Most of us here should have a tuned in trans radar, so if you notice a trans woman in public, do you clock her thinking about "the bad" (what got her clocked) or "the good"?
Can "the good" exist if she's clocked?
I would probably consider both. I'd notice the bad first and then go on to thinking about the good.
I saw a beautiful woman a few months ago walking down the street with a couple of her friends. they passed by and I could hear her talking . I go wow, I hope I can look that believable some day. She wasn't trying to hide her voice talking to her friends
Of course the good can exist if she is clocked.
In any case, if I am out and about and I see someone I strongly suspect is a transwoman, I don't say or do anything different than I would with anyone else really. I might look at her and think about her features that I like and don't, after all trans or cis I am always sizing up other women at least a it, since I am attracted exclusively to women. Especially with woman I find attractive I try to figure out their sexual orientation but in my expedience it is impossible to figure out from just looking at someone.
Ditto Hikari,
When I notice someone, check out their style and their presence. If there is something negative, I'll watch and make sure it's something I don't repeat myself
Mostly I think "Oh, cool - someone like me! I wonder if she'll be my friend..."
Then I ignore them. Which is all well and good as I don't feel that clockable and folks staring isn't a good thing unless you know they're also trans*.
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 07, 2014, 09:38:43 AM
Can "the good" exist if she's clocked?
Many non-passing women are very beautiful.
When I clock someone in public, I think about the common experiences she and I probably shared.
I actually have a hard time "clocking" trans people in public. There's been a couple of times where I've seen someone that I thought was trans, but couldn't tell for sure.
It's really easy to "clock" someone and nitpick them to death when they're in a trans support group or social group and therefore you can know for sure that they're trans. Their "male" features or "female" features become way more obvious, and it's easy to judge them for it. But out in the wide world, where you can never know for sure if someone is trans or not, it's really hard to say yes or no definitively. Especially if they have a good voice. (That is seriously the ONLY dead giveaway.)
The first time I met someone who I believed was trans, it was at a poker table while I was working in Atlantic City. She had a lot of telltale "trans" signs such as a bigger head, high square hairline with thin hair, wide shoulders, narrow hips, brow bossing, a male-ish chin, and big hands. But here's what made me doubt. Her voice was perfect. And if she was trans, then she must have been LONG post-transition, because she wasn't nervous or paranoid at all, she just sat and blended right in with the two other women at the table. So again, I thought she was trans, but I don't know. Maybe? I couldn't tell for sure because she fit in so well. I kept my mouth shut. That's what I do every time I think I see a trans person in public. Because when they blend in so well, odds are that they're stealth and that "clocking them" would be a very unwelcome experience.
Second time I met someone that I thought was trans in public, it was at a job interview. And there was a guy there with a very small feminine build, and a feminine young-looking face. And when he spoke it kinda sounded like a lot of trans men sound, where although the pitch is perfectly in the male range, the resonance and inflection are still a bit androgynous. But as usual, there was no way for me to tell for sure. His facial features were male enough to be cis, still a bit of a masculine chin and a bit of a thick brow, his voice, although FtMish still could have been within the cis range, his build was small but not unquestionably small, so again, ultimately I had no way of knowing for sure.
Another time, I was driving home from a fireworks display, and I was having "one of those nights" where I was looking at the women on the sidewalk as I drove by, trying to convince myself that my shoulders weren't too big. There was one woman who I looked at and saw that she had a more male-ish build, and I actually told myself "see? That woman has bigger shoulders, and that doesn't stop her from looking completely female." I watched her for a moment, and then about 10 seconds later it occurred to me "Wait a minute! That's Anne Marie." (My trans friend.) So once again, there was someone with features that I usually nitpick to death because I know she's trans. But until I realized it was her, I assumed she was just a cis-woman with a more androgynous build.
Again... it's hard unless you know for sure that someone is trans. Once you can definitively say "yes, this person is trans," then their birth sex's features are obvious and you can nitpick them to death, but without knowing for sure, you can only guess.
There's been many trans people at my support group who I thought would never pass visually just by looking at them, who in fact never get questioned in real life.
This is why I'm so adamantly against those who say that trans women "never" pass. BS. Even I have a hard time clocking people even though I know exactly what to look for. (My therapist even laughed at me when I told her about 'brow bossing' and all of these other trans signifiers that I was worried that I had, saying "Carrie, people aren't that observant. I think it's fascinating that you know all of these things, but I never knew about them until you taught me about it. Everyone else just takes people at face value.")
I have seen several- how to put it? I would suspect they were transladies anyway...
I just have an eye for detail anyway though, I wouldn't put too much value on my clocking anything. I just study the person until I figure out what exactly was so interesting in the first place. In the case of transwomen, it's usually because they're really thin and have zero visible breasts but like the last one I saw, have very beautiful hair up in a girl pony-tail or something. Unfortunately for the ladies, I'm not sure there's a quick cure to being thin with no breasts (uh, apart from forms...).
Well, I sometimes see a person and wonder if they are transgender because of certain features. Like, I saw a woman on the train and she was taller, had thinner lips, kind of rougher facial features. I wondered for a moment if she was transgender. But then I looked again and realized that I don't know and I will never know unless she were to tell me. My moms lips are as thin as hers, and I know women who are bigger. She was older so that could explain the roughness of her features, she looked like she smoked, which would age her face too. But after not too long I always realize that all I can ever do is assume, either way she is clearly a woman, cis or trans, and it is none of my business.
I have to wonder how many cis people get "clocked."
Quote from: birkin on August 07, 2014, 02:03:46 PM
I have to wonder how many cis people get "clocked."
Prolly some, especially butchy type women. But not always. You can be butch and femme, femme meaning pretty facial features. People generally clock trans women by the adam's apple. Luckily, I don't have one. Most of the trans women at my support group are pretty unpassable, but that's usually because of presentation or demeanor or facial hair. Most of 'em don't take hormones either. I don'tthink any of them like me very much. I'm pretty passable most of the time and only get clocked cause of facial hair but even then it's a toss up. Generally when I hear people clocking me it's two people arguing "that's a woman, I'm telling you." I can dress pretty boyish attimes. Trans women don't seem to like me in person and I swear it's the boobs. One women literally told me this. "Listen, bit¢h, not eveyone can have huge boobs like you." It leaves me jaded and feeling erased and isolated.
