans-and-tshirt kinda guy and want to be the same kind of girl. I've always been a somewhat private person, and I'll deal with people who notice changes as they come, but I'm really not concerned with being "misgendered" as I guess I'm going for a more androgynous everyday look.
So is there anyone else out there that has experience relative to my situation? I guess my fear is if I don't tell them I want to wear ultra-feminine clothes or have long hair/large breasts they'll think I'm not serious about believing I'm a woman. I will most certainly be happy if someone uses female pronouns, but will it hurt my ability to proceed if I say it won't be world ending for me if it doesn't always happen?
Hi Soon2bShannon. Interesting question, which reminded me of my own situation early in my transition. Let me ask: are you thinking of going down the part-time girl route because that's how you actually feel, or is it because you're nervous about transitioning?
The real life test - is this being imposed by your therapist? Are you taking hormones yet? Do you feel like the next step is a massive change?
Sorry to answer your post with questions, but a little more detail would really help.
My own situation? Same kind of thing - perhaps. Went through therapy, got to the point that I needed to take the next step (hormones, not real life test.) It was a huge hurdle to get over, and I put it off for a long time because I wasn't sure if I wanted to take any concrete steps towards transitioning. I was so frightened that anyone might find out, and I thought I could somehow keep it private. So I ended up trying to convince myself that I would be ok as androgynous, or that I'd be ok if I kept one foot in the male world and one foot in the female somehow. Turns out that things became so much easier when I admitted to myself that I really want to be a girl and decided to go for the gold standard instead of some kind of compromise. :)
(Edit - see my follow-up below re: my clumsy use of the term "gold standard")
Pressuring women (or men) to zealously adhere to all the stereotypes of their target gender is a pretty old fashioned approach, and I would hope your treatment team won't apply that kind of standard. A lot of people prefer to go slow, or aren't into the flashier aspects of transition. Your experience sounds normal.
I don't think the real life experience thing is expected of transmen near as much, but my transition was sorta like what you described wanting. When I was a teenager I could live as male or female depending on how I was feeling, and then when I started actual transition in my late twenties it was very piecemeal and gradual. Now I'm not androgynous but the more I am successfully read as male the more I relax about the girly traits I do have.
I think whatever you feel is healthiest for you should be okay. You're still a "real" transperson even if you don't mind occasional boymode or if you don't like mascara or whatever.
Hi Shannon,
I've been just over six months "out" to myself and gradually to others. I'm sort of part-time in that I'm now presenting as female at weekends. I'm pre hormones and everything else. I understand the fear of "where am I?" and "where's it all going?" I think it comes down to trying to be the best version of you that you can be - for yourself, and not for anyone else especially.
You say you've been going to a therapist for a year, it seems as though you haven't raised gender issues or transition with them yet? I take your point about whether or not they would help if you didn't want to present in an ultra-feminine way. However, I think a good therapist will see beyond "just clothes" and will seek to engage with you about your needs and wishes instead. They should be able to walk you through the various options that are out there - we're not all the same, we don't have the same background, experience, needs or desires. Tell them the truth about you and who you are, and take it from there.
All the best to you in this new stage of your life! :)
Hugs,
Ros
Quote from: Brenda E on July 26, 2014, 09:31:53 PM
My own situation? Same kind of thing - perhaps. Went through therapy, got to the point that I needed to take the next step (hormones, not real life test.) ... I ended up trying to convince myself that I would be ok as androgynous, or that I'd be ok if I kept one foot in the male world and one foot in the female somehow. Turns out that things became so much easier when I admitted to myself that I really want to be a girl and decided to go for the gold standard instead of some kind of compromise. :)
Shannon
There are many who have a non binary identity and express themselves androgynously or live as both genders. Each person should find their own way to best express their identity. Those who were MAAB may transition as MTA etc or may find that it is easier to take the binary approach and transition MTF. Often the decision to transition as a non binary M to non binary F appears to be taken because as a woman they expect to be able to express themselves more authentically and flexibly.
