There are certainly a variety of intersex conditions that can result in a brain/body mismatch, but in the absence of any of these documented conditions (Klinefelters, PAIS, anything resulting in ambiguous genitalia, etc.) when an individual experiences dysphoria, do you believe that having gender dysphoria is a type of intersex condition in itself?
Is it a kind of birth defect?
I personally have always thought of us being in the same class as intetsexed.
Just intersexed have said other wise and in a nasty way.
I feel I was born with a birth defect yes.
I would call us mentally intersexed at the very least.
I do. Biology and genetics is so complex.
I strongly suspect that being trans is indicative of having some sort of unclassified intersex condition that mainly affects brain development. The studies that suggest that MTFs and FTMs often have brain structures that either match their target gender, or else are intermediate between male and female, seem to me to be evidence of some sort of intersex development. There are several types of transgender people, so there are probably several intersex conditions involved. I also think that it is interesting that conditions like gynecomastia and infertility seem to be more common among trans people (at least anecdotally). That also suggests an intersex condition, even though many of us do not match the criteria for any currently diagnosed condition.
I was born with a birth condition.
Not sure I would call it a defect.
I like being transgender, and like the fact that it's given me perspectives that cisgender people can't have. I know few people see it this way, but it's my point of view.
I actually think trans folks are REALLY good for human culture. We force people to take a look at their gender and what it means and the limits they put on themselves because of it.
So I don't think I'm defective. I actually think I'm beneficial.
In most cases, probably.
I consider what I have to be a birth defect. It has impacted my quality of life too badly for me to consider it a neutral condition.
Many forget the brain is the largest sex organ we have so if the brain is programmed in one way but body develops another.
We all are humans and humans are all unique in there own ways.
We are humans.
Quote from: Liam Erik on September 06, 2014, 06:21:16 PM
I think it is absolutely an intersex condition. I don't really understand why that's not said more. I think people think of brains in an abstract way and forget that they are organs.
^This
Well I don't know but I wouldn't be surprised if I get my organs checked out and they say that I have male and female reproductive organs.
There is scientific evidence that there can be a condition that could be described as intersexed in the brain. Some brain areas that are linked to body map and sexual identity are affected in the womb (mainly the hypothalamus region). It is not the case in all transpeople, AFAIK, so there are certainly also other possibilities to become trans*, like childhood experiences or other things later on in life, but at least for transsexuality there seems to be a certain number of people where this is the case. It has to do with hormonal influences on the brain in that phase of development. Estrogens, Progesterone and Testosterone have to be in the right balance, otherwise a mismatch or partial mismatch can happen at this stage of fetal development.
So funnily after all these years it seems that "good old Harry Benjamin" was right - he also described in his famous book transsexuality as something that is most likely caused by a form of intersexuality in the brain :)
Based on what I've read, research is showing that at least in theory, being transgender could be the result of hormone exposure before birth. Many (not all) trans people are aware of their gender by sometime around age 5. There's even plenty of 2D 4D finger digit ratio studies that help to back that up. I do think this accounts for a huge majority of trans people, which would be a definite yes. Both of these are certainly the case for me, and many others on this board.
However ...
There are some trans people who don't display the digit ratio distinctions, or who aren't aware until later in life that they're transgender or have transgender thoughts and tendencies. So I hesitate to make a blanket statement that, "Yes, being transgender is a form of intersex", because for some people this may not be why they are transgender.
As others have pointed out (...and I'm admittedly guilty of forgetting this myself a lot) the word transgender is technically an umbrella term classifying several different types of gender non conforming people, not just transsexuals like myself. So there could be any number of causes ranging from physical, to psychological, to environmental, exposure to drugs, and who knows what else. And all of that, as well as the above theoretical hormonal exposure before birth possibly causing changes to the brain mean that there's a huge range of reasons for why and just as many varied outcomes, which is why we use the umbrella term to try to simplify things.
In the end why isn't as important as how we live our lives, though.
Echoing others, I've been adamant since the beginning that "true" transsexualism is, at its core, an intersex condition. For years my fear of being perceived incorrectly made me most apprehensive of LGBT involvements aside from a few friends in whom I had confidence. I'm fine now simply considering myself a laid-back ally.
Quote from: Rachelicious on September 08, 2014, 08:53:13 PM
Echoing others, I've been adamant since the beginning that "true" transsexualism is, at its core, an intersex condition. For years my fear of being perceived incorrectly made me most apprehensive of LGBT involvements aside from a few friends in whom I had confidence. I'm fine now simply considering myself a laid-back ally.
What is "true" transsexualism?
Based on everything I know, this is an intersexed condition. I think there are at least two causes and that there are two types of MTFs and at least one cause and one type of FTM.
Jen
PS, not sure about what "true" transexualism is.
To be honest, whenever I see this topic come up, I tend to think of it as people trying to find justification for who they are. I don't really buy into it, although I did a bit at the beginning. But since, I've learned that who really cares, you are who you are and you don't need justification or really much of an explanation for it. Its not like most people would actually understand it anyway. And if you did know exactly what caused it, would it change what you are doing? Are any of you hoping for a "cure?"
Quote from: Jaime R D on September 08, 2014, 09:22:22 PM
To be honest, whenever I see this topic come up, I tend to think of it as people trying to find justification for who they are. I don't really buy into it, although I did a bit at the beginning. But since, I've learned that who really cares, you are who you are and you don't need justification or really much of an explanation for it. Its not like most people would actually understand it anyway. And if you did know exactly what caused it, would it change what you are doing? Are any of you hoping for a "cure?"
I threw this out there to see how other transpeople viewed themselves. There is no scientific consensus as to how this occurs, and because of this, far too many people are fast to dismiss us as freaks, nut cases and perverts (and I'm sick of it). In my thinking, what if one day, that it has been proven beyond a doubt that transsexualism is an intersex condition of the brain and is classified as a type of birth defect that often requires medical intervention. The haters would no longer have a pot to piss in, insurance would be required to cover treatments, society would be more accepting and sympathetic, and it would always be illegal to discriminate against us. That, IMHO, would beat the crap out of what we have going for us currently. It would also be nice for society to finally view transphobes the same way as we do racists.
Why it is that I am transgender is moot. At the end of the day, I don't care if it was DES, XXY, THC, the hormones in the meat or the devil. My brain needs estrogen and I will continue to take it no matter what. Plus I totally love rocking a maxi skirt.
And I believe we have a "cure". It's called transition. I just wish the rest of the world could wrap their heads around that one.
Quote from: Jill F on September 05, 2014, 08:32:25 PM
There are certainly a variety of intersex conditions that can result in a brain/body mismatch, but in the absence of any of these documented conditions (Klinefelters, PAIS, anything resulting in ambiguous genitalia, etc.) when an individual experiences dysphoria, do you believe that having gender dysphoria is a type of intersex condition in itself?
Is it a kind of birth defect?
the question perhaps fudges the distinction between transgender and transsexual. If one defines the former is a broad term which encompasses all sorts of gender nonconformity, and the latter as the specific biological condition of having a "brain sex" which is misaligned with the physical characteristics of one's body (whether or not the resulting dysphoria is manageable or traumatic or something in between) then I would agree wholeheartedly that the latter is a subset of the category "intersex conditions" as well as being subset of the umbrella category transgender.
However I would not agree that all the things that we classified as transgender could be considered as a physical intersex condition.
Quote from: Tammy Hope on September 08, 2014, 11:41:04 PM
the question perhaps fudges the distinction between transgender and transsexual. If one defines the former is a broad term which encompasses all sorts of gender nonconformity, and the latter as the specific biological condition of having a "brain sex" which is misaligned with the physical characteristics of one's body (whether or not the resulting dysphoria is manageable or traumatic or something in between) then I would agree wholeheartedly that the latter is a subset of the category "intersex conditions" as well as being subset of the umbrella category transgender.
However I would not agree that all the things that we classified as transgender could be considered as a physical intersex condition.
Sorry, I realize now that I really should have used " having gender dysphoria" in place of the broader umbrella term "being transgender" in the topic heading.
I think the term "true" transsexualism is of course a bit of an unhappy description. But I think that there are different types of conditions that presently are labelled transsexualism and the umbrella-term transgender did not the best service to make this more clear but rather it seem that transgender and transsexual are now often just mixed up, thus including a lot more into the term transsexual than there was before.
The distinction in terms of a neurobiological cause is, that some people do seem to have that neurobiological difference and if it affects their brain body image (as described in the scientific articles by Ramachandran (e.g. http://philpapers.org/rec/RAMOOP) ) an in these cases they have a strong body dysmorphia, a strong body dysphoria and are thus in some cases describes as "true transsexuals" because they are truely trans-sexed (they have a physical body condition related to their physical sex). This seems to go along with phantom body perceptions.
I personally think that there are other conditions than that - maybe in some perople the brain ich still changed but it mainly affected their gender identity, so they do seem physical changes of the body rather as a secondary remedy - they feel like they are of a certain gender but the body does not fit and to live in their felt gender they change the body. Then there are the people who really have a more later onset condition, a mismatch between the own actions and feeling and personality and the gender they live in, they seek a change in gender (social role) mostly, but have reservations about medical treatments and surgeries as they do not feel their body is wrong.
Sadly this sometimes leads to fights as some people stand up and openly claim it is not good to have surgeries and "mutilate healthy bodies" as in our times it is accepted to live in the desired gender without having surgeries - and others stand up and say that they want to change their bodies to match how they feel it should be (brain body map) and don't really care about the social role that much and then both try to project their own experiences on the others because they are all put under the laben "transsexual".
Quote from: Jaime R D on September 08, 2014, 09:22:22 PM
I've learned that who really cares, you are who you are and you don't need justification or really much of an explanation for it. .... Are any of you hoping for a "cure?"
