This kinda makes my brain hurt.
I was thinking about the 1st time I have ever seen a transwoman (which was decidedly negative) and what I term as Off-The-Shelf M2F transsexualism.
So here goes,
Two decades ago I remember temping doing data entry at a ornamental plastic plate manufacturers office. The transwoman there (I'm sure wasn't a crossdresser she had breasts yet a decidedly masculine face) asked a coworker where a colleague was. The coworker said "oh, he's in so-and-so's office" and the transwoman looks, scrunches her shoulders cutely, giggles, and heads off with her "model on parade" look.
Is this real inner femininity expressed or a stereotypical version of it?
This also makes me wonder if my version of expressed femininity is really based on a patriarchy view of women as I was raised on and understood.
So don't transwomen who have been raised and socialized 'male' only act stereotypically feminine than their naturally cis women counterparts? Sort of borrowing an off the shelf image of femininity?
I don't know, but I wonder whether almost all behavior starts as mimicking. Masculine. Feminine. Cisgender women get decades to naturalize their behaviors. They get to practice everyday, and they suffer consequences for inexpert expression. Transwomen who transition have to be quick studies, else we come off as bad actors, even though it's no more acting than that of ciswomen. Maybe incomplete or early stage mimicking looks like a stereotype.
I've used this analogy before - sorry!! - but I think it's relevant here. But anyway ... My therapist once said that learning to present to the world as a woman is like learning to drive.
You look around and see countless people driving, so how hard can it be?
Then you try it and you can't work out how to do so many things at the same time. Just going round a corner you have to look in the mirror and indicate, and change gear down - being Brits she and I both learned on stick-shifts! - and brake, and turn and then change gear back up again and straighten the car and accelerate, AND IT'S SO DARN HARD!!
So there you are, crawling down the road with your L-plates and everyone can see that your a learner.
But you stick at it and you get better and you learn all the stuff that comes in books ... and then the day comes when you take your driving test. Maybe you don't pass right away. But in the end you do.
Now you're driving, but you still have to think about it. You have to consciously remember to do all the things it takes to get a car safety from Point A to Point B.
More time passes ... and then one day you suddenly realise that you don't have to think about driving at all. It's just natural. And you look at all the poor learners and you remember what it felt like to be just like them, and you feel for them ... but you know that in time it will be automatic for them too.
So, Evelyn ... I bet if you met that transwoman now, after 20-odd years, she'd be far more at ease. After all these years as a woman, I'm sure she can barely remember what it felt like to have a male body and present to the world as a man. All the things that once seemed so strange and made her so self-conscious - the clothes, the voice, the shoes, the walk, the gestures, the body - they've all just become who she is, and what she is ... which is female.
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
Shakespeare
We all copy and mimic others in situations cis or trans. We take note of leads and cues in how to act in situations, but are personality will usually always shine through. So what may of look stereotypical or mimicking behavior for an early transitioner finding their feet, could be perfectly normal before they started to transition
(Defining normal that's a discussion for another thread)
Admittingly this can all take a philosophical direction which is still interesting dialogue.
That said - so is "femininity" a learned trait after all? You have to 'learn' to feel and act feminine? If this is so then your feeling of femininity is extracted from what is culturally normal or learned from conditioning. Transsexualism seems to be more about changing ones body to match your inner sense of who you are, but the 'femininity' part is all external references.
If that's true, then I wonder if M2F transsexualism would exist if the patriarchy and it's cultural extractions of female rules didn't exist.
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 21, 2014, 07:21:24 AM
If that's true, then I wonder if M2F transsexualism would exist if the patriarchy and it's cultural extractions of female rules didn't exist.
Too many concepts mixed in the same bowl :). To answer this question - and sticking to biological/genetical origins of transsexualism - yes it would. It would even exist if MtF (or FtM) transsexual would be the last person on the planet (or stuck on the island somewhere in the middle of nowhere), cause those sex hormone receptors in brain would not be getting what they wanted to.
Hi Evelyn,
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 21, 2014, 04:37:24 AM
So don't transwomen who have been raised and socialized 'male' only act stereotypically feminine than their naturally cis women counterparts? Sort of borrowing an off the shelf image of femininity?
This question can actually be rephrased in a gender neutral sense to include everyone. The resultant answer surely would render those expressing any form of stereotypical image as somewhat superfluous individuals.
There are many situations in life that present themselves to everyone, allowing the individual to look inwardly and dig deep down within their character to find the integrity, authenticity and genuine individual personal traits that makes each of us truly unique. If you want it to be.
De masking ourselves is a choice. A choice that can render a lot of pain; but for those that have chosen, have never looked back and live an unimaginable reality.
Huggs
Catherine
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on August 21, 2014, 07:29:34 AM
Too many concepts mixed in the same bowl :). To answer this question - and sticking to biological/genetical origins of transsexualism - yes it would. It would even exist if MtF (or FtM) transsexual would be the last person on the planet (or stuck on the island somewhere in the middle of nowhere), cause those sex hormone receptors in brain would not be getting what they wanted to.
Really? ;D If Adam was born on an island, where would his sense of gender come from? How would his dysphoria manifest if he has nothing to compare it with? ;D
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 21, 2014, 07:41:04 AM
Really? ;D If Adam was born on an island, where would his sense of gender come from? How would his dysphoria manifest if he has nothing to compare it with? ;D
Last time I checked, he was not a transsexual, was he? Now, those would be great news for all religiously motivated bigots :) - the very first human being, made by God is.. a ->-bleeped-<-!*
*No offence or slur was intended. Really.
LOL well yeah I guess. ;D
But the question is still a good one. Would a dysphoric version of Adam 'want' breasts, makeup, mini skirts, etc. if he's never seen them.
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 21, 2014, 07:52:37 AM
LOL well yeah I guess. ;D
But the question is still a good one. Would a dysphoric version of Adam 'want' breasts, makeup, mini skirts, etc. if he's never seen them.
I dont want to replace dysphoric Adam's feelings with my own humble substitute, but my guess would be - he would still want something and most probably he would not be able to figure out what is what he wants... Quite probably he would grow up, undertaking risks and adventures, like hunting mamooths and riding dinosaurs (or riding mamooths and hunting dinos...), maybe join angels and protect Eden against hordes from the Hell (the special forces section, ofc) and do other cool stuff, but still feel unhappy for a reason unknown :(.
I know all the above-posted is kinda silly, but I could not resist and there is still a tiny point there which I was trying to make. Again, no offence against religion was intended. And no incitement of violence against mamooths or dinosaurs.
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 21, 2014, 07:21:24 AM
... I wonder if M2F transsexualism would exist if the patriarchy and it's cultural extractions of female rules didn't exist.
Really interesting question. I know that when I was young I so envied girls for the fact that they could do 'guy' things and wear very masculine clothes without compromising their female identity, whereas I couldn't step one inch outside the boundaries of acceptable male behaviour without being branded as a 'poof' or a 'sissy'. I used to think that maybe if I could have a little more leeway, then maybe I wouldn't feel so uncomfortable as I did, and do with my male identity.
I think for a lot of people, that safety valve would be enough to keep the dysphoria demons at bay - for a while at least. But I also suspect that it wouldn't be enough, because doing 'girl things would only, in a way, serve to remind me that the world still though of me as not-a-girl, and my body was still defiantly male.
The fact is, dysphoria comes from a far deeper place than mere behaviour ... and that means that gender comes from a far deeper place, too.
Great question.
People have accused my voice of being a caricature of feminine.
I don't care. I like my voice. It's sounds exactly the way I feel inside. (And although I'm not always taken seriously, I'm NEVER clocked because of my voice).
Maybe your coworker's giggle/scrunch/parade sounded like she felt. Maybe she felt like a giggly parading model.
I've always said that we're allowed to be whatever kind of woman we are.
well, personally I don' do to much different other than voice. my legs do n't work that well so any kind of different walking is no no. its really only my voice I think about.
Quote from: Carlita on August 21, 2014, 06:51:08 AM
So, Evelyn ... I bet if you met that transwoman now, after 20-odd years, she'd be far more at ease. After all these years as a woman, I'm sure she can barely remember what it felt like to have a male body and present to the world as a man. All the things that once seemed so strange and made her so self-conscious - the clothes, the voice, the shoes, the walk, the gestures, the body - they've all just become who she is, and what she is ... which is female.
That's very true, Id probably cringe if I put the clock back 30 years, next year will be the 30th anniversary of my srs, now over 30 years living as a woman, I can barely remember presenting to the world as a man. My clothes, shoes, my walk, my body and all my gestures are all feminine, my voice, a little husky, but feminine, I ws told once I sound a bit like Lauren Bacall, over the years Iv just become the woman I am now, completely female, I'm now a married woman and unavailable to other men ;)
Eve, I think many of your questions are intriguing and open up some good discussions, whether it be bad or good. I do feel though the only way you will get answers to many of your questions or observations is to just live your life as the woman you were meant to be!
I had so many observations, and wonderings of how I could blend in without looking like I'm trying to blend in! Some were as trivial as how I hold my steering wheel when driving, or my wording in texts and email, and even my writing (still bothers me a little). Many more were more important like voice, dressing accordingly, interacting with other women, discussing female hygiene when it comes up, interacting and accepting the courtesies of men.
Then there's the vanity ones such as hair, makeup, skin, walking, clothing choices. These are actually the easiest to attempt, but harder to do correctly. The only ones I am still not too concerned about are the walking, voice and clothing styles, my hair I have become accustomed to being what it is and like most women have only 2-4 good hair days a week......my skin?? that's another thread!!
I think what helped and also made it more difficult at times was that I that I never wanted to fake being me or over exaggerate any femininity. I believe the length of time I spent in my in-between stage did so much for me. Decisions such as using the women's bathroom, were almost out of my control. Rather than making my way into the women's bathroom with the attitude "I am a woman, screw you if you don't think so" I waited until I was getting strange looks, or if I was gendered female earlier. I remember my first time using the woman's room without looking the best. It was at a Kohl's. Even though I had used the women's often before, it was because I was gendered as a woman or a mother when with my children. This was the first time without really knowing what people thought.
I will honestly say I never worked on trying to be more feminine or trying to blend in, the only thing I really worked hard on was my voice, but I gave up after about 3 weeks of wondering if I would have to fake my voice the rest of my life. I can confidently say that I have very little concerns about my voice, and it feels very natural! I haven't been gendered female on the phone in years.....maybe I got lucky and just found the voice spot quickly....or maybe because I didn't try to over exaggerate. I have since come across women with deeper voices and men with higher ones!
Quote from: pretty pauline on August 21, 2014, 09:59:54 AM
That's very true, Id probably cringe if I put the clock back 30 years, next year will be the 30th anniversary of my srs, now over 30 years living as a woman, I can barely remember presenting to the world as a man. My clothes, shoes, my walk, my body and all my gestures are all feminine,
This is very close to how I feel after 5 years of transition and 3 years of legally being a woman. I still have some triggers but its almost as if I was this person my whole life. Sure I was meant to be a woman, but how I was before was nothing like I am now. My virtues, values and morals (well some improved) stayed the same. Even some of the traits I had before were there, but I never was able to show them much.
I think the biggest change I have had to become accustomed too but also welcomed was how I am treated like such a fragile, meek and caring person from men! (Though its not unfamiliar to how men treated me before, I was never taken serious). Some times this isn't a good thing, but most times it is. I now want my knight to come rescue me!
Even in saying this, I still have one thing a woman doesn't have!! UGH!!!!
First of all, there is no such thing as "real" femininity. Femininity by definition is "the quality of being female." So anyone who is female is by nature feminine.
What we usually call "feminine," though, which is basically nothing more than a cultural construct, it is indeed mostly just from cultural pressure.
There are some biological differences between boys and girls, mostly brought on by hormone exposure, which is generally what accounts for children's natural tendencies toward either being more quiet and social or more aggressive and competitive, more "alpha" or more "beta," but that's where it ends. The rest is added on by culture and socialization.
Culture takes those natural tendencies and completely throws them out of proportion. It teaches girls that they aren't supposed to be leaders, that leadership is unfeminine. It teaches them that math is unfeminine. They grow up with toys that are all about social skills rather than construction and engineering and math and science. And they're constantly taught that the number one thing that they need to value about themselves is their appearance.
In Elementary school, the amount of children who want to become president is equally 50% girls and 50% boys. By the time they reach middle school, though, that number drops to 20% girls and 80% boys. That should tell your right there the impact that socialization has on girls, and that the difference is social rather than genetic. In countries where the culture has been deemed to be the least gender-biased and least gender-segregated, namely Iceland, Sweden, Finland, and Norway, girls actually scored better than boys in math. In other countries, even though girls only scored 2% lower than boys on average in math, they were 40% more likely to say that they felt "helpless" while doing a math problem.
If you've never seen this video, (http://tinyurl.com/l4pkjtq) where a teacher started segregating students based on the color of their eyes, and those with blue eyes were told that they were smarter and superior to those with brown eyes, watch it. It shows the power that socialization has on us. After a while, these cultural constructs started becoming true. Self-esteem dropped in the group that was told they were not as good, and grades started dropping. And it was all just based on a social construct of being told how they weren't supposed to act, and what they weren't supposed to be good at.
Watch a few feminist videos, and you'll see pretty quickly where all of this cultural femininity comes from. It comes from constantly being talked over by men, constantly taught that being smart is unfeminine, constantly asked about their appearance but not about their accomplishments, constantly asked about whether they have kids or a boyfriend or not, and constantly inundated with advertisements about beauty products and unhealthy body images.
Basically, our cultural notion of femininity is in and of itself a construct. It's something that women themselves have learned through years of being forced into the subordinate role by society. Which is why so many of these "feminine" behaviors you're probably thinking of involve being closed-off... crossing your legs, keeping your arms in, automatically apologizing for everything, walking with your legs more together, using diminutive language like "I'm not sure, but...", being circuitous rather than asking for things directly ("do you want to..." instead of "could you please..."), and why their hand gestures and body motions tend to be more passive, more "I hope I'm not getting in anyone's way," and why women are more likely to be afraid that they're not good enough, only applying for promotions when they meet 100% of the qualifications, while men on average will apply for one when they meet only 60% of the qualifications. These are all learned behaviors, which come with the territory of constantly being pushed into the subordinate role and constantly having your abilities diminished and questioned by society. And this is likewise why "male" social behaviors are all about taking up space, being direct, being confident, and "aggressive" behaviors that are confrontational and signal to the other person "there's a man in this space, move over."
Kids do not start out life with these behaviors. They're learned.
Likewise, we as trans women generally start learning them the moment we start self-identifying as female, because from that point on we're trying to live up to society's standards of femininity. As we start seeing ourselves as female, we start internalizing how a woman is supposed to act, and we'll emulate it. And once we are female socially, and we actually are subjected to these same expectations and social norms that all women are, they'll sink in even faster. There can be some conscious process involved, but for the most part it just takes time and it just takes seeing oneself as female and wanting to fit in as female, and they'll come. The longer you've been full-time, and the more people see you as female, the more you'll find yourself becoming "feminine" without even noticing it.
Speaking from my limited experience being full-time, (and I was a very big guy pre-transition... large built, big boned, and 6'2" tall,) the way people treat me has COMPLETELY changed. When you're male socially, you're constantly subject to openly competitive behavior... people telling you that you should play sports, acting defensive around you, assuming that you don't want to be bothered, and immediately assuming that you're a threat. I HATED that. Where now as a girl, even though I'm still just as tall, it's almost like that same personal bubble ceased to exist. People are now automatically speaking to me in a pleasant tone, automatically assuming that I'm nice, they're quicker to forgive me, I'm constantly being asked about boyfriends and family instead of whether I sleep with girls and go on hi-LAR-ious drunken escapades, and all of that other masculine bulls***. Plus when people ask me if I played sports now, it's in a much softer tone, almost like they're telling me "you played sports? Aw, that's so cute," versus the old "yeah! You played sports, you big tough manly man you!" The difference in how people treat you when you're female versus male is just completely ridiculous. As a guy, you're automatically assumed to be tough and confrontational, as a girl you're automatically assumed to be cute and passive and naive.
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 21, 2014, 07:21:24 AM
Admittingly this can all take a philosophical direction which is still interesting dialogue.
That said - so is "femininity" a learned trait after all? You have to 'learn' to feel and act feminine? If this is so then your feeling of femininity is extracted from what is culturally normal or learned from conditioning. Transsexualism seems to be more about changing ones body to match your inner sense of who you are, but the 'femininity' part is all external references.
If that's true, then I wonder if M2F transsexualism would exist if the patriarchy and it's cultural extractions of female rules didn't exist.
I can not speak for anyone else, but I know for myself I have always been feminine and people never had a problem letting me know just how feminine I am. "You're such a girl,"OMG, you so feminine," "How feminine you are freaks me out sometimes cause I forget that you're a guy," blah blah blah are things I have heard my whole life. I haven't changed my mannerisms or anything since transitioning, though I probably swing my arms more but that's prolly from my shape more than anything else and the clothes I wear.
But if gender and its roles were outlawed, I highly doubt you can outlaw it or that it is not some innate thing, I would still take hormones and transition. If everyone in the world disappeared, I would still transition. But then I'd have a hard time finding a good, I mean any, surgeon lol
So, for me, I don't think patriarchy has anything remotely to do with my transition. Nor has it influenced me that much. I guess I received male privilege though, the privilege to be beat up over five to 10 times for being a "queer."
Wow Evelyn, always such interesting topics.
I don't think I'm stereotypical, I've never overdone anything, never played that hyper-femininity that is classically used on trans portrayal. This was actually one of those things my mom was worried about when I first came out to her, too much Jerry Springer and other bad sources for trans related knowledge. I just reassured her that those images are not who I am, that I will still be me. Always ever with me it was about being as natural as possible, to be feminine yet still be very much myself with a few little tweaks here and there, basically just let myself free, but a slow gradual process to allow me to fall into place comfortably, but I know from personal experience adapting was not easy. Everything starts out with mimicry, that's how we learn at first (humans as well as other animals), but I think true femininity lies within, as I don't think the average masculine joe could ever pull off female without it being forced feeling, merely acting and ever will be. Could Adam as manly as he is over time if forced to act female actually become female having been doing it so many years, maybe, perhaps, but would he as a she be happy that way, probably not because he never felt that way to start. I started out very awkwardly, but I knew I was woman inside, and over time things became easier for me, as with everything it just required learning, what to wear, voice trained, walking, posture, mannerism, ect. And even still, like with all things in life I am continuing to learn how, what it is to be female, at least as much that I could ever be. I have looked back on myself in old home videos, and I cringed, I totally had a lot to learn, I was terrified then, but knew it was something I had to do, but knew even then that eventually I would master it, it would just take time, practice makes perfect, what felt odd, unfamiliar at first over time just comes naturally. I'm not super girly girl, but definitely a woman. Many old guy interests and habits remain, but then that's a part of who I am, after all, I started out born and growing up that way, just added new ones to it, and besides while not common, girls can enjoy G.I. Joe too. :)
Quote from: Carrie Liz on August 21, 2014, 10:45:20 AM
First of all, there is no such thing as "real" femininity. Femininity by definition is "the quality of being female." So anyone who is female is by nature feminine.
^^ THIS
Quote from: immortal gypsy on August 21, 2014, 07:07:56 AM
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
Shakespeare
We all copy and mimic others in situations cis or trans. We take note of leads and cues in how to act in situations, but are personality will usually always shine through. So what may of look stereotypical or mimicking behavior for an early transitioner finding their feet, could be perfectly normal before they started to transition
(Defining normal that's a discussion for another thread)
Hmm... Shakespeare...
"Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."
Different Act, Different Play, some similar ideas, this one from MacBeth sort of suits me more.
So, What is "normal?" Parts of me are really feminine - other parts are really not. I can dress and go out and sort of make a go of it. Then comes the thought along the lines of "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." Then again, the more I look at things I find myself to be non-binary - so nothing really fits. Being non-banary makes me as much not female as it makes me not male. So being feminine or being masculine are both unobtainium...
Erin
Quote from: pretty pauline on August 21, 2014, 09:59:54 AM
That's very true, Id probably cringe if I put the clock back 30 years, next year will be the 30th anniversary of my srs, now over 30 years living as a woman, I can barely remember presenting to the world as a man. My clothes, shoes, my walk, my body and all my gestures are all feminine, my voice, a little husky, but feminine, I ws told once I sound a bit like Lauren Bacall, over the years Iv just become the woman I am now, completely female, I'm now a married woman and unavailable to other men ;)
How wonderful! I'm so happy for you, so impressed ... and so jealous!! :)
My take on this, from studying this specific issue before.
First, there are two aspects of masculinity or femininity. One aspect is purely cultural and is what many trans exclusionary feminists focus on because they want the differences to be purely cultural. Yet modern research, especially into trans people, reveals that there are fundamental brain differences between males and females, and that trans people very often have brain structures that look like the sex with which they identify versus the sex with which they are assigned at birth.
This makes things very complicated. How do we tell what is cultural and what is not?
Second, we live in a very patriarchal society that further emphasizes male/female differences and then tries to capitalize on those differences to make females subordinate to males. At one point, females were considered property for males in our society.
So, in my opinion, you can't separate the two cleanly. We're goldfish and we live inside the goldfish bowl. For us to speculate what life must be like outside the goldfish bowl is something we're not well equipped to do.
In my own case, I've not adopted excessively feminine gestures and such but after I came out, many female friends said they realized that how I acted was more feminine than masculine anyway. I socialize, love to talk and listen, and always enjoyed topics that none of the "other guys" enjoyed though I also enjoy topics that men may discuss too, such as politics or sports, because women can like those things too.
Most of my "adopting femininity" has been getting my voice to a decent place (still not happy there but it works), continuing to get facial hair removed, learning to walk as women do (and it's not what you think!!), and learning to not try to dominate interpersonal relationships, something I did before as self-protection.
P.S. If you want to learn a lot about how women walk, and no it's not all in the hips, then experiment with this walking simulator from a bio motion lab.
http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLwalker.html
Actually some biblical scholars think male and female did not exist before the creation of Eve: That Adam was androgynous. The creation of Eve from his body pulled out his feminine portion, leaving only the masculine.
http://judaism.about.com/od/jewishculture/a/What-Was-The-Androgyne-Biblical-Creation-Story.htm
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on August 21, 2014, 07:49:25 AM
Last time I checked, he was not a transsexual, was he? Now, those would be great news for all religiously motivated bigots :) - the very first human being, made by God is.. a ->-bleeped-<-!*
*No offence or slur was intended. Really.
I think that it is a mix of nature and nurture.
As I'm now more deeply exploring my trans-ness, I looked back on my life and noticed a few things.
I naturally did a lot of things that girls did. Girls' games, toys etc. I suspect if I was growing up today with more open parents I would probably be one of those who socially transitioned early.
My childhood pictures scream "tomboyish girl" if I didn't know any better who I was.
All of this even though the major influence in my life was my hyper masculine, "salty" dad and my grandfathers. My dad wasn't abusive or anything but he was extremely rough around the edges. The media couldn't have influenced much. We did't have the Internet back then and we didn't have cable TV. School couldn't be it either. I went to a boys' school.
Randi, I linked something in the Spirituality forum about Joseph and the Coat of Many Colors. You, or anyone with a spiritual outlook might enjoy and be surprised by the sermon linked therein. I know that I was. :)
Interesting reading.
Isn't it odd that many psych clinics demand nearly barbie doll like perfection and presenting according to the stereotype before they'll refer you to HRT?
That the origin of 'feeling feminine' isn't enough.
As with most discussions that consider what trans women can/can't and do/don't, it falls apart when you consider those who don't fit the stereotype.
Some women want to feel like a princess and some want to drive penis trucks and shoot penis guns. Both ends of the spectrum are valid and both are simply expressing how they feel. Trans or cis does nothing substantial to diminish or enhance either.
Theoretical abstracts about the differences a lack of society would create are entertaining yet pointless because society is a constant not a variable.
Any idea that attempts to exist in a vacuum, free from outside influence will be inherently flawed as nothing exists in a vacuum. Everything is connected.
All that having been said, sure it's true that beginners go a little overboard when they're learning. The same can be said of anyone learning anything.
100 internet points to anyone who can figure out if i ended up making a point or not because I honestly can't tell.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
If I'm female and I've always been acting to appear male, why am I having to try so hard to appear female? Why do I have to learn a whole new set of mannerisms? What's the difference from before?
Reading a lot if feminist viewpoints on Transgender issues is making me reexamine what may be an over simplistic POV for me.
^^ I guess it depends on your level of dysphoria and how far you want to reconcile your conception of gender. For some it's enough to expand on a set of behaviors. Developing a female 'repertoire' if you will. What culturally appropriately feminine behaviors you choose will depend on your environment I guess. It doesn't really come from within because femininity as stated isn't defined. It's socially imprinted. For instance, I'm sure what constitutes 'feminine' behavior will be much different for those existing in the Amazon basin vs a chic modern metropolis.
For others with more extreme dysphoria body changes and surgical intervention is needed.
As for me, I haven't really changed my manurisms or how I act in public since I began my full transition because I've always been feminine. It just always came natural to me because it's always been who I am. Of course, being feminine didn't do me any favors when I was being raised wrongly as a boy. in fact, it caused me several beat downs from other boys for my being so different, or so feminine. Many of the girls I knew growing up, and those in my adopted family used to tell me: "you should have been a girl, your too pretty to be a guy," or "We see you as one of us girls," yada yada yada, etc. Of course, my adopted father adamantly tried to get me to "toughen up" as he put it but it just wasn't me. Despite my hardship over my manurisms and femininity, I was a very strong minded child. I knew who I was, even if my adopted parents or their son didn't.
It was worse for me if I tried to act masculine. I was just horrible at it and never could fit in. Always the outcast never fitting in with males even as an adult. I was always seen as strange or eccentric, or crazy, or all of the above. The only difference was most adults didn't give me beat downs because of my femininity.
While I don't remember who said it, I agree gender habits are highly based upon stereotypes set forth by society. While I believe we as women can do anything a man can, society sees it different, sees us as weaker than men. Also likewise as has also been mentioned women are told it's not feminine to be leaders or outspoken, and that our looks are our best asset. I myself don't agree with these stereotypes, but they do exist and are a part of our everyday lives.
Personally I don't think there is a simple answer to Evelyn's question. There are too many degrees of authenticity to these stereotypes varying with culture and location, religion, etc. You do pick some interesting and complex, sometimes weird questions Evelyn I'll give you that. I guess that's why your so interesting of a girl to know.
Ali :icon_flower:
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 21, 2014, 07:41:04 AM
Really? ;D If Adam was born on an island, where would his sense of gender come from? How would his dysphoria manifest if he has nothing to compare it with? ;D
Topic twistI was thinking about the above and a had a curious question.
Say someone was born and raised on an island without any exposure to anything that's masculine or feminine. Everything from cars and war planes to barbie dolls, colors, smells and voices.
If said person was to sit in front of a slide show that showed images of exclusive male and female things and asked which things represented their respective genders, would said person be able to differentiate? Such as a mens suit [male] barbie doll [female] and so on.
;D
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 24, 2014, 01:45:26 AM
Topic twist
I was thinking about the above and a had a curious question.
Say someone was born and raised on an island without any exposure to anything that's masculine or feminine. Everything from cars and war planes to barbie dolls, colors, smells and voices.
If said person was to sit in front of a slide show that showed images of exclusive male and female things and asked which things represented their respective genders, would said person be able to differentiate? Such as a mens suit [male] barbie doll [female] and so on.
;D
Great question, Evelyn.
Because the way gender is wired into our brains is social. I.e. From what I've heard from lots of people, the message MtF people feel is less like "I'm female" and more like "I'm like them" referring to females that they see. That's how it was for me.
So without a social context, there would be no male trappings or female trappings. And, while there are inherently male characteristics and female characteristics, our island girl wouldn't have any experience with either male or female people, so would not be able to identify them, right?
^^ Right. Which leads me to wonder how a young toddler boy could possibly develop a gender preference for female things so early on.
If there are other constituents at play such as social influences in the household or other.
Maybe that's a big relevant question for all of us...
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 24, 2014, 06:46:05 AM
^^ Right. Which leads me to wonder how a young toddler boy could possibly develop a gender preference for female things so early on.
I would imagine it would be from seeing female people and noticing that she is not being given the opportunity they are. She want's to wear what they're wearing and play with what they have.
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 24, 2014, 08:03:28 AM
I would imagine it would be from seeing female people and noticing that she is not being given the opportunity they are. She want's to wear what they're wearing and play with what they have.
With this in mind, how would we be able to tell if Island Adam has just a sense of vanilla envy, or a more dysphoric sense of belonging. One passes, the other's permanent? Or is there something deeper to it?
^^ That's a tuff one. Maybe we emulate what we envy afterall. Without any social context to anchor our dysphoria, you just have to wonder where the origin of 'feeling feminine' really lies. If 'yearning' to be female is actually a learned trait. That we're choosing a social preference, and by choosing hormones we reinforce these feelings giving the illusion it was meant to be after all.
Welp. This discussion could start getting dicey.
Beating a dead horse?
Sorry, I wasn't aiming for dicey. It's just a question I've been asking myself a lot lately, and one I don't have the answer to. Pure, unadulterated envy would explain rather well why so many of us go a bit over-the-top feminine, or at least appear to, once we are finally "allowed" to do so.
But just because that might explain things doesn't necessarily make it true. I don't know.
^^ Hey Jera no worries, didn't even cross my mind. I think it's my speculation that could make things get a little dicey.
Some very real cognitive dissonance can arise thinking about this stuff.
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 24, 2014, 06:46:05 AM
^^ Right. Which leads me to wonder how a young toddler boy could possibly develop a gender preference for female things so early on.
If there are other constituents at play such as social influences in the household or other.
Real simple. I saw my mom and my aunt and I saw that I wanted to be more like them rather than my dad, uncle or other men. Long hair was what I wanted when growing up until I fully understood what breasts and a vagina were about (I had thought that mommy and daddy both had penises and all they used them for was to pee).
I had long hair until I was around 5. I was sad when mom cut it.
What if your father and other relatives also had long hair? How old where you when you understood the differences between female vs male sex characteristics and what their functions are and what they represent in society?
See I ask myself these questions also.
Do I believe I would have these same feelings if I where born in Calcutta, India (which is extremely patriarchal, women's rights are virtually non existent there) or what about the New Guinea Jungle?
Quote from: Evelyn K on August 24, 2014, 06:31:28 PM
What if your father and other relatives also had long hair? How old where you when you understood the differences between female vs male sex characteristics and what their functions are and what they represent in society?
See I ask myself these questions also.
Do I believe I would have these same feelings if I where born in Calcutta, India (which is extremely patriarchal, women's rights virtually don't exist there) or what about the New Guinea Jungle?
I can't answer for all people here, but I think yes I would. I think the issue here is that there's a difference between gender expression, gender identity and gender roles. These concepts are connected, but they are not interchangeable. Gender expression is that means someone uses to express their experience of gender, whether that's through clothes, attitude, demeanor, makeup, accessories, etc etc, gender expression often reflects gender identity, but not always. Most people have gender expression that reflect their gender identity, according to patriarchal notions of what's appropriate for each gender to wear/move/act. But there's always people who don't fit those roles. Like very butch women or very effeminate men. However, despite their gender expression, they never once doubt their gender. And there are very butch transwomen and very effeminate trans men. So it's not related to gender expression. Their mere existence proves that being transsexual is not a soically learned behavior. More like a brain map error, or just regular biological variance. Then there's the whole concept of gender roles, which is slowly decaying, women no longer are perpetually housewives and men are not the only "breadwinners". So I don't think it even fits this discussion anymore.
They (very butch women and effeminate men) identify as the sex they are, and this what makes us different from them. We experience body dysphoria because our gender identity is not alligned with our bodies. For me it's not really so much about gender expression, although I much prefer feminine expression over masculine. But I could live with a female body and male gender expression. I'd still transition because dysphoria is plainful. Although I do have to consider the circumstances. In New Guinea Jungle it's unlikely that I and we in generall would physically transition since there would be no resources and technical way to do it. That doesn't mean we couldn't transgress gender roles. A lot of African tribes are very tolerant about gender variance actually. In India, there's a community of transgender women who are called Hirja, they're cherished but they're also much much hated. They basically suffer from the hurdles we do, with the additional that most don't really transition with hormones at all. Some just have the surgery. They live at margins of society and are treated like dirt by society, often resorting to sex work. I think the hell they have to go through proves that even in the most patriarchal society and gender-imposing there will always be people transgressing these roles, and this unconformity can't all be socially acquired. But even if we lived in the most liberal and comprehensive society where boys can play with dolls and girls with action men, there'd still be transsexual people. Because the core point of transsexuality is the misalignment between gender
identity and body appearance/image, not gender identity and gender expression.
Very interesting question. I was dealing with this since I started to question if I am transgender. I think that great part of my dysphoria is based on the fact that I know there are women in this word. And I always(since puberty) felt strong jealousy and want to be like them. So hypothetically if there would be only men and female gender is non-existent I really don't know if I would have any dysphoria. I dislike my male body features but if there wouldn't be any other option to compare myself I would probably not even think about it. Maybe there will be some discomfort but maybe it would subside. However I am not a classic case of transsexual...I see my transition as a way to a better life where I can be comfortable with myself and be a happier person. I don't do it because I need to escape from some life-devastating dysphoria.