This really is your decision and it is a narrative which you need to write and to own. The only 'gold standard' is the one that works for you. There are a number of folk who have detransitioned so working this issue, your identity and expression deserves some attention. Just like the first answer is rarely the full answer, take your time. Binarism may be the right answer, the 'best' answer or the wrong answer. A good gender therapist will certainly help. Only you will know where you should travel or what will be best for you
Safe travels
Aisla
Quote from: Aisla on July 26, 2014, 09:54:51 PMThe only 'gold standard' is the one that works for you.
Absolutely. I should have made it clearer that by using such a term in my original response, I was referring to my own
personal "gold standard" - the end result I wanted in my wildest dreams - and not some trans-wide gold standard, of which there is no such thing.
I didn't mean to imply that anything other than a complete MtF transition was a less than successful outcome or a less legitimate presentation. It's exactly what Aisla says: the only gold standard is the one that works for you.
My point was that you shouldn't let anything get in your way - therapists, fears, old-fashioned rules and regulations, whatever it might be. You know where you want to end up eventually, so aim for it and make sure you get there without compromise. Sorry for any confusion.
Wow, thanks for the responses! To be honest I was a bit nervous with even posting, I thought maybe my ideas or just how I phrased things would bring "correction" about how to behave. It seems a bit silly now, but I think I've been approaching my therapist (and probably a lot of life) in the same fashion. I've been tip-toeing into the gender issue with her, I've brought it up since the beginning but wanted to establish myself as geniune simply by being consistent over time.
Also you are right Brenda, in that part of envisioning a smaller change makes the changes that come with the decision easier on my nerves :). I like to think things through and plan a bit too much, probably need to just go in and be upfront! Thanks again everyone, I think this forum is going to be an excellent resource for a long long time!
Being nervous is natural. For many of us, just speaking with someone else was our first and most difficult step. Finding Susans, its wealth of information and its many great members, like Brenda, is a real blessing and we wish you all the very best on your journey. Plenty of folk here who have lots to share, happy to listen and to travel with for a while
Safe travels
Aisla
Just be yourself. I wear women's jeans and tank tops to work and never makeup at work..unless a little concealer and some lip something. I climb poles and do construction so sue me. I like to clean up and wear a dress or even a leather corset on occasion. Don't feel you have to fit anyone's mold but your own.
When I spoke with my therapist and discussed self hate she told me to change what needs changing and so I am but my plans are mine and in my mind alone...go ahead and follow your own. :)
Today I wore a pair of bootcut dark blue women's jeans, a black/purple short-sleeve men's button-up, a men's silver/black necklace, no makeup, and unisex converse shoes. I also wear my hair super short, and I'm an AA cup. Oh and I'm 6'1" tall. Basically I look like a pretty typical andro lesbian.
I transitioned 3 years ago--HRT, SRS, the full deal. So, it's definitely possible, though it can be challenging in some ways due to violating a lot of the expectations of what trans women should be. But fewer and fewer therapists are stuck on those old ideas, thankfully.
And I've still never worn a dress. ;)
Most therapists are past the stereotype binary presentation, and the binary gender. A good therapist will help you find where you stand on that range, and the work with you to find the best way to manage your treatment.
Personally, I present male, been on HRT for over two years, have no idea where my levels are at (find out this week). I definitely fall on the male side of presentation, and that is for convenience.
Deep down I am a girlie girl and that is how I love to present. At the same time I have absolutely no problem doing a brake job on the Blazer. It is all just a part of who I am. I cannot deny a lifetime of being a motor head, master of the electron and holder of all knowledge arcane any more then I have learned I cannot deny a lifetime of knowing I am a woman.
When I restarted this journey for the third time several years ago transition was the last thing on my radar. A year or two later to my surprise I found myself living part time as female. It just sort of happened one baby step at a time. A year or so later my mind started to drift towards thinking "What if I......"
A scary place to visit. Especially for me. Unlike most at this point I was already living two lives, both male. One as dedicated husband with a semi-invalid wife 3 states away guarding a home while I tried keeping the empire together working and living in WV. Now WV life had split into two, one engineer, and one woman. All this on the shoulders of someone with little luck just keeping one of those lives together!
