I caught up with a few male friends over dinner recently.
Having been on low dose HRT for a while, it was a bit strange. I found that I could appreciate their interests, understood them, but didn't fully connect whereas I did previously.
Then on the other hand, I also feel uncomfortable around women. Presenting as I do, I can't participate in conversation with women the way that I really want to.
It's not that I don't have friends or can't talk to people. It's just one of the little quandaries I live with living as I am - there is this whole side of myself that I don't show to the world at large.
Like you I can still talk with my male friends but I now relate better to women and, in general, I prefer their company. The conversation and energy just seems more compelling. Male conversations are becoming a little predictable and bland. I no longer feel the need to pretend to be a binary male so am not making as much effort.
I found I fell through the cracks long ago. While men's conversation revolved around football, meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars. I was usually excluded from the women's conversations, as I presented male. I would drift between world's and pipe up when a topic came up that interested me or I knew something about it.
Even thou now I connect with women more nowadays I still do this, gives me a quiet appearance and you know what the say about the quite ones
Growing up with mostly female friends, I find it much more easy to connect to females than males. I've found that, even transitioning to male, I don't know what to talk about with men other than tastes in movies/tv shows or music. At my previous workplace, the guys all seemed to comment on the female customers who come in wearing gym clothes (e.g. form-fitting yoga pants) and it's weird because I look at a person's face, eyes or hair - not even registering their body.
I have had bad experiences with some guys who like to "one-up" others in conversation, to correct others constantly or interrupt me to say the story when I was about to say. I find it rude and annoying - what's wrong with just chatting and not trying to turn everything into a competition or about what's "right"? I've noticed the guys who exhibit these traits are deeply insecure but hide behind the pretense that they're intelligent to boost their self-esteem, even if it means coming across as egotistical.
It was after I talked to this guy, he introduced me to his female friend who was very kind and completely unlike him in terms of bragging and one-upping. It surprised me how much I relaxed and we chatted about many topics casually - something I wouldn't been able to do with guys in general. I think it's to be said if people are super serious about topics and being correct, I won't be able to connect with them easily as someone who is easy-going and doesn't force their opinion on others.
I've never connected with males. My satisfying connections have all been with females.
That's what got me to question my gender in the first place.
Quote from: EchelonHunt on July 27, 2014, 07:37:26 AM
Growing up with mostly female friends, I find it much more easy to connect to females than males. I've found that, even transitioning to male, I don't know what to talk about with men other than tastes in movies/tv shows or music. At my previous workplace, the guys all seemed to comment on the female customers who come in wearing gym clothes (e.g. form-fitting yoga pants) and it's weird because I look at a person's face, eyes or hair - not even registering their body.
I have had bad experiences with some guys who like to "one-up" others in conversation, to correct others constantly or interrupt me to say the story when I was about to say. I find it rude and annoying - what's wrong with just chatting and not trying to turn everything into a competition or about what's "right"? I've noticed the guys who exhibit these traits are deeply insecure but hide behind the pretense that they're intelligent to boost their self-esteem, even if it means coming across as egotistical.
It was after I talked to this guy, he introduced me to his female friend who was very kind and completely unlike him in terms of bragging and one-upping. It surprised me how much I relaxed and we chatted about many topics casually - something I wouldn't been able to do with guys in general. I think it's to be said if people are super serious about topics and being correct, I won't be able to connect with them easily as someone who is easy-going and doesn't force their opinion on others.
I was all male physically, mentally and spiritually for my first 45 or so years. Was a HS football fullback, fought in a war as a US paratroop and was fully male socialized to every extent imaginable. There came a time over 20 years ago that I tired of the exact kind of BS that you are referring to here and I jumped the fence hormonally and had my lower end modified and got rid of the family jewels. So now after 20 years on feminizing hormones coupled with my naturally outgoing chatty personality I have developed quite a number of cis female friends whose company I enjoy. The interesting part of it is that they realize that I am simply an androgynous male who can think and converse with both sides of my brain about anything, I suppose that they accept my appearance as simply a little eccentricity, but I find that women tend to connect more with the inner persona rather than with the physical. In other words they appreciate someone who is emotionally connected and conversant over the visual aspects of one's anatomy. I think I tired of the usual BS hanging with the fellas, "Oh check that chick out, nice ass huh? Oh and those tits, holy ->-bleeped-<-!" It was a kind of mind numbing routine and one had to wonder if they noticed whether or not she even had a face. I found it embarrassing to be around but still have one or two long term male friends, the rest have gone by the wayside as we have little or nothing in common anymore.
Always had made more female friends in school then male friends.
Now to think of it I had 2 male friends my high schools year vs around 9 female.
Quote from: jamienicoled on July 27, 2014, 10:53:38 AM
I never connected with males in the sense of I felt like one of them. However, short of sports... I'm very knowledgeable and can relate to many of the topics guys discus (building & remodeling, cars, guns etc), considering... I grew up in that environment. However, that doesn't "out" me for my past. Guys see me as a woman and simply enjoy a girl who can hang with the boys in conversation. However, I'm truly feminine on the outside and mix great with girls in conversation too, soo...lol Guess the end result is exactly what one would want from a person who felt very uncomfortable around ...and almost NEVER successfully communicated with either sex. Today, I live life extremely comfortable around everyone, as it should be! :icon_joy:
Good post grandma! I have a granddaughter who is 14 going on 19, aren't they fun though?
Quote from: jamienicoled on July 27, 2014, 11:30:45 AM
My oldest is 5... my youngest is almost 1. I had the joy of keeping my 2yo grandson for a week here at our home...(I'm a SAHM) What a workout!! :icon_biggrin: We gave him back on Friday...I'm still recuperating. :icon_giggle:
:D :laugh: :icon_hahano: Don't I know! :icon_bunch:
I've always had a very small group of female friends, I could always talk about really important things with them and could tell very quickly if they were listening.
But interest-wise I connected more with males, I loved sports and other typically 'male' oriented things and I was pretty well accepted as I could physically keep up with them, I can be a bit over the top competitive as well so that helps.
Now if I could only figure out how to tell if a guy is actually listening or not! :laugh:
I've always connected more with, and had many more female friends than male. esp now.. Being on E almost 10months now, I am never seen in male predator mode, or as a threat, with the girls I work with daily. They don't smell the male pheromones.. It's interesting.. Like you see gay male flt attendants palling with the female FA's, I'm right there with them, totally accepted, and I am not out to any of them, I'm just accepted..
Well, I only connect well with either sober alcoholics, a few trusted Christian friends and prayer partners, and the members of this board. Everything else other than with my immediate family just seems like posturing and bull crap, and there is always an undercurrent of tension there. But not in here, this is where I can really let it out and be me and chatty.
There are also one or two special TS people I talk frequently with on the phone, and it is amazing to me how it is so relaxed and natural, where someone actually gets it, and where their support strengthens me to be able to continue to be brave enough to get through another day without the enormity of who I am and am becoming completely overcoming me.
On the male and female side... no, I have always been the odd person out, I identify as neither and have components of both.
Blessings and love to all here. Really.
--Satinjoy
I connect with people whose yin and yang energies are balanced. So, I guess you could say "androgynous", but that doesn't have to be in appearance. Guys who don't make a big deal about "being a man" and conforming to social standards of masculinity, girls who don't make a big deal out of "being a woman" and conforming to social standards of femininity, non-binary people who allow themselves to fluctuate or sit in whichever part of the spectrum without focusing on it excessively. Because I have no interest in traditional "masculine" activities or traditional "feminine" activities, nor do I have any interest in theorizing about gender, so people who make any of those things a significant part of their lives would probably have little to talk about with me.
I tend to be drawn to other people with relatively-low attachment to gender stereotypes, and that tends to bring me to people of whichever gender. There's probably a male-bias (over female) due to certain life experiences, but it has less of a hold now as my knowledge and activities have broadened.
For me I don't think it's as much a matter of gender as the degree to which their gender is expressed in the relationship. I've never been comfortable befriending males who do the overly masculine stuff, nor have I really ever hung out with women who do the totally girly thing. Luckily I've never had much difficulty in finding people whose personalities are not strongly gender influenced.
~ Lyric ~
Personally, I'm drawn to anyone with a worldview similar to mine-so radical queer socialists, usually :)
I tend not to get on with women so much. I can have much of a heart to heart and connection with educated men. I don't really associate with men who are only into sports and all that. The men I do talk to are very open to discussion of the topics I enjoy such as philosophy, history, art, sex, etc. on a very intellectual basis. They are also not afraid to discuss their feelings. I enjoy how men are straightforward and don't try to read too much into what I say.
Males. Definitely. Mainly because I've never experience a male making something ABOUT his sex, unless it was a joke(i.e. overly manly man), which I honestly find funny. My longest lasting friendship at the moment is with a female, but that's only because she rarely if ever has turned a subject into about her being female.
