Hi, Guys!
As you know, people who don't like us find various strategies for opposing transgender rights. One of the most common ones is to deny that ->-bleeped-<- exists. There are various ways of doing this. E.g., we're not really trans. We're just screwed up because of the way our parents raised us. If we could find the right shrink, he'd "unscrew us up", and then we wouldn't be trans any more.
Another way of denying the existence of ->-bleeped-<- is one I've heard quite often from certain cisgender women, former tomboys. They'll tell you all about their rough-and-tumble days when they were little: "I dressed like a boy, I played with the boys, I really wanted to be a boy."
Inevitably, though, they reach puberty, the hormones kick in, and they start behaving like girls. And they always seem to be fairly embarrassed by their former tomboy ways and days. But they insist that boyish behavior is just a phase that "girls" should grow out of.
Now how exactly to explain the difference between a transboy and a tomboy? Going on my own experience, I could explain that ->-bleeped-<- isn't a phase—unless you want to regard birth to death as a phase. And I could talk about the difference between gender identity and gender expression.
But in a way, this is a question that we girls aren't equipped to answer because we never have to. We don't have cisguys telling us, "When I was little, I used to wear dresses and play with dolls and have tea parties with the neighbor girls, but I eventually grew out of it." If there are guys like that (and who knows, maybe there are), they won't admit it now.
So I was wondering if some of you guys have your own way of addressing this question. What specifically would you say to a former tomboy who's claiming that there's really no such thing as a transboy?
Wanting to be a boy is pretty accepted in childhood because the concept of tomboys exists, but your description of puberty as where the transgender experience parts ways with the experience of tomboyish cisgender women is spot-on. Everybody let me act male when I was growing up, and then when I had hips and boobs my behavior started being seen as transgressive.
I don't know what to say, though. Tomboys want to be who they are and might wish they could be real boys, but I think most of them don't feel like they already are boys.
One of the arguments I got when I first came out was that if I could change how society treats girls then I would be able to be a girl. Like I was only transitioning to get away from the social constraints of being female. I believe in equality and I think girls at any age should be able to dress however they want and play sports and be high-ranking professionals in any field and have all the same opportunities as men, but I don't feel like a girl. When people confronted me with this line of reasoning, I never had any clever responses and just had to insist that I can't change this part of my identity.
The age thing is hard to get away from. I assume that younger transitioners face this kind of talk of being in a "phase" more than older people do, but waiting to be taken seriously can be a deadly prospect. Those who are comfortably cisgender aren't being treated as if they need to be mature before they can know if they are a boy or a girl.
I would ask a former tomboy who doesn't believe in transboys how she knew she was really a girl. That doesn't solve anything but it can put her in the right headspace for trying to understand what it's like to not live as what you know you are.
Quote from: Felix on August 09, 2014, 05:15:47 AM
The age thing is hard to get away from. I assume that younger transitioners face this kind of talk of being in a "phase" more than older people do, but waiting to be taken seriously can be a deadly prospect. Those who are comfortably cisgender aren't being treated as if they need to be mature before they can know if they are a boy or a girl.
Thanks very much for your reply, Felix. I find it quite enlightening.
While all of your reply is very good, I've picked out the above quote because I think you're right about the age difference. Given that I'm on the verge of old age and decrepitude, I don't get challenged on my gender for that reason. But it's a fact that younger people can be given a hard time.
E.g., here in Ireland legislation to recognize transgender rights has just begun the process of consideration in our parliament. Initially the bill proposed that transpeople couldn't be recognized as trans until they were 18. A bit of a protest has succeeded in lowering that age to 16. But from what I understand, people under 16 will still have no right to be recognized as trans. They will still have to go to school as cisgender, e.g. And when 16-year-olds want to be recognized as trans, they will have to have their parents' approval and the certification of two medical professionals that they're mature enough to make the decision that they are in fact trans.
Imagine if a 16-year-old cisgender person had to have parental approval and medical certification that they were mature enough to decide for themselves that they really were a boy or girl. People would consider that outrageous. But in the case of transpeople, it strikes them as perfectly logical for some reason. They seem to think that because they're confused, we must be as well.
I try not deal with people like that because I don't have a very good temper, but if I did, I would probably start by asking them why they wanted to be a boy. For them, it's usually the social/gender role aspect. Like their mom would never make them wear dresses or something. Then I guess I'd try to explain body dysphoria to them. I dunno.
People always told me that I would grow out of being a tomboy. But when puberty hit, I still didn't change. I was told that I needed to change after puberty and I refused. I was asked by many, "Can I put makeup on you?" or "Want to try on this dress I got?" My answer was always the same, NO, Thank You. I was pestered until I would just walk out of the room and not come back in for any reason. I would get into fights with people because at times they just wouldn't leave me alone about it. I've had a few family members make me feel bad just because I didn't like girly things, it was terrible because I didn't understand why I didn't like those things. I only knew that I didn't want to do it and that I was not going to do it no matter how much people bothered me about it. It's like my mind controlled everything despite what my body was telling people. I stayed true to my inner feelings about not doing things people wanted me to do. I'm glad because having other people put guilt on me was very frustrating. Now that I know that I'm male inside, I'm glad that I did what I did when I was younger because if I had caved in I would have seen myself as a pushover and would have felt bad in general. Staying strong was important to me.
I agree that puberty seems to be a defining moment in telling whether a child is a tomboy or actually trans.
I actually had a very irritating conversation with a childhood friend when I came out to her. She'd been a tomboy growing up but definitely identifies as a woman now (albeit not a very feminine woman, but that's perfectly ok, isn't it?). When I told her about how I'd felt growing up and how it got worse at puberty, she shot back very defensively: "But what does that make me?! I was a tomboy too!". She reacted as if I was invalidating her identity by coming out as trans. I found myself having to comfort her and reassure her about her gender identity.
That's one of the reasons why I haven't spoken to her in months.
So yeah, if you're a tomboy when you're little but start embracing your femaleness at puberty, you're a tomboy. If you're a tomboy when you're little but your whole life goes to hell when your body starts to betray you at puberty, you're probably trans.
Gender expression and identity being different is a good start. Traits arbitrarily being sorted into masculine/feminine is a good talking point. The fact that virtually everyone actually has a mix of traits is a good talking point. There are many grown (trans and cis alike) women who exhibit not just one or two but many "masculine" traits but hate being mistaken for men. There are many anecdotes of butch women becoming irate when someone mistakes them for men, despite being dressed in masculine clothing, masculine haircut, masculine body language, masculine hobbies, etc. They identify strongly as women while having masculine inclinations. Gender, presentation, and interests are separate things, it doesn't matter which toys or clothing someone likes as a kid or an adult.
Dysphoria, particularly related to puberty, is a good talking point. Puberty generally isn't easy and fun for anyone, but compare the words cisgender women vs. trans men often use to describe an estrogen-fueled puberty, and their overall attitude/experience with it. There's stark contrast. I've heard cis women use phrases like "sacred rite of passage" to talk about puberty. Compare that to "hellish" "nightmare" "torture" etc. Some cis women describe initial discomfort with body feminization, but it's always temporary (a "phase"), often due to outside factors like sexual harassment rather than their innate reaction to their body changing, and rarely if ever (that I've noticed) is it described as a suicide-driving level of discomfort.
Quote from: Foxglove on August 09, 2014, 07:00:27 AM
They seem to think that because they're confused, we must be as well.
That's a big part of it, I think. They can't quite grasp the reality of a male brain/mind inside a female body. They assume there is no such thing as a transboy because they cannot fathom what it would be like to experience it personally. At least once in their life, every cis person has enjoyed at least one activity that is traditionally reserved for the other gender. Since they've personally experienced that, they assume an extreme version of it is the entire transgender experience. As such, we are no more than tomboy girls and feminine boys.
As for your question, I like your idea of explaining the difference between gender identity and gender expression. Tomboy behavior is about gender expression. The trans* experience is about gender identity, which goes all the way down to the core of one's being.
Thanks to everyone for their input. There's lots of good stuff being said here, like this:
Quote from: zero.cool.crash.override on August 09, 2014, 11:26:58 AM
At least once in their life, every cis person has enjoyed at least one activity that is traditionally reserved for the other gender. Since they've personally experienced that, they assume an extreme version of it is the entire transgender experience. As such, we are no more than tomboy girls and feminine boys.
just to take one example. I've definitely got some things to think about now.
This is a really excellent discussion. I think tomboys "want" to be boys and we "are". But that's not necessarily clear early on sometimes. I didn't know it was possible to be something my body would say I wasn't.
It's interesting with these young trans boys now who are 3-10 years old, pre-puberty. Recall the latest viral youtube video. I see a lot of antagonism about them, not due to their gender expression (unlike young trans girls or gender non-conformity in young boys who have antagonism towards their gender gender expression). The attitudes seem to be that they boys are "just" tomboys who will grow out of it. I think perhaps some will (perhaps this could be an experience that stays in their youth), but quite a few will not, and will become trans adults.
BTW, some trans* masculine folks identify as "tomboys". I've at least met two. Doesn't confuse me any, as I think they are just non-binary folks who have chosen this term. But it is perhaps another wrinkle. :)
--Jay
I know a woman who is straight, adult, and still very much a tomboy. But I do agree with the observation that a lot of girls seem to lose their tomboyishness around puberty. I think it has a lot to do with social pressure.
Anyway, as I see it tomboy and transgender are different things all together. Tomboys enjoy things associated with boys, and maybe even want to be a boy socially because they think they'd fit in better with the guys, but they don't actually want a guy's body. They're happy being women, they just struggle to find a place where they fit socially, I think.
To illustrate the difference, I was having a conversation with the aforementioned tomboy and she was trying to figure out why I was just so darn feminine lol (she thinks I'm cis). I don't know if you could have called me a tomboy when I was young, there was definitely an aspect of boyishness but I was never ubermasculine, whereas she was very masculine. Yet I am the one who transitioned. It's because it has nothing to do with gender roles, at least it shouldn't.
I had my barbies but also had hotwheels. I think that was the confusing factor since I could do whatever, then puberty hit and I retreated into fantasy worlds in my head until recently.
I have had two very different reactions from family members because of tomboys vs. transmen. My mother reacted with confusion and curiosity. She has tomboy friends and I explained gender vs. expression to her and gave a few examples of how the two differ that she understood and it put it into a better context for her whereas my mother in law was very defensive and aggressive. She considers herself to be a tomboy and I suppose felt like I was threatening her identity because I told her I was trans. She was struggling with understanding the difference and I had the same gender vs. expression conversation with her and used examples especially mentioning dysphoria to her and she came around slowly. The hardest part was dealing with comments along the lines of 'well isn't being a tomboy enough' or 'you're not transgendered because there's no such thing you're just a tomboy'
I think tomboys know they are girls, and are cool with being girls, but they just want to do things that are usually socially acceptable for boys. As opposed to, transboys are not cool with being girls and don't like being referred to as female at all.
Like, if you asked, "Are you a boy?"
The tomboy would say, "No, I'm a girl, I just like doing this boy stuff."
And the transboy would say, "Yes." And then probably take a good amount of glee into being gendered as male.
Quote from: Rawb on August 09, 2014, 04:35:06 PM
I think tomboys know they are girls, and are cool with being girls, but they just want to do things that are usually socially acceptable for boys. As opposed to, transboys are not cool with being girls and don't like being referred to as female at all.
Like, if you asked, "Are you a boy?"
The tomboy would say, "No, I'm a girl, I just like doing this boy stuff."
And the transboy would say, "Yes." And then probably take a good amount of glee into being gendered as male.
If we're speaking about children, that's not necessarily true. I never felt like I was in the correct body but I would have told you I was a girl because that's what I was told and that's what I knew my body matched up with.
I don't really think there's a way to explain that tomboy =/= trans. Or the other way around... Even if there were, what about all those trans people that conformed to feminine things as a kid? That happens plenty.
I agree that when puberty hits, the distinction becomes clear. I WANTED other boys' physical characteristics. From all the usual (voices, hair) to noticing how their calf shapes were different and desperately wishing I could look like that! I didn't really think of myself as a tomboy, that would imply I was a girl, I preferred if someone said I was one of the guys. And passing, even as a kid, felt really awesome. I would never correct others if they called me a boy.
Another way to approach it is from the point of sexuality, although this may vary greatly from person to person.
Personally, when I first came to terms with liking girls (before knowing anything about being trans*), it felt right and normal. In my mind somewhere I was straight and adhering to the social conventions I was raised up to believe in. However, whenever I feel a tiny bit of attraction to guys, I would feel like it was a little bit wrong, not that I was against homosexuality, but just because I was not used to it and it was out of my comfort zone. I felt extremely ok with liking girls, but it seemed wrong to identify myself as a lesbian, I always said I was gay, because that term is usually reserved for men. Now of course, I identify as a straight man, which finally feels right.
I thought I was a girl. I just had no other language to describe what was going on with me, so if you had asked me back then, I would have said "girl". But there was some period of time, when I said I was a boy and rejected my girl name. I don't know long that was or anything. Can't time travel back again.
Even liking my body was a relative sort of thing. I didn't but if you had asked I might have said it was okay just because I didn't think there was anything I could do about it, so I settled for it.
--Jay
I identified as "tomboy" as a kid because I had no other language to identify with. I knew I wasn't a girl and had been taught I wasn't a boy. When I first started school and there was only two choices (girls line or boy's line) I got in the boy's line until that got conditioned out of me. "Tomboy" was the only way I could get away from the girl label.
If you had asked me if I wanted to be a boy I would have given a resounding yes. I was doing the "boy" stuff but I wasn't really satisfied. I wanted to be a boy. I wanted there to be no question. It wasn't just about what I could do, but who I was.
I was basically just having this conversation today (without any animosity or defensiveness involved). What I explained is that from an early age I didn't like pictures of myself or looking in the mirror. The person looking back wasn't me. Until starting this transition, the only time I've liked my body is when I was doing sports. At all other times it felt like this thing I was stuck with.
If you all don't mind, i'd love to give my opinion on the whole "remove societies expectations and you wouldn't be transgender" nonsense.
I was a SPECTACULAR failure as a male. I had no male friends or interests. I never had sex with a woman. I always had long hair. I simply could not fit in with guys to save my life. And yet none of this did a damn thing for my dysphoria. I ignored all expectations and it didn't help at all.
I laugh whenever I read that "arguement" because my personal experience directly contradicts it.
I think this is an interesting topic but it's not a very clear cut one. Given the fact many tomboys exist beyond puberty with no desire to become male or identify as such, it's such a gray area of overlapping thoughts/ideas.
I've had to explain to people that "yes, I was a 'tomboy' during my youth but that doesn't mean I just need to get with the 'female' program". I say this in the sense that some people genuinely believe that trans-men simply can choose NOT to be trans or that, with the right circumstances, will go "back" to being slightly boyish ciswomen. Like we can not just let go of that childish behavior of being a boy. I guess it's akin to some people rolling their eyes when grown adults whip out toys (not sexual ones) or watching cartoons. Not saying it's the same but maybe that's a similar thought process. Just letting go of the "baby games" and you'll be normal like everyone else.
I know it's perhaps a poor comparison but it's the only way I can make my thoughts on this remotely make sense.
Quote from: Juliett on August 10, 2014, 12:34:07 AM
If you all don't mind, i'd love to give my opinion on the whole "remove societies expectations and you wouldn't be transgender" nonsense.
I was a SPECTACULAR failure as a male. I had no male friends or interests. I never had sex with a woman. I always had long hair. I simply could not fit in with guys to save my life. And yet none of this did a damn thing for my dysphoria. I ignored all expectations and it didn't help at all.
I laugh whenever I read that "arguement" because my personal experience directly contradicts it.
Heheh, I grew up in a household where I got to wear what I wanted, I went to school with guys who crossdressed and didn't get much crap about it, and I still have dysphoria. I don't give a damn about being masculine or feminine, the idea of being a homemaker sounds pretty awesome to me, and I love wearing women's clothing. Oh yeah, I'm totally transitioning so it'll be more acceptable for me to act masculine.
I dunno, when someone is dead-set on not understanding an explanation of what dysphoria is like, there's not much point in trying to explain things to them.
There is a huge difference between wanting to be a boy and being a boy. We are (were) boys, always.
As someone who tried to be very feminine and failed following puberty, I can attest that putting on makeup and dresses and having long, flowing, curly hair will not make one a girl, either.
Quote from: sneakersjay on August 10, 2014, 06:50:20 PM
There is a huge difference between wanting to be a boy and being a boy. We are (were) boys, always.
As someone who tried to be very feminine and failed following puberty, I can attest that putting on makeup and dresses and having long, flowing, curly hair will not make one a girl, either.
So true! I had no "girl instinct" at all.