Say you've got an average mom who is proud of her son. She's got the usual photos up on the shelf - high school, college graduation, son doing something manly somewhere etc.
Then you come out. She's cool with it, but she wants to keep on display the same photos - she wants to remember the son she once had as well as the daughter she now has, and she has fond memories of him.
The old photos bother you, but they're not like a huge trigger or anything. Just an unpleasant reminder of some unhappy times for you, but your mom sees the photos differently.
Thoughts on this?
Well, if they're not majorly triggery for me, and they mean a lot to her, then sure. Honestly, I hardly ever notice old photographs sitting around, anyway. They sort of just become background scenery to me after a while.
Although I hate the photos, I hardly keep my trans*ness a secret, so I don't really care if she puts them up around the house.
I don't think I could "let" my mom do anything, but I know what you mean. My mother took down the old pics anyway, but she lives far enough away these days that I'd think my unhappiness for the duration of the occasional visit to her house (mostly, we meet somewhere halfway) was outweighed by the sentimental joy she took in the photos.
I actually have an 11 x 16 wedding photo framed and hanging in our bedroom, but that's a little different - it's not triggery, and it reminds *me* of how proud and happy I was that day, even though neither of us really looks like the kids in that picture anymore.
I don't mind childhood pictures, as that was a period of time where I was pretty happy with life in general. However, I am completely against having any reminders of my teen years, it's just too much for me to see myself turning into a man and having that faint smile behind which lies a dark and painful secret.
What would be a real concern is what happened to a friend. She started out as this friendly outgoing little gay guy and transitioned in her latter teens. Following going through all the usual hoops, FFS and SRS she remained strong willed, she refused to take my advice and tell her new boyfriend that she was trans. Later on they were married, he was a very hero-male with hispanic roots. One Thanksgiving they went to mom and pop's place for Thanksgiving dinner, mom had the usual pictures up of sonny boy, guess you know the rest, I'm sure t wasn't pretty! :icon_ballbounce:
If she wants to have childhood pics of you around the house, then to me that's fine, bcos it's not like she can go back and make you a girl, take pics and show those instead. But to me it's kinda unhealthy if it's bcos she feels like she lost you as if you're dead, hence why she likes the pics.
Quote from: Shantel on August 30, 2014, 12:02:48 PM
What would be a real concern is what happened to a friend. She started out as this friendly outgoing little gay guy and transitioned in her latter teens. Following going through all the usual hoops, FFS and SRS she remained strong willed, she refused to take my advice and tell her new boyfriend that she was trans. Later on they were married, he was a very hero-male with hispanic roots. One Thanksgiving they went to mom and pop's place for Thanksgiving dinner, mom had the usual pictures up of sonny boy, guess you know the rest, I'm sure t wasn't pretty! :icon_ballbounce:
Are they still together? Awful how not planning things in advance can turn out.
Quote from: Shantel on August 30, 2014, 12:02:48 PM
What would be a real concern is what happened to a friend. She started out as this friendly outgoing little gay guy and transitioned in her latter teens. Following going through all the usual hoops, FFS and SRS she remained strong willed, she refused to take my advice and tell her new boyfriend that she was trans. Later on they were married, he was a very hero-male with hispanic roots. One Thanksgiving they went to mom and pop's place for Thanksgiving dinner, mom had the usual pictures up of sonny boy, guess you know the rest, I'm sure t wasn't pretty! :icon_ballbounce:
I'm not trying to criticise your friend but I do struggle with the idea of keeping something like that from someone you enter into a deep relationship with. I probably don't understand the reasoning behind it as I haven't actively been seeking a relationship since I started my transition. Maybe I'd be reluctant to divulge information like that if it would jeopardise a close connection with someone.
Quote from: NatalieT on August 30, 2014, 12:10:09 PM
I'm not trying to criticise your friend but I do struggle with the idea of keeping something like that from someone you enter into a deep relationship with. I probably don't understand the reasoning behind it as I haven't actively been seeking a relationship since I started my transition. Maybe I'd be reluctant to divulge information like that if it would jeopardise a close connection with someone.
