Good morning guys and dolls (and Regina),
Serious question for ya:
Two transwomen, both in their 30s.
Transwoman A - has been on HRT for some time, hasn't had SRS yet
Transwoman B - has never had HRT, hasn't had SRS yet
Transwoman A - has been dressing as female (on a regular basis) for a few years (same time as HRT)
Transwoman B - has been dressing as female (on a regular basis) since high school
Transwoman A - completely non-passable
Transwoman B - not that passable, but more so than Transwoman A
Transwoman A - has affected and exaggerated behaviours and mannerisms, including amusing falsetto
Transwoman B - her behaviours and mannerisms come naturally to her
Transwoman A - comes off as male impersonating a female
Transwoman B - comes off as female through and through
Now could somebody please explain to me why Transwoman A is '->-bleeped-<-r', more valid, more of a woman than Transwoman B simply because she takes a pill every morning? ???
Side note - we don't know Transwoman B's motivations for not taking HRT. She could very well have a medical condition which prevents her from taking it at this time, or she simply may have chosen not to for reasons of her own.
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Hmmm....well, the only reason a TS person wouldn't take HRT is due to a diagnosed medical condition which prevents her/him from doing that. If she/he "doesn't want to take HRT" for whatever reasons other than medical, then I'm afraid that person doesn't fit the criteria for TS'im as specified by the DSM and
ICD-10.
Quote from: DSM IVTranssexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:
1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment;
2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years;
3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.
Quote extracted
from this link.Additionally the person in question may suffer from some kind of gender dysphoria to be considered gender dysphoric but not to the point of wanting to undergo HRT. Therefore in essence and by definition that person isn't TS.
tink :icon_chick:
Although, let me point out Tink, that the definition says usually, not always. So it doesn't exclude noho's.
Dennis
Ok Tink - what about it if Transwoman B does have a medical condition? Is she less 'trans' than Transwoman A?
Or - what if Transwoman B already passes just fine without it? And is able to live and as a woman?
Or let me ask the transwomen here this -
If you were completely passable, had gynecomastia and female fat patterns naturally and live as and accepted as a woman - would you have felt an immediate urge to take HRT? (this isn't that far fetched either. I've known men with both gynecomastia and hips and ass.)
Quote from: Tink on August 04, 2007, 11:33:23 AM
Hmmm....well, the only reason a TS person wouldn't take HRT is due to a diagnosed medical condition which prevents her/him from doing that.
Universal statements like this drive me CRAZY.
Why can't we acknowledge that everyone's circumstance is unique, and people just need to do whatever they need to do?
Why do so many people judge others on what they DO, rather than how they FEEL?
~Kate~
Are we talking about this in medical terms or just as a way to see who "is ->-bleeped-<-r than thou"? It may sound like a universal statement to some of you, but transsexualism is a very identiafable condition. It has symptoms and treatments. If we don't have the symptoms, we simply don't suffer from the condition. What are the symptoms? Let's check the DSM, let's talk to our therapist, rather than try to have our own agendas on things.
...and for the record, we are talking about HRT, not transition, not SRS...and what have you, corrrect?
tink :icon_chick:
OK - I will bite.
I am sick of these threads - who cares. They are just two people trying to find a place in the world. We treat them both as people and respect them both.
Alice
Quote from: Tink on August 04, 2007, 12:08:30 PM
Are we talking about this in medical terms or just as a way to see who "is ->-bleeped-<-r than thou"? It may sound like a universal statement to some of you, but transsexualism is a very identiafable condition. It has symptoms and treatments. If we don't have the symptoms, we simply don't suffer from the condition. What are the symptoms? Let's check the DSM, let's talk to our therapist, rather than try to have our own agendas on things.
...and for the record, we are talking about HRT, not transition, not SRS...and what have you, corrrect?
tink :icon_chick:
Ok, Tink. What if Transwoman B does have a medical condition needing to be resolved before she takes HRT?
Does that make Transwoman A more tran, or more valid than her, simply because Transwoman A is already on HRT?
Posted on: August 04, 2007, 01:15:46 PM
Quote from: Alice on August 04, 2007, 12:12:45 PM
OK - I will bite.
I am sick of these threads - who cares. They are just two people trying to find a place in the world. We treat them both as people and respect them both.
Alice
It's important to me because certain holier than thou ->-bleeped-<-s here are proclaiming to be more trans, more valid than a TS who cannot take HRT until medical issues are resolved when they know full well about the person's medical stuff.