Androgynous is not an option for me. At 6ft tall, almost bald, big boned, etc.. there is no real in between. Part time was my only option. I can tell you from my experience as well as others in my TG group that have been there it has an emotional toll. Not a Sunday night went by that I was not in tears taking off my nail polish. This sort of point was usually when the choice is made to go full time. The pain of having to change into something fake far outweighing the fear of living a genuine life.
Today I am back to living just two lives under the same roof as my wife. A choice whose costs I gladly bear. My relationship with her is as important, if not more so, then other aspects of myself. The positive aspect is she is experiencing how much I've grown and changed over our time apart. Our relationship gets better and stronger every day. She is comfortable with seeing Joanne around the house. In time after we get out of this toxic area, I'll be able to be out in the real world as the real me more often. Perhaps eventually on a full-time basis. Though that is more unclear today than 2 years ago as I feel better overall just being me.
However, I know where my true joy lies every time I look in the mirror and see Joanne looking back. Feeling totally genuine is difficult to top.
You sound a bit like me! Some of these very things were what I brought up with my therapist way back when, as I argued that "real life experience" was invalid for someone like me because clothes do not make the person, as we all know. Although I usually get gendered female (and prefer it that way), I had no desire for breast augmentation and excessive makeup and girly clothes... You couldn't get me into a skirt if you paid me! Mind you, I haven't a stitch of male clothes, but they're all butchy, in keeping with my butchy lesbian persona ;) There are far too many strong, andro women (especially in our lesbian communities) for anyone to seriously argue femininity in personal style has a damn thing to do with who we are on the inside, or whether or not our external bits should be corrected to reflect that. Fortunately, my therapist understood that easily enough, and two years later, no worries, no regrets.
Alot of people i know live pretty androgynous. One of my mtf friend sound abit like you. She did dress pretty femenine when she came out but currently she dress pretty casual most of the time. She wear jeans and tshirt to work most of the time. She identify rather grnder queer or as a tomboy.
Only you can define yourself. A therapist while helping you find where you are on the trans spectrum can't define who you are or what gender you truly are inside.
I haven't exactly been in your shoes as I haven't begun transition yet, but still dress masculinely and always have (I'm FTM). This summer, I took a class at a school far away from my college and actually found that the people at the table where I sat perceived me as male (I still use female facilities). However, at work, I'm known as a female due to my name and what's on my records so obviously I cannot be stealth there. This was the first time I truly felt "part time" as one gender or the other. Like you, I'm not particularly strict about pronouns (in the sense of "Oh god, i was misgendered"), though that can change.
As for you, I say do what makes you happy. You can always claim to be a butch lesbian/tomboy, whatever. No one is required to know more about your life than you're willing to give them. Granted, as someone who was designated male at birth, it may be hard to pass as a lesbian, but I imagine HRT (if you go that route) would make it easier. Androgyny isn't any easier to be than say FTM or MTF. You have to find your comfort zone and learn how to exude yourself in a way that will make people see you as close to the gender identity as you relate to as possible. Something I've learned along the way, though, is that gender identity is in the eye of the beholder. As long as you're not in any danger, experiment with what feels right in terms of your gender. Your first and foremost goal should be to become happy in the body that you have. Worrying about people taking you seriously should be lower on the list.
Quote from: StevieAK on July 27, 2014, 03:03:42 AM
Just be yourself. I wear women's jeans and tank tops to work and never makeup at work..unless a little concealer and some lip something. I climb poles and do construction so sue me. I like to clean up and wear a dress or even a leather corset on occasion. Don't feel you have to fit anyone's mold but your own.
When I spoke with my therapist and discussed self hate she told me to change what needs changing and so I am but my plans are mine and in my mind alone...go ahead and follow your own. :)
Ok Stevie, you do know your avatar is sideways right? Made me dizzy trying to turn my head to look. ;D
Actually I am non binary I get ma'am'd and I get sir'd. I live kind of in between not really androgynous and not really one specific gender and yeah I am starting to get extremely dysphoric again. But most of the time I can be either/or but always keep in mind that it is a dynamic thing and what you feel today and happy today how you are it may be totally different tomorrow.
Would be great to be able to pass as either gender in unisex casual clothing (as well as gender specific clothing).
Quote from: mac1 on August 04, 2014, 03:14:43 PM
Would be great to be able to pass as either gender in unisex casual clothing (as well as gender specific clothing).
I really hate to tell you this mac but people are so engrained in the genders that they are gonna see you as one or the other no matter how androgynous you are. You may confuse people but they are goanna' label you male or female no matte what.
Quote from: Jess42 on August 04, 2014, 03:46:39 PM
I really hate to tell you this mac but people are so engrained in the genders that they are gonna see you as one or the other no matter how androgynous you are. You may confuse people but they are goanna' label you male or female no matte what.
Then I would prefer to be labeled as female no matter what.
Quote from: mac1 on August 04, 2014, 03:50:21 PM
Then I would prefer to be labeled as female no matter what.
Yeah, me too. :( Sometimes it happen and sometimes it doesn't.
Quote from: Soon2bShannon on July 26, 2014, 08:47:56 PMI ask because I have been seeing a therapist for almost a year and looking to get serious about transition, but the "real life" test of full time is something of a concern to me. I think I am probably in the minority, but I identify and see myself more as a tom-boy type woman. I don't feel I need breast augmentation or long hair or dresses. I just want to be me, and I've spent 35 years as a jeans-and-tshirt kinda guy and want to be the same kind of girl. I've always been a somewhat private person, and I'll deal with people who notice changes as they come, but I'm really not concerned with being "misgendered" as I guess I'm going for a more androgynous everyday look.
So is there anyone else out there that has experience relative to my situation? I guess my fear is if I don't tell them I want to wear ultra-feminine clothes or have long hair/large breasts they'll think I'm not serious about believing I'm a woman. I will most certainly be happy if someone uses female pronouns, but will it hurt my ability to proceed if I say it won't be world ending for me if it doesn't always happen?
The few times I have presented as female, it has been in black bootcut jeans & a girl's t-shirt. This is what I find comfortable. Granted, I have been described as "sartorially challenged".
Once I started Estrogen, the compulsion to wear female clothing abated. It has never really been about the clothing for me. It is about how I feel living in my own skin. Staying entirely male became unbearable for me in Jan 2013, and I had to do something about that. For me, the something I needed has been HRT.
Most of the time I present as male just because it is easier. As my body gently morphs over time, I may reach a point where it becomes easier for me to present as female rather than male. In the meantime, I am somewhere inbetween the two, and comfortable there for now. I live in Philadelphia, which means I do not have to worry too much about overt transphobia.
I do not worry myself over what pronouns people are using for me. I have enough to worry about already without looking for more.
As to your question about being allowed to proceed:
If you are seeing an NHS therapist in the UK, then the NHS rules seem to demand a full year living as "the other gender" (eg: female for MtF) before giving any HRT at all. I am very glad this did not apply to me. I do not think I would have been able to survive that much humiliation.
If you are seeing a private therapist & general practitioner in the UK, then there is unlikely to be any requirement for a "real life" test.
If you are living in the US, then there should be no expectation of any "real life" test before receiving HRT. There are many medical practices that operate on an "informed consent" model. This basically means signing a waiver stating that you know what you are doing & do not hold the medical practice legally responsible for anything that might result from the HRT medication.
If you are living elsewhere, then check the laws & rules there, &/or state the name of the country here & hopefully someone will be able to help. Treatment for trans folk varies widely from one country to the next.
Hope this helps,
Tessa
TessaMarie
You could have been describing my situation :) - except that I live in Oz. We also work on an informed consent protocol. Very straight forward with few roadblocks. Most endos will work with you to help you meet your objectives - dysphoria relief or removal; minor, binary or full transition etc
Aisla
Aisla,
Agreed. It was pretty straightforward for me to get onto low dose. Doing anything further such as an orchi would require me to go back to jumping therapy hoops.