Well it turned out to be a stupid idea to withhold the truth, best plan always is to be honest otherwise the relationship is compromised from the start. It would save the woman a lot of ongoing anxiety and eventually the emotional and possibly physical pain that would come later.
Yes, I'll let her display old photos. The way I see it, I'm undergoing a radical evolution, not becoming a new person. My past will always be my past. And we should always be sympathetic to the fact that our loved ones cherish that past, trans or not.
Quote from: EmmaMcAllister on August 30, 2014, 12:44:33 PM
Yes, I'll let her display old photos. The way I see it, I'm undergoing a radical evolution, not becoming a new person. My past will always be my past. And we should always be sympathetic to the fact that our loved ones cherish that past, trans or not.
In this case? Absolutely! Great attitude Emma...
Quote from: Shantel on August 30, 2014, 12:14:50 PM
the truth
...is she was undone by an untruthful representation of her.
What is being untrue?
IMO deny all untruths. Destroy every single video or photo of yourself pre-transition that is unfaithful to your
true gender if you go stealth, which if you can in good order, I highly recommend.
Quote from: Rachelicious on August 30, 2014, 01:20:05 PM
...is she was undone by an untruthful representation of her.
What is being untrue?
IMO deny all untruths. Destroy every single video or photo of yourself pre-transition that is unfaithful to your true gender if you go stealth, which if you can in good order, I highly recommend.
You can do that and deny that you ever existed prior to the age you were when you transitioned, but it's a lie. There is always some medical record, photo, document, distant cousin, old friend or acquaintance, medical, police or service record that will surface and bite you in the ass. Good luck though!
I'm fine with my old pictures existing. Whether I like it or not my pre-transition life is still part of my life. I existed before I transitioned just as much as I exist after transition.
I don't go out of my way to show off my old pictures but I've come to terms with everything so I have no issues with my parents having old photos on the walls of their house.
Quote from: Shantel on August 30, 2014, 02:21:59 PM
You can do that and deny that you ever existed prior to the age you were when you transitioned, but it's a lie. There is always some medical record, photo, document, distant cousin, old friend or acquaintance, medical, police or service record that will surface and bite you in the ass. Good luck though!
Word of mouth and documents are almost laughably inconsequential post-transition. Videos, photos, etc are much more damning, particularly when they're in some sacrosanct like
your family's home. Or your own facebook profile. Or your family's. Father won't take down old family photos of you?
Don't friend him!! You take a way too all-or-nothing view. It is not denying that you ever existed, nor lying, to carefully prune the truths of yourself that you consider presentable. You can keep the good and omit the bad. The truth others think they're hearing do not have to be the truths that you are actually presenting to them.
Learn to be manipulative in ways that serve your interests without doing others harm or saying untruthful things. You do not need pre-transition people unless they have the respect to honor your hard-earned present reality by not keeping such things as trophies - at least not when it comes to the point where you're meeting people, in relationships, etc.
As for family, just ask them, "Why do you still have this photo up? Do you realize how uncomfortable this makes me, even just the thought that you're seeing this and still recalling me in this gender identity? Can we please replace this or otherwise not have it obvious for when, you know, my fiancee comes over who I really just want to accept me for who I really am rather than for who your artifacts would carelessly misrepresent me as?"
To me, the original story you shared just exemplified a carelessness of planning beyond belief. Surviving & thriving means having a predatory instinct towards anticipating and attenuating such matters before they become problems to your
real identity. If you're the predator towards these obstacles, you will win. It does not have to be hard, and it is the absolute most opposite thing I can think of from lying.
I detest the idea that one does not have the means or right to live fully actualized with no trace of pre-transition gender incongruency. IMO post-transition identity goal should not a shell with a weak little inner core that only the people you care about most know about and can potentially use against you. It should be to so harmonize your living self with your true identity that you and those in your life come to forget you were ever any different.
Rachelicious : That actually seems rather all-or-nothing of you, to be honest. I totally support your right to manage your own life and define your own identity as you see fit, mind you.