I think the reason trans women get clocked is a lack of effort on shortcomings whether they be voice, mannerisms, or this or that. The adma's apple can't be helped so that sucks, but eveything else can. Transtion is work. And presentation is everything. Work it. The thing I hate about people who know I'm trans is they will sometimes bring up peopel they clocked as trans and make fun of them and expect me to join in on the fun. Not while there. In restrospect. I guess it's because I dont suffer these things but I never know what to say. I usually say nothing. I never join in I can say that. I'd hate myself.
I always feel sad because usually, the ones I clock are the ones who don't take care of the hair on their heads, faces, and bodies. In fact, seeing them actually spikes my dysphoria because I'm always afraid (as a big woman) that I'll be clocked just as easily as they are.
There's one poor girl I see scraping by downtown from time to time. She is (or was) a student at my university and complained about how she was constantly getting clocked, but she made no attempt to keep her face, arms, and legs shaved and wore the same dress day in, day out and wouldn't hear any of it even when she asked for advice on how to pass more readily. Last time I saw her, she was reading Tarot cards for bus money.
There was another girl who had a large bald spot and made no attempt to cover it. Just seeing her made me terrified about trying to pass because I have a high hairline. I haven't seen her in a while though and I don't know what's become of her.
The hair thing holds true in my case. I now keep my hair obsessively shampooed and conditioned because if I let it go, I ALWAYS get clocked.
I have a degree of passing privilege, when I do see a sister not as fortunate (or not there yet in terms of presentation) far be it from me to judge. What I usually do instead is scan the surrounding public and notice that no one else seems to have noticed anyway, so I put the fact I've noticed her down to my knowledge of trans passing pitfalls. Usually, since no one seems to be noticing, I do try to see what is working for her.
I've certainly clocked more than my share of transpeople in public. Sometimes it's painfully obvious, but I applaud each and every one of them who have the intestinal fortitude to present themselves to the world as they truly are.
Just last weekend my wife and I were having lunch out and I noticed that the woman sitting next to me was also trans. I mean, it was beyond obvious, but I admired the way that she carried herself.
A couple of months ago we attended a fundraiser for Lambda Legal. There were several women there that I had pegged as trans, but there were (as I found out later) at least four more that were absolutely unclockable. A couple of them looked simply amazing. I have also met a few at electrolysis that would never set off a transwoman's transdar in a million years. Sometimes it's kind of funny when I get clocked in public by another transwoman, but nobody else seems to be on to us and we just have a private smile. We should have a secret wink or something.
Another odd thing is that my wife has been called "t****y" to her face, and she's cis.
Interesting responses.
The reason I asked is because I remember on Wed sitting on the train a lady whom I suspected was trans was seated across to the left of me. I just looked up and caught her looking at me with wide curious eyes. It was fully occupied seating, nobody else was looking at me. It was so ironic. I am presenting andro wearing jeans and a white Kenneth Cole jean shirt, she was wearing a girly jeans outfit. I have a pretty good eye and was very sure she was trans but didn't think much and just went back to closing and resting my eyes. At the next local stop I looked up again and she was still staring at me. So I figured she's trying to clock me and maybe I should have returned the favor because I already knew. ;D
So today I got to thinking, if you clock someone in public, do you fixate on all the negatives that got them clocked? When your eyes are casually scanning the CIS mob and you catch people who are trans then something about them must have made them stand out. It's only a short time frame, what else can you really fixate on other than the negatives that got them clocked? I can say "you look fabulous!" but the fact is they're not quite passing.
As for me, I'm sure if I was passing in spades, I wouldn't have received that 'study' by the other trans woman.
Personally I think it is utterly rude for a trans person to stare at another. Seriously, what was her problem?
To paraphrase a cliché "The first rule of being trans is to never out another trans person".
Most trans people I know are able to clock each other even if the general public has no clue, it's the little things.
The first thing I focus on is the reason(s) I noticed and then clocked the person and then I make a mental note to try to avoid those myself. The second thing I do is focus on what he/she does well so I can learn from it, obviously I'll do this courteously by glancing like any woman would check out another woman.
Note that I make a distinction between noticing and clocking, if someone dresses down and keeps a low profile they are much less likely to get noticed and hence clocked but in my books there is a difference.
Personally I don't care that much if people clock me, I have not been on hormones long enough to really pass without makeup and a wig but that does not stop me from living my life and if someone clocks me so be it, more trans visibility can only lead to better acceptance.
The first rule of trans club is that you do not talk about trans club.
The second rule of trans club is... you do NOT TALK ABOUT TRANS CLUB.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on August 07, 2014, 05:34:27 PM
The first rule of trans club is that you do not talk about trans club.
The second rule of trans club is... you do NOT TALK ABOUT TRANS CLUB.
There's a trans club? Why am I always the last to know about these things?
Oh, right, it must be because nobody ever talks about it. Never mind...
I don't worry about clocking other trans people myself. I am too busy living my life and shopping. I feel if you get to this point you are a little too obsessed about being trans. :)
I've noticed a certain part of town along the public transportation I use has a lot of transgender people. I've noticed about 4 transwomen, but 3 of them I noticed because they had grown out their facial hair to have it zapped. The other one I don't know how I knew, but I just did even though she looked female. I confirmed because she was talking to her friend and they were talking about the number of trans people in the area. They clocked me, but I need a haircut because I look butch lesbian-ish.
Honestly if I'm confused as to the gender of someone I try gender neutral pronouns. If I think they are trying to present one way or the other I do try to gender them correctly.
You have to ride public transit to play the clocking game, thousands of people bored to death with nothing to do but scrutinize each other :)
I stopped playing when I bought my bike but it seems I'm still on the playing board for others to scrutinize.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 07, 2014, 05:58:57 PM
I don't worry about clocking other trans people myself. I am too busy living my life and shopping. I feel if you get to this point you are a little too obsessed about being trans. :)
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 07, 2014, 05:58:57 PM
I don't worry about clocking other trans people myself. I am too busy living my life and shopping. I feel if you get to this point you are a little too obsessed about being trans. :)
Don't think it has to do with this, you can be doing your every day thing and notice all kinds of things around you, this just happens to be one of many. You're not out looking for it (whatever the occurrence may be), it just so happens to come along and catch your eye and interest for maybe but a moment.
I've noticed a few trans either while out shopping as well as at work. The way I see it, if I could tell they were trans, then they weren't quite passing. Otherwise I wouldn't have noticed this oddity that fell borderline between the sexes, if she passed then she would have walked by seen like any other cis-gender woman. But why they got clocked by me, over-dressed, too much make-up on, really tall or big, overall facial features including beard shadow that of a man and uncomfortable looking, that unease that I remember having myself many years ago. Not that I care either way, just an observation as any other. Been there myself at the start. Can any other trans possibly clock me while I'm out there, possibly, but I don't care. They keep their mouth, I do the same, just another stranger passing by among many.
I have spotted one very tall woman, who I thought could be trans. But there again, we more easily notice because we know what to look for. And to be honest it's always very hard to be 100% sure. People are not very observant, and most trans people will blend in nicely, unless they have a very deep/high voice, adam's apple, facial hair that gives them away. I think it's hard to tell.
I saw a woman earlier today who I strongly suspected was trans (though I wasn't 100% on it). The only thing I took in was excitement that there were other transsexuals in public around me. I'm always happy when I can confirm with my own surroundings that I'm not the only one.
I use to work in an area called boy's town in Chicago. All year round there are trans abundant and its just a non-issue
I'm another who thinks you never really know when it's a stranger and you don't get their story... but I tend to focus on the parts that I'm jealous of, like "Wow, she's really pretty, or I wish I had her thin build or were that short."
(And yeah, in another lesson of "you just never know," when people meet my wife and me knowing *one* of us is trans, they guess her about 90% of the time. She's kind of strong-featured and heavy-boned, and doesn't dress girly - so while to me she looks unquestionably female, I'm definitely the more femme of us.)
I forgot an important aspect of my story about meeting the trans woman earlier...
The real important thing I was watching was "wow, not a single other person notices. She's been called "one of the women" at least a few times, the women are sharing pictures of their kids with her, and it's very clear that not a single other person suspects that she's trans."
That was a really huge moment for me where, for the first time ever, I started to believe that I was really going to be able to achieve social acceptance even if I didn't completely pass as cis to my own eyes. I wasn't full-time yet at the time, so it was a big deal for me to see that.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 07, 2014, 05:58:57 PM
I don't worry about clocking other trans people myself. I am too busy living my life and shopping. I feel if you get to this point you are a little too obsessed about being trans. :)
This..
Quote from: Megan Joanne on August 07, 2014, 06:20:16 PM
Don't think it has to do with this, you can be doing your every day thing and notice all kinds of things around you, this just happens to be one of many. You're not out looking for it (whatever the occurrence may be), it just so happens to come along and catch your eye and interest for maybe but a moment.
I've noticed a few trans either while out shopping as well as at work. The way I see it, if I could tell they were trans, then they weren't quite passing. Otherwise I wouldn't have noticed this oddity that fell borderline between the sexes, if she passed then she would have walked by seen like any other cis-gender woman. But why they got clocked by me, over-dressed, too much make-up on, really tall or big, overall facial features including beard shadow that of a man and uncomfortable looking, that unease that I remember having myself many years ago. Not that I care either way, just an observation as any other. Been there myself at the start. Can any other trans possibly clock me while I'm out there, possibly, but I don't care. They keep their mouth, I do the same, just another stranger passing by among many.
Guess I'm just not interested enough to look closely enough.. The only trans women I can claim to have noticed while out and about are those that I know are trans. I'm sure I've seen others, just never noticed..
Actually, that's not entirely true.. I was at a LGBTIQ club last year and overheard some people talking about a trans woman, I spotted her just from their convo.. And then realised I'd seen her earlier in the night and not though much beyond, 'She's not my type..'
Quote from: Megan Joanne on August 07, 2014, 06:20:16 PM
Don't think it has to do with this, you can be doing your every day thing and notice all kinds of things around you, this just happens to be one of many. You're not out looking for it (whatever the occurrence may be), it just so happens to come along and catch your eye and interest for maybe but a moment.
I've noticed a few trans either while out shopping as well as at work. The way I see it, if I could tell they were trans, then they weren't quite passing. Otherwise I wouldn't have noticed this oddity that fell borderline between the sexes, if she passed then she would have walked by seen like any other cis-gender woman. But why they got clocked by me, over-dressed, too much make-up on, really tall or big, overall facial features including beard shadow that of a man and uncomfortable looking, that unease that I remember having myself many years ago. Not that I care either way, just an observation as any other. Been there myself at the start. Can any other trans possibly clock me while I'm out there, possibly, but I don't care. They keep their mouth, I do the same, just another stranger passing by among many.
Exactly. I won't have to write this after all.
I read your mind Evelyn. ;)
clocking? this is a new term for me. if it means judging or comparing then let me tell you something. i suck so much at making certain judgments about people. ive hung out with gay guys and known them for years and never once suspected they were gay when it was blatantly obvious to evey other human with working eyes. for me i see it this way. "that girl has stronger features" "that boy has a really femme features, hes cute" "omg he can make anything look good i want his style". these things register differently to me. :3 i make judgments more based off of opinions, personality and actions.
If i saw a trans girl in person and i knew it then id smile and think "good for her" :D
I'm in the Chelsea area of Manhattan all the time. I see many transwomen especially when going to Callen-Lorde since many of us get our HRT from there. I live in NJ, and there are not as many here, but I've seen many that I'm pretty sure are in my area. In either location, no one in the general public really notices. Most people are just too busy in their everyday lives to notice and don't even know what to look for.
When I do clock someone I look to see what is working for them and what isn't. I've often smiled at them and get a smile in return most of the time. I would never out anyone as I would not want to be outed either.
I just get really self consious that I might be staring, or they may think I am staring. I am not a fan of people staring at me, why would I hand that insecurity to someone else?
Usually though, nobody else seems to notice, so, I guess I look at both why she is passing and why I clocked her. So when I do come out in public I know what to look for in myself. Only emulating cis-women probably wouldn't work, for me anyway, there's no way I could be that naturally femme (I am a few months from 30 and probably starting HRT within this month ;D). I need to know the " What-not-to-do's" more than the "wow, that dress is super cute!"
This is a touchy subject for me.
Usually when I'm out and about I don't see many trans women just because there aren't many in my area. Yes, there have been a times I was able to notice another girl is trans (I hate the term "clocking," or "clocked" and refuse to use it). For me the things that usually give someone away are manurisms ie: the way they walk, their body language, etc., and especially nervousness only because I know what to look for, as others have pointed out.
There have been a few times where I was out with my girlfriends some knowing my history, some who didn't, that I've been very disappointed and in some instances even appalled by my friends attitudes toward transwomen who weren't as tiny and feminine built as those of us who are more fortunate. During these few times my girlfriends I was with would notice someone is trans by obvious physical attributes. They either had a large head, a high hairline, big hands and feet, they're overly tall, a prominent adams apple, deep brow, or noticeable beard shadow, but mostly features they couldn't help. Because I'm lucky enough to not have these problems, they would start talking about them and how they look in front of me, expecting me to agree with them and join in the conversation. I was shocked my so called friends would behave this way in front of me. They tell me I'm different because of how I look. Of course I beg to differ and told them how ashamed I was to be seen with them. On several occasions when this happened I was horrified and left their group because of how they acted. And as a result of these encounters I've lost a lot of friends. I just have no use for anyone who takes pleasure in belittling others trans or not because of physical attributes they can't help.
I also believe as others have pointed out; It is easier for us to spot the little things in other trans people because we as trans ourselves know what to look for. The average cis public doesn't though, and generally aren't paying attention.
However, at a trans group meeting up north I've even had one other trans woman become angry with me during a conversation she brought up about passing. She looked at me kind of funny and stared saying: "well we can't all be 5-5 and 120 pounds." She was one of those who would out herself by constantly putting herself and her looks down. Actually I thought she was quite pretty.
Ali :icon_flower:
^^
Quote from: Allyda on August 08, 2014, 03:06:26 PM
However, at a trans group meeting up north I've even had one other trans woman become angry with me during a conversation she brought up about passing. She looked at me kind of funny and stared saying: "well we can't all be 5-5 and 120 pounds." She was one of those who would out herself by constantly putting herself and her looks down. Actually I thought she was quite pretty.
Ali :icon_flower:
5'-3.7"122 lbs (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi62.tinypic.com%2F5nrg36.jpg&hash=e565d6b35922a7efcd987407ef0b9e75f8569d4d)
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 08, 2014, 03:34:07 PM
^^
5'-3.7"122 lbs (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi62.tinypic.com%2F5nrg36.jpg&hash=e565d6b35922a7efcd987407ef0b9e75f8569d4d)
Yea I noticed Evelyn we're about the same size. I'm actually 5-5 & 118 at the moment trying to get to 108 if I'm lucky. I worry about my booby's though losing weight. I finally got to a small 32B and would hate for them to shrink.
Ali :icon_flower:
Quote from: Allyda on August 08, 2014, 03:06:26 PM
I also believe as others have pointed out; It is easier for us to spot the little things in other trans people because we as trans ourselves know what to look for. The average cis public doesn't though, and generally aren't paying attention.
This is the core truth. For cis people they have this little subconscious mantra "I'm cis, you're cis, we're all cis. He's a he, she's a she, we are we and we are cis!" Of course they don't use that terminology because about 99.9% of cis people have never heard the term "cis" let alone know what it means...but hopefully you get what I mean. Most cis people aren't out there being the gender police, they presume everyone is the gender they present as. In their mind they think a trans woman will look like a drag queen parody, or like Klinger from M.A.S.H. or something really obvious (I can't say what they would expect a trans guy to look like, presumably they don't even know or believe female to male even exists).
It's the people who are more gender savvy who are more aware of differences.
I've said quite a few times now that passing is as much about confidence and presentation, not just how you "look". Yes it helps to have female features, and I've been relatively lucky in that department but I'm 6'3", never going to have lush
natural hair and a voice that definitely isn't female...it amazes me every day how I actually pass, but it seems I do so I'm not taking it for granted - I have to work at it every day too...even when I don't feel like it. Having been full time for over four months I'm still constantly aware I'm not cis but they don't notice, despite my "non-normative failings" because of that mantra going through their mind. I present "cis enough" it would seem.
Also I'm really gratefully for iPhones, iPads, Kindles, etc since most people have their nose stuck in those most of the time. They're more likely to get run over crossing the road than notice I'm trans.
Quote from: Ms Grace on August 08, 2014, 04:17:38 PM
This is the core truth. For cis people they have this little subconscious mantra "I'm cis, you're cis, we're all cis. He's a he, she's a she, we are we and we are cis!" Of course they don't use that terminology because about 99.9% of cis people have never heard the term "cis" let alone know what it means...but hopefully you get what I mean. Most cis people aren't out there being the gender police, they presume everyone is the gender they present as. In their mind they think a trans woman will look like a drag queen parody, or like Klinger from M.A.S.H. or something really obvious (I can't say what they would expect a trans guy to look like, presumably they don't even know or believe female to male even exists).
It's the people who are more gender savvy who are more aware of differences.
I've said quite a few times now that passing is as much about confidence and presentation, not just how you "look". Yes it helps to have female features, and I've been relatively lucky in that department but I'm 6'3", never going to have lush natural hair and a voice that definitely isn't female...it amazes me every day how I actually pass, but it seems I do so I'm not taking it for granted - I have to work at it every day too...even when I don't feel like it. Having been full time for over four months I'm still constantly aware I'm not cis but they don't notice, despite my "non-normative failings" because of that mantra going through their mind. I present "cis enough" it would seem.
Also I'm really gratefully for iPhones, iPads, Kindles, etc since most people have their nose stuck in those most of the time. They're more likely to get run over crossing the road than notice I'm trans.
I agree 100% with you Ms. Grace, and definitely second your last statement, lol! Especially in parking lots. Just at my local WinnDixie yesterday two young girls almost got ran over because they had their noses into their phones and weren't paying attention to where they were walking.
Ally :icon_flower:
Quote from: Ms Grace on August 08, 2014, 04:17:38 PM
Also I'm really gratefully for iPhones, iPads, Kindles, etc since most people have their nose stuck in those most of the time. They're more likely to get run over crossing the road than notice I'm trans.
Haha, that great! :laugh:
So true.
I always think about the bad.....but that's me, I never see the bright side of anything!
Though the times I do noticed un-passable trans, I also see that no one ever notices. But then I start thinking about that as well....do they and are they just being nice. ugh!! I can never be positive LOL
Some of the positive feelings I do have our somewhat a narcissist type....its not that I think I am a narcissist but if I do see someone obviously trans, I compare all their features that don't pass very well and feel good that I at least don't have many of them. I should feel sad for them and part of me does, but it also helps me feel better about myself.....ya, narcissist!! Oh well!!! When I picked my new name I should of named myself Narcy!!
I think some of this feeling comes from me working very hard to be the woman I am and not rushing things. Even though I didn't rush and was being gendered female when presenting 95% male I look back at some of those pics (though few) and think WTF was I thinking. But than I think back at my cross-dressing days and don't feel as bad....partly because back then I was trying to portray a woman and not be one.
I do get a feeling of disgust at times when I see another trans that has either rushed things or gone over board with makeup and clothing choices. The reason for this, is because I am often grouped with this same type. I'm not one to like cross dressers that go out and about town expecting to be treated like a cis women, I never did this when I considered myself one. I don't have anything against cd's, but don't feel I should be lumped together with someone that is. I hated myself when I thought this is what I was. After finally accepting the fact I wasn't cross dressing but rather trying to be who I was inside, the cross dressing basically stopped. Yes I still did some in private and when I finally did go out in public it was nothing like in my cd days, very androgynous at first and even after over 3 years FT I occasionally wear a dress or skirt, but because I want to and not because I feel I need to, to be a woman.
My thoughts and feelings about crossdressers are completely different.
The way I see things there is very little room for men to have any female traits or a fem side, yet most men are not 100% male, there are shades of grey like with everything in life.
A cis female has much more leeway to express herself more masculine, hence tomboys etc.
Just because my dysphoria is so strong that I'm willing to risk everything in my life to transition does not mean I can judge people who are not willing to put everything on the line.
Now some crossdressers don't dress their age, go totally overboard, etc but think about it, they were never teenage girls so they never got to learn from their mistakes and given that fact that many of them only dress once or twice a month not only don't they get a lot of experience but they don't form the same relationships with other women that we do and learn from them.
I feel like by distancing ourselves from and judging them we are judging ourselves, I'd rather try to help them express themselves better.
Quote from: Just Shelly on August 08, 2014, 05:11:50 PM
I always think about the bad.....but that's me, I never see the bright side of anything!
Though the times I do noticed un-passable trans, I also see that no one ever notices. But then I start thinking about that as well....do they and are they just being nice. ugh!! I can never be positive LOL
Some of the positive feelings I do have our somewhat a narcissist type....its not that I think I am a narcissist but if I do see someone obviously trans, I compare all their features that don't pass very well and feel good that I at least don't have many of them. I should feel sad for them and part of me does, but it also helps me feel better about myself.....ya, narcissist!! Oh well!!! When I picked my new name I should of named myself Narcy!!
I think some of this feeling comes from me working very hard to be the woman I am and not rushing things. Even though I didn't rush and was being gendered female when presenting 95% male I look back at some of those pics (though few) and think WTF was I thinking. But than I think back at my cross-dressing days and don't feel as bad....partly because back then I was trying to portray a woman and not be one.
I do get a feeling of disgust at times when I see another trans that has either rushed things or gone over board with makeup and clothing choices. The reason for this, is because I am often grouped with this same type. I'm not one to like cross dressers that go out and about town expecting to be treated like a cis women, I never did this when I considered myself one. I don't have anything against cd's, but don't feel I should be lumped together with someone that is. I hated myself when I thought this is what I was. After finally accepting the fact I wasn't cross dressing but rather trying to be who I was inside, the cross dressing basically stopped. Yes I still did some in private and when I finally did go out in public it was nothing like in my cd days, very androgynous at first and even after over 3 years FT I occasionally wear a dress or skirt, but because I want to and not because I feel I need to, to be a woman.
Quote from: Ms Grace on August 08, 2014, 04:17:38 PM
This is the core truth. For cis people they have this little subconscious mantra "I'm cis, you're cis, we're all cis. He's a he, she's a she, we are we and we are cis!" Of course they don't use that terminology because about 99.9% of cis people have never heard the term "cis" let alone know what it means...but hopefully you get what I mean. Most cis people aren't out there being the gender police, they presume everyone is the gender they present as. In their mind they think a trans woman will look like a drag queen parody, or like Klinger from M.A.S.H. or something really obvious (I can't say what they would expect a trans guy to look like, presumably they don't even know or believe female to male even exists).
It's the people who are more gender savvy who are more aware of differences.
I've said quite a few times now that passing is as much about confidence and presentation, not just how you "look". Yes it helps to have female features, and I've been relatively lucky in that department but I'm 6'3", never going to have lush natural hair and a voice that definitely isn't female...it amazes me every day how I actually pass, but it seems I do so I'm not taking it for granted - I have to work at it every day too...even when I don't feel like it. Having been full time for over four months I'm still constantly aware I'm not cis but they don't notice, despite my "non-normative failings" because of that mantra going through their mind. I present "cis enough" it would seem.
Also I'm really gratefully for iPhones, iPads, Kindles, etc since most people have their nose stuck in those most of the time. They're more likely to get run over crossing the road than notice I'm trans.
This especially and all the rest I can agree with. Nice post!
Most people do have a perfunctory casual observation. Unless you really stick out somehow, they won't notice or care. (unless in my example, supremely bored like on transit as antonia pointed out ;D)
I think I look fugly.
But that's because I still present a guy. Yay for me... NOT!
But it's okay, I would like to pass, but I dunno if I ever will and it's really unpredictable. So constantly reflecting about is is useless and often results in whishful thinking.
I would like to add;
On the subject of dressing one's age here I feel there are many misconceptions. In my opinion rather than one's age how one dresses should compliment their body type, rather than detract from it. Just because a woman is older shouldn't mean she can't wear a mini skirt or tank/halter top. If you look good in it, it's comfortable on you, and you can pull it off wear it regardless of how old you are.
I feel the same way about hairstyles. Back in the 80's when a woman reached 50 it was time for a short haircut and a poodle perm. While that may work for some women it's not me. I don't have a problem spending the time it takes to care for my long locks and I'll avoid the stereotypical older woman's hairdoo for as long as I'm able and maybe beyond.
Just because I'm older doesn't mean I have to look older.
Ali :icon_flower:
Quote from: Allyda on August 09, 2014, 01:43:04 PM
I would like to add;
On the subject of dressing one's age here I feel there are many misconceptions. In my opinion rather than one's age how one dresses should compliment their body type, rather than detract from it. Just because a woman is older shouldn't mean she can't wear a mini skirt or tank/halter top. If you look good in it, it's comfortable on you, and you can pull it off wear it regardless of how old you are.
I feel the same way about hairstyles. Back in the 80's when a woman reached 50 it was time for a short haircut and a poodle perm. While that may work for some women it's not me. I don't have a problem spending the time it takes to care for my long locks and I'll avoid the stereotypical older woman's hairdoo for as long as I'm able and maybe beyond.
Just because I'm older doesn't mean I have to look older.
Ali :icon_flower:
Oh LOL, reading your post made me feel dumb because I thought this was about our own feelins about our passability, but it is about others. Anyways what you said is true. There are lots of pre conceived ideas about growing older, just bcuz you grow older doesn't mean you have to stop doing things you have always enjoyed.
Quote from: Allyda on August 09, 2014, 01:43:04 PM
Just because a woman is older shouldn't mean she can't wear a mini skirt or tank/halter top.
I love how I look, but if I ever did this they would pass laws to REQUIRE I cover up! ;D
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 09, 2014, 02:11:49 PM
I love how I look, but if I ever did this they would pass laws to REQUIRE I cover up! ;D
Awwwe Jess I'm sure your exagerating. :icon_confused2: I bet you could surprise yourself with the right outfit. Remember it should compliment your body type, not detract from it. Many girls both cis and trans buy something just because it looks good on the rack, only to find out it doesn't look good on them. When buying outfits to get the best pick for what looks the best on you, they need to be tried on. That is, unless it's a sun dress or something you have experience wearing. I've noticed even thrift stores now a days have fitting rooms.
Ali :icon_flower:
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 09, 2014, 02:11:49 PM
I love how I look, but if I ever did this they would pass laws to REQUIRE I cover up! ;D
They would only pass that law because all the guys would be drooling over you and there would be none for anyone else and all the ladies would hate you out of jealousy!
I try not to do this, but sometimes the obvious ones I can't resist. Most times, I try to be really humble about "passing" in public because I know that I'm one those lucky girls who don't have to do much to pass. But occasionally, I get the really stuck up girl and I rip into her like a hot knife through butter simply because I just don't like the arrogance.
Just the other day, I had an encounter with a person who I thought was MTF. I was trying not to stare at her neck to see if there was a scar or adam's apple. I could tell she had some FFS, don't ask me how. I noticed she had big shoulders and no ass whatsoever, but her voice was 100% female, so it could have just been my "trans-dar" giving a false alarm.
If there's one thing that really gives people away, it's the voice. There's a retail spot I go to sometimes where a gorgeous girl works, she sounds like a gay guy everytime. Another memorable possible MTF works in a fashion boutique in a really gay part of town (where I am looking to move to soon). I happen to frequent this establishment from time to time, again there's a gorgeous girl who sounds like a whiny gay guy. It's really tough to not start asking them questions and/or advice, as it is of course none of my business.
Quote from: Christine Eryn on August 10, 2014, 12:16:00 PM
Just the other day, I had an encounter with a person who I thought was MTF. I was trying not to stare at her neck to see if there was a scar or adam's apple. I could tell she had some FFS, don't ask me how. I noticed she had big shoulders and no ass whatsoever, but her voice was 100% female, so it could have just been my "trans-dar" giving a false alarm.
If there's one thing that really gives people away, it's the voice. There's a retail spot I go to sometimes where a gorgeous girl works, she sounds like a gay guy everytime. Another memorable possible MTF works in a fashion boutique in a really gay part of town (where I am looking to move to soon). I happen to frequent this establishment from time to time, again there's a gorgeous girl who sounds like a whiny gay guy. It's really tough to not start asking them questions and/or advice, as it is of course none of my business.
Funny, I pass every day without even thinking about it with my atrocious voice. My voice isn't deep mind you and has little resonance. But I can safely say it's not in the ideal female range. Many cis women have voice problems from things such as being a heavy smoker for a number of years, or as what happened to me, suffering a horrible accident. Sometimes a woman's voice loses pitch just from age or other health related reasons. I know many here place a high priority on the voice, but I'm the exception to the rule. I never get stares, strange looks, etc., after I've had to speak in public and believe me as an IS transwoman who's lived the majority of her entire life in between genders I know what those strange and funny looks of doubt are all too well, yet since I went full time and have began my full transition I never get them even after speaking.
Yes, I am doing my best to work on my voice to make it better and I have managed to bring my pitch up some however this is recent. The accident I suffered in kinda limits what I'm capable of. I just wanted to point out that you can't always go by a woman's voice to determine whether she's trans or not, because many cis women have voice problems from a multitude of reasons lowering their pitch and resonance toward the masculine range.
Ali :icon_flower:
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 07, 2014, 01:35:26 PM
Many non-passing women are very beautiful.
When I clock someone in public, I think about the common experiences she and I probably shared.
Excellent!
I crossed paths with someone in an aisle while shopping the other day. First, I noticed she was a taller and bigger than me, and really gorgeous - a term I rarely use. She crossed over to the next aisle and turned back down it, just as I was turning around. For a mere fraction of a fraction of a glance we locked eyes, and it was an exchange of one of those, "I know", "I know you know," and I know you know I know..." moments, where time is frozen. Then, time started flowing again, and we continued on our own paths.
I felt that that, in a sense, she had acknowledged me in a special, kind way.
My great "Sanity Test" advice about passing is to tell folks to seriously look around at other women in the checkout que Friday nights or Saturdays at the supermarket. Real women, doing real things, having a real life. How many of them "Don't Pass"? Heck, back in the day of 2 pack a day smokers, even the voice :o
Outside of a trans support group, or LGBT event setting, I haven't a clue of is she or isn't she.
This reminds me of stories told by cis tourists who've been to Thailand....'seen MTF in stores, daily life, bars, markets etc... over there, so feminine, you couldn't tell'....etc.
Well, if they really couldn't have told...they'd seen cis females.
^^ or clocked by their voices. There's also the body language give away.
Why "clock" anyway? There are trans people everywhere. They look how they look, we look how we look. It's so disappointing to hear trans people talk about how "painful" it was when judging someone else's appearance, or this critical assessment of clothes, and voice, and whatever. I think it's our personal choice to decide how and to what extent we "transition" (just to use that term for convenience sake for the moment). We should only judge when we're asked.
I saw another trans woman at the grocery store. She only stuck out to me because of her build, but she was smiling and happy. After that passing glance, I looked around and no one was staring at her or anything. They saw a woman and continued their way.
Quote from: Acodé on August 14, 2014, 04:06:42 PM
I saw another trans woman at the grocery store. She only stuck out to me because of her build, but she was smiling and happy. After that passing glance, I looked around and no one was staring at her or anything. They saw a woman and continued their way.
Truthfully, this^^___^^ is what most people see regardless of build or even voice. Just another woman getting through her day.
Quote from: kayg on August 14, 2014, 08:42:16 AM
Why "clock" anyway? There are trans people everywhere. They look how they look, we look how we look. It's so disappointing to hear trans people talk about how "painful" it was when judging someone else's appearance, or this critical assessment of clothes, and voice, and whatever. I think it's our personal choice to decide how and to what extent we "transition" (just to use that term for convenience sake for the moment). We should only judge when we're asked.
I'm also forced to agree with this^^___^^. In an earlier response I outlined how appalled I was at girlfriends of mine who knew my history ridiculing another transwoman in my presence. In fact we're no longer friends because of that incident. Regardless we all have our bad features we aren't proud of, so do ciswomen. It isn't right not even in the least to judge others trans or not by their appearance.
Ali :icon_flower:
The more time goes on, I'm feeling that being transgender is not the enemy. If I see someone I know is an MtF, I'm just glad I know because someone who looks like they came right out of utero 100% female, I'm not so sure.
I went into a video game store with my son today and the clerk who helped us was a trans girl. I immediately thought of this thread.
I clocked her in 5 seconds, but only because I know what to look for and have trans stuff on my brain 24/7 right now. Her presentation was really good...definitely past male fail and well on her way to blending in. And her voice was impressive.
I really wanted to compliment her in some way...then I realized that saying nothing and treating her like a normal nerdy girl working in a video game store was really the best compliment I could give.
Quote from: katiej on August 17, 2014, 12:58:54 AM
I really wanted to compliment her in some way...then I realized that saying nothing and treating her like a normal nerdy girl working in a video game store was really the best compliment I could give.
This makes you amazing!!! Reading this made my night :)
Quote from: Hikari on August 17, 2014, 01:13:44 AM
Quote from: katiej on August 17, 2014, 12:58:54 AM
I really wanted to compliment her in some way...then I realized that saying nothing and treating her like a normal nerdy girl working in a video game store was really the best compliment I could give.
This makes you amazing!!! Reading this made my night :)
Agreed. I'd hope someone would treat me this way if they ever realised I was trans, fellow trans or not.
Quote from: katiej on August 17, 2014, 12:58:54 AM
I went into a video game store with my son today and the clerk who helped us was a trans girl. I immediately thought of this thread.
I clocked her in 5 seconds, but only because I know what to look for and have trans stuff on my brain 24/7 right now. Her presentation was really good...definitely past male fail and well on her way to blending in. And her voice was impressive.
I really wanted to compliment her in some way...then I realized that saying nothing and treating her like a normal nerdy girl working in a video game store was really the best compliment I could give.
Curious, what was it about her that gave her away? A physical feature or something about her body language? Her movements? Did you sense confidence? Did she look at you in the eyes or kept them downward?
Shoulders, hips, hands, facial features...basically the stuff we can't change. But her presentation was really good. Voice was perfect, mannerisms completely female, good eye contact. She was very comfortable as herself.
The overall package was good enough that I doubt she gets clocked very often. As Grace said recently, most people have the mantra "I'm cis, you're cis, everyone is cis." So unless something major is out of place, the vast majority just assume everything is normal. So this girl would easily blend in now. And given a bit more time on HRT, even we'd have a hard time clocking her.
I've discovered that, for myself at least, choice of clothing goes a long way towards whether I am clocked or not. I have a few tube skirts that I adore and they show off my slowly budding figure with the right top. And I am almost never clocked wearing those. However, a pair of women's jeans? Completely different story. I get looks and I'm pretty sure I've been clocked that way before.
I am hoping that further weight loss will change that but at the same time I love skirts and dresses anyway so if that's my best bet in terms of presentation, I won't be put off by it.
I'd encourage others to think about altering presentation a bit to de-emphasize some of the male aspects we can't change. A bracelet on the wrists, a ring or two, clothing that complements your appearance. Experiment and find what works for you. :)
As for people in public, when I see someone I am pretty sure is trans, I say nothing, except when I am at trans centric events (like our city trans support group's monthly socials). There we can talk freely because most of us know one another and we're there for a reason related to us being trans.
I probably shouldn't even comment here because I don't pass and never will, frankly it has never been important to me. But I do have acute trans-dar and clock all sorts both male and female types and would never outwardly acknowledge their trans-ness. Only one time did I see a darling young trans woman working in a shoe store, she smiled at me because of course she had clocked me instantly and I winked at her and that was the extent of my public acknowledgement of any trans person. There are some trans-women who are trying to pass and are having a miserable time of it walking like a man with long strides and feet shoulder width apart, body language that is obviously male. Something inside me says that it would be nice to help them correct those deficits, but I keep quiet and go about my business, they will have to figure it out for themselves.
Quote from: Shantel on August 17, 2014, 12:35:58 PM
There are some trans-women who are trying to pass and are having a miserable time of it walking like a man with long strides and feet shoulder width apart, body language that is obviously male. Something inside me says that it would be nice to help them correct those deficits, but I keep quiet and go about my business, they will have to figure it out for themselves.
That's probably for the best. Your advice would be valuable, but it could damage their self confidence...however unrealistic it is.
If I see a real cutey that I was sure was trans, I might actually approach them, except in a more amorous way. ;D
No seriously, if I see someone who I think I might actually connect with, I would chat it up. We already have some level of rapport.
There is another transwoman here in town and I've had my former manager and her daughter say something about the transwoman's behavior and attitude and they said that it was odd and that they've never seen me be the same way. I took it as a compliment.
And I don't try to clock anyone, although there are a couple people that have been in the store regularly that I couldn't really tell you if they were male or female.
^^ Interesting point. Would anyone here clock a trans woman who was acting "obnoxiously" trans? ;D
Quote from: katiej on August 17, 2014, 12:58:54 AM
I went into a video game store with my son today and the clerk who helped us was a trans girl. I immediately thought of this thread.
I clocked her in 5 seconds, but only because I know what to look for and have trans stuff on my brain 24/7 right now. Her presentation was really good...definitely past male fail and well on her way to blending in. And her voice was impressive.
I really wanted to compliment her in some way...then I realized that saying nothing and treating her like a normal nerdy girl working in a video game store was really the best compliment I could give.
If I may ask, what was it that immediately made you think she was trans??
I have come across a few that after I knew, I noticed some of the traits I at first brushed off as just a women having some muscular traits....and I've noticed some immediately because of some of the same traits, but the voice, height and overall build usually gave them away sooner.....and then there are some, that are because of the over exaggeration of femininity!!
I am stealth and one of the reasons I am is because if I wasn't, I am positive everyone would look for any manly traits I may still have.....and it wouldn't be that hard if looking closely.
I honestly don't think anyone would....trans or not. Or maybe I'm just lucky it never happened before....since I have heard about some that have been outed publicly.
I don't worry much about passing these days.....hell if I can go to a water park and pass thousands of strangers in a string bikini bottom then I think I must be doing something right. On the other hand it does depress me that I have no cleavage or butt to speak of...and that does set me apart from 95% of all the other women (and children!!). Sure I do get a glance here and there, and I am a bit more conscious of looks I may receive.....but I remember some of the looks in my in-between stage so I know what type looks to look for.
Some of the looks I was getting were down below, it was only after I switched to a different bottom because the halter string for the top of my other suite broke.....I thought it may be because I was coming undone. I'm not sure why I seem to get a couple of looks then and not before with a different bottom! The second one was a bit smaller so maybe it was that....I definitely know I wasn't coming undone. Thank God....since my bottom ended up coming off at the end of one of the water slides!!!
Shelly, it was the broad shoulders, big hands, lack of hips, and slightly man-ish facial features that gave her away. Basically the stuff that she can't really change. But her voice and overall presentation were spot on. So I doubt she gets clocked very often. I just know what to look for and am thinking about trans issues 24/7 these days.
The only place where I consistently clock people are at my endo appointments.
Other than that, even if I do notice, I mentally acknowledge that person and go on my way. I do quickly catalogue what is and isn't working in that persons presentation, but I don't stare.
What had me scratching my head once was getting served by a guy in the menswear department once. Flamboyant gay speaking voice so to speak, and full femme makeup on (really nicely done as well). Was kind of awesome in how he didn't give a stuff, but I worried about how long he'd last at the job.
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 17, 2014, 04:16:06 PM
^^ Interesting point. Would anyone here clock a trans woman who was acting "obnoxiously" trans? ;D
Are you asking if we'd notice them or if we'd say something? If it's a stranger with no other connection, I'd probably mind my own business in either case. But it would be different if I had a real reason to talk with them and open up. I tend to go into parent mode with people who need help. My kids are young (the oldest is 12), but age isn't really the issue. I can assume the role of parent with just about anyone who is in need of some parenting...if you know what I mean. ;)
Quote from: katiej on August 17, 2014, 11:02:10 PM
Are you asking if we'd notice them or if we'd say something? If it's a stranger with no other connection, I'd probably mind my own business in either case. But it would be different if I had a real reason to talk with them and open up. I tend to go into parent mode with people who need help. My kids are young (the oldest is 12), but age isn't really the issue. I can assume the role of parent with just about anyone who is in need of some parenting...if you know what I mean. ;)
Sure do Katie. On rare occasions I'll do the same thing^^___^^ Momma Ali! But I would talk to her only after she was out of the public's eye for I wouldn't want to draw attention to her or embarras her in any way, only help her if I'm able.
Ali :icon_flower:
To answer the question that titles the thread, sometimes I think one, and sometimes, the other.
Some people do not care if they are clocked, some people try too hard to pass.
I know I draw very little attention any more, even in the day time, until I open my mouth... but I like to talk. I do my best to dress my age and appropriately.
I am not the girliest thing on the planet and I do not often wish I was.
To blend in, it helps to not draw attention.
I fully expect my fellow trans folk to clock me more easily. I expect I can do the same to them. And sometimes, my mind is blown. Someone does not have to be hot to pass.
I get clocked by the good. I am very passable and the only thing that gives me away sometimes is my mannerisms as they are a bit "gay" but I do get clocked for my beauty, my breast implants and just my demeanor.