So , if you wear skinny jeans ,a blouse, sandals and skin tight jacket with or without minimal make up all the time the same as any other woman , does that meet the requirement for full time or do you need a dress once in a while
Going full-time refers to a person living one's everyday life as one's chosen gender identity
RLT is a whole different animal.
Drop all your old guy stuff of at Goodwill Do everything as your chosen gender and dressed as such all the time except maybe when working then dressed appropriate for safety at the job. You are now a woman act present and live like one all the time.
I go to the VA for everything and I have been going dressed appropriately as my gender since day one of coming out to them.Said to myself if I can do that in front of all those brave men who never even batted an eye at me I can be myself anywhere, I then hit warp drive and never looked back. :)
I gradually transitioned from presenting male to female. Growing up, I always had to try to be a boy/man, it was an act. Once I figured things out, and began HRT I began presenting female in safe places. Then I began presenting female in public along with friends. Over time HRT effects were happening and I became more comfortable letting go of my old act. I continued to come out to more and more people, and presenting in more and more places and situations.
I told my entire family, all of my friends, and my place of work. I've tossed out my old clothes not because they're "male," but because they don't fit in the but anymore! I've still got some of my old T-shirts, but my style is much different, though not very different. (I work at an urban farm so simple casual clothing is what I wear unless I'm on a date or fancy occasion)
There was a time when I decided I would never again pretend to be a guy. At the time i was already out to my family, and friends. My girlfriend's father didn't know and she was trying to make me pretend to be male whenever he was around. I understood her anxiety, after all, I had told my parents already, but I put my foot down. That was full-time for me. I also came out at work at that time, something I had been putting off since I was in a somewhat temporary job.
I think being full time means 100%. Never ever pretending to be a guy again. I know many cis women who never wear dresses. I do wear dresses for fancy occasions or when I'm not at work... like wearing a summer dress on the weekend/evening, but it's not what you wear, it's how you wear it... I can rock flannel with jeans and still present female.
Some women never wear dresses. So no, that's not what's required. It's who you present as 24/7.
Yeah, it just means you never present as male again. There are plenty of cis tomboys and butch women and so on; it might be *harder* to present as a masculine or otherwise not-hyper-feminine woman (in that it might make you more likely to get misgendered), but so long as you're living as a woman full-time it counts.
(As a feminist I get very annoyed at the idea that we need to wear dresses to be women. ;) )
For me it meant:
1. Never presenting male.
2. Continuing to improve my wardrobe, hair, face, etc.
3. Never using my birth name unless legally required to do so.
4. Taking the appropriate steps to change my name and gender marker.
As for makeup, I never bother. I have severe problems with hand-eye coordination which would actually make me less passable if I tried it; I pass just fine with no makeup at all though I might eventually try some mascara and eye shadow since those don't require drawing straight lines (i.e. eyeliner, lipstick) or applying precise amounts in an even coat (i.e. foundation); those are tasks I have had lifelong difficulties with (my handwriting looks like an eight-year-old).
The dress thing is interesting I think it is a stage we go through during our coming out period.I have a bunch of beautiful ones and it seems having them and wearing them around the house is very pleasing to the senses, they exude femininity which is what our brain desires early on.Going out in one is a whole different matter--- ever seen Shrek in a dress that's me,scary! I do wear denim skirts for my everyday around the house and outside in the neighborhood bumming around.
When out most women just wear shorts or some type of pants/jeans and a blouse/top and very little makeup,works for me ,love easy.,just try to blend in . After over a year FT I can be ready to go out now just as fast as I could as----one of them other critters many of us use to be. :)
Quote from: stephaniec on August 15, 2014, 09:23:32 PM
So , if you wear skinny jeans ,a blouse, sandals and skin tight jacket with or without minimal make up all the time the same as any other woman , does that meet the requirement for full time or do you need a dress once in a while
Well, in UK Gender Clinics full time (or RLE) means committing yourself to your female identity and publicly living as that identity. It has nothing to do with clothes. The shrinks mainly look for:
- Legal change of name
- Telling doctors, banks, government, tax authorities, employer, etc about your new name and gender
- Ideally, letters or emails from friends and family. Supportive or hostile, either will do
They like an evidence trail in terms of continuous documentation such as bank statements, pay slips and so forth. The more paperwork the better. The reasoning goes that if you change your life's paperwork then you cannot really hide your transition.