But as for me, I feel that I *was* a guy once, and I don't want to erase him. I've replaced him (sometimes it feels rather as if I killed him), but I value my past as well as my future. I don't appreciate constant reminders, but I also don't want to deny that it was a real part of me. A lot of those photos (which admittedly I don't hang on the wall!) have great sentimental value for me.
My mother can do whetever she wants. It's no secret nor shame that I'm trans. I'm just me and that's what I what I am. Hell, I still have "before" pictures all over my house.
I would let my parents keep up pictures of me if it was something that was important/influential in my past, like my boot pic from Parris Island, or Marching Band pics. I would try to take new pics (and especially ones that contain the grandkids as well) to replace the old ones that don't have that significance, like my senior picture or general portraits. That way, she can have pics of who I am with pics of what made me who I am (personality wise at least). Of course, its not like anybody (including me) ever visit their house, it's always somewhere else.
Quote from: EmmaMcAllister on August 30, 2014, 12:44:33 PM
Yes, I'll let her display old photos. The way I see it, I'm undergoing a radical evolution, not becoming a new person. My past will always be my past. And we should always be sympathetic to the fact that our loved ones cherish that past, trans or not.
This.
I'm not ashamed of who I am or who I was. I'm still proud if my accomplishments that are documented in photos. That was me that graduateid suma cum laude, that was me that sent myself to Europe, that was me that did all these things. I see my old self, and I feel proud of how far I've come. How hard I've worked. I'd never be ashamed of that.
My parents (mom and stepfather) do have pictures before and after. It doesn't bother me at all. They are in FL and I'm in NJ, but even if they lived next door it wouldn't bother me. It would bother me if they ONLY had picture before transitioning. I even have a picture in our house of my brother and I white water rafting 19 years ago when I was 25. It was a trip I enjoyed with my brother and don't see the need to take it down. (I looked androgynous back then anyway.)
I even kept "before" pictures in my Facebook page because I'm 100% out about who I am to all my friends. (My listing on FB is private for privacy non-trans related reasons.) I see no reason to take them off because it was what I looked like back then. When I look at them, it makes me so happy that I'm no longer looking like that and I wonder how in the world I was able to hold it together back then. I feel so much more like myself now and I don't have to fake anything anymore. It's simply a reminder of how far I've come and how much progress has been accomplished.
I don't mind. I look like a little tomboy girl with short hair (and one or two with long hair) in nearly all of them anyway.
My mother would place my new picture up on the wall with the other pictures of her three boys and tell people that they are pictures of her three handsome sons and beautiful daughter. We are all handsome or beautiful in a mothers eyes.I just wish she were still here to be able to do that, but she like all the rest of my family have passed and left me alone.If she were here she would be so happy because she knew I was special from the time I was born.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on August 30, 2014, 05:18:01 PM
I feel that I *was* a guy once, and I don't want to erase him.
This seems to be a major difference between people who are ambivalent or accepting of the past vs those who view it as an untruth to be rewritten. A lot of you are not excessively bothered by the discord, either that or you're extremely open about your transgender status, which good luck folks because legally that is generally something one is protected from having to disclose. How is simply harmonizing oneself post-transition "all or nothing?" Personally I think clinging to outmoded or false ways is drastic.
In Islam, there is a practice called Taqiyya, in which a believer is permitted to deny their Islamic faith or otherwise commit blasphemy when they are a minority and at risk of significant harm or persecution. I am not Muslim (trust me, I'm not) but in my own way, I view my past presentation as that blasphemy. There was no more ground for its existence. If I'd have been free from harm to choose as I please, I'd have never presented the wrong way even from the age of 5.
Some of you may be older or otherwise not in a position to account for all that has happened in your life, but for those who really do not have that much background, I see no reason to walk both sides (unless you truly see yourself outside the binary.) Matters like old photos call one to ponder all kinds of scenarios and personal views, but based on all the threads on surgery, training, etc. that I see here, I'd estimate most here transition because they
want to be correctly placed in the gender binary, not out of a willingness to keep pandering to the past and whoever is attached to it.
TL;DR make sure matters in your life that potentially involve you and any past identity are being handled according to your wishes. Carpe futurum.
Rachelicious : My apologies; I don't mean your choices for yourself are all or nothing, but that speaking as if all [binary] trans women ought to want what you want sounded that way. However, now that you've clarified that you do acknowledge a category of "accepting the past," I withdraw that comment.
I'm not ambivalent or non-binary. I just acknowledge that I personally was a man once, but I got over it. I would NOT have transitioned as a child if it had been possible; I transitioned precisely when I needed to. Those photos show someone who is no less me than the person I am now, is what I'm saying. I cringe at them a bit, but more and more it's becoming closer to the reaction I get when I see a picture of myself wearing a truly awful outfit or with a terrible haircut - less dysphoria, more "oh, jeez, that was an ugly picture." I'm comfortable enough with myself and my current incarnation that I don't need to deny who I was before, although I also don't revel in it or seek out those memories.
Interestingly, the farther I get from transition, the less it is an issue in my daily life anyway; there usually isn't a good time to tell people and many of those I knew pre-transition have stopped thinking about it, so I live like 90% stealth without even trying. (Although I work in a field that does background checks, so yeah, it's actually not as easy as "legally, you don't have to reveal that information." We'll see how that goes when I get a new job.)
Quote from: Rachelicious on August 31, 2014, 07:38:29 AM
Some of you may be older or otherwise not in a position to account for all that has happened in your life, but for those who really do not have that much background, I see no reason to walk both sides (unless you truly see yourself outside the binary.) Matters like old photos call one to ponder all kinds of scenarios and personal views, but based on all the threads on surgery, training, etc. that I see here, I'd estimate most here transition because they want to be correctly placed in the gender binary, not out of a willingness to keep pandering to the past and whoever is attached to it.
TL;DR make sure matters in your life that potentially involve you and any past identity are being handled according to your wishes. Carpe futurum.
You make valid points for those who don't mind moving away to another city, forsaking family and friends forever for the sake of putting one's old identity forever behind them, but it isn't done without a great and painful sense of loss to one's soul. Many make compromises to retain their connections with those they love and some like myself find a comfortable place living a non-binary lifestyle, their inner voice no longer screaming under the stress and anxiety of dysphoria. This may fly in the face of the militant post-op transitioners who are moving on with their lives and want to try and live stealth, it may be regarded as some kind of an affront to them, but we are all not on the same plane as they, nor do we all think the same or are cast from the same mold. Your incredulity concerning those who wish to retain facets of their former life reminds me of the woman who just couldn't wrap her mind around the idea that another trans woman would want to be able to conceal her breast development in the workplace not being prepared to be out and risk losing her job and compromising her future. She badgered and harangued the woman for some time because she was a one dimensional person unable to accept any other view but her own.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on August 31, 2014, 10:13:40 AM
Those photos show someone who is no less me than the person I am now, is what I'm saying. I cringe at them a bit ...I also don't revel in it or seek out those memories.
Yup, just about sums it all up for me c:
I would be terribly hurt if she wouldn't display current pictures though...
Well, I mean, I don't know what to say. You can't address a binary issue from a non-binary perspective and not expect that you do not share a binary girl's affect to give you a drastically different perspective.
I said nothing about completely leaving behind one's life or connections. That is honestly not required for effective stealth, and to be clear, this is from the perspective of years post-transition when the initial turbulence is overcome and one starts having to actually look at the big picture of life and how to reach the truly intended destination. The examples I brought up deal with selective pruning and maintaining basic personal privacy rather than reckless inconsideration or abandonment.
Militant? ??? To prevent this from becoming yet another case of someone thinking I said something that if re-read I actually didn't, maybe we could use a reminder that on the gender spectrum dysphoria and its origins are inherent and different for everyone. Plenty of binary folks like myself, for instance, experience dysphoria in presenting gender ambiguity - forget masculinity, even a measure of ambiguity is bad. Don't let fear or doubt get to you: be amazing, be one step ahead of stupid people or stupid situations that would get in your way, figure out what your identity really is, and define yourself for yourself. The keys are in your hands.