Frankly, it pisses me off. >:(
Well, if a question is asked, I will answer. Sometimes, things in life require a bit of more "doing" rather than merely "talking". I usually go by what it is stated on the DSM and ICD-10. If some of you want to follow your own agenda, go right ahead but don't suggest that others have to agree with you or your POV.
tink :icon_chick:
Uh...Tink how does that answer any of my questions? ???
Posted on: August 04, 2007, 01:20:09 PM
What does 'doing' or 'talking' have to do with someone who has must wait until medical issues are resolved? ???
Or a woman who already passes?
Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 12:17:56 PM
Posted on: August 04, 2007, 01:15:46 PM
Quote from: Alice on August 04, 2007, 12:12:45 PM
OK - I will bite.
I am sick of these threads - who cares. They are just two people trying to find a place in the world. We treat them both as people and respect them both.
Alice
It's important to me because certain holier than thou ->-bleeped-<-s here are proclaiming to be more trans, more valid than a TS who cannot take HRT until medical issues are resolved when they know full well about the person's medical stuff.
Frankly, it pisses me off. >:(
Well you sould never listen to those ->-bleeped-<-s. If I did I would of left this site long ago. I am going at my own pace and trying to work out what is best for me (I still do not know what is best for me by the way). It is important for everyone to go at their own pace and deal with their own issues.
Alice
Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 12:20:09 PM
Uh...Tink how does that answer any of my questions? ???
Nero, a TS is a TS by definition or a diagnosis if you will. There are criteria to be followed. She has a medical condition? There are many things that we have to take into account. Is her medical condition "real" or just an excuse to have her ways? has this medical condition been diagnosed by a physician or by "herself"? has she been advised by her therapist/endo/physician to put off HRT because of this medical condition?
tink :icon_chick:
Posted on: August 04, 2007, 12:27:02 PM
Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 12:23:07 PM
Uh...Tink how does that answer any of my questions? ???
Posted on: August 04, 2007, 01:20:09 PM
What does 'doing' or 'talking' have to do with someone who has must wait until medical issues are resolved? ???
The thing is that I hear a lot of "high talk" and melodrama here, but hello? Are people DOING something about it?
:icon_chick:
QuoteA non-op transsexual is transsexual by definition, for she/he is under a hormone regimen. Nero was asking about people who for some unusual reason (other than medical) choose not to take HRT. In this case that person doesn't fit the criteria for TS'im. The "usually" is to emphasize that some TS can't take HRT for the reasons already stated.
A non-op isn't by definition required to have HRT to be considered TS.
Zythyra
The ICD-10 definition does not say that "usually" means "unless made impossible by a medical condition".
If someone wants to transition without HRT that sounds a lot harder than transitioning with HRT (passing etc). So I think they should be respected and not classified as "not really trans".
Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 11:58:00 AM
Or let me ask the transwomen here this -
If you were completely passable, had gynecomastia and female fat patterns naturally and live as and accepted as a woman - would you have felt an immediate urge to take HRT? (this isn't that far fetched either. I've known men with both gynecomastia and hips and ass.)
Fits me quite well. I held off on HRT for quite a few years. The main reason was I didn't want to destroy my family. Now they've grown to the point where my HRT is no longer a "deal breaker."
Quote from: taru on August 04, 2007, 12:40:24 PM
If someone wants to transition without HRT that sounds a lot harder than transitioning with HRT (passing etc). So I think they should be respected and not classified as "not really trans".
It really didn't make that much difference to the process of transition.
Quote from: Tink on August 04, 2007, 12:01:21 PM
Nero was asking about people who for some unusual reason (other than medical) choose not to take HRT. In this case that person doesn't fit the criteria for TS'im. The "usually" is to emphasize that some TS can't take HRT for the reasons already stated.
Curious how that didn't stop my therapist from putting the 302.85 diagnosis in my file.
Quote from: Tink on August 04, 2007, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 12:20:09 PM
Uh...Tink how does that answer any of my questions? ???
Nero, a TS is a TS by definition or a diagnosis if you will. There are criteria to be followed. She has a medical condition? There are many things that we have to take into account. Is her medical condition "real" or just an excuse to have her ways? has this medical condition been diagnosed by a physician or by "herself"? has she been advised by her therapist/endo/physician to put off HRT because of this medical condition?
tink :icon_chick:
Posted on: August 04, 2007, 12:27:02 PM
Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 12:23:07 PM
Uh...Tink how does that answer any of my questions? ???
Posted on: August 04, 2007, 01:20:09 PM
What does 'doing' or 'talking' have to do with someone who has must wait until medical issues are resolved? ???
The thing is that I hear a lot of "high talk" and melodrama here, but hello? Are people DOING something about it?
