With all the productive dialogue we see here on susans it's a crying shame that we're still basically corralled in our insulated bubble.
I think the dynamic would change if "transgendered topics" where explored in grade school curricula such as junior high sex ed. Actually aren't gay and lesbian topics covered these days? I wouldn't know, it's been awhile. ;D
But there's no signal in the noise for people to latch on to like the gay and lesbian community has done with their message. Does the phrase - "out of sight, out of mind." So to our siblings, friends and coworkers who learn about us being "trans" - and from no one other than ourselves - we appear like the lone "man overboard!" off the cruise ship needing to be rescued and processed. Unbeknownst to them the reality is we're quite a handful of people on upper deck just dancing the night away with the others. We're not a rare minority of extremists or social vanguard. There's no need to pity or psychologize us. We're a large and growing group and we need you to know we're getting along fine.
Our problems with acceptance amounts to purely ignorance, an unfortunate consequence of being uninformed. People fear and mock what they don't understand.
Education is key, but not many (or enough) envoys in our midst, so perhaps we need a pilgrimage on Washington? ;D Make a few demands on education? Either way I don't see this situation changing, at least until the old school of thought is out and new school is in. And that I believe, begins with our children.
Evelyn, I totally agree.
I would also like to see a change in mass media (since that's where people get most of their information). Realistic portrayals of trans people living realistic lives. Well-adjusted trans characters playing ordinary parts in movies and TV shows.
That would go a long way to demystify us and take away the sensationalism.
Absolutely, totally, 100% agreed. I've been saying all along that the unrealistic portrayals of transgender people in the media and the lack of discussion of transgender topics in sexual education class were a huge part of the reason it took me so long to realize I was transgender. I mean, if even one person in grade school had clearly explained to me that being transgender meant that you weren't comfortable with your gender identity (nothing to do with sexuality), and explained what you can do to transition and what sort of results you could expect, it would have saved me from nearly 15 years of misery.
Up until the very recent present "Out of sight out of mind" was and still is the ideal. How many instances of "Stealth" topics can you find here on Susans? Sadly, one has to wonder how many of the TDOR statistics are the result of out in the open to in your face trans people being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
On several occasions in the years leading to the passage in Maryland of a TG Rights bill I attended the Senate hearings. One could not help but to wonder how many times between the panel members and especially with the loyal opposition (aka bathroom nutz) were in a rest room or otherwise crossed paths with a trans-woman and had no clue they did?
A good place to start is with the LGB community itself where T is for token. Stonewall occurred during my early teens. To this day we are still not really accepted by them. I love reminding people it were the ->-bleeped-<-s that threw the first punches at the cops. After that they wanted nothing to do with T's and still really don't it seems.
A gay rights bill passed the Maryland Senate and was signed into law years before the trans rights bill. Behind the scenes negotiations got trans issues written out. In essence the LGB(T) block threw the T's under the bus. So much for solidarity.
I am very glad to see trans people being shown in a more positive light then in the dark past of Jerry Springer days. However, the new media never misses an opportunity to sensationalize and titillate any story with a trans (specifically MTF). Oh, I mean any story short of beatings or killings of an MTF which are obviously OK in their minds, no real news. Nothing to see here just keep moving.
I totally agree Evelyn.
In amongst all of the bad things I see positive change occurring for us too. Laverne Cox on the cover of time magazine. Trans people getting elected to political positions. More positive articles about us in the media, and a growing awareness in the media of the proper way to report on trans issues. Our kids are leading the way with their acceptance. More and more equality laws being passed, and the old bigoted generation is slowly dying off. It just takes time.
10 years ago where we are today would have seemed unfathomable. 10 years from now I think that where we are today will seem like a distant, bad memory. Our progress is going to happen in internet time.
What we do as individuals helps our cause. Just being yourself out and about in the world helps people see that we are pretty much like everyone else and that we pose no threat to anyone. My own transition will be highly visible in my company and that's OK with me; since I will be very visible I am going to take the chance to educate the people around me. They will see that I am just a normal female going about my business and hopefully I can influence what they think about us going forward.
Many hands make light work.
I don't know, I feel pretty uncomfy with a lot of spotlights/sensation. Its not a trend/fad and I wouldnt like to be a postergirl for that
It's hard to balance visibility and privacy for me
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 27, 2014, 01:30:38 AM
With all the productive dialogue we see here on susans it's a crying shame that we're still basically corralled in our insulated bubble.
I think the dynamic would change if "transgendered topics" where explored in grade school curricula such as junior high sex ed. Actually aren't gay and lesbian topics covered these days? I wouldn't know, it's been awhile. ;D
But there's no signal in the noise for people to latch on to like the gay and lesbian community has done with their message. Does the phrase - "out of sight, out of mind." So to our siblings, friends and coworkers who learn about us being "trans" - and from no one other than ourselves - we appear like the lone "man overboard!" off the cruise ship needing to be rescued and processed. Unbeknownst to them the reality is we're quite a handful of people on upper deck just dancing the night away with the others. We're not a rare minority of extremists or social vanguard. There's no need to pity or psychologize us. We're a large and growing group and we need you to know we're getting along fine.
Our problems with acceptance amounts to purely ignorance, an unfortunate consequence of being uninformed. People fear and mock what they don't understand.
Education is key, but not many (or enough) envoys in our midst, so perhaps we need a pilgrimage on Washington? ;D Make a few demands on education? Either way I don't see this situation changing, at least until the old school of thought is out and new school is in. And that I believe, begins with our children.
Speaking to the first sentences, maybe it's because humans have an innate need to belong to a group that has a shared sense of experiences. How many people/groups could possibly have a lifetime of experiences that result from being TG'd? While on a whole the GL community at some point in time must of had some semblance of experiences, those experiences were and still are framed so objectively and subjectively differently that, if my understanding is correct, TGs are largely still unaccepted. It would seem that prejudice still rules the day, but I don't think it can all be blamed on ignorance. People can know that an attitude is wrong, be informed enough about subject, and still be prejudiced simply because they choose to be.
On the other hand, just as Eva Maries posts, as more and more people are becoming educated, the scales are tipping and that pervasive attitude will someday become so unacceptable that it will erode into history, just as many others already have.
"Psychologize"?
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 27, 2014, 01:30:38 AM
I think the dynamic would change if "transgendered topics" where explored in grade school curricula...
...an unfortunate consequence of being uninformed.
being uninformed is unfortunate, but common, even among the transgender population. Just an example:
Transgender is an adjective, not a verb. Because it is not an action, there is no past tense for transgender, thus "transgendered" isn't a word. The -ed indicates past tense, which in context doesn't make sense. Saying "I got transgendered so hard last night!" doesn't work.
This is just one example. The educating has to start from within "the community" and spread outward.
Oriah, there are many adjectives ending in -ed which aren't derived from verbs:
-- varigated foliage
-- abscessed tooth
-- figured maple
-- spotted owl
-- bubbleheaded blonde (sorry, couldn't resist... :blush:)
So "transgendered" is just fine.
Being transgender is very rare. If you're proportionally representing transgender individuals in tv and film then every xth (whatever the proportion is) or so character would be transgender, unless you skew it. It's quite tempting to want to overstate the presence and numbers who are transgender. Too much media coverage and you risk a backlash. Push only as much as it will give and you will eventually reach your goals, although not as fast as some would like.
I am having the same opinion about it Nicolette...too easy to either pay too much or pay no attention to it. We'll just have to accept it'll remain a delicate issue that needs (more) time
Quote from: suzifrommd on July 27, 2014, 10:27:18 AM
Evelyn, I totally agree.
I would also like to see a change in mass media (since that's where people get most of their information). Realistic portrayals of trans people living realistic lives. Well-adjusted trans characters playing ordinary parts in movies and TV shows.
That would go a long way to demystify us and take away the sensationalism.
You might have already caught word of it, there is a new sitcom series starring transgendered actors and actresses slated for production in Canada.
The Switch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNXNddcjZU0
Might be interesting to see how it's received in the states (and internationally).
They actually filmed the first episode of that, like as a promo for it. I think there was a link on Autostraddle?
It seemed okay... I mean I've never really been a huge comedy fan. It felt a little forced in spots, but it was pretty enjoyable in others so idk... it would be neat if it actually got some traction
EDIT: Here is the link to the 'Test Pilot Episode'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGHmzLeugs8
Quote from: JoanneB on July 27, 2014, 10:41:58 AM
Up until the very recent present "Out of sight out of mind" was and still is the ideal. How many instances of "Stealth" topics can you find here on Susans? Sadly, one has to wonder how many of the TDOR statistics are the result of out in the open to in your face trans people being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
On several occasions in the years leading to the passage in Maryland of a TG Rights bill I attended the Senate hearings. One could not help but to wonder how many times between the panel members and especially with the loyal opposition (aka bathroom nutz) were in a rest room or otherwise crossed paths with a trans-woman and had no clue they did?
A good place to start is with the LGB community itself where T is for token. Stonewall occurred during my early teens. To this day we are still not really accepted by them. I love reminding people it were the ->-bleeped-<-s that threw the first punches at the cops. After that they wanted nothing to do with T's and still really don't it seems.
A gay rights bill passed the Maryland Senate and was signed into law years before the trans rights bill. Behind the scenes negotiations got trans issues written out. In essence the LGB(T) block threw the T's under the bus. So much for solidarity.
I am very glad to see trans people being shown in a more positive light then in the dark past of Jerry Springer days. However, the new media never misses an opportunity to sensationalize and titillate any story with a trans (specifically MTF). Oh, I mean any story short of beatings or killings of an MTF which are obviously OK in their minds, no real news. Nothing to see here just keep moving.
Yeah just goes to show how entrenched patriarchy society is; an underlying belief that a man who trades his masculinity is a ripe for ridicule and a public stoning. If this was a matriarchy society, I wonder if the stigma would be reversed?
Quote from: Suziack on July 27, 2014, 01:07:07 PM
Speaking to the first sentences, maybe it's because humans have an innate need to belong to a group that has a shared sense of experiences. How many people/groups could possibly have a lifetime of experiences that result from being TG'd? While on a whole the GL community at some point in time must of had some semblance of experiences, those experiences were and still are framed so objectively and subjectively differently that, if my understanding is correct, TGs are largely still unaccepted. It would seem that prejudice still rules the day, but I don't think it can all be blamed on ignorance. People can know that an attitude is wrong, be informed enough about subject, and still be prejudiced simply because they choose to be.
On the other hand, just as Eva Maries posts, as more and more people are becoming educated, the scales are tipping and that pervasive attitude will someday become so unacceptable that it will erode into history, just as many others already have.
"Psychologize"?
I'd posit prejudice and ignorance go hand in hand, but you're right. Prejudice does rule the day. There's certainly a lot more acceptance of lesbians than gays who are, for instance, showing affection for each other openly in public.
I would say the LGBT lexicon and our representation within is only a stepping stone.
Psychologize is an Evelyn-ism ;D As in trying to be an armchair psychiatrist examining someone.
Quote from: YinYanga on July 27, 2014, 11:21:27 AM
I don't know, I feel pretty uncomfy with a lot of spotlights/sensation. Its not a trend/fad and I wouldnt like to be a postergirl for that
It's hard to balance visibility and privacy for me
Just think in the 80's gays and lesbians where thinking the same thing.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,170017.msg1481599.html#msg1481599 - That article got me thinking about this thread.
Too many are interested in church to make themselves feel special, IMHO. I see more interest in people discovering, somehow, that God really cares about them as individuals, and has "chosen" them over the rest of humanity, rather than an actual interest in taking what they can from religious teachings to live a better life. Unfortunately, it is far easier to elevate yourself, to feel superior, by denigrating others than actual self-improvement. And it is much, much easier to disparage what you do not understand. Once that is done, it is easy to point at those disparaged and say "They are so much worse than me, so I must be good by comparison."