There is no reason to shame or discourage those brave and confident women who go to great lengths to simply transition and remove the stigma of pre-transition from their lives, because it's almost as incomprehensible as basic transphobia. You may hold in scorn those who go on to separate themselves from the mtf label to the maximum extent possible, but I know such convictions simply exhibit most profoundly the inherent nature of gender identity.
Re-reading some relevant responses, I echo, have the photos taken down. This is getting a little philosophical, but I disagree with the idea that gender is fluid rather than fixed, that one can "have been a man" and now "be a woman." You're not defined by how others perceive you or how you present. If you're female you know it, you've always inherently been female, even when surrounded by chaos - never 'truly' being male. Some may feel their gender did in fact 'change', and if so, I can't to that since I feel nothing in common with it.
But think about how hard you had to fight to transition. Did those who keep those photos really cheer with approval? Or was there a lot of tension and figuring out to do instead? My point is, you are the sole creator of the ground you stand upon! The worst thing would be to be complacent - that is, to be dishonest to the truth of your real self rather than fear what someone else might perceive as dishonest. That fear will eat you alive if you let it.
As this is an mtf forum I would assume 'female' not non-binary or half-transitioning is the goal, yes? If not, perhaps it would be good to have MtX / FtX forums regarding transitioning purposes? But after re-reading the OP, it actually was a loaded question that assumed the photos do not trigger the respondent. Sigh. Again, I cannot post from that point of view because I do not share it, but suffice it to say that for some, like me, it's a very simple question: "Hey, let me ask you something... you transitioned for a reason, right? Well?"
Also, happy Sinday >:-)
Quote from: Rachelicious on August 31, 2014, 11:11:29 AM
Further, my purpose in this topic is to help binary folks (which as this is an mtf forum I would assume 'female' not non-binary or half-transitioning is the goal, yes?) better clarify their intentions, but re-reading the OP, it actually was a loaded question that assumed the photos do not trigger the respondent. Again, I cannot post from that point of view because I do not share it, but suffice it to say that for some, like me, it's a very simple question: "Hey, let me ask you something... you transitioned for a reason, right? Well?"
Also, happy Sinday >:-)
Thanks for the articulate clarification, to answer your question, yes! I started in headlong 20 years ago racing toward MtF and gender change but mid way had an epiphany and decided that I was in effect non-binary in every respect, though I didn't have a name for it back then. I went so far as to have my pre SRS consultation with Marcie Bowers and decided to put it on hold indefinitely. She still holds half my fee and claims that often times people change their minds. But tbh I began to count the cost in terms of the ongoing follow-up vaginal maintenance, buying an extensive female wardrobe and continually culling out items that are no longer fashionable and buying new items. Having to have dozens of pairs of shoes to go with various ensembles, purses, jewelry, and having to put on and take off make-up daily and compete in a cis dominated women's world, to say nothing of the costs in potential loss of family. I decided that I didn't have the desire to take it to those extremes. It is a personal decision, many are following in my train for various reasons of their own. I can post in all of the forums here at Susan's because I live on both sides of that fence, think with both sides of my brain and enjoy being who I am unabashedly.
My mom used to tell me how ugly I was, so she never had photos of me around the house before I transitioned, except one, which I still find funny to this day. It's a photo of me with my eyebrows clearly plucked and I'm very thin and quite feminine looking. It was one of my few 'male impersonator' photos I actually liked. Now though, there are several of me as me, Miranda Catherine. I never thought I could be happy or have the peace I do, despite the physical pain from my injuries to my knee, back and hip, and it shows in most of my pics.
My old photos never bothered me. With the exception of a 9 year period I always had long hair and looked feminine especially in full length photos. However, the photo's that do bother me are photo's taken of me later in life during the fine years up until 2009. I look absolutely awful during these years as the DHT was making it's last stand and had roughened my face up a bit. But other than those my old photos don't bother me. In fact there are some during my career days I rather cherish.
Ali :icon_flower: