When I was first discovering my gender identity and discovering terms like "non-binary", I was definitely always interested in packing, binding, etc., but I wasn't so completely absolutely 100% dysphoric that I was immediately into the idea of transitioning, especially because my parents are very transphobic and I'm still finishing up high school/living at home. If I wasn't afraid of what they thought, I would have been much less nervous in the first place, and I've found that the older and more okay with my identity I have become, the more the idea of medically transitioning sounds incredibly appealing. So my question, I guess, is, are any of you on hormones, having surgery, etc, and non-binary? Was there some particular feelings that made you know you couldn't live passing as your assigned at birth gender?
Yep. Previous polls on the site indicate that roughly a third of us in the non-binary forums have undergone some form of medical transition and another third are considering it.
I'm among the more modified creatures, myself. For me, it was more about my form--I had some pretty bad physical dysphoria, so fixing that was my goal as soon as I found out what was possible. On the other side I've had a more "as is convenient" and "least disconcerting option" attitude towards social transition, given that I don't really have a strong gender identity of any kind.
But every person will probably give a different answer. We are all over the map in terms of how we identify and why we decided on medical interventions.
I'm mtf living sort of mta for various reasons.
Many of us in the non-binary/non-transitioning forest do proceeded with some procedures to reduce the nose so to speak.
Personally, I've effectively completed electro, and have been on low dose HRT for the last few years. Electro was sufficient to dull the dysphasia for a while, but as T related changes started, I felt the need to address that. HRT has allowed me to continue without going to a full transition.
This is a serious question, so please don't jump me. I am trying to understand non binaries.
What decides which way and to what extreme a medical transition is done by a non binary person? Is it Dysphoria, social construct, body image or what? ???
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 23, 2014, 01:18:29 AMWhat decides which way and to what extreme a medical transition is done by a non binary person? Is it Dysphoria, social construct, body image or what? ???
For me, it is dysphoria over having female parts - the breasts and uterus have to go as I have no interest in being fertile as a biological woman. I am interested in FTM bottom surgery as it offers the opportunity of having the vagina closed up and having the urine positioned to go through my pee-pee. On the outside, this looks like I am pursuing a male binary transition but the intentions behind it are that of a non-binary identity. I think of myself as a child in a grown-up body. I have dysphoria over my deepened voice and body hair from T but at the moment, I can live with that until I am able to have the time, money and energy into correcting them.
But I am one person so this is just my personal experience and goals I hope to achieve. :laugh:
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 23, 2014, 01:18:29 AM
What decides which way and to what extreme a medical transition is done by a non binary person? Is it Dysphoria, social construct, body image or what? ???
I'm afraid it's multifactorial and varies with the individual.
Personally, I have mild to moderate gender dysphoria. Transition has sufficient issues that it is not sufficiently beneficial for me to pursue it.
I hated my facial hair. So I got rid of it with electro.
I didn't like the T related age changes that were starting to affect me, so I went on HRT.
Presentation wise, I'm male, with subtle female undertones - shaped brows, well looked after facial skin, no facial hair.
Socially, I'm male, although I associate better with females - a bit of a social chameleon.
It's a compromise, but I've gone far enough that I can maintain my current line of work and social position.
Most non binaries go as far as they need to so that their dysphoria goes away.
Gotcha. Thanks! :)
Glad to have helped.
Add to that, some non-binaries truly don't feel like they belong to either camp and happily try and present as androgynously or ambiguously as possible. Stuffing around with small peoples minds with that sort of presentation is probably great fun. :)
You sound like my house cat. Never on the right side of the door! *giggle* ;D
luna nyan, that's a very interesting post. I'd class myself as m2f, but for different reasons I'm in a similar place to where you are.
For personal reasons I'm trying to delay transitioning for a while and just doing what I need to keep going - keep the dysphoria down and depression away. It's about finding a balancing point between my various problems. I suppose the difference is that even if I can live with it, I don't want to stay in this place, and non-binaries do.
I'm curious though, if my dysphoria goes away somewhere in the middle does that make me non-binary? I'm not sure what dysphoria means at the point because I'm pretty much binary. To put it another way, what if I reach a point in the middle where I only intellectually want to be female rather than really need it? I'm not completely sure if the binary is a matter of upbringing rather than something intrinsic.
By the way, I had to look up mta, and its not in the sites list of abbreviations.
Quote from: luna nyan on August 23, 2014, 08:16:38 AM
Add to that, some non-binaries truly don't feel like they belong to either camp and happily try and present as androgynously or ambiguously as possible. Stuffing around with small peoples minds with that sort of presentation is probably great fun. :)
I saw someone do that once, and there's no way I could do it. It was a fairly young person with very noticeable breasts visible though a t-shirt, and a beard.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 23, 2014, 08:18:57 AM
You sound like my house cat. Never on the right side of the door! *giggle* ;D
You misunderstand me. I'm always on the right side of the door. People just keep flipping the wrong side onto me.
Quote from: AnonyMs on August 23, 2014, 08:45:03 AM
I'm curious though, if my dysphoria goes away somewhere in the middle does that make me non-binary?
By the way, I had to look up mta, and its not in the sites list of abbreviations.
That makes you ambiguous. :)
If you would still prefer to fully transition then you've effectively got a comfortably stalled transition, even if the over-riding need to is gone.
Depending on the point of view, I'm either non-binary, or have a stalled transition. Personally I don't care about the label, I'm in a pretty good state right now, and that's all that matters.
MTA was the best approximation I could give myself. MTFTM would imply detransitioned... MTF would imply I'm actively seeking to progress binary transition, MTA is about as close an approximation to my current status - HRT, electro, and shaped brows have me male andro even without an andro haircut.
Quote from: luna nyan on August 23, 2014, 09:15:05 AM
People just keep flipping the wrong side onto me.
Lol! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: luna nyan on August 23, 2014, 09:15:05 AM
I'm in a pretty good state right now, and that's all that matters.
So true
Quote from: twhsb96 on August 22, 2014, 09:32:29 PM
So my question, I guess, is, are any of you on hormones, having surgery, etc, and non-binary? Was there some particular feelings that made you know you couldn't live passing as your assigned at birth gender?
I went through HRT and SRS. I had a need to seem myself as female. I believe that I had just as much drive to live and be seen as a woman as the traditional "binary" MtF who has know she was a girl since she was little.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 23, 2014, 01:18:29 AM
This is a serious question, so please don't jump me. I am trying to understand non binaries.
What decides which way and to what extreme a medical transition is done by a non binary person? Is it Dysphoria, social construct, body image or what? ???
All or some of the above depending on the individual, best to consider that each individual is uniquely different and all come out of a slightly different mold rather than a cookie cutter, all have different kinds of self image and perception of their world. As for me dysphoria was pretty minimal, but I had enormous PTSD issues that made me difficult to live with, along with the fact that my entire endocrine system had been chemically compromised by Agent Orange which was affecting the gonads adversely. HRT began, the nads eventually went and all the previous noise in my head went away as well, that was twenty years and another person ago. Do I want to be a binary woman? No because it wouldn't fit who I am to myself and to my family. Pretty simple stuff, there is no mystery.
This thread was very helpful :) I don't know where my life is heading.
But it'd be pretty amazing to just switch b/w male and female to please both my parents and myself. I don't know if that's possible.
and I say it again, I don't know what will happen to me, but I wonder if I can find middle ground that will make everyone happy.. Always thought of partial transition as 'plan B'. I don't know if it's realistic,
Maybe I'm not non-binary, but sometimes you don't get everything you want, and take what you get.
Jessica
The only motivation for medical transition for me was my dysphoria which had reached an almost uncontrollable level. After diagnosis, I started on what was expected to be a full transition, started hrt and gained immediate relief from dysphoria. Dressing F, I found the whole performance aspect required to present well, was frustrating, time consuming and in the end not necessary. I proceeded through FFS which caused me some distress and have pretty much removed all facial hair, modified my grooming and presentation etc.
Along the way I realised that the emotional benefits and the removal of my dysphoria, was all that I really needed. My endo worked with me to find the hrt level which achieved this objective and I am now in a very good place. My brain feels as though it has been completely rewired and this is great. I was uncomfortable with my breast development so had them reduced and I continue on my journey MTA or MTNB.
It appears that many folk don't feel 100% M or F, that most behaviours and attributes are falsely seen to be gendered and that many dress fairly similarly, if not androgynously. As a result I don't see the need to transition MTFTA when MTA pretty much gets me to the same place without further major surgery and associated family/professional and social trauma.
I am often asked if I was 21 and had the options that are now available, would I have chosen the same path. While intellectually interesting as it is not my reality or my narrative, I cannot answer this question.
For me, while my journey has been a road less travelled, it is a road that I have chosen and it has taken me to a very good place.
Safe travels
Aisla
I've considered medical transition. It's still on the table. I don't like my (male) body and think I might prefer a female one (or a reasonable approximation of one.) The only question is whether I dislike it enough to do all the treatments to make the transition, and to risk ending up with a body that isn't a reasonable enough approximation to a female one for me.
For me, this a separate question from my gender identy (="none of the above") and the gender role I'd choose. If I weren't so afraid of it being a daily hassle and something that would cut me off from everyone, I'd live as a neither-male-nor-female. I might choose female, because I'm so alienated from pretty much everything to do with maleness, but I would probably find it pretty limiting, too.
Probably off-topic, but how do people who choose to live as non-binary manage their social role, given that, in our society, almost all social interactions involve protocols that depend on the genders of the people involved?
Asche
For me this has involved a gradual change or evolution in the way I relate to others. As my rewiring (courtesy of hrt) has progressed, my behaviours, emotions and priorities have changed. My personality and drivers are completely different to where they were. Now it could be that up until hrt allowed me to find myself, I was too busy avoiding the risk of being discovered as a non alpha male, to give myself the permission and awareness to find myself. Either way it is what it is.
As I progress it has also become clear to many, that I am now a very different person. This change is accentuated by change in my grooming and the FFS which altered the structure of my face to a more androgynous appearance. It therefore seemed logical for me to tell upwards of 30 friends, some family, colleagues etc that I am trans* and identify as NB. This allows me to be authentic and to share with them who I am and why I have chosen to take this journey.
Social protocols do not give me much pause - I endeavour to be in the moment and to act authentically. If this is perceived by others as being more F than M, then that it is their filter. Frankly I think that most social roles and personal attributes etc are falsely gendered and I therefore consider them accessible to both F and to M.
Safe travels
Aisla
Quote from: Asche on August 24, 2014, 05:08:26 PM
how do people who choose to live as non-binary manage their social role, given that, in our society, almost all social interactions involve protocols that depend on the genders of the people involved?
I reject those protocols and live by my own.
If society can't keep up with that, it's their problem.
Societies protocols are nothing more than imaginary and as such, I recognize as one that I do not have to participate in.
Ativan
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 25, 2014, 11:59:40 AM
I reject those protocols and live by my own.
If society can't keep up with that, it's their problem.
Societies protocols are nothing more than imaginary and as such, I recognize as one that I do not have to participate in.
Ativan
Neither did I which brings to mind the song lyric, "Under my thumb!"
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 25, 2014, 11:59:40 AM
Societies protocols are nothing more than imaginary and as such, I recognize as one that I do not have to participate in.
One word: Awesome.
Roles associated with gender is a social construction which did not exist before "society" came about.
Non binary to me means we do not buy into the idea that we have to be all male or all female.
I have no desire for surgeries, yet my estrogen levels are quite deliberately through the ceiling, based on my endo taking full control and not liking my previous numbers. Yet I am fully non binary, and fully mtf, almost a contradiction walking around. Its totally unique. It's totally necessary, the pain of my physical dysphoria from the neck down is awful. And getting better a year and a half into this.
So, no FTE, no surgeries, no loss of the life I lived, just a socially softened presentation with nails and a face peering out of the mask that if you look close enough will be obviously female.
Is it static? Probably, due to collateral damage that would come on transition... but I still don't feel like socially presenting transitioned. That is for quiet times. My presentation is fluid, whatever I feel comfortable with and in, within the social context I am dealing with. No acts, just natural feel comfortable stuff.
But the hormones? Crucial. The hormone letter? It says I do not fit a traditional transsexual diagnosis. And on HRT, my endo system is all girl now, and it will stay that way.
So we are unique, our needs are varied, and for the NB's, we need really smart therapists that can figure out how to help us the most.
Society? Didn't they screw my head totally up? 50 years of unnecessary pain? GGGGRRRRRRR.
Nails out, hair waiting at home, heart wide open.
Quote from: Satinjoy on August 26, 2014, 11:01:48 AM
Non binary to me means we do not buy into the idea that we have to be all male or all female.
I'd put it another way. It's not that we don't buy in - it's that we don't consider ourselves on the binary.
Well said, and subtly revealing. Wonder who I think is trying to sell me on it - binarism - maybe goes back to very old hurts from the cisworld, and fear of believing complete transition is inevitable after I hit the wall, which I used to believe, and no longer do. And that one came from my own dysphoria, I think, and the odds of full transitioning. The non binary wildcard changes those odds. IMO.
Something to think about. Roots to examine. Something tied to either a resentment or a fear, useless baggage to carry.
The power in a word.
I guess the bottom line is that we can get what we need, although I wonder about the surgical part for some. My shrink won't sign off on srs... but that's tied to me, he thinks I'd regret it. I trust him.
Blessings, thanks for that correction, that insight.
--SJ
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 23, 2014, 01:18:29 AM
This is a serious question, so please don't jump me. I am trying to understand non binaries.
What decides which way and to what extreme a medical transition is done by a non binary person? Is it Dysphoria, social construct, body image or what? ???
My decision was because I became so disgusted with the female figure that was overpowering my prepubescent body ever since it began to change. I did everything that I could to hide the extra bits. The other parts such as the widening of the hips went somewhat unnoticed because I was so overwhelmed with having breasts... I loathe EVERYTHING about the female body so I guess it's the body image.
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 25, 2014, 11:59:40 AM
I reject those protocols and live by my own.
If society can't keep up with that, it's their problem.
Societies protocols are nothing more than imaginary and as such, I recognize as one that I do not have to participate in.
Ativan
Well, if you need to "go" in a place with only "men's" and "women's" bathrooms, you're going to have to choose one or the other. And if society thinks you've chosen the wrong one, they usually make it
your problem. (There's a whole forum on the subject.)
But I was thinking more of more subtle things. People interact with you differently depending on whether they think you're male or female, and there are a lot of behaviors that will be read very differently depending upon whether they think you're male or female. Explaining to them that you're non-binary, or neither male nor female isn't likely to help, since most people aren't consciously aware that your gender affects how they understand and respond to you. It's less of an issue when you're young, e.g., in University, but when you're older and need to build good relationships with co-workers or clients, or settle down somewhere and have children and want to get along with your neighbors and develop a social circle for yourself and your family, doing stuff that gets taken the wrong way can make things pretty uncomfortable for a long time.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 23, 2014, 01:18:29 AM
This is a serious question, so please don't jump me. I am trying to understand non binaries.
What decides which way and to what extreme a medical transition is done by a non binary person? Is it Dysphoria, social construct, body image or what? ???
I could give you all sorts of flowery language in which to couch the truth. But here's what did it for me:
1. I went on HRT because I've wanted to know all my adult life what it felt like to have breasts. This was such a powerful drive that I was willing to go down that one way road to find out. (And I'm not disappointed...)
2. I underwent SRS chiefly because I've wanted to know all my adult life what it felt like to have a female bottom. Once more, it was such a powerful drive, that I was willing to go down the one way road. (So far, I really, really like it :icon_yes: )
Quote from: Asche on August 26, 2014, 05:30:38 PM
Well, if you need to "go" in a place with only "men's" and "women's" bathrooms, you're going to have to choose one or the other. And if society thinks you've chosen the wrong one, they usually make it your problem. (There's a whole forum on the subject.)
But I was thinking more of more subtle things. People interact with you differently depending on whether they think you're male or female, and there are a lot of behaviors that will be read very differently depending upon whether they think you're male or female. Explaining to them that you're non-binary, or neither male nor female isn't likely to help, since most people aren't consciously aware that your gender affects how they understand and respond to you. It's less of an issue when you're young, e.g., in University, but when you're older and need to build good relationships with co-workers or clients, or settle down somewhere and have children and want to get along with your neighbors and develop a social circle for yourself and your family, doing stuff that gets taken the wrong way can make things pretty uncomfortable for a long time.
I'm a newbie and don't present as non-binary yet, but this is something I've thought about.
When it comes to matters of medical necessity or sexual intercourse, I'll give people my birth sex. Otherwise, in daily situations, I'll let other people place me in the box they think suits me best. Since I'm both male and female, I can't be misgendered. That's how I see it, anyway. I want people to judge me as a person, not as a gender, so I won't bring it up. I'll wait for them to do that, and give them as long or short an explanation as the situation calls for.
I guess the one exception to that is whatever schools or daycares my daughter goes to, since I will always be "mom" in my head. And to her, I hope. She's too young for me to know how I'll be treated (as a freak/predator? people involved in childcare can be paranoid), but I wanted to homeschool her anyway, so maybe I won't have to deal with that too much.
I'm probably going to avoid bathrooms or use the family restroom when in public...
Well I fully medically transitioned four years ago and did for a while consider myself as a binary woman. For me transition was all about my physical reality, in terms of gender identity I am starting to question things, I don't really identify with being a woman, though obviously being female bodied is a key part of my identity (I still carry a great sadness in me about not being able to be pregnant and have children) and I'm trying figure out if I identify as female as well. I've started thinking of myself as a queer grrrl, which recognises that I am kind of on the feminine spectrum, but not really a binary woman.
There is also the fact that, due to the lack of understanding of non-binary identities within the medical profession, if you strongly identify with certain aspects of the opposite gender, it can be simpler to play at being binary until it's all done and then just quietly go back to your preferred presentation after it's all done.