It is far more difficult to disparage what you know, and what is dear to you. So the way forward is, I think, what I see in this article. Though I think this acceptance applies more to LGB than to T, several of the members have been exposed to gay members of their family or community, and find they can still love them as people. LGBs have paved the way, but there is a long way to go.
It's not really a critical mass of our own community we need, I think, but a critical mass of those close to us who do love and accept us. It's from them the seeds of change will spread.
There are fewer of us, so it will still take some time. But as the trans community begins to becomes more visible in the coming years, we need to make a deliberate effort on our part to be people to be loved, and not hated. Show that no matter what they may throw at us, we still love our families, friends, and communities just as much as they do. The acceptance of society will follow after the love of our families, who then share their acceptance with the rest of their churches, social networks, and communities.
We just need awesome allies, we can't win the battle against ignorance without them. I think that's the biggest issue here. The Obama administration support's trans rights. That's the biggest ally we could have right there. We as individuals have to be more vocal in the political system to change the laws for the better in our states. Start changing public opinion through education and being more proactive in our communities. You don't have to necessarily be an activist, just do what you can. Simply having a conversation can make the world of a difference, for a person's perception of the trans community.
The really sad part is that cis privilege allows people to live in a bubble in terms of not having to worry about trans issues. I agree with the trans education being taught in school along with sex ed. If it were I'd probably have come to terms about what I was early and it would have saved me a lot of time. It just doesn't occur to people that there are kids & teens out here that are trans or trans questioning. It's very taxing to be that age and having to navigate those early feelings in addition to body changes and the process of being a teen in school.
I think that things have shifted greatly just in the last 5 yrs. If someone told me a trans actress of color would be on a popular show and the cover of TIME magazine I'd have never believed it. When I was growing up all I saw was the Jerry Springer train wreaks. I never even thought I'd see a trans child on a tv special with Barbra Walters surrounded by a supportive family.
To me things aren't going fast enough. I'm just itching for ENDA to pass in full, for all trans surgeries to be taken seriously and be covered by major insurance companies, and for full federal protections for trans people.
I think attitudes are changing, but slowly. Here in my city in just the past 6 mos 3 trans women of color have been murdered. I knew one of them. She was shot in her home and left for dead. The most recent was the sister of a NBA player. She was killed and left in a field. No arrests have been made in any of the cases. These are the types of things that I'm tired of hearing about. People just don't care as much because to them, and the tone that's being put out there, is that they were all escorts or were "tricking men" so they got what they deserved. We have a very bad reputation when it comes to people reporting crimes as well as providing descriptions and witness intimidation, all this only adds to the problems we face. And here in my city it's always trans women of color who are being murdered. We face higher murder rates than other trans women. This is very scary when I think about how small the community is here. Something needs to be done about this.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.glaad.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Flarge%2Fpublic%2Fncavp_5.png%3Fitok%3D1hAxWZX9&hash=4b14c9fe5197ca489d39c6e20c9d3901c5331e21)
Agreed as a trans woman of color, I have to get involved in activism at some point. I feel a deep wound in my heart every time I hear a transwoman has been murdered/assaulted. It makes me cringe, like what is wrong with people!?
Quote from: Jera on July 28, 2014, 12:18:19 AM
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,170017.msg1481599.html#msg1481599 - That article got me thinking about this thread.
Too many are interested in church to make themselves feel special, IMHO. I see more interest in people discovering, somehow, that God really cares about them as individuals, and has "chosen" them over the rest of humanity, rather than an actual interest in taking what they can from religious teachings to live a better life. Unfortunately, it is far easier to elevate yourself, to feel superior, by denigrating others than actual self-improvement. And it is much, much easier to disparage what you do not understand. Once that is done, it is easy to point at those disparaged and say "They are so much worse than me, so I must be good by comparison."
It is far more difficult to disparage what you know, and what is dear to you. So the way forward is, I think, what I see in this article. Though I think this acceptance applies more to LGB than to T, several of the members have been exposed to gay members of their family or community, and find they can still love them as people. LGBs have paved the way, but there is a long way to go.
It's not really a critical mass of our own community we need, I think, but a critical mass of those close to us who do love and accept us. It's from them the seeds of change will spread.
I guess it's a much higher wall to climb for transsexual understanding. To outsiders we appear as some sort of self-afflicted science experiment like Frankenstein freaks of nature or something. Like walking exhibitions hence the constant media lazy "used to be a man" reporting and sensationalism. Whereas since gays and lesbians keep their body's complete, they haven't seen the same backlash or any reason to be subject to as much scrutiny other than being a simple lifestyle choice. To the average human, being understood as "born that way" in mind is a much smaller leap to take than being "born that way" and wants to create and/or move some very human intimate things around.
This is exactly what I feel like I have to deal with when addressing 'normal' family members.
QuoteThere are fewer of us, so it will still take some time. But as the trans community begins to becomes more visible in the coming years, we need to make a deliberate effort on our part to be people to be loved, and not hated. Show that no matter what they may throw at us, we still love our families, friends, and communities just as much as they do. The acceptance of society will follow after the love of our families, who then share their acceptance with the rest of their churches, social networks, and communities.
I had a curious thought. Even with visibility and acceptance there's still going to be a somewhat 'morbid' interest about what we physically are. That's a given. Because sex and sexuality is what makes the whole world go round. It's going to take at least another generation before we aren't news anymore.
But you know what? By then biotechnology and body manipulation will be all the rage and normal anyway... so go figure?
Well. We can hope.
Quote from: Tysilio on July 27, 2014, 05:12:26 PM
Oriah, there are many adjectives ending in -ed which aren't derived from verbs:
-- varigated foliage
-- abscessed tooth
-- figured maple
-- spotted owl
-- bubbleheaded blonde (sorry, couldn't resist... :blush:)
So "transgendered" is just fine.
No. Actually it is very much
not ok.
Remember when African Americans were called "colored people?" The phrasing implies that something made them that way not that they were born that way. The same principle applies here. Do you know anyone who has transgendered?
I don't want to get in a grammar debate here. Strictly speaking, technically yes you can add an -ed to a noun.
I just personally don't want to go down the road where we have the same debate they have about LG people being born that way or not. The HUGE advantage that the transgender community has right now is that we are following behind women's sufferage, the civil rights movement and the LGB community's fight for their civil rights. They all have shown us what and what not to do. The details matter.
So really, Oriah is right in that we need to start within the community. We need to remember how we have definitely been thrown under the bus many times and are definitely the "token" in LGBT and not do that to each other.
P.S. For reference: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joanne-herman/transgender-or-transgende_b_492922.html
and the GLAAD Media Reference Guide: http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 28, 2014, 01:56:41 AM
I guess it's a much higher wall to climb for transsexual understanding. To outsiders we appear as some sort of self-afflicted science experiment like Frankenstein freaks of nature or something. Like walking exhibitions hence the constant media lazy "used to be a man" reporting and sensationalism. Whereas since gays and lesbians keep their body's complete, they haven't seen the same backlash or any reason to be subject to as much scrutiny other than being a simple lifestyle choice. To the average human, being understood as "born that way" in mind is a much smaller leap to take than being "born that way" and wants to create and/or move some very human intimate things around.
This is exactly what I feel like I have to deal with when addressing 'normal' family members.
That's why I feel like LGB has gained so much more ground, even though it's been LGBT fighting together. Ours is an intensely personal struggle, so that's why it might need a more personal touch, and not activism alone, to get the "critical mass" of allies we need. The metaphoric shouting from the rooftops and streets, parades, events and the like can indeed be seen as exhibitionism. From that alone, it's actually kind of easy to understand why it is so difficult for others to grasp the
internal struggle that defines us.
I don't think I'm alone with complex family issues. Many of our families prefer to hide us as much as we often hide ourselves, and that's kind of the opposite of what we need. They may be able to explain our struggle to other cis people, perhaps better than we ever can.
Quote from: Remember when African Americans were called "colored people?" The phrasing implies that something made them that way not that they were born that way. The same principle applies here.
I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. The term "colored people" was first used around the turn of the last century by African Americans who wanted an alternative to the offensive words then used to describe them. The reason it became offensive in itself is the same one that eventually makes all euphemisms as offensive as the words they replace: the attitude of the majority population toward the referent of the word. Compare "retarded" and "handicapped," both of which were invented to replace terms like "moron" and "cripple;" they too became offensive in their own right, and "disabled" is going the same way, giving rise to abominations like "differently abled" and "developmentally challenged."
In any case, "people of color" has a different meaning from "colored." The latter refers to African Americans, and the former refers to any and all groups who aren't "white."
QuoteDo you know anyone who has transgendered?
Of course not; I never said "transgender" was a verb.
In
practical terms, I really don't care whether "transgender" or "transgendered" becomes accepted usage; language evolves according to the way it's used. In
grammatical terms, "transgendered" is correct. The word is derived from "gendered," which is an adjective meaning "having a gender." For example, one would say "In French and Italian, nouns are gendered;" it would be absurd to say "... nouns are gender."
But ultimately, this will be decided by the invisible tongue of the marketplace. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefiringline.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Ftongue.gif&hash=635dd8fbd198d13e75e7b21e12e5f405e686d654)
Quote from: Tysilio on July 28, 2014, 09:28:02 AM
I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. The term "colored people" was first used around the turn of the last century by African Americans who wanted an alternative to the offensive words then used to describe them.
I'm sorry but this is nonsense. The term "colored" was first used in the 14th century. In North America, it first appeared in the 19th century, a full century before your claim, in the New York Times as well as the US War Department establishing the Bureau of Colored Troops. At the turn of the last century, the US Census used "negroes."
Again, I'll suggest you study your history so you're not doomed to repeat it.
QuoteIn any case, "people of color" has a different meaning from "colored." The latter refers to African Americans, and the former refers to any and all groups who aren't "white."
You are also incorrect here in that "colored" also included any non-white race.
QuoteIn practical terms, I really don't care whether "transgender" or "transgendered" becomes accepted usage; language evolves according to the way it's used. [sic]
But ultimately, this will be decided by the invisible tongue of the marketplace.
And this is the kind of apathy we're facing and what this thread is talking about. We need more people who care. We need more people who can make more people care. Because we're only an estimated 0.3% of the entire population, we can't let the majority decide for us. If we do, we're doomed.
Quote from: JessicaNAgain, I'll suggest you study your history so you're not doomed to repeat it.
The Merriam-Webster entry (I presume you're referencing the
Wikipedia article that cites it) dating the first use of "colored" to the 14 c. has noting to do with its use in connection with race. But if it will make you feel better, I'll retract "first." I was referring to the history of the term in its recent usage in this country, as applied specifically to African Americans. Yes, it has different meanings elsewhere (such as in South Africa, where it's used specifically to refer to people of mixed race, as distinct from "blacks"), but historically, in the US, the term has referred to people of African descent. "People of color," used in that sense, is actually older, dating back at least to the turn of the 19th century.
Quote from: JessicaNQuote from: Tysilio...the way it's used. [sic]
No, sorry, "it's" is correct. It's the contraction of "it is." Unless you had something else in mind?
QuoteBecause we're only an estimated 0.3% of the entire population, we can't let the majority decide for us. If we do, we're doomed.
Really? By a past participle? It seems to me that we face more significant issues, but I understand the attraction of focusing on tiny things that we
might be able to control, as opposed to the tough stuff.
^^ It's all semantics. Back on (my topic!) please. :P