I guess I've come out to my company a bit sooner than I thought I would. The company has recently grown to a size where they have to show compliance. In America, EEO stands for "equal employment opportunity" and the voluntary form they asked me to fill asked only two questions: race and gender. The gender question was a choice of two boxes, check one: "Male" or "Female." No way was I going to ever pretend to be male again. Stick a fork, I'm done. So I told them I'm female and e-mailed the form back to them.
I've been checking "female" on forms for quite a while now, despite my glacial progress toward transition. Until now, I always guessed that the data entry person would assume I'd made a mistake, and change it to "male" without further ado. I really hope that won't happen this time. I didn't absolutely have to fill this form if I didn't choose to, but they were kind of leaning on me to go ahead, and I must have felt the urge to come out and get the waiting over with already.
The company I work for has about 40 employees... only 3 of whom besides me are women. Two of those women help to run the office, and only one is an actual professional. It's extremely male-heavy. They should thank me for helping them to look better to the EEOC.
Quote from: Hypatia on August 01, 2007, 09:33:18 PM
I've been checking "female" on forms for quite a while now...
You might wanna be a bit careful with that, as while I certainly understand your plight, the fact remains that you are *legally* male... and it might be considered lying or fraud?
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on August 01, 2007, 10:30:24 PMthe fact remains that you are *legally* male
What exactly does that mean? By which definition, which authority exactly? Who rules my gender "legally"?
Quote from: Hypatia on August 01, 2007, 10:44:46 PM
Quote from: Kate on August 01, 2007, 10:30:24 PMthe fact remains that you are *legally* male
What exactly does that mean? By which definition, which authority exactly? The DMV?
Well I dunno, I guess it's a judgement call you'll need to make per circumstance.
Has management been officially informed? If so, maybe working with them would be a good idea?
~Kate~
That was how they were informed. Either they'll ask why I did that, and I'll show them the letter from my therapist and invite them to call him... or they'll ignore it. Based on my experience in life so far, the latter is far more likely. People have a way of not seeing whatever they choose not to see.
Anyway, I have seriously had it and WILL NOT claim maleness any more for any reason, not under any circumstances. I don't care any more what they do to me, to say male is a lie and I'm through with lying. Anyone doesn't like it, screw 'em.
Besides, at what point, in your estimation, could I become able to say female without risking trouble? Why not say it right now and get it over with? What the hell was I waiting for anyway?
Quote from: Hypatia on August 01, 2007, 10:54:31 PM
I don't care any more what they do to me, to say male is a lie and I'm through with lying. Anyone doesn't like it, screw 'em.
Not to be harsh, I mean I DO get what you're saying and admire your determination, BUT...
It's that attitude which ruins transitions at work (and everywhere else). You're risking creating resistance and enemies with people you want as allies.... and why? Why NOT just go to management and present this to them formally? I don't mean dropping hints, I mean develop a plan, create a information package, and have a one-on-one meeting with the appropriate person and discuss your concerns and plans in detail. Bring them into the process, give them a chance to work WITH you, set time frames, develop a plan for changing things over in ways that work the smoothest for BOTH of you?
QuoteBesides, at what point, in your estimation, could I become able to say female without risking trouble? Why not say it right now and get it over with? What the hell was I waiting for anyway?
Well, WHEN? is a scary judgement call you have to make. If you'e already intentionally outing yourself as you are, IMHO the sooner the better... but every work situation is different, so I really don't know.
People AREN'T the enemy. They *usually* are perfectly willing to help us, but only if we give them a chance, and ASK for help and cooperation. My therapist likes to say,
"if you push too hard, they'll push back." But if you extend them a hand of cooperation, they're probably shake it and ask,
"How can we help?"~Kate~
The whole program you outlined is exactly what I had in mind. However, they were after me about the EEO1 form yesterday. I got an e-mail saying that it had been sent out a few weeks ago and this was a reminder. (I just checked my inbox--actually I had not received it then, they were mistaken, yesterday was the first I knew of it). Anyway, it was a choice between ignoring it and possibly pissing them off, and coming out as female right away.
Needless to say, I do not approach my management with the "screw you" attitude, I'm always very polite and professional. In this forum I feel free to rant my private feelings. See the difference?
But the gender imbalance in that company is severe, and now that I think about it, it's starting to bother me a lot. Ironically, the only other professional woman they have is the one who gave me the idea of applying there. She picked that one to work for and I took her suggestion because I trusted her knowledge of business a lot better than mine. I don't know how she feels about it--I never see any of these people, I work as a subcontractor at at a different location--but the more I think about it, the more I hate being in such a lopsidedly gender-imbalanced company. I've been thinking of switching, but I haven't found any company in this situation that has a nondiscrimination policy for gender identity (http://www.hrc.org/stateoftheworkplace).
Anyway, I got a reply e-mail from her today, and all she said was:
"got it - thanks."
Hypatia, Why don't you just work within DC limits.
Most companies don't have that policy by the way within DC because they make a statement that any discrimination and harassment under DC law would not be tolerated. Gender identity/Gender Expression protections are part of DC law.
PS.
You work near the progressive nonprofit center/union headquarter of the universe. It may be time to search outside of the corporate box. From what you were saying you have a library science degree. Have you thought about a research job for a union or think tank. SEIU is always hiring, and trust me...they are very trans friendly as far as unions go.
Quote from: Hypatia on August 01, 2007, 09:33:18 PM
In America, EEO stands for "equal employment opportunity" and the voluntary form they asked me to fill asked only two questions: race and gender. The gender question was a choice of two boxes, check one: "Male" or "Female." No way was I going to ever pretend to be male again. Stick a fork, I'm done. So I told them I'm female and e-mailed the form back to them.
I've been checking "female" on forms for quite a while now, despite my glacial progress toward transition. Until now, I always guessed that the data entry person would assume I'd made a mistake, and change it to "male" without further ado. I really hope that won't happen this time. I didn't absolutely have to fill this form if I didn't choose to, but they were kind of leaning on me to go ahead, and I must have felt the urge to come out and get the waiting over with already.
When I started back to school I had all these forms to fill out. The first one had a blank that said "full legal name." It was before my name change so I put down what it asked for. Then on another page I hit the "male/female" question and checked female. Well, data entry people are data entry people. I checked the computer database, and I was recorded as Robert (female).
Quote from: Lisbeth on August 02, 2007, 01:10:47 PM
When I started back to school I had all these forms to fill out. The first one had a blank that said "full legal name." It was before my name change so I put down what it asked for. Then on another page I hit the "male/female" question and checked female. Well, data entry people are data entry people. I checked the computer database, and I was recorded as Robert (female).
It's a dangerous game to play though, as those little checkboxes often have practical consequences. Legal issues, insurance submissions, etc. When someone checks F and they're still legally male, sure... it's a nice moral victory. But don't cry
"discrimination!" if you get fired for fraudulently filling out forms. Don't most forms end with,
"By signing here I acknowledge that all of the above information is accurate?"I get that it's a moral victory and all, but I don't think it's worth risking a job over, ya know?
It's just not the way to transition, IMHO. Hints and lying on forms and pushing the luck with clothes... coworkers and management will feel like you're laughing at them,
"getting away with it," and will not be very appreciative of it all.
IMHO, if you're going to transition, just DO it. Be a responsible employee, present it to management as,
"I'm changing my sex, how best can WE do this to minimize disruption?" If you're male, check male until you're not. What's it matter? It doesn't affect day-to-day life. I'm still "male" on everything legally, but I'm she and her and Kate at work... which is FAR more important, isn't it?
~Kate~
When I ran into the same thing regarding my work, I avoided checking any box if I could help it, but I think I was forced to on the health insurance form (which I deferred from sending in for quite some time), and I think I checked the male box to avoid outing myself. After I came out at work, I was able to get them to intercept that form and change it to female. So, on my health insurance, they only know me as female.
Quote from: Kate on August 01, 2007, 10:30:24 PM
Quote from: Hypatia on August 01, 2007, 09:33:18 PM
I've been checking "female" on forms for quite a while now...
You might wanna be a bit careful with that, as while I certainly understand your plight, the fact remains that you are *legally* male... and it might be considered lying or fraud?
I pretty much always check female as well. I appear female to the world and my driver's license (a legal document) says female on it. So even though I haven't had SRS (which only means I can't change my SS or BC yet), I believe that should be enough to legally qualify me as female. Besides, with having a legal name of Melissa, nobody gives it a second thought.
Before I legally changed my name, I would usually just check the gender checkbox that corresponded to the name I was using in a particular situation.
Quote from: Melissa on August 02, 2007, 02:10:23 PM
I appear female to the world and my driver's license (a legal document) says female on it.
I've always wondered how much weight that carries. I've always thought of gender on the DL as simply being a *description*, just as height and hair colour is... but NOT a legal status? If you go to get married, they're gonna check your legal (birth certificate) sex, not your DL.
I mean what DO I put down on insurance claims if my DL says FEMALE in a few months? I guess I could... hey... ASK them, huh? lol...
But see, if I'm female on insurance, that may void my wife's coverage suddenly... I just don't know. But that's what I meant by not being too reckless about checking F everywhere just because it feels nice emotionally.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on August 02, 2007, 02:03:54 PMIMHO, if you're going to transition, just DO it.
Right, you wouldn't want to wear androgynous clothes and wait for others to give you "permission"; it's something you need to "own". ;)
Posted on: August 02, 2007, 12:22:54 PM
Quote from: Kate on August 02, 2007, 02:22:02 PM
Quote from: Melissa on August 02, 2007, 02:10:23 PM
I appear female to the world and my driver's license (a legal document) says female on it.
I've always wondered how much weight that carries. I've always thought of gender on the DL as simply being a *description*, just as height and hair colour is... but NOT a legal status? If you go to get married, they're gonna check your legal (birth certificate) sex, not your DL.
I mean what DO I put down on insurance claims if my DL says FEMALE in a few months? I guess I could... hey... ASK them, huh? lol...
But see, if I'm female on insurance, that may void my wife's coverage suddenly... I just don't know. But that's what I meant by not being too reckless about checking F everywhere just because it feels nice emotionally.
~Kate~
I believe when I got married, I just showed them my driver's license. If it were merely a description, I don't think it would have been such a hassle to get changed. Plus they now require you to have surgery in the state I live in to get it changed. Also, it can be quite comical in situation where it appears 2 females are legally married, like when I did taxes earlier this year with a tax service. The poor lady was quite confused.
Quote from: Melissa on August 02, 2007, 02:22:54 PM
Quote from: Kate on August 02, 2007, 02:03:54 PMIMHO, if you're going to transition, just DO it.
Right, you wouldn't want to wear androgynous clothes and wait for others to give you "permission"; it's something you need to "own". ;)
LOL, touche, but it was all part of a plan. I intentionally became more and more androgynous at work, but never to the point (before coming out) of it being obvious to everyone. You remember, I was constantly surprised at how people didn't notice anything, so I kept pushing a little further.. but HAD they noticed, I would have stopped at that point. I wanted to get as far as I could WITHOUT creating a stir, then come out officially.
I figured the "less male" I was when I came out, the less of a shock it would be. But I also didn't want to wait until everyone figured it out on their own either. When the scales tipped, I came out, and apparently timed things pretty well. A few people had guessed my secret (due to HRT changes, not clothing), so I may have even waited a little too long.
As for JUST DO IT, I'm not talking about rushing things. I mean don't drop hints and check F on forms and expect people to somehow transition you without a formal coming out. Just Do It and create a plan, tell management when the time is right, and work it out together.
And yes, I messed up a LOT of things in my transition, and in the way I dealt with my GID overall - especially regarding my marriage. I'm not trying to be holier than thou, I just don't want anyone else to mess up like I did.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on August 02, 2007, 02:38:10 PM
And yes, I messed up a LOT of things in my transition, and in the way I dealt with my GID overall - especially regarding my marriage.
Did you learn from it? If so, then you didn't really mess up, you just took the long way around. :) Plus, as far as I can tell, you really haven't lost anything, so maybe you didn't blunder as much as you think you did. ;)
Quote from: Melissa on August 03, 2007, 03:24:10 PM
Plus, as far as I can tell, you really haven't lost anything, so maybe you didn't blunder as much as you think you did. ;)
I had some help in correcting my course in time ;)
~Kate~
:)
Quote from: Kate on August 02, 2007, 02:03:54 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on August 02, 2007, 01:10:47 PM
When I started back to school I had all these forms to fill out. The first one had a blank that said "full legal name." It was before my name change so I put down what it asked for. Then on another page I hit the "male/female" question and checked female. Well, data entry people are data entry people. I checked the computer database, and I was recorded as Robert (female).
It's a dangerous game to play though, as those little checkboxes often have practical consequences. Legal issues, insurance submissions, etc. When someone checks F and they're still legally male, sure... it's a nice moral victory. But don't cry "discrimination!" if you get fired for fraudulently filling out forms. Don't most forms end with, "By signing here I acknowledge that all of the above information is accurate?"
I get that it's a moral victory and all, but I don't think it's worth risking a job over, ya know?