What you wear and how you look are your choices.
Quote from: stephaniec on August 15, 2014, 09:23:32 PM
So , if you wear skinny jeans ,a blouse, sandals and skin tight jacket with or without minimal make up all the time the same as any other woman , does that meet the requirement for full time or do you need a dress once in a while
Depends on what purpose.
1. Are you full time to satisfy yourself?
If so, full-time is when you consider yourself a woman, and expect everyone in your life to use female pronouns, see and treat you as a woman, etc. You don't allow anyone to see you as a man. Doesn't have much to do with you dress. Women in our culture are allowed to dress however we want.
2. Are you fulltime to satisfy the gatekeepers?
In this case, each gatekeeper, whether a therapist or the government, has it's own definition and you need to research what they want.
I consider these two cases fundamentally different, though for most of us they happen at the same time.
I went full time as soon as I came out, as I didn't want to spend even one more day in the closet, and was in a welcoming enough environment (university) that I felt safe doing so. But until I started hormones, I didn't feel particularly confident wearing anything stereotypically feminine like skirts and dresses, and generally I just stuck to growing out my hair and wearing cute t-shirts, the occasional bit of jewellery and women's jeans. So outside of the fact that I had changed my name on all of my documentation and told everyone around me, very little changed except my looking slightly more androgynous. When I eventually saw someone at the gender clinic, they had no problem accepting this as valid full time experience. I think as others have identified, changing your legal documentation and presenting as female to those around you is much more important than how you dress or whether or not you wear makeup. At least here in the UK, anyway.
Enjoy life as your gender. I wear dresses on occasion, such as here at the Minneapolis zoo
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.elkeinland.com%2Fimg%2Fdresssmall.jpg&hash=057ab87e5abc3eb30f18af12fc0174318a99dc95)
I'm losing this picture server soon I'll figure out a new method of posting soon.
well, I love to were dresses , but lately its just been skinny jeans and a blouse, the thing is it's hard for me to wear heels or flats because my knees are totally arthritic and my old steel toe work boots give me better support and makes it easier to walk, I was just wondering if that disqualifies me from full time. my therapist says it's fine though. I know it's a stupid concern
Quote from: stephaniec on August 16, 2014, 08:58:08 AM
well, I love to were dresses , but lately its just been skinny jeans and a blouse, the thing is it's hard for me to wear heels or flats because my knees are totally arthritic and my old steel toe work boots give me better support and makes it easier to walk, I was just wondering if that disqualifies me from full time. my therapist says it's fine though. I know it's a stupid concern
It isn't a stupid concern. :) The early days of transition are a really uncertain time, and I think it's completely understandable to worry. Some of the concerns I had during my first year were, in hindsight, completely unfounded, but it didn't make them any less worrisome at the time. If you're worried about something, the best thing to do is ask, even if you think it'll sound stupid! ^^
And I had a bit of a complex over my feet during my first year, and was so convinced that they were huge and that no women's shoes could possibly fit me (I was wrong, of course) that I just continued to wear my male trainers. That didn't disqualify me, so I doubt your boots will do you any harm if that's what you're more comfortable in. :)
Quote from: stephaniec on August 16, 2014, 08:58:08 AM
well, I love to were dresses , but lately its just been skinny jeans and a blouse, the thing is it's hard for me to wear heels or flats because my knees are totally arthritic and my old steel toe work boots give me better support and makes it easier to walk, I was just wondering if that disqualifies me from full time. my therapist says it's fine though. I know it's a stupid concern
Ahh, the gatekeepers. In my line of temporary work, driving a truck, Ughhh, Yeah. I'm lazy. I would rather spent eight hours of playing and practicing the guitar than doing actual work even though the Ax is a lot of work that a lot of people have no idea. It is more frustrating, thinking fast and trying to reach a level of perfection that most jobs can't provide. Not to mention racking the brain creating and composing riffs and solos that may or may not eventually get heard. But my temporary part time crap if a driver gets sick or don't show up. Women even have to wear steel toe boots in this field. Just blame it on a job. Now I wear female snakeskins boots with the higher heels (western diamondback, and really expensive) skinny jeans with the boot tops on the outside and the shorty short sleeve shirts during certain "jobs" and even pink.
But it all comes down to one thing Stephanie, It is more of a mental shift than anything else. Yeah, you can dress girly girl and sometimes I do away from home but just like a man, the clothes don't make a woman it is how you think, experience emotions and relate to others that make that concrete the female or male inside you.
BTW Missy, I love that dress. Pink with white polka dots. It just screams femme. Not to mention the pink handbag and I love pink.
Stephanie : As far as gatekeeping goes, your therapist is the one who decides whether something counts - so if she says it's fine, by definition it's fine. :)
I still wear some of my old men's clothes for yardwork or other dirty jobs. I don't think it makes me "not full-time" any more than my wife wearing men's pants means she's a man. Honestly, I'd think a trans woman who wore entirely men's clothes* but presented herself as a butch woman was still full-time; it'd be a much harder row to hoe, but valid. Clothes don't make us, unless we choose to let them.
(*though I'd think she might eventually want a bra. heh.)
I have an assigned uniform for my job, steel toes are standard. It's groovy, fits my diversa-lezzie image anyhow.
I think the gist that may be lost from my first post is if RLE or full-time isn't working for a person then assessment is order.
I intend to go full time in essence in a month, however i decided to not tell work as i am only there two days a week, and my manager is rather homophobic. So technically this is not full time, but i am happy to change the definition to suit me. Besides my uniform is rather big and unisex, so presenting female would be a challenge. Full time in spirit. ;)
Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on August 16, 2014, 10:27:14 AM
I have an assigned uniform for my job, steel toes are standard. It's groovy, fits my diversa-lezzie image anyhow.
I think the gist that may be lost from my first post is if RLE or full-time isn't working for a person then assessment is order.
I just noticed your hanging out with the kat
I was going to say that you're full-time when you're no longer doing things that a woman can't do. But then I asked myself, what is it a woman can't do? I haven't exactly come up with a long list yet--except for tolerating the company of young males for very long, but even that one might only apply to women my age. So maybe this isn't the best definition.
As for me, I present female 24/7 (no longer own any male clothing), and I've changed my legal name and all the legal documents I've been able to change. Virtually no change in my life-style since it wasn't particularly "masculine" anyway.
Quote from: aaggat on August 16, 2014, 05:34:42 AM
Well, in UK Gender Clinics full time (or RLE) means committing yourself to your female identity and publicly living as that identity. It has nothing to do with clothes. The shrinks mainly look for:
- Legal change of name
- Telling doctors, banks, government, tax authorities, employer, etc about your new name and gender
- Ideally, letters or emails from friends and family. Supportive or hostile, either will do
They like an evidence trail in terms of continuous documentation such as bank statements, pay slips and so forth. The more paperwork the better. The reasoning goes that if you change your life's paperwork then you cannot really hide your transition.
What you wear and how you look are your choices.
Well, that might be so in the UK, wish I lived there I woulda' transitioned in the summer of 2000 when I turned 18. But, it's not so easy in America and not only is money an issue, but in many states changing your name let alone your gender is harder than jumping thru moving rings of fire while walking a tight rope. Then, if maybe you had very severe dysphoria or whatever you want to call it, and turned to drugs to lessen the emotional pain because you were never able to play male or disconnect yourself from your emotions, chances are you have a criminal record. Maybe you overcame that. I did. But America isn't as free as people like to say. [Insert rant here]. And your past follows you like starving shadow waiting to strike. Or, maybe when the economy collapsed, your industry, which you excelled at, women's magazine editing or publishing in general, plummeted, leaving you in financial upheaval. Now you have a judgement. In PA, well, you have to get rid of that before a name change.
So, even though I live full-time as a woman, even though I will have SRS next October if all goes right, the name change is going to be hard. I don't even pass as a man without makeup and in men's clothes, but according to UK definitions I'd be less full-time than someone who just started transitioning, never appears in public as female but only changed their name and gender (cause it's easy there) and there work accepts that. I'm not bashing that or putting anyone down or saying I'm more female than anyone else (I'm just a little irked cause I just learned about all this).
So, would I be full-time or female in society even though no one believes I'm a man, people ask me why I don't have kids or why am not married, just because of arbitary words on some legal documents nobody ever sees?
PS: I'm sorry in advance if someone takes offense to this, as it's not my intention. I just needed to rant. I think it's wonderful peeps can change their names and gender. I just wish I could too.