It's also just easier to talk to guys in general. I rarely feel like I have to worry about offending men, whereas with women it's always a concern. Example, making perverted, suggestive flirts to a guy is generally something I don't sweat, but with a girl there are serious repercussions. It's just been drilled into my head since I was young, I can't even tell a girl she has a cute handbag or something without feeling like a creep.
Oddly enough, I've never connected with other androgynous people that well either. No particular reason other than I just don't know what to say, and I've never met another androgynous person with whom I've had anything else in common.
QuoteI don't really associate with men who are only into sports and all that. The men I do talk to are very open to discussion of the topics I enjoy such as philosophy, history, art, sex, etc. on a very intellectual basis.
As a fencer, I take issue with you implying that sports are not on an intellectual basis. ;)
I connect with both males and females. But with the males it feels more forced and fake. With females more genuine and real. Hard to explain really but most stuff guys seem to talk about more the crap out of me.
Quote from: Justfornow on July 29, 2014, 02:22:02 PM
As a fencer, I take issue with you implying that sports are not on an intellectual basis. ;)
But you only have to poke the pointy end at someone right? And afterwards you use the foil as a skewer for grilling meat?
:P
irl it's more women. it's mostly because of my curves, can't connect with men who see me as an object of sexual desire. though there are a couple guys that i can connect pretty well with.
online, i feel much more at ease talking to guys. online, i can choose to be me, and i've found that insults taste a whole lot better when they're directed at the real me, than at this person everybody sees me as irl. i much prefer being called tiny and weak over dumb and blonde.
I've always been more comfortable around guys.
Even being raised as a girl, their culture eludes me. ??? I never did fit in well with them.
Quote from: Arram on August 01, 2014, 11:35:25 PM
I've always been more comfortable around guys.
Even being raised as a girl, their culture eludes me. ??? I never did fit in well with them.
Arram,
My spouse has told me the same thing about herself when I questioned her about her not wanting or caring to have girlfriends like so many other born females, as it turns out any female acquaintances she has are initially friends of mine that I chat with. She sees me as her androgynous guy and it seems to work for both of us since I'm not into labels and gender boxing.
Quote from: Shantel on August 02, 2014, 12:55:18 PM
Arram,
My spouse has told me the same thing about herself when I questioned her about her not wanting or caring to have girlfriends like so many other born females, as it turns out any female acquaintances she has are initially friends of mine that I chat with. She sees me as her androgynous guy and it seems to work for both of us since I'm not into labels and gender boxing.
It's always nice to be reminded that I'm not the only one :)
I'm glad it works for you guys. ;D Labels can have their uses, but they're rather limited when compared to the vast complexity of human experience.
I have tended to get along with females alot more, I only have one long term male friend whom I have known for 23 years and counting, but our communication is very sporadic like we will talk on the phone every few months now. I went to his wedding a few months ago and in away viewed it as my letting him go as a friend so he can focus on the new chapter in his life. I should add he is supportive but I worry that I would be seen as the freak friend by his other friends and so I am drifting away from him abit as a way to protect him I guess. But yes most of the time my friends have been and are women. I have have one or two online male friends and a tonne of female online friends.
I've always been able to and prefer to connect with females on a much deeper level. I became phobic of talking to girls around puberty and felt inferior to them. My social phobia was much more intense back then but I found it extra hard to talk to females or would just freeze. I don't feel inferior any more and I'm able to socialise with anyone that I want to talk to. :)
In general with women more than with men. I find it hard to have a 'loose' conversation with men, not sure what to talk about. With women I just tend to go with the flow and would starts a conversation much easier
That said there are exceptions, the way someone expressed themselves is important, Ive met women that gave me shivers and men I'd want to hug in admiration
I've always been more comfortable around women than men. I was never shooed away when my female friends had "girl talk" and my opinion was asked frequently. My eyes have been asked for on more occasions than I can count when it came to outfits and matching shoes/jewelry/accessories, even with the women in my family. Aside from a few very close guy friends, most of my closest friends are female and they were excited when I came out.
Even romantically, I just...can't date men. I don't know why, but I can't find that connection. It doesn't help that as a woman I identify as a tomboy/Xena type, but will still dress the way I want (not in typical tomboy clothing, more akin to "girly girl" clothing, I love skirts and dresses) while still liking what I like (eg: wrestling, action movies, war/military movies, etc). I'm a walking paradox of sorts.
i very rarely have male friends and generally don't connect with men at all. i also feel very uncomfortable around them because i want to be read as male, but i know they don't see me that way.
the vast majority of my friends are girls. i enjoy the company of women a lot more. i think part of that is because i was socialized as female and that's something that's hard to change.
In theory I connect equally well with men and women, but in practice the majority of my friends have been female.
Who I connect with more really isn't gender-specific; I don't think. If they are male then we'll get along best if humor stays constant between us and we don't discuss sexual escapades (of which I have none), the "joys" of having dangly bits, and they are not trying to swindle me into watching football or going to a strip club. It's important to keep things intelligent, funny and emotionally relatable. If they are female then it's the same deal: no sex talk, keep things funny and intelligent, and no drama. I guess I do find it a lot more comforting around women. I always have, really, but everyone still gets equal opportunity. We either have chemistry or we don't. The more shallow your attitude on life is, the less we're going to hit it off.
Quote from: sororcaeli on August 18, 2014, 02:21:06 PM
Who I connect with more really isn't gender-specific; I don't think. If they are male then we'll get along best if humor stays constant between us and we don't discuss sexual escapades (of which I have none), the "joys" of having dangly bits, and they are not trying to swindle me into watching football or going to a strip club. It's important to keep things intelligent, funny and emotionally relatable. If they are female then it's the same deal: no sex talk, keep things funny and intelligent, and no drama. I guess I do find it a lot more comforting around women. I always have, really, but everyone still gets equal opportunity. We either have chemistry or we don't. The more shallow your attitude on life is, the less we're going to hit it off.
Another excellent response Arin, you're batting 300 today!
Quote from: Shantel on August 18, 2014, 02:41:04 PM
Another excellent response Arin, you're batting 300 today!
Hehe, thanks! Sometimes I just have really good days. Plus, my creative juices are starting to flow again, and that kicks my wordplay in high gear.
I also have ADHD meds these days which have slowed my brain down to a tolerable speed, so my clarity of thought is also in full force. I have a feeling I'll have to give them up, though, once oestrogen starts to dominate.
I enjoy a wide circle of friends and acquaintances but feel closer to folks living over the rainbow. Some straight and cisgender people get it but those of us who have lived in a marginalized minority status get it even better. I find gender mostly irrelevant to friendship and love.
I prefer to hang around people who are
emotionally mature (http://www.theheroschoice.com/2011/01/01/how-to-become-emotionally-mature/) regardless of gender, but women tend to form an emotional attachment to me easily because I lead by example (since I have a male presentation). I seek people who are able to receive and give back on a balanced level.
I avoid people who:
- Are conversational narcissists (http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/05/01/the-art-of-conversation-how-to-avoid-conversational-narcissism/)
- Are unable to take critical feedback (http://lifehacker.com/5957850/how-to-take-constructive-criticism-like-a-champ)
- Are energy vampires (http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2013/11/14/how-to-avoid-being-drained-by-energy-vampires/)
- Are emotionally abusive (http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2013/02/20/signs-of-emotional-abuse/)
- Have poor boundaries (http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/10-fundamental-lessons-onboundaries-in-relationships-part-1/)
I like to talk to people who know how to ask questions and like to get to know me. I like people who can take critical feedback so we can work on our relationship (regardless of whether its a friend or significant other). I like people who give back positive energy to me in various ways and make my life brighter. I like people who respect me and do not emotionally abuse me. I like people who have good boundaries as they tend to be more emotionally stable.
Because of varying and changing emotional maturity levels, we sometimes outgrow our friends or other people we know, including our parents possibly. We therefore need to always reach out to find friends who are on the same wavelength as us, who support us, and who help us to live sustainable lives. I always try to guide my friends down the right path when they're having troubles. In essence, I like to reach out to people regardless of gender and make meaningful relationships that are beyond the superficial.
Quote from: tatiana on August 19, 2014, 11:51:55 PM
I prefer to hang around people who are emotionally mature (http://www.theheroschoice.com/2011/01/01/how-to-become-emotionally-mature/) regardless of gender, but women tend to form an emotional attachment to me easily. I seek people who are able to receive and give back on a balanced level.
I avoid people who:
- Are conversational narcissists (http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/05/01/the-art-of-conversation-how-to-avoid-conversational-narcissism/)
- Are unable to take critical feedback (http://lifehacker.com/5957850/how-to-take-constructive-criticism-like-a-champ)
- Are energy vampires (http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2013/11/14/how-to-avoid-being-drained-by-energy-vampires/)
- Are emotionally abusive (http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2013/02/20/signs-of-emotional-abuse/)
- Have poor boundaries (http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/10-fundamental-lessons-onboundaries-in-relationships-part-1/)
I like to talk to people who know how to ask questions and like to get to know me. I like people who can take critical feedback so we can work on our relationship (regardless of whether its a friend or significant other). I like people who give back positive energy to me in various ways and make my life brighter. I like people who respect me and do not emotionally abuse me. I like people who have good boundaries as they tend to be more emotionally stable.
Because of varying and changing emotional maturity levels, we sometimes outgrow our friends or other people we know, including our parents possibly. We therefore need to always reach out to find friends who are on the same wavelength as us, who support us, and who help us to live sustainable lives. I always try to guide my friends down the right path when they're having troubles. In essence, I like to reach out to people regardless of gender and make meaningful relationships that are beyond the superficial.
You win the Lovliest Person Of The Day at Susan's Place Award for that fantastic post. I would totally hug you if I could. I thought I was alone. :P
Quote from: Lyric on July 27, 2014, 10:57:24 PM
I've never been comfortable befriending males who do the overly masculine stuff, nor have I really ever hung out with women who do the totally girly thing. Luckily I've never had much difficulty in finding people whose personalities are not strongly gender influenced.
I can relate somewhat.
Generally, I have no issues connecting with people of any gender.
EDIT: tatiana said is best.
Quote from: Lyric on July 27, 2014, 10:57:24 PM
I've never been comfortable befriending males who do the overly masculine stuff, nor have I really ever hung out with women who do the totally girly thing.
Same here. It's all about balance, and those two extremes just feel uncomfortable. I have a room mate who is the epitome of hyper-femininity. Here's her Tumblr: http://riacatherine.tumblr.com She's an odd combination of histrionic personality, child-like immaturity and meme-worthy adorableness. She's almost constantly in Princess Mode. And then there's one of my guy roomies who isn't really "macho", but he's full of testosterone. He listens mainly to thrash and punk music, wears a spiked vest, and always plays with swords or his crossbow. Neither personality really vibes with me enough to want to hang out with them, but we get along well enough to coexist.
I've always been drawn towards femininity with an edge; the kind of personality that embraces and expresses their femininity with grace, but speaks their mind with ferocity and stands up in the face of oppression. The masculine form and personality doesn't appeal to me at all. It's not something I've ever resonated with. I have very "manly" friends, but we don't hang out if they're going to watch a game, go to a sports bar, or go to a strip club. And yeah, they'll talk about the typical stuff around me, but all I can really do chuckle or roll my eyes with a grin.
If I'm hanging out with any of my female friends I definitely feel a lot more comfortable, but they don't really go into super girly mode. We just talk about life, personal goals, dreams, relationships, TV shows, food, art and make each other laugh as much as possible.
It's really kind of weird to me to relate so much more with women and not have any romantic or aesthetic interest in men. I'm not saying it
is weird as some kind of absolute. It just initially seems a bit contradicting when you're transitioning MTF; except in my case I'm far less feminine in demeanor. It outweighs any masculinity I have, though.
So, basically, I have the brain of a lesbian. I wish more people could understand how that's possible instead of saying,
"so you're basically just an effeminate straight dude, then." I'd say there's a
huge difference between simply being more emotionally receptive + less testosterone-powered and
feeling/knowing that there's a girl inside who is grudgingly piloting a Teselecta that's stuck in the form of a male.
(By the way, that's a Doctor Who reference. The Teselecta was android spacecraft that could shape-shift into any life form convincingly. Sorry, it was too great of an analogy not to use.)An effeminate cis male isn't going to suffer dysphoria, peruse the internet for everything trans related, join a trans community forum, and decide that HRT is something beneficial for their mental health. I also highly doubt that an effeminate cis male would create a blog for the purpose of viewing and reposting trans and lesbian subject matter, women's goth fashion, androgynous and feminine portraiture, and artistic photographs of flowers. But who has the time to think about all those specifics, right? If your hips are animated when you walk, your posture isn't all over the place, your personality is far left of manly, Monday Night Football sounds like a great excuse to hide away with a book and a cup of tea, and yet you find women attractive, then you're just a straight guy who just spent a little too much time with your mommy as a child. ::)
Anyway, sorry about the tangent. I never fail to have a novel's worth of thoughts. :P