It's just not the way to transition, IMHO. Hints and lying on forms and pushing the luck with clothes... coworkers and management will feel like you're laughing at them, "getting away with it," and will not be very appreciative of it all.
IMHO, if you're going to transition, just DO it. Be a responsible employee, present it to management as, "I'm changing my sex, how best can WE do this to minimize disruption?" If you're male, check male until you're not. What's it matter? It doesn't affect day-to-day life. I'm still "male" on everything legally, but I'm she and her and Kate at work... which is FAR more important, isn't it?
~Kate~
Kate. I am pretty sure she works in DC. If she does you cannot be fired for checking the gender box a certian, way, and firing her would be considered discrimination. It is not considered fraud in DC to put forth a gender on a form that does not mesh with your gender with the SSA.
This is pretty much the case in most states which have gender identity provisions. You cannot get fired for "fraud" if you put forth a gender different than your SSA/Birth Certificate gender on forms if there is gender identity protections in place. This is at the heart of these protections.
Hopefully that clarifies somethings.
Quote from: Kate on August 02, 2007, 02:03:54 PM
"By signing here I acknowledge that all of the above information is accurate?"
I pay attention to where forms say that. EEO forms, just like my Student Information Form are not legal documents. They are for statistical purposes only.
BTW, I got a call from the passport office yesterday about my application.
"I see that you changed your name to Elisabeth from Robert, but you checked 'Male' on the form. Do you want it that way, or would you prefer 'Female?'"
"I didn't think I had a choice. I would prefer 'Female' if I'm allowed to."
"I'll check with the bosses."
Turned out my first reaction was right. It has to be "Male."
Quote from: Hypatia on August 01, 2007, 09:33:18 PM
......The company has recently grown to a size where they have to show compliance. In America, EEO stands for "equal employment opportunity" ........
Hypatia....
I came out to my company the middle of June this year. I work for a very large company, but I pointed something out to the HR Manager anyway. I told her I was going to vastly improve this branches diversity profile. I said " not only are you getting another female employee, but a transsexual employee, and a lesbian employee, all in one!"
I figure I'm damned near invaluable now! lol...
Crazy Bev
Quote from: Amy T. on August 03, 2007, 03:39:07 PM
Kate. I am pretty sure she works in DC.
I really
ought to find a job in the District. It's starting to look like the Promised Land now. Unfortunately, my company is in Virginia, so if trouble happens, I have no legal protection. What I have is good rapport with co-workers and management. I have made myself a valuable worker and no matter what I am, they want to keep me. The boss (not of my company, but of my workplace) said he was telling my higher-ups that sure, I dress differently and have long hair, but that doesn't matter because I'm one of the best.
Kate, I understand everything you're saying about not dropping hints and doing it gradually, but you understand each of our individual situations is unique and we each have to find whatever way we can to get through it. I feel your view of my presentation is a misinterpretation. I look at "Steve" Stanton going through life tightly closeted at work, in short hair, suit & tie, and wonder how the hell was she able to stand it like that all those years? I just can't. I simply cannot take it any longer.
I dress in 100% women's clothing at work, complete with makeup, jewelry, etc. (
and use the ladies' room on a different floor of the building) not because I'm trying to "drop hints" or do anything passive-aggressive, but simply because I
cannot f***ing stand it any longer... because I don't want to go insane, which is how imposed maleness makes me feel. I have to do this to manage my own well-being. I get noticed, of course, but so what? It has made several women like me better. As for men, I wasn't close to any of them anyway, so no loss there.
I'm not dressing feminine for them, I'm doing it for myself just so I can deal with living every day. Hopefully, if you put yourself in my shoes you can see where I'm coming from. The positive side to this is that when I do announce it at work, it will not come across as a shock, it may even be a bit of a relief.
Posted on: August 13, 2007, 09:03:38 AM
Quote from: Beverly on August 06, 2007, 05:29:29 PMI told her I was going to vastly improve this branches diversity profile. I said " not only are you getting another female employee, but a transsexual employee, and a lesbian employee, all in one!"
I figure I'm damned near invaluable now!
That's the spirit! You go grrl! ;D
I figure if the form asks "gender" then it's okay for me to check female. Or I do anyways. Because that is my gender identity. If it asks sex, then I figure it's more medical, and asking whether I have a penis or not, and I answer accordingly.
I always figure if it becomes and issue I can explain to them why I filled it out that way, and point them to many a resource to that effect.