Quote from: Rose City Rose on August 16, 2014, 03:01:32 AM
For me it meant:
1. Never presenting male.
2. Continuing to improve my wardrobe, hair, face, etc.
3. Never using my birth name unless legally required to do so.
4. Taking the appropriate steps to change my name and gender marker.
As for makeup, I never bother. I have severe problems with hand-eye coordination which would actually make me less passable if I tried it; I pass just fine with no makeup at all though I might eventually try some mascara and eye shadow since those don't require drawing straight lines (i.e. eyeliner, lipstick) or applying precise amounts in an even coat (i.e. foundation); those are tasks I have had lifelong difficulties with (my handwriting looks like an eight-year-old).
Other than for lipstick, nail polish, and possibly mascara; I think that makeup looks rediculous and makes one look like a painted @@**##.
Quote from: mac1 on August 16, 2014, 01:55:53 PM
Other than for lipstick, nail polish, and possibly mascara; I think that makeup looks rediculous and makes one look like a painted @@**##.
Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you do realize the cosmetics industry rakes in $170+ billion yearly. The majority of those sales are women. Ulta netted $3 billion alone last year. So, statistics and facts don't lie, women like (if not love) makeup. In a study, 90 percent of women would not go on a first date without makeup. The figure is similar, if not slightly higher, for job interviews.
Some women have natural beauty and don't need it, like my best friend from college. She was model pretty. All my friends wear makeup. I was once in a car with my ex and everyone was playing with makeup and my ex's friend said "Joanna, this is what girls do when they're bored. Here, try my eyeliner, it looks like you forgot yours." The implication being I'm a girl. I get that, got that actually, since I was, well, forever.
So while you may find that makeup makes women looks freakish or whatevr those symbols meant, it was kinda insulting to women who like makeup. I'm sure that wasn't your intention but makeup applied correctly hardly makes one look like a clown or freak. I pass with or without it but I wear it because I like it. No love it. Always have. Always worn it. So, yeah, I'm just saying.
I know it's popular or a thing for some trans women to say wearing makeup is a steroetype but I think that is misogynistic and puts down women for just wanting to look their best and usually it is just for us. My BF asked why I like it so much, cause he doesn't like it, most men don't, cause most men don't spend time on beauty and fashion sites, but in Iran makeup sales are booming so this is hardly some Western thing. Women the world over like it. We shouldn't be shamed for it.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 16, 2014, 02:13:20 PM
. . . I pass with or without it but I wear it because I like it. No love it. Always have. Always worn it. . .
Women the world over like it. We shouldn't be shamed for it.
I'm with you, Sister, 100%. I love my makeup. "Don't leave home without it!"
Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 16, 2014, 02:13:20 PM
I know it's popular or a thing for some trans women to say wearing makeup is a steroetype but I think that is misogynistic and puts down women for just wanting to look their best and usually it is just for us. My BF asked why I like it so much, cause he doesn't like it, most men don't, cause most men don't spend time on beauty and fashion sites, but in Iran makeup sales are booming so this is hardly some Western thing. Women the world over like it. We shouldn't be shamed for it.
I agree. If I could, I'd wear makeup... If I only knew how to apply it!!
Quote from: Auroramarianna on August 16, 2014, 02:44:01 PM
I agree. If I could, I'd wear makeup... If I only knew how to apply it!!
It isn't hard, not nearly as hard as you might think. When I started out, I was in despair. I've got the clumsiest hands anybody's ever had, and I'm the least artistic person you'll ever see. But I got the hang of it. Took me a few months, but I got there. I'll never forget the day I got it absolutely right for the first time. I looked in the mirror and I was blown away. "Wow! That's me, the real me!" I'd never seen myself before. It's quite an experience.
Look for videos on YouTube. There's thousands of them, lots of them for young girls just starting out and who don't know anything about it. You might take it step by step--moisturizer, foundation, powder, blush, etc. Get each one right and the whole looks good.
Another bit of advice: keep it as simple as possible at the beginning. Do only what you need to do to look good. Once you're confident with the basics, then you can go further if you want to. I've never actually gone further myself. I'm very satisfied with the results I've achieved, so why worry?
@Joanna Dark - Well, changing your name is easy (save for the court costs) in most US states IF you don't have a criminal record or large debts. Like you said if you have issues like those against you it can be harder to get a name change approved (since those are legitimate reasons for a judge to deny your name change), and in those cases you have to hope for a sympathetic judge who'd grant the change in spite of your record (unless the law bars a name change in your case altogether).
Quote from: tgchar21 on August 16, 2014, 03:36:59 PM
@Joanna Dark - Well, changing your name is easy (save for the court costs) in most US states IF you don't have a criminal record or large debts. Like you said if you have issues like those against you it can be harder to get a name change approved (since those are legitimate reasons for a judge to deny your name change), and in those cases you have to hope for a sympathetic judge who'd grant the change in spite of your record (unless the law bars a name change in your case altogether).
Well upon reading the law ( www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=54&div=0&chpt=7 ), it doesn't say anything about misdemeanors, which are the only crimes I have ever committed, and petty ones at that. One step above a speeding ticket. It states that it applies to "convicted felons" (do a CTRL F and search felon), so maybe that doesn't apply to me. But there's is still the judgement. I guess I could pay that or enter into an agreement with BoA to have it lifted or at least, get a letter from them that the change is okay and that they have been notified. It's a $4K debt. So I'd need a grand to settle and have it lifted. I think.
But I dont want to derail the thread with my issues. I live in Philly so I'm lucky in that I can go to Mazzoni and they have a legal dept. that will help me free of charge.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 16, 2014, 02:13:20 PM
........................
I know it's popular or a thing for some trans women to say wearing makeup is a steroetype but I think that is misogynistic and puts down women for just wanting to look their best and usually it is just for us. My BF asked why I like it so much, cause he doesn't like it, most men don't, cause most men don't spend time on beauty and fashion sites, but in Iran makeup sales are booming so this is hardly some Western thing. Women the world over like it. We shouldn't be shamed for it.
Personally I think that women look better natural than they do with all of the makeup that some use.
Quote from: mac1 on August 16, 2014, 07:00:20 PM
Personally I think that women look better natural than they do with all of the makeup that some use.
I just use eyeliner and a light touch of foundation
Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 16, 2014, 04:00:26 PM
Well upon reading the law ( www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=54&div=0&chpt=7 ), it doesn't say anything about misdemeanors, which are the only crimes I have ever committed, and petty ones at that. One step above a speeding ticket. It states that it applies to "convicted felons" (do a CTRL F and search felon), so maybe that doesn't apply to me. But there's is still the judgement. I guess I could pay that or enter into an agreement with BoA to have it lifted or at least, get a letter from them that the change is okay and that they have been notified. It's a $4K debt. So I'd need a grand to settle and have it lifted. I think.
But I dont want to derail the thread with my issues. I live in Philly so I'm lucky in that I can go to Mazzoni and they have a legal dept. that will help me free of charge.
I think with judgments as long as you notify the debtor that you're seeking to change your name you should be OK (the court's concern is that you may be trying to escape the debt, and if they know your new name that's not a problem).
For me, the difference in seeing a guy in the mirror and a woman, is mascara... It's crazy the difference it makes!
Quote from: mac1 on August 16, 2014, 07:00:20 PM
Personally I think that women look better natural than they do with all of the makeup that some use.
Oh and that's perfectly cool. I agree in fact. Sometimes women go overboard cause of insecurities, boredom, all kinds of things. I know I did at first and my BF didn't say anything then but he has said that he's so thankful I wear so much less now or at least know what I'm doing cause I looked bad with all of it on and i went from being pretty and passable with a little to looking like a bad circus clown without it. Too much can hinder you're passing ability.
So now worries.Hope I wasn't too harsh I didn't mean to be Mac1.
Personally, I enjoy dresses and always have and skirts with the right blouse. I enjoy those more than jeans which I wore forever as a guy anyway.
I'm fortunate that I am not big boned, just a bit tall at 5'10" but not so tall as to demand excessive attention. My goto makeup during the day is just a light foundation, and a very toned down lipstick that doesn't scream at people. As the facial hair removal proceeds, I hope to eventually just skip the foundation, or reduce it even further, and just choose a basic lipstick that isn't too loud. My daughter has been trying to get me to just do eyeliner daily but I've not adopted that yet. She does, without eye shadow at all, and it looks good on her. :) Maybe I'll get braver.
Quote from: stephaniec on August 16, 2014, 11:52:15 AM
I just noticed your hanging out with the kat
Cougar, that is. I thought it was an entirely appropriate picture.
I always saw full-time as meaning that you are open about being female to everyone (or almost everyone) in your day-to-day life, such that if you met anyone new, you would introduce yourself to them a a woman.
How you dress, act etc. doesn't seem as important...