:icon_chick:
Ok yeah. She should just 'do' something about. She's only 'talking'. She has blood work done twice a week. Has been advised NOT to take anything not prescribed by her physician who strongly suspects she has congestive heart failure among other things he's already diagnosed her with. She's on 6 medications per day. Is under doctor's orders for bed rest, every blood test shows the levels have gotten worse, she's undergone so many damn test she's sick of it, every doctor's visit he prescribes more tests, more X-rays, etc. She's in a Dr. House nightmare. She hacks up a gallon of fluid and blood every day, if she stands for more than 90 seconds in the shower, she'll collapse.
She's just trying to survive each day, the most important thing to her right now is getting better.
But according to some here, she's less trans than others on HRT and she's not 'doing' anything about it. Yeah. Ok , she should just risk her health and maybe even her life for the holy grail of HRT.
Because she won't be a real Ts until she does , right? >:(
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on August 04, 2007, 01:08:02 PM
hey i dont have an agenda.
You may not but you'd be surprised to know how many people in general do. Anyhow, we are discussing HRT, correct? suddenly this topic seems to have gone off course and some seem to be talking about TS'im, others about transition, and some about SRS. ;)
tink :icon_chick:
Ok, so the moral of the story here is - that HRT is the be all and end all.
That Transwoman A is trans despite looking and acting like a real flamboyant drag queen, despite the fact that she never attempted to live as female until 2 years ago.
And Transwoman B isn't trans in either scenario:
1. She dresses as female, acts female, is accepted as female, is more passable than Transwoman A - but because she has decided not take HRT at this time for reasons of her own is far less trans and valid than Transwoman A, and in fact may not be trans at all.
2. Transwoman B dresses, acts, and is accepted as female, and is more passable than Transwoman A - alas she has medical issues needing to be resolved before HRT.
Everyone knows this means she is not trans. After all transpeople are immune to illnesses affecting non-trans people. Any TS who is ill is obviously lying to cover the fact they don't want any physical alterations made (such as HRT, SRS, etc.) She could be on her death bed, but she's faking the whole thing, because all TS have powers and immunities that non-TS don't possess.
If by the very rare chance, she is actually ill - she should just 'do' something about it, instead of 'talk' about it. She can whip up a magic potion, cure herself, and take HRT.
And godforbid she has a disease that is hard to diagnose, that takes 100s of test to rule all the more common illnesses out first. - well, then it's just so obvious she's lying. Doesn't matter that she's bed ridden, doesn't matter about the gallon of fluid and blood she coughs up every day. She's healthy as a horse and faking all this just so she has an excuse not to take HRT.
Nero, i'm sorry to hear that someone, anyone, has given you the "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" treatment.
frankly i'm also very surprised. with your facility with words and "not pulling any punches" attitude, whoever said it must have had a lot of nerve. anyway, who was it? lemme at 'em!
everybody knows that tranniness has to exist before administering HRT. to say otherwise is just silly. don't let mean-spirited people get you down. just ignore them.
Nero, these characters are fictional, correct? (trans woman A and trans woman B). I mean god forbid that I'm going to get upset about two people that don't exist or perhaps they may exist but their lives cannot be described in a post; therefore making a suggestion or giving opinions about these two people is just plain useless. So now this TS lady is bed ridden?....this is just getting too confusing as more "stuff" is coming through the surface.
tink :icon_chick:
I could really care less if someone is on HRT or having SRS unless of course they were trying to educate others on that topic without any real experience behind them.
Case in point. I went to listen to someone in the lifestyle speak this AM. He is FTM and has (in his words) just embraced his male identity. I have no idea if he is on hormones or not but he did mention a top surgery date. The only thing I was thinking about, outside the conversation of switching, was that he looked really cute and wondering if I could catch his eye. LOL
Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 11:21:24 AM
Now could somebody please explain to me why Transwoman A is '->-bleeped-<-r', more valid, more of a woman than Transwoman B simply because she takes a pill every morning? ???
Um, because you said so?
Quote from: Tink on August 04, 2007, 01:56:52 PM
Nero, these characters are fictional, correct? (trans woman A and trans woman B). I mean god forbid that I'm going to get upset about two people that don't exist or perhaps they may exist but their lives cannot be described in a post; therefore making a suggestion or giving opinions about these two people is just plain useless. So now this TS lady is bed ridden?....this is just getting too confusing as more "stuff" is coming through the surface.
tink :icon_chick:
I don't know. I was just trying to understand why Transwoman A can for all intents and purposes take HRT and be considered trans when she acts male or like a drag queen doing a bad impersonation of a woman, and why Transwoman B who is not on HRt but acts female is considered not trans.
At first.
But then the time worn 'Ts who do not want to make physical alterations to their body make the excuse they are ill.'
Came into play. And this statement is scattered elsewhere around this site. And it does really upset me.
Not you specifically Tink, but many have said this - I just wish people would understand how hurtful that statement may be to a very ill TS who would have HRT and SRS in a heartbeat if they were physically able.
I understand your point Nero, but I also think that people should take responsibility for their own actions, grow up a little and learn to accept certain things which should be universally understood. This is the reason why there are terms, classifications, diagnosis, therapists, HBSOC, symptoms, criteria. To be honest, I'm getting really tired about the agendas and this melodramatic "no one understands me and every one who doesn't is an elitist" BS, because that is just what it is, BS.
tink :icon_chick:
transwoman a is more ->-bleeped-<-
transwoman b is more woman.
ktnx
R :police:
Quote from: Tink on August 04, 2007, 02:32:31 PM
I understand your point Nero, but I also think that people should take responsibility for their own actions, grow up a little and learn to accept certain things which should be universally understood. This is the reason why there are terms, classifications, diagnosis, therapists, HBSOC, symptoms, criteria. To be honest, I'm getting really tired about the agendas and this "no one understands me and every one who doesn't is an elitist" BS, because that is just what it is, BS.
tink :icon_chick:
??? Again, I don't see how any of this has to do with the topic. What should be universally understood here?
This topic is about why HRT is used to measure who's ->-bleeped-<-r than another. How does 'no one understands me and everyone who doesn't is elitist' come into play? I'm bewildered by this post and the rest of yours in this thread.
And by your own definitions, your DSM quotes, Being on HRT is not a must for a diagnosis and it clearly states '
usually accompanied by the wish for HRT..' It doesn't even state that the
desire for HRT is a must.
It also doesn't state anything about TS who are unable to take HRT due to illness.
And just on the rare chance - that anyone would attempt to turn this topic into a debate on me and my actions, and my life, I'll also have you all know. That I have already been diagnosed as an ftm transsexual, and as Primary (because I did ask her out of curiousity which group I fell into, assuming it was Secondary because of my bisexuality which she said didn't matter anymore).
So, I damn sure don't need anybody else's approval on my being trans or not. I would just like to know why HRT is the holy grail. Period.
hrt aside, tink makes a good point, If you dont undesstand someones viewpoint, your elitest. if your young, pretty. and can blend with society, your stigmatised in the transcommunity as 'elitist' as these people are so damn jelous. simple, they want to be in your shoes, and express this by namecalling.
Transition is no easier or harder for anyone. and nobody is better off or worse. its all s**t...
some can just bring the pain to an end. some cant.
R :police:
Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 02:55:49 PM
So, I damn sure don't need anybody else's approval on my being trans or not.
and this is what everyone should do instead of asking for everyone's opinion because when that happens, issues arise, comments are said, viewpoints are expressed and an ugly can of worms opens... (BTW, I thought we were talking about the two TS ladies, not YOU, so I ask you the same thing, "again?")
Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 02:55:49 PM
I would just like to know why HRT is the holy grail. Period.
People will give THEIR opinion everytime you ask such type of questions. Sometimes, they will say what you don't want to hear, but still it is what they believe. So, I think that in terms of these issues, it is, again, up to each and everyone of us to find the right answers. I believe that every one of us knows what we want and what we don't want, but expecting that others agree with our POV is sometimes a waste of time, Nero. I say this because I have also experienced it in the past. I've encountered more peace of mind deciding things for myself rather than comparing myself with other people's experiences and expecting some similarity between our needs or reasons. My observation is that when agreement is sought in profound feelings such as GID, the opinions of others are totally irrelevant. Do you know where I am going with this? I hope so.
tink :icon_chick:
Locked until such time as we can get back on original topic. 'Why is taking HRT the measure of tranniness?'
Posted on: August 04, 2007, 04:44:25 PM
Unlocked. Please stick to the title topic of the two hypothetical transwomen.
Posted on: August 04, 2007, 08:10:27 PM
Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 11:21:24 AM
Good morning guys and dolls (and Regina),
Serious question for ya:
Two transwomen, both in their 30s.
Transwoman A - has been on HRT for some time, hasn't had SRS yet
Transwoman B - has never had HRT, hasn't had SRS yet
Transwoman A - has been dressing as female (on a regular basis) for a few years (same time as HRT)
Transwoman B - has been dressing as female (on a regular basis) since high school
Transwoman A - completely non-passable
Transwoman B - not that passable, but more so than Transwoman A
Transwoman A - has affected and exaggerated behaviours and mannerisms, including amusing falsetto
Transwoman B - her behaviours and mannerisms come naturally to her
Transwoman A - comes off as male impersonating a female
Transwoman B - comes off as female through and through
Now could somebody please explain to me why Transwoman A is '->-bleeped-<-r', more valid, more of a woman than Transwoman B simply because she takes a pill every morning? ???
Side note - we don't know Transwoman B's motivations for not taking HRT. She could very well have a medical condition which prevents her from taking it at this time, or she simply may have chosen not to for reasons of her own.
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Bringing you the best in inspired rants and thought provoking topics every hour on the hour with no commercial breaks.
Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 07:10:54 PMNow could somebody please explain to me why Transwoman A is '->-bleeped-<-r', more valid, more of a woman than Transwoman B simply because she takes a pill every morning?
Nero. it seems that you tend to ask these questions that have underlying assumptions which I can't understand. I guess I don't get who is making the "->-bleeped-<-r" judgment, who is deciding this. I wonder because I don't think anyone has the right to judge another, especially transpeople who have experienced the same kind of negative judgments from others and know how hurtful and damaging they can be.
I read and wonder where these judgments come from and why so many people seem to give them the weight they don't deserve.
I'm confused, I guess.
hugs & smiles (quizzical ones)
Emelye
Just delete this whole topic Nero - we do not need this devisive debate about who is better then who. We have had enough of these debates lately.
Alice
Well, from my perception this would be because (for me on the girl side of the fence) T = Bad, E = Good; I personally do not understand not wanting HRT; Keyword wanting. Ignorance is bliss is the best I can figure to be blunt. But this does not have a thing to do with "transness" in my view. Rather, T, to me, is very unpleasant. If a girl LIKES T flowing in her veins... EH? BUT, I seem to be an odd one (or perhaps delusional depending on whom you would ask) in that I can most definitely feel the T in my system, and the E for that matter. Short form, I don't like T. An HRT is a way to get T out and E in so that makes it good right? I am not, however one to base others off of my experiences as I have long ago figured out that, well, I am different. But, being a girl and liking T in your veins still baffles me but *shrug* If it works for them more power to them I say!
But, this said #B strikes me more of a grownup than #A, but, that was the point wasn't it?
P.s. #A, #B ... ya get it ya get it? ;)
Transwoman A seems to be doing what any transsexual woman would do if in fact she feels that her inner identity doesnt fit her vessel (body). Acting like a female and passing as one isnt what transsexuality is about. The entire aspect of transsexuality lies in the mismatch between body and inner identity. Fixing that mismatch through hormones and surgical procedures is what you graciously call tranniness.
Moreover, transwoman B appears to be more comfortable with gender roles and gender expression of her preferred gender but this is not sufficient to fill the gap between body and inner identity mismatch.
Quote from: Fer on August 05, 2007, 02:43:03 AM
Transwoman A seems to be doing what any transsexual woman would do if in fact she feels that her inner identity doesnt fit her vessel (body). Acting like a female and passing as one isnt what transsexuality is about. The entire aspect of transsexuality lies in the mismatch between body and inner identity. Fixing that mismatch through hormones and surgical procedures is what you graciously call tranniness.
Moreover, transwoman B appears to be more comfortable with gender roles and gender expression of her preferred gender but this is not sufficient to fill the gap between body and inner identity mismatch.
to the second power! get it?
Quote from: Fer on August 05, 2007, 02:43:03 AM
Transwoman A seems to be doing what any transsexual woman would do if in fact she feels that her inner identity doesnt fit her vessel (body). Acting like a female and passing as one isnt what transsexuality is about. The entire aspect of transsexuality lies in the mismatch between body and inner identity. Fixing that mismatch through hormones and surgical procedures is what you graciously call tranniness.
Moreover, transwoman B appears to be more comfortable with gender roles and gender expression of her preferred gender but this is not sufficient to fill the gap between body and inner identity mismatch.
ive never heard something more offensive.
just because one person is slightly luckyer to not require surgery or hrt to pass as herself, does not mean she didnt feel dysphoric before transition... I technically dont require any surgery, omfg im not as good as you... why does requireing surgery make one trans? and to be honest, the hormones in someones bloody are minimal effect in our daily lives. most people never think about them. hrt only helps one pass, it has minimal bearing on you as a person in the grand scheme of things.
and no, acting and passing IS what transexuality is about, if someone behaves like a female from birth, identifys as female, yet is in a male body, are they not trans?
R :police: