I hate the term transsexual. It reminds me of a time when we faced heavier discrimination in the medical field. When everyone around us were gatekeepers to prevent us from receiving our medical care, when we had to live in very stereotypical and archaic gender roles just to have the honor to transition. At a time when transphobia was everywhere we looked, when we were being kicked out of the gay rights movement, when we were all assumed to be perverted ->-bleeped-<-s in every part of our lives, When they forced us to live in the closet because it was shameful to be transgender. To me it has the same negative connotations as gender identity disorder has and so much more. It is an outdated and archaic term that conjures up nothing but transphobia. I'm not transsexual, I'm transgender, transfeminine. I am not the archaic stereotype that has plagued us for so many decades!
I actually feel the opposite. I dislike the word transgender. I'm not changing gender. I'm female. I'm transitioning from I-to-F, medically. So, for me, transsexual fits just fine.
I personally don't like stereotypes and grouping myself into certain categories. I'm just a girl and that's it. Technically I am transgender but I identify as female and nothing else. Sadly, discrimination and ignorance is still prevalent from my experience. Hopefully one day the majority of the population can learn to be accepting and open-minded towards things so people won't have to suffer so much for just being themselves.
Quote from: Valleyrie on August 10, 2014, 12:23:05 PM
I personally don't like stereotypes and grouping myself into certain categories. I'm just a girl and that's it. Technically I am transgender but I identify as female and nothing else. Sadly, discrimination and ignorance is still prevalent from my experience. Hopefully one day the majority of the population can learn to be accepting and open-minded towards things so people won't have to suffer so much for just being themselves.
well, someday society will get there I hope. The amt. of progress in the last 100 years is pretty amazing, but how stupid is it that we're still dealing with this crap of racism, bullying, etc.
Personally I absolutely loathe the word transsexual. To me it's all about the feeling that it instills. It brings to mind a sense of negative deviance, or of an older time. Transgender just fits me so much more, or trans girl... idk, I feel like the word transsexual contributes to society's idea that we are doing this for a sexual reason.
Quote from: Kaylin Kumiho on August 10, 2014, 01:47:22 PM
Personally I absolutely loathe the word transsexual. To me it's all about the feeling that it instills. It brings to mind a sense of negative deviance, or of an older time. Transgender just fits me so much more, or trans girl... idk, I feel like the word transsexual contributes to society's idea that we are doing this for a sexual reason.
And that is precisely why i hate it. Like I just cannot stand these old cissexist terms
I feel the same way. I've always hated the word transsexual for some reason, it just sounds so abrasive and harsh. I've always preferred transgender, it just sounds more tender and non sexual to me. Transsexual just makes me think of porn and prostitution.
The problem is not the word itself, to me. More like the negative stereotypes tied to it. Most people associate transsexualism to sexual deviancy, promiscuity and sex work. Being transsexual does not imply this at all. However I do not think we are better off throwing prostitutes or mentally ill people under the bus and shouting that we are not like them. We are othering other groups the same way people other us. We need to remind ourselves that many trans girls do sex work to survive as a last resort as well as prostitues in general. And, instead of just trying to dissociate the word from all the harsh realities that surround it, we just should just explain how the things are unrelated but there are indeed trans prostitues because they have no easier way to survive, which doesn't mean all tgirls are prostitutes. Only when we recognize these issues will they be addressed.
You know, I've sort of come to the conclusion that the two are entirely separate concepts. Trans 101 is that sex and gender are different, albiet closely associated topics, right? So can't someone feel the need to change their sex without changing their gender and vice versa? It's how I identify-as transexual but also genderqueer. I think we have a habit of turning against one another because each experience is different and we tend to lump everything together.
Some people feel the need to change their body. Some feel the need to change their gender. The two are completely different in my opinion. Both are valid.
I've been around the scene for almost 30 years. I lived in one of the meccas for transsexual women. LA and Hollywood. I can tell you that there are considerably more offensive words than the word transsexual.
Let me list them:
->-bleeped-<-
->-bleeped-<-
shim
->-bleeped-<-got
freak
So on, and so forth. The word transsexual is the correct term if you will. Since we weren't born with the correct plumbing for who we know we are in our minds, it is what it is. I can deal with being called transgendered, transsexual. In fact, if I didn't want or didn't have the choice to have a sex change and I could only have one of two markers T (trans) or M (male) on my ID, I'll take the T gender marker any day.
I don't think we need to get hung up so much on being called a transsexual. It's not the worlds problem that we feel that we were born in the wrong gender. It is nice when they comprehend and sympathize with our fight. I know we have many allies. I'm not here on earth to make anybody else happy with my appearance. My friends treat me as a female, and for that I'm grateful.
I have no issue with the word transsexual, what Monica listed are the words that bother me the most. I hate those words so much because its basically invalidating my female self. Transsexual is just a medical term that I believe fits just right. But at the same time none of these words completely define who I am, I'm a woman first and foremost. Transition is what I had to undergo to save my life, a medical necessity.
To be honest I don't like any of the T words used to describe us. They all have negative stereotypes associated with them.
Why do we have to ban words because a few people have used them as insults? I've never understood it. What offends us isn't the word, it's the thought behind that word, and banning them isn't going to get us anywhere, it just lets us hide from the problem.
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on August 10, 2014, 02:43:44 PM
I have no issue with the word transsexual, what Monica listed are the words that bother me the most. I hate those words so much because its basically invalidating my female self. Transsexual is just a medical term that I believe fits just right. But at the same time none of these words completely define who I am, I'm a woman first and foremost. Transition is what I had to undergo to save my life, a medical necessity.
^This.
Quote from: Riley Skye on August 10, 2014, 12:10:22 PM
I hate the term transsexual. It reminds me of a time when we faced heavier discrimination in the medical field. When everyone around us were gatekeepers to prevent us from receiving our medical care, when we had to live in very stereotypical and archaic gender roles just to have the honor to transition. At a time when transphobia was everywhere we looked, when we were being kicked out of the gay rights movement, when we were all assumed to be perverted ->-bleeped-<-s in every part of our lives, When they forced us to live in the closet because it was shameful to be transgender. To me it has the same negative connotations as gender identity disorder has and so much more. It is an outdated and archaic term that conjures up nothing but transphobia. I'm not transsexual, I'm transgender, transfeminine. I am not the archaic stereotype that has plagued us for so many decades!
Yes, it sucks that the term has been associated with people thinking it for something sexual, like we're sex fiends or perverts or something, but oh well, that's the unfairness of life. It wouldn't matter what we were coined as being called we'd still be looked at the same way for those that are or choose to be ignorant of the truths about us.
People want to know or for some reason I have to tell or explain it to others I tell them I'm a male to female transsexual, then go into a quick sum up explanation of what that is. Most people know what the word transsexual is, but its up to us as transsexuals to educate those that don't understand what it is to be one, that it isn't something we do for sexual perversity, nor just to play dress up, or other oddball reason that most envision us to be.
Just my two cents here but for me, I'm Veronica... Plain and simple. And while yes I am in transition, I am just me. If someone chooses to label me with a name or definition so be it. I think the only name I was bothered about at first was the label "Drag Queen" but then I realized people using this term and others like that are merely stereotyping and it is their problem / hang up and not mine. Fact of the matter is I personally think we get far to sensitive about all this label stuff. I mean really does it really matter what someone else chooses to call you. Bottom line if it is something other than your name they are just showing their lack of understanding. That or they are trying to understand you by placing you in a category. I don't even get hung up on pronouns anymore, and worry much less about the whole pass / fail thing as well. As long as I am comfortable as myself who really gives a rats ass what other people think. After all you are the one that has to live with yourself, and not them.
It also leaves a bad taste in my mouth because it sounds like a sexual orientation like heterosexual and bisexual. I think transgender is more accurate because it is about gender and not sex. For me it has negative connotations and yes there are worse things but I personally just don't like it.
But for some of us, it IS about sex. We can't impose our own personal perspectives on everyone else. For some people, it's about sex and for others it's about gender. For me it's about both.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on August 10, 2014, 03:54:23 PM
But for some of us, it IS about sex. We can't impose our own personal perspectives on everyone else. For some people, it's about sex and for others it's about gender. For me it's about both.
And that is perfectly fine, for me it is a bad term. Also we can't go policing each others terms but we do need to have such discussions about what's comfortable for ourselves
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on August 10, 2014, 02:28:16 PM
"You know, I've sort of come to the conclusion that the two are entirely separate concepts. Trans 101 is that sex and gender are different, albiet closely associated topics, right? So can't someone feel the need to change their sex without changing their gender and vice versa? It's how I identify-as transexual but also genderqueer. I think we have a habit of turning against one another because each experience is different and we tend to lump everything together.
Some people feel the need to change their body. Some feel the need to change their gender. The two are completely different in my opinion. Both are valid."[/i]
BRAVO! It seems that at least somebody has a clue. ;D
Whether you like the word or not is a moot point. It's word with a clear medical definition, one you either fit or you don't.
I don't like being called "white". I mean, my skin is not even close to the same color as my walls, but I'm stuck with this label that isn't likely going away in my lifetime. I have made my peace with it.
Unfortunately, "transsexual" isn't going away either. Is it a bit archaic? Yes, in my opinion. Maybe it will eventually lose favor like "->-bleeped-<-" has, but for now it's here to stay and there's nothing I can do about it.
"sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" An old old saying, and in my experience not true, words can and do hurt. Being labeled as something you feel you are not does in fact hurt. But on the other hand, meanings of words do fade in time or get changed. Does it happen over night? no. But it does happen, a few years ago I wrote a paper for a sociology class about ->-bleeped-<- and how younger people (i.e. College age) view it. In my class at least 1/4 new of someone who identified as the opposite gender, and the majority felt it was that person's choice. Just think of where things stood 20 years ago, if that same question was asked I would guess that half wouldn't know what I was talking about, and the other half would be disgusted. If I had come out back then and said I wanted to transition I would have been ostracized and lost everyone in my life. Now I have a 50/50 chance of my family accepting my decision. Not the greatest odds but I'll take that chance.
What I'm trying to say in my rambling way is that in the next 20 years I believe most people will accept the fact that there are people who are born in the wrong gender. Am I over-optimistic? Maybe, but I refuse to accept any other option.
If this post makes no sense I blame the triple shot of espresso I just had before I left work. ;)
Great! Now besides passing we have to worry about terms, Jeesh! Where will this madness end? ::)
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 10, 2014, 08:36:43 PM
Great! Now besides passing we have to worry about terms, Jeesh! Where will this madness end? ::)
didn't someone say when hell freezes over
Quote from: Auroramarianna on August 10, 2014, 02:19:12 PM
The problem is not the word itself, to me. More like the negative stereotypes tied to it. Most people associate transsexualism to sexual deviancy, promiscuity and sex work. Being transsexual does not imply this at all. However I do not think we are better off throwing prostitutes or mentally ill people under the bus and shouting that we are not like them. We are othering other groups the same way people other us. We need to remind ourselves that many trans girls do sex work to survive as a last resort as well as prostitues in general. And, instead of just trying to dissociate the word from all the harsh realities that surround it, we just should just explain how the things are unrelated but there are indeed trans prostitues because they have no easier way to survive, which doesn't mean all tgirls are prostitutes. Only when we recognize these issues will they be addressed.
How would anyone be throwing prostitutes and the mentally ill under the bus? I am surrounded by the mentally ill in my own family, and I'll tell you and everyone else that the non-mentally ill are nothing like the mentally ill in so many ways that I'm not sure where to begin. And as far as "they [prostitute and sex workers] have no easier way to survive," no one ever said surviving was going to be easy.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on August 10, 2014, 02:55:55 PM
Why do we have to ban words because a few people have used them as insults? I've never understood it. What offends us isn't the word, it's the thought behind that word, and banning them isn't going to get us anywhere, it just lets us hide from the problem.
I think the problem is that a false impression of the TS or TG group, in general and for whatever reason, has been created.
Quote from: Susan522 on August 10, 2014, 04:10:50 PM
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on Today at 03:28:16 pm
" You know, I've sort of come to the conclusion that the two are entirely separate concepts. Trans 101 is that sex and gender are different, albiet closely associated topics, right? So can't someone feel the need to change their sex without changing their gender and vice versa? It's how I identify-as transexual but also genderqueer. I think we have a habit of turning against one another because each experience is different and we tend to lump everything together.
Some people feel the need to change their body. Some feel the need to change their gender. The two are completely different in my opinion. Both are valid.
"
BRAVO! It seems that at least somebody has a clue. ;D
Now I'm more confused than ever!
While I deeply value other people self-applying 'transsexual' for whichever reason matters to them, I prefer 'transgender' as an adjective for me if I'm forced to choose anything. I expect that's due to the personal definitions of sex and gender I use since I can't make myself see them as divorced subjects. I can certainly understand the usefulness of seeing sex as purely biological and gender as sociocultural aspects for others but, in my mind, it feels like an artificial separation of two things stuck in a muddied circular relationship.
When it comes to physical characteristics, I have a habit of seeing the construction of definitions as somewhat gendered in nature because I believe it's important to emphasise that the scientific process doesn't take place in a bubble separated from all human complications. Flowing from that, the crafting of sex classifications often seems to start from a point greatly impacted by ingrained assumptions about the gender binary and leads to those assumptions being imposed on nature. I'd suggest that might be highlighted by factors like the way definitions of sex have varied greatly throughout history and continue to vary depending on contextual need (e.g. expected gamete production, expected chromosomes, visible secondary sex features, hormone levels, etc), or cases wherein newborns are assigned to a sex based on which side of the binary their genitalia are subjectively deemed closer to matching.
Ultimately, this and much more means I'll see myself as changing my overall gender even when changing things like secondary or primary sex characteristics and believe it's my gender that tends to determine which definition of sex people apply to me. In every day contexts, if a person sees me as a woman then I think they'll apply a definition of sex that classifies me as female, thus my sex would be gendered in nature. Of course, if other people prefer to look at the causal relationship as reversed thereby inclining them towards self-applying 'transsexual' then I can totally understand that too. The same understanding applies to people that state there's a strict separation between sex and gender too.
Anyhoo, I'm very tired and anxious due to an important gate-keeping appointment soon so this might not make any sense at all and is probably a total ramble. Well, what I mean is that I expect things I write generally don't make sense but that's probably even more applicable here. *giggles*
Quote from: Lonicera on August 10, 2014, 10:11:44 PMWell, what I mean is that I expect things I write generally don't make sense but that's probably even more applicable here. *giggles*
I agree 100% Trying to change the definitions of male/female - man/woman, can get pretty convoluted and tiresome. That is why "boy" does not equal, nor is it the same as "girl". And that is also why, while there might be, and generally is, some meaningful relationship between physiological sex and gender roles/presentations, they are most decidedly
not the same.
Quote from: Susan522 on August 10, 2014, 10:30:08 PM
I agree 100% Trying to change the definitions of male/female - man/woman, can get pretty convoluted and tiresome. That is why "boy" does not equal, nor is it the same as "girl". And that is also why, while there might be, and generally is, some meaningful relationship between physiological sex and gender roles/presentations, they are most decidedly not the same.
I didn't say they were the
same thing, I said the
definitions we use for each are 'two things stuck in a muddied circular relationship.' I simply believe conceptions of gender and social systems we've created also shape and reflect our understanding of our physicality. For me, gender has general primacy in that relationship and our social systems hence I prefer transgender, that's all. I stand by that until you can offer something more than just being snide yet again.
As for categorisation as 'boy' or 'girl,' I think it's a great deal more complicated than the strict binary you propose and the point has nothing to do with the importance of relationships between things that I tried to stress, in my mind.
How one "identifies" is their own personal choice. Whether or not others share that personal identification is up to them is it not? Nevertheless, RE: the Original post...
Quote from: kelly_aus on August 10, 2014, 04:23:39 PM
Whether you like the word or not is a moot point. It's word with a clear medical definition, one you either fit or you don't.
Transgender is an umbrella term. It includes cross dressers, drag, and various other subgroups as well as transexual people. It's an umbrella term to gather more people under one label, show them the commonalities they have so they can organize politically together.
On the other hand, transexual is a clinical term, used to describe trans folk who have experienced (or could experience) gender dysphoria and who feel they would be better off transitioning to a different gender role within society. Technically, it is far more accurate and narrow than transgender. Technically it is us.
I realize that some words get bad associations so I think it makes sense to try to be sensitive, especially to those who have had bad experiences associated with particular words. There are very few places I would openly use "->-bleeped-<-", for example, with gay male drag situations being about the only one. Other words, like cisgender, have acquired negative connotations in general conversation but are still widely used in clinical settings.
I think we need to be more cognizant of when and where to use particular words.
I don't particularly like the term but I think it more accurately describes me than "transgender" because my gender is decidedly and fixedly female now that I've cleared up my questions of identity.
It's all really semantic, isn't it? Just a bunch of Latin roots kludged together in an attempt to label a human condition which falls more than one standard deviation from the mean on some arbitrary dimension or factor. Looking at those Latin roots, to me, transgender implies the condition I live with, that is that my gender and my body are incompatible. Transexual indicates to me, a transgender person who has undertaken all of the possible steps to correct the aforementioned incongruity. I find neither of the terms offensive, because, as I stated before, it's all really just semantic. Now... y'all wouldn't want to accuse me of being anti-semantic, would you?
How about chromosomal misaligned brain syndrome. I think its got a nice ring to it.
good name for a band too...
I told my boss last week I am transsexual; I felt a bit awkward but a lot better than when I told him I am trans*. Then I explained how it differs from trans*. This conversation was at the end of my annual evaluation when he asked how things were going personally. He is curious as to when I will present. I explained how my wife told my daughter and the storm that ensued. I explained I have my wife and daughter and my wife threatened to divorce me if I have procedures. I explained my dysphonia and need for procedures and my dilemma. I was getting a bit emotional by then. I concluded by explaining how HRT, therapy, group and on-line support are why I am still around. He asked what he could do to help and I said your support is all I need.
Point being, this was an opportunity to explain what a transsexual goes through and how it is not something that is done because of what the media portrays.
The word is a word, I really dislike what that word means to me and the power it has over me.
Quote from: Riley Skye on August 10, 2014, 03:51:06 PM
It also leaves a bad taste in my mouth because it sounds like a sexual orientation like heterosexual and bisexual. I think transgender is more accurate because it is about gender and not sex. For me it has negative connotations and yes there are worse things but I personally just don't like it.
Thats exactly how I see it. I prefer transgendered all day... Just woman or girl a bit more ;)
Personally, I don't really mind most of the T-words, but aside from the obviously offensive words, there is one word that offends me if anyone were to call me it. ->-bleeped-<-. I realize it's sorta outdated, but I absolutely hate it for some reason. It means the same thing more-or-less, but cross-dresser is better IMO (though I am planning on transitioning, not just cross-dressing)
Just my two cents! :)
I think, we think, to much about words.
Also we continue to hold to much hate over them and their meanings.
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned." - Buddhaghosa
It is a word nothing more, and has no power over you. Unless you allow it.
Yeah but proper language and education is exactly what the world needs to know when it comes to trans issues. A lot of the hate we get is because of misinformation.
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on August 11, 2014, 10:31:28 PM
Yeah but proper language and education is exactly what the world needs to know when it comes to trans issues. A lot of the hate we get is because of misinformation.
good point! So... do we strike a committee, draft a proposal and then submit that to the APA? Not trying to be snarky, here, but I have personal experience witnessing the use of language to spread misinformation and hate, its nothing new, and I am just wondering (virtually) aloud, what sort of media campaign can we start to promote acceptable terms of reference. The other hurdle is, how do we get consensus amongst ourselves? In principle, I fully agree with your observation.
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on August 10, 2014, 02:43:44 PM
I have no issue with the word transsexual, what Monica listed are the words that bother me the most. I hate those words so much because its basically invalidating my female self. Transsexual is just a medical term that I believe fits just right. But at the same time none of these words completely define who I am, I'm a woman first and foremost. Transition is what I had to undergo to save my life, a medical necessity.
This^^___^^ sooooo so much describes how I feel on the subject. Transsexual or transgender, or even IS(and there are derogatory words for those of us who are this too. The "H" word for one I've been called by bullies many times) in my case only describe my medical conditions being corrected through hrt and surgery to as Lady Oracle so eloquently put it, save my life as they are medically necessary to do so. I am a woman, just a girl trying to make her place in the world above all else. And nothing, no words, or no one will ever change that.
Ali :icon_flower:
Quote from: Allyda on August 12, 2014, 03:58:44 PM
This^^___^^ sooooo so much describes how I feel on the subject. Transsexual or transgender, or even IS(and there are derogatory words for those of us who are this too. The "H" word for one I've been called by bullies many times) in my case only describe my medical conditions being corrected through hrt and surgery to as Lady Oracle so eloquently put it, save my life as they are medically necessary to do so. I am a woman, just a girl trying to make her place in the world above all else. And nothing, no words, or no one will ever change that.
Ali :icon_flower:
Couldn't agree more. Words only have power if we give them power. I honestly don't care what term people call me, because at the end of the day I know who I am and what I am. And as Lady Oracle stated the words come with misinformation and I would like that to change, have even been called a ->-bleeped-<- on more than one occasion (due to the fact that I'm going to have to save up for GRS, and I haven't even started HRT yet, I'm still physically male). Do I let it get to me? No. Do I wish people had a better understanding? Goddess yes. We are who we are, don't let the words have power.
well... there you go.
Quote from: EllieM on August 12, 2014, 04:15:38 PM
well... there you go.
I didn't realize I summed it up so well, lol!
Quote from: GenTechJ on August 12, 2014, 04:09:16 PM
Couldn't agree more. Words only have power if we give them power. I honestly don't care what term people call me, because at the end of the day I know who I am and what I am. And as Lady Oracle stated the words come with misinformation and I would like that to change, have even been called a ->-bleeped-<- on more than one occasion (due to the fact that I'm going to have to save up for GRS, and I haven't even started HRT yet, I'm still physically male). Do I let it get to me? No. Do I wish people had a better understanding? Goddess yes. We are who we are, don't let the words have power.
I couldn't have thought of a better addition ^^___^^ to this if I had tried. Thanks GenTechJ! :icon_bunch:
Ali :icon_flower:
Quote from: GenTechJ on August 12, 2014, 04:09:16 PM
Couldn't agree more. Words only have power if we give them power. I honestly don't care what term people call me, because at the end of the day I know who I am and what I am. And as Lady Oracle stated the words come with misinformation and I would like that to change, have even been called a ->-bleeped-<- on more than one occasion (due to the fact that I'm going to have to save up for GRS, and I haven't even started HRT yet, I'm still physically male). Do I let it get to me? No. Do I wish people had a better understanding? Goddess yes. We are who we are, don't let the words have power.
I have to strongly disagree. Words have power, and it is very strong. I was made fun of for being stupid for at least ten years. I heard it non stop with most every friend I've had and I started to believe it. No one ever told me I was smart except for teachers that didn't matter. What we need to do is show people, especially kids and teens is that they can advocate and speak for themselves, to show that they need to try to educate others.
Quote from: Riley Skye on August 12, 2014, 05:57:21 PM
I have to strongly disagree. Words have power, and it is very strong. I was made fun of for being stupid for at least ten years. I heard it non stop with most every friend I've had and I started to believe it. No one ever told me I was smart except for teachers that didn't matter. What we need to do is show people, especially kids and teens is that they can advocate and speak for themselves, to show that they need to try to educate others.
I in no way doubt your authenticity and that you've been hurt in the past by words people with less than your best intentions have said -so have I. The word "hermaphrodite" still haunts me to this day. But it's a matter of perspective. I let that word bother me so thus, I am giving the word power by doing so. This becomes easier to understand as you get older. Yet even though I know this, because this particular word and a few others were used in a derogatory way to hurt me over and over by people who were supposed to love me it's ingrained in my mind as bad, awful, and disturbing because of how it was used toward me especially as a child. It still bothers me every time I hear it even when used by someone only trying to understand what I've gone through, as was the case the other day at a friends house. But it's my perspective of the word which makes it bother me. Therefore I do understand your perspective on transsexual vs. transgender along with the need for education to hopefully one day in the future prevent these words from being used in a way perceived as derogatory.
Ali :icon_flower:
Quote from: Allyda on August 12, 2014, 06:16:40 PM
I in no way doubt your authenticity and that you've been hurt in the past by words people with less than your best intentions have said -so have I. The word "hermaphrodite" still haunts me to this day. But it's a matter of perspective. I let that word bother me so thus, I am giving the word power by doing so. This becomes easier to understand as you get older. Yet even though I know this, because this particular word and a few others were used in a derogatory way to hurt me over and over by people who were supposed to love me it's ingrained in my mind as bad, awful, and disturbing because of how it was used toward me especially as a child. It still bothers me every time I hear it even when used by someone only trying to understand what I've gone through, as was the case the other day at a friends house. But it's my perspective of the word which makes it bother me. Therefore I do understand your perspective on transsexual vs. transgender along with the need for education to hopefully one day in the future prevent these words from being used in a way perceived as derogatory.
Ali :icon_flower:
I used to think that way and then I realized that wasn't the case. Bullies hurt as you are well aware of. What we can do is to take action and do our best to leave abusive relationship. I was in one with my friends for years and it took me until October 2012 to fully realize and another year to leave and I'm still shaken from it ten months later.
Quote from: Riley Skye on August 12, 2014, 06:21:21 PM
I used to think that way and then I realized that wasn't the case. Bullies hurt as you are well aware of. What we can do is to take action and do our best to leave abusive relationship. I was in one with my friends for years and it took me until October 2012 to fully realize and another year to leave and I'm still shaken from it ten months later.
But you're still giving them the power to hurt you hun.
Just my opinion here, but when I told one friend I was transgender her immeadiate response was "Oh hell no. Get that fixed now!"
Which, yeah it hurt a lot when I was coming out to have someone I thought I was so close to, to just erase me from her life because of that. We're patching things up, and I'm glad to have her back in my life. But I'm a bit wary. If you give people the power to hurt you, you will be hurt.
As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, 'trans-sexual', 'trans-vestite', 'trans-gender' are just words constructed to convey meaning. They define/describe different concepts or conditions.
I think that people have gotten too emotionally invested in what are essentially just descriptors with no inherent positive or negative connotations. I think that certain organizations in their efforts to define what is politically correct or socially 'acceptable', have imbued what are essentially neutral terms with negative connotations.
I mean seriously why is 'cross-dresser' inherently more acceptable or less "offensive" than '->-bleeped-<-'? They mean exactly the same thing.
Quote from: Susan522 on August 12, 2014, 06:49:54 PM
As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, 'trans-sexual', 'trans-vestite', 'trans-gender' are just words constructed to convey meaning. They define/describe different concepts or conditions.
True, but words are not neutral once they take on certain connotations and represent the ill-informed views of a society. I agree with the OP that transgender is a better descriptor than transsexual. It's the association with homo
sexual, bi
sexual, etc., which are about sexual orientation, that causes many in society to misunderstand us. The T in LGBT is very different from the others.
How about a different perspective? :)
For those of us who transition, let's just think of ourselves as women (or men for the transmen) who happen to have a trans history. And you can call that trans history transsexual or transgender and both would be correct.
"True, but words are not neutral once they take on certain connotations and represent the ill-informed views of a society."
And who "informed" the views of society? Were they not they very same activists who are decrying those "negative connotations"?
Changing Sex=transsexual
Changing Gender=transgender
Changing Clothes=->-bleeped-<-
I simply can not, do not see the problem.
Saying that because some people use these words to cause hurt should not be a reason to "hate" the word. Just doesn't make any sense to me.
The point that so many people here seem to be missing is that words are inherently neutral. There is nothing amoral, wrong, or quantifiably bad about any word in any language that I can think of, at least out side of Monty Python skits. What offends us is the thought behind the word, and banning the word only causes people to suppress the thought, and prevents any meaningful dialogue from actually occurring.
Furthermore, NOBODY here has any right to tell anyone else how they can or cannot identify. I am in the process of changing my sex. I am transexual. And nobody in this forum has the right to tell me that I can't identify that way because it's a term that they dislike. I also identify as queer, have friends who call themselves ->-bleeped-<-gots, ->-bleeped-<-s, dykes, gender->-bleeped-<-s, ->-bleeped-<-s, and a host of other terms some of you might find offensive. And it's their right-and anyone else's-to do so.
Guess what? If you take offense at someone else's identity, it's your problem, not theirs. That's identity politics 101 for you. So please, PLEASE stop telling me that I can't choose what to call myself because occasionally someone with a less enlightened worldview uses the word to propagate an idea that bothers you.
Thanks :)
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on August 13, 2014, 05:57:08 PM
The point that so many people here seem to be missing is that words are inherently neutral. There is nothing amoral, wrong, or quantifiably bad about any word in any language that I can think of, at least out side of Monty Python skits. What offends us is the thought behind the word, and banning the word only causes people to suppress the thought, and prevents any meaningful dialogue from actually occurring.
Furthermore, NOBODY here has any right to tell anyone else how they can or cannot identify. I am in the process of changing my sex. I am transexual. And nobody in this forum has the right to tell me that I can't identify that way because it's a term that they dislike. I also identify as queer, have friends who call themselves ->-bleeped-<-gots, ->-bleeped-<-s, dykes, gender->-bleeped-<-s, ->-bleeped-<-s, and a host of other terms some of you might find offensive. And it's their right-and anyone else's-to do so.
Guess what? If you take offense at someone else's identity, it's your problem, not theirs. That's identity politics 101 for you. So please, PLEASE stop telling me that I can't choose what to call myself because occasionally someone with a less enlightened worldview uses the word to propagate an idea that bothers you.
Thanks :)
I don't think anyone here wishes you any ill will, or to tell you how you can identify yourself. As with all threads this is only a discussion where those of us whom have an opinion on the topic, and wish to can voice their opinions so we as a group can discuss them in a polite way. I haven't seen where anyone is targeting you per se or how you identify yourself. IMHO that is.
Ali :icon_flower:
Transgender or transsexual doesn't bother me nearly as much as some of the stuff I was called as a Sheriff's Deputy. Those were definitely things said with true meaning. You know what though, I did not let them get to me at all. Just simple minds with limited vocabularies, nothing else. It is only a problem if you let it be. :)
While I appreciate the positive intent behind the thoughts and the attempt to empower people, I'd just like to express my personal dislike for sentiments that suggest people are giving others the power to hurt them, that they're
letting words hurt them, that they can
decide to not react to them, etc. I'm happy if anyone has developed in a way that allows them to do that but not everyone can, not everyone wants to, and nobody should have to. Personally, I often regard such views as verging on effectively victim-blaming because they allow the onus for pain suffered and change to be focused on the victim rather than on the original aggressor.
Language is an incredibly complex sign system that we often intuitively understand. Accordingly, I believe it's commonly the case that we can have limited conscious control over its effects on us since we've automatically absorbed and reacted to what is conveyed almost immediately after hearing/seeing it. This means I'll always personally defer to trying to understand the pain people endure from it, help them with that pain, and use that pain to try to encourage societal change that leads to those harmful things no longer being conveyed by people. I don't want them to feel they have to suppress or ignore the harm.
QuoteGuess what? If you take offense at someone else's identity, it's your problem, not theirs. That's identity politics 101 for you.
Personally, I don't see where anyone in this topic has expressed that people cannot identify as they desire. I only see people expressing personal distaste for it being applied to them or think it's ill-suited to them. With regard to your point, I agree but I also believe there is a duty on the people that do try to reclaim slurs or identify in a way that would be frequently objectionable to stress that it should not be applied to others without their consent. Naturally, I think it can be insisted that it's not their duty because the person using the word is doing the generalising so is the one creating the harm but that's simply not pragmatic and is callous disavowing of responsibility for potential outcomes started by their personal choice to me. I think anyone that identifies as a '->-bleeped-<-' or 'trap,' as some people I know do, and doesn't make it clear that it shouldn't be generalised is being naive or selfishly blinkered since some people will often then apply it to other trans people while citing them as an example of why they thought it was acceptable.
The WORDS, "->-bleeped-<-", "transsexual", "transgender", "trap"(?)...are not inherently hurtful or pejorative. It is how they are used or interpreted that connotes the negativity.
How they are used, is the intent/responsibility of the user of those words. How they are interpreted and/or responded to...is the responsibility of the object or recipient of said words.
If for example, someone is out shopping or whatever....and they are clocked. That in itself can be hurtful. If the checker or some random passerby points and giggles, or surreptitiously stares or whispers to a companion, that too can be hurtful. Does it really matter if the term used is trans, ->-bleeped-<- or transgender?
It really is not about the words, is it?
Quote from: Riley Skye on August 12, 2014, 06:21:21 PM
I used to think that way and then I realized that wasn't the case. Bullies hurt as you are well aware of. What we can do is to take action and do our best to leave abusive relationship. I was in one with my friends for years and it took me until October 2012 to fully realize and another year to leave and I'm still shaken from it ten months later.
I use to get teased all the time. Called named ect just because I was short, skinny or had glasses.
Know what hurt more? getting my head slammed into a locker. I understand mental bulling, but words are just words and they have long sense hurt me. Do I get upset when I hear a friend or someone use the term ->-bleeped-<- ect? Yes! do I dwell on it let it take hold? No, that is energy wasted.
we are also talking about the words transgender and transsexual words made up to do exactly what we want, to educate people. They are to help people understand our challenge. They are not words that were design to cause hate or harm.
Quote from: Aina on August 14, 2014, 02:38:33 PM
we are also talking about the words transgender and transsexual words made up to do exactly what we want, to educate people. They are to help people understand our challenge. They are not words that were design to cause hate or harm.
This is a fantastic point! We're not debating the legitimacy of using pejorative terms, even if only among ourselves. So although I feel more comfortable with the term transgender, it may only be because it sounds more benign. My feelings could just be superficial. But when framed this way, I really don't have a problem with either word.