I was just wondering about some opinions on this.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
Is it a load of baloney?
It's sad and true.
GCS is not the fix all.
Will not make all the troubles with work,relationships or family just fall to the way side.
That's why surgery is the last process one should take after everything is settled.
A vaginal is not that magical thing. It's just genital.
I don't think its very surprising given all the possible contributing factors such as employment , housing, family acceptance, isolation etc. It's a rough road to tread. The only thing you can do is make sure its right for you. I mean your rearranging your genitals, it's not a root canal.
physicians also have a higher suicide rate compared to the general population, especially psychologists psychitrists
Electricians hold the highest amount construction workers.
2 strikes against me
There is a flaw in seeing this study as absolute for all gender-reassigned people, though.
If you look further down the actual study, where it talks about the increased trans mortality rates, a dichotomy existed. Those who were sex-reassigned between 1973 and 1988 had very significantly higher rates of mortality. But those sex-reassigned between 1989 and 2003, although there was still a higher incidence rate than the controls, it was not measured to be statistically significant.
Take this how you want... maybe it's because the culture changed such that trans people were more accepted, and thus trans people endured less minority stress than before, or perhaps because of improvements in SRS techniques, or whatever, this study actually simultaneously showed that SRS has been getting more and more effective over the years at the same time as it was showing that it wasn't the be-all end-all answer for trans people being cured of all of their problems.
Carrie. I missed where it was noted that the mortality rate was higher from 1973-1989 as opposed to 1989-2003. I found just the opposite.
"We compared our cohort with randomly selected population controls matched for age and gender. The most striking result was the high mortality rate in both male-to-females and female-to males, compared to the general population. This contrasts with previous reports (with one exception[8]) that did not find an increased mortality rate after sex reassignment, or only noted an increased risk in certain subgroups."
I do see where they seem to contradict that based on the Tables.
My complaint is that they failed to control for the patients' AGE at te time of surgery.
Hmmm.... It is a study done in Sweden. They do have a difference there in treatment and from society.
The study repeatedly related to how flawed some of the data was, and how it was studied.
Much of it was data mined from other studies, which I didn't look at individually, but they are available to read.
There is a long list of the related studies that they drew the conclusion from at the end of the article.
They admit in various places the lack of information which does affect the conclusion.
It is an interesting study of Swedish Transsexuals, but readily admits to it's lack of coherent information.
But it does show a trend and it also recommends further studies with better participants and controls.
The real conclusion is that there needs to be a better study done.
There isn't a finite conclusion, although they did actually make one based on the limiting information that was mined.
At best it is a indication and not much more. Much of the conclusion is extrapolated from various sources of data.
My impression is that they have found by a trend that more has to be done for transsexuals as far as further help post surgery.
Just kinda shows what is suspected and is pretty much known by the trans community in Sweden.
To pull out of it bits of information and making a conclusion based on that is an insult to the efforts they made to extract the information as a total.
There is a lot of information, and it can be viewed from various angles.
To draw a conclusion from one angle alone isn't worthy given the various ways it can and is interpreted, in drawing it's conclusion, as flawed as is admitted though out the study as published.
Does anyone have a similar study done in say the US?
One with better participants under better controls?
Worldwide and then also broken down by country or region would be helpful.
Ativan
Ativan —
A British study, though I do not have the exact link, showed that suicude rates among post-ops are 18%. And that's not even counting the ones who live with regret.
These numbers make me pretty sick to my stomach. It makes me question the possibility of my own happiness after SRS...
Quote from: noah732 on August 12, 2014, 03:37:42 PM
Ativan —
A British study, though I do not have the exact link, showed that suicude rates among post-ops are 18%. And that's not even counting the ones who live with regret.
These numbers make me pretty sick to my stomach. It makes me question the possibility of my own happiness after SRS...
I've read articles about this. Much of the problem with the British study was that the patients interviewed felt that they were rushed into surgery and were given unrealistic expectations by their health care providers of the benefits the surgery would bring about.
At any rate, we're a high risk group for depression and other conditions because so many of us lived in secrecy, shame, and repression (by ourselves or by others) that we can't expect a surgery to fix all our problems, realistically.
I think for my part, I'm more concerned about the pain and possible medical complications that either kill me or make my genitals entirely useless then how I'd feel if I had a fully successful operation.
Quote from: stephaniec on August 11, 2014, 09:53:00 PM
physicians also have a higher suicide rate compared to the general population, especially psychologists psychitrists
I'm a psychology student...
One major flaw I see is that it didn't compare to trans people who had not had GRS but identified as wanting it. That would be a much clearer indication of whether GRS is a significant improvement in quality of life or not. I've also seen another, smaller UK study that showed that post-GRS trans women are basically reporting the same happiness and quality of life as cis women, but unfortunately I can't link to it as it's in a paid database.
It's not totally surprising that trans people might have a higher rate of depression and suicide than the general cis population (gay people do too, and societal oppression and discrimination play a large part in it), but that's not necessarily the same thing at all as saying that GRS does not help.
"Much of the problem with the British study was that the patients interviewed felt that they were rushed into surgery and were given unrealistic expectations by their health care providers of the benefits the surgery would bring about.
"
If this is true, then this is outrageous!
Quote from: Jenna Marie on August 12, 2014, 07:00:52 PM
One major flaw I see is that it didn't compare to trans people who had not had GRS but identified as wanting it. That would be a much clearer indication of whether GRS is a significant improvement in quality of life or not. I've also seen another, smaller UK study that showed that post-GRS trans women are basically reporting the same happiness and quality of life as cis women, but unfortunately I can't link to it as it's in a paid database.
It's not totally surprising that trans people might have a higher rate of depression and suicide than the general cis population (gay people do too, and societal oppression and discrimination play a large part in it), but that's not necessarily the same thing at all as saying that GRS does not help.
So true at some point life for all of us should get better.
There is always hope.
Noah732, do you have access to more of these studies on hand?
I don't have the time to look for them myself, but it seems like such an obvious study to be doing.
It would seem that the obvious question hasn't been studied very much.
And a comparison to those who haven't had GRS but want it would be a telling sort of thing.
I'm sorry, but I don't keep up on these kinds of studies to much, kinda out of my area, but it would seem that more in-depth ones should be done.
The suicide rates are a major concern for all trans people, regardless.
Something we can all agree on...
Ativan
Ativan — They're practically everywhere. Just punch in 'sex change regret' or 'sex change suicide rates' and a flood of tragic stories will flood in.
http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2012/03/sex-change-51-attempt-suicide-have-deep-regret-or-will-not-adjust.html
Thanks Noah, I think if everyone took a close look and determined which of these studies are indeed relative and have academic support, a good deal of knowledge could be gained. I prefer studies that have been published in journals more closely relevant to the subject, but that isn't a guarantee they are accurate. That is something to to look for in any studies, with so many being published, peer approval is key, but also the source of the information.
All to often, the results can be skewed, and small samples yield less accurate conclusions.
Sorting through these kinds of things can be difficult.
If reported in say blogs, it is wise to look to see if they aren't picking and choosing data.
Something that can be difficult to do.
It'd be nice to see a comprehensive list of the better studies that have been done.
Skewing data is inadvertently done, as well as intentionally.
Spectacular results with those kinds of conclusions are sometimes used to get more grant money.
Perhaps someone with a good background in these could look through them to sort them out.
My take on most studies, regardless of the content, should be peer approved as a safeguard, but not all need to be.
The Internet is full of information, to much sometimes and it does take a trained eye to spot the ones that are truly meaningful.
Like with everything, no accumulation of data defines a single truth, many of them can be contradicting, yet yield other valuable data, just the same.
Than you for you suggestion, it shows the staggering amount of information and lends to the idea that picking and choosing can be harmful in finding the truth sometimes. It is apparent though that they do show a definite direction of high suicide rates and that aftercare is as important as therapy is from the beginning. Trans is a hard thing to move through society with and we should all be careful as to how we approach it.
Ativan
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 12, 2014, 07:54:54 PM
Noah732, do you have access to more of these studies on hand?
I don't have the time to look for them myself, but it seems like such an obvious study to be doing.
It would seem that the obvious question hasn't been studied very much.
And a comparison to those who haven't had GRS but want it would be a telling sort of thing.
I'm sorry, but I don't keep up on these kinds of studies to much, kinda out of my area, but it would seem that more in-depth ones should be done.
The suicide rates are a major concern for all trans people, regardless.
Something we can all agree on...
Ativan
What I would like to know is the why of each suicide.
Is it gender related (i.e. suicide because the patient is unable to adapt to life as a different sex) or is it because of outside influence? Job discrimination, rejection by friends and relatives, church teachings or other reasons are possible. Not the trans person's gender but the way she is seen by the larger community.
If suicide is due to the gender change then the standards of care need to be examined more closely. If its due to external causes then some serious education of the general population is needed.
Homophobes and transphobes would like the first to be true as it bolsters their wishes that we all go away.
"If suicide is due to the gender change then the standards of care need to be examined more closely. If its due to external causes then some serious education of the general population is needed. "
One might want to look into the Daniels/Penner tragedy as possibly a good case in point. http://www.laweekly.com/2010-08-19/news/mike-penner-christine-daniels-a-tragic-love-story/
In the story link provided I saw no mention of therapy either general or with a gender specialist. I would not question the SOCs, but informed consent. Everyone wants hormones, but many do not want to make sure they are in a good place mentally first. :)
Jessica. Perhaps you are not familiar with this case. When Mike/Christine originally 'came out' and transitioned, the TG community rallied around him/her and promoted his/her case as a shining example of the WPATH SOC's.
My take on this whole debacle was that this individual was essentially 'pushed', (enabled) by an adoring community that saw his public transition as a tremendous success story extolling the benefits of public transition. Sadly it blew up in their faces and Mike/Christine was the unfortunate victim.
From Wikipedia:
"...Penner also began writing about transsexual identity and the process of gender transition from an autobiographical perspective. The first such piece he wrote for the Times was an essay entitled "Old Mike, New Christine" that appeared in the paper in April 2007. In it, he wrote about his lifelong struggle to come to terms with his transsexuality:
I am a transsexual sportswriter. It has taken more than 40 years, a million tears and hundreds of hours of soul-wrenching therapy for me to work up the courage to type those words. ... When you reach the point when one gender causes heartache and unbearable discomfort, and the other brings more joy and fulfillment than you ever imagined possible, it shouldn't take two tons of bricks to fall in order to know what to do.[4]..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Penner
^That was a case of a broken heart.
This happens a LOT in the trans community... people lose spouses and children due to transition, and basically they don't realize what they had until it was gone. And they fall apart when they lose their intimate social network.
If you'd like to see another telling statistic, how about this one?
In a 2012 study of 433 trans youth, (http://transpulseproject.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Impacts-of-Strong-Parental-Support-for-Trans-Youth-vFINAL.pdf (http://transpulseproject.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Impacts-of-Strong-Parental-Support-for-Trans-Youth-vFINAL.pdf)) 75% of trans individuals with unsupportive or somewhat supportive familes exhibited symptoms of depression, compared to only 23% of those with highly supportive families. And 57% of those without family support attempted suicide, compared to only 4% of those with support.
The issue in so many of these regret cases, and cases where people kill themselves, isn't being trans itself, it's the social rejection and stigmatization that goes along with it.
(Side note: is there any particular reason why you seem to be transfixing on these negative outcomes so much? :P)
Also, you asked me to provide where in the OP's linked study it talked about the difference between the 1973-1988 crowd and the 1989-2003 crowd. Here it is: (Direct quotes from the study:)
"Table 2 separately lists the outcomes depending on when sex reassignment was performed: during the period 1973-1988 or 1989–2003. Even though the overall mortality was increased across both time periods, it did not reach statistical significance for the period 1989–2003."
"In line with the increased mortality from suicide, sex-reassigned individuals were also at a higher risk for suicide attempts, though this was not statistically significant for the time period 1989–2003."
"Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989."
"In accordance, the overall mortality rate was only significantly increased for the group operated before 1989. However, the latter might also be explained by improved health care for transsexual persons during 1990s, along with altered societal attitudes towards persons with different gender expressions.[35]"
Hi Carrie. Your 'broken heart' theory sounds like a good one, although it might be just a bit of an oversimplification of a very complex combination of factors. "Broken Hearts" is the stuff of legend and pop-culture. I am sure most everyone here has suffered from a 'broken heart' ay least once in their life and most likely more than once.
Nevertheless your point about family support is a good one. No one can really say what caused Mike to de-transition and then end his own life, but I am guessing that it went way beyond "just" a broken heart. I have my own thoughts on that, but I feel constrained about sharing them seeing that I have been warned about exploring 'forbidden' topics which might be 'triggering' or 'offensive' to the delicate sensibilities of some.
I am still on the "watched" list but I will risk being so bold as to suggest that I think it IMHO does a huge disservice to the trans* community to be so unconditionally "supportive" at the risk of enabling potentially harmful behavior as might well have been the case in the sad and tragic passing of Mike Penner/Christine Daniels.
I do not see my bringing up this case on a thread about " High Suicide Rates & Other Things Among Post-op Transsexuals" as necessarily "transfixing on these negative outcomes". Rather I see taking a candid unbiased look at them as a possible learning experience on what might have gone wrong.
Quote from: Susan522 on August 18, 2014, 10:46:54 PM
I am still on the "watched" list but I will risk being so bold as to suggest that I think it IMHO does a huge disservice to the trans* community to be so unconditionally "supportive" at the risk of enabling potentially harmful behavior as might well have been the case in the sad and tragic passing of Mike Penner/Christine Daniels.
We give people support, guidance and information. Many more than not have taken our support and made successful transitions. Are you seriously advocating not supporting scared people in their time of need some without any support at home and acceptance without strings attached? What people do with the information gathered at places like this is their business. I would be no where close to where I am without this fine community who took me in unconditionally, supported me and helped me make good decisions based on their lives experiences. Blaming support systems for people's decisions (right or wrong) is not a good precedent to set. People have to ability to say no and should even if pressured if it is not right for them. I do not know anyone here who is twisting arms to get people to transition. :)
"Are you seriously advocating not supporting scared people in their time of need some without any support at home and acceptance without strings attached"
Absolutely NOT! I find it somewhat disconcerting that you would make such a distasteful and ignorant suggestion, just to make some points. It should be more than obvious that the point I am trying to make is that unconditional 'support"of an individual's action is not without risk.
I am just suggesting that caution is the greater part of valor and that this individual, despite (apparently) adhering to the SOC's, misjudged their own condition and seemed to lack sufficient situational awareness to understand the consequences of their actions.
Honestly. I WATCHED THIS as it evolved in real time and it was viscerally devastating. I could see the train coming down the tracks and everybody just dancing to the music. I cannot believe that I was the only one that saw this and if one looks closely into events and the post mortem observations of those closely involved it becomes apparent that this tragedy in the making was clear for all to see yet, EVERYONE stood silently by.
Why was that?
Quote from: Susan522 on August 18, 2014, 10:46:54 PM
I think it IMHO does a huge disservice to the trans* community to be so unconditionally "supportive" at the risk of enabling potentially harmful behavior as might well have been the case in the sad and tragic passing of Mike Penner/Christine Daniels.
After this I was merely asking if it was your opinion that supporting individuals was not proper, nothing else. :)
Of course I agree that "support" is important. It is just my position that this "support" should not entail some Pollyannaish enabling which ignores the brutal realities of transition. Nor am I suggesting that (for the most part), that is happening on this forum.
The following link is triggering but might provide some insight. http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/27/local/la-me-sportswriter27-2010mar27/3
Quote from: Susan522 on August 19, 2014, 12:38:33 AM
Of course I agree that "support" is important. It is just my position that this "support" should not entail some Pollyannaish enabling which ignores the brutal realities of transition.
That's fine, but please make the point without calling other forum members ignorant.
Just going to cool this thread down a bit folks... :)
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