Well yes and no - I think to have an explanation would make it a lot easier to find a proper cure - to improve the medical care we can be given as then it is finally clear to the medical professions that it is not a psychological condition that has to somehow under the rule of an exception actually be treated with physical changes (usually phsychological conditions are ONLY treated psychologically or with medication). But then it becomes an intersex condition, a DSD and thus the acceptance within the medical community and hopefully also within the society would be changed slowly to really accept that we ARE of the gender/sex that we say we are and thus are just regular men or women in need of the best possible medical treatment to specifically cure us from the damages we have. On health insurance, without psychological gatekeeping, without the stories about "men becoming women" or "men wanting to be women".
Fo us ourselves - of course it is possible to eventually say "I dont care, I know who I am and thats ok", but the path to get there is harder if the cause is totally unknown - I personally dont tell anyone about my condition if I can avoid it because I dont want to be seen as a "guy who is now a woman". If it is clear that medically I am a woman but have a body that suffered a virilization, I would have less of an issue to tell that to others - because then it is a correct description, the other is not.
Given the vast breadth of experiences and motivations, I'm hesitant to describe being transgender as intersex. If the focus is narrowed to transsexual people then I'm still incredibly hesitant since, after reviewing relevant studies that I can find, it's my personal belief that the aetiology of gender incongruence hasn't been ascertained. I appreciate that a lot of trans people believe that neuroanatomical evidence has demonstrated a biological origin but I've personally found such work deeply flawed or insufficient to justify generalised claims. Flowing from that, I don't feel the extant evidence I've seen justifies me using the intersex label.
Most importantly for me, I'm also hesitant to accept applying the term at present because I don't want to risk harming the intersex community by appropriating or erasing their unique experiences and challenges. While I understand that appeals to nature are powerful, if illogical, and that it could be wonderful to appease cisnormative society by ascribing gender identity differences to a cause definitively outside of anybody's conscious control, I worry that some dyadic trans people might use intersex people as a political tool. Specifically, I'm concerned that intersex experiences and existence are used to appeal to society's overarching biological essentialism and that by doing so the dyadic trans community can sometimes use and speak over the intersex community in an objectionable manner.
For me, it has potential to be somewhat akin to the way in which the unique suffering of trans women of colour is removed from context and generalised to the whole trans community by some activists. Alternatively, I'd suggest it could be seen as similar to the way in which some organisations use the unique discrimination faced by trans people as a persuasive tool by generalising it to 'LGBT' people in campaigning that overwhelmingly serves the G.
Of course, I understand that my worries could be absurd or excessively cautious. Equally, I'm not saying that dyadic trans people and intersex, cis or trans, people are wildly divergent either since I believe there's significant overlap. The rights of both groups seem to focus on gaining the right to bodily integrity, personal autonomy, medical treatment with informed consent, and liberation from the imposition of deeply cruel models of gender or sex.
As for whether I see being transgender as a birth defect, a large part of me wants to agree that I am defective since being trans has caused so much pain from childhood onwards. However, another part believes that the harm has largely, but not entirely, come from external sources that imposed gender and sex assignment as destiny rather than my own identity so it is society that is defective for placing those baseless concepts above creating maximum happiness, not me.
Similarly, I think trans people are vital or precious rather than defective since I believe persistent outliers undermine systems that can't explain them, trans people challenge prevailing thought by requiring the creation of a new paradigm that embraces us. Flowing from that, I hope trans people that choose to engage in activism or to live openly will be vital in helping to liberate humanity from oppressive gender and sex constructs because I'd argue our very existence proves that many dominant assumptions and expectations are fundamentally wrong. That's probably a bit too optimistic, isn't it? Hehe!
Quote from: kelly_aus on September 08, 2014, 09:11:23 PM
What is "true" transsexualism?
Simply distinguishing the term from transgender. Surely you didn't think the quote marks were just decoration? ::)
Quote from: anjaq on September 09, 2014, 05:06:17 AM
I think the term "true" transsexualism is of course a bit of an unhappy description. But I think that there are different types of conditions that presently are labelled transsexualism and the umbrella-term transgender did not the best service to make this more clear but rather it seem that transgender and transsexual are now often just mixed up, thus including a lot more into the term transsexual than there was before.
^ This. I transitioned on the early cusp of LGBT becoming a known acronym, and early in transition I felt the emergence of the label transgender as an uncomfortably impinging umbrella term under which, as an intersex condition, I fit only to the extent of physiological circumstance, not by identity. Hence my use of the term "true" to denote the polarism of people whose identity fits strictly into the binary rather than non-binary.
I'm convinced that in the future transsexualism will actually be recognized as an intersex condition, and that this will destigmatize / ease transition and improve the quality of living for all transgender people as the validity and perhaps etiology of gender identity gains more widespread acceptance.
WGAF? Because people with very polar genders + gender dysphoria are the most obvious and easy-to-grasp example of gender identity's innateness. Be mindful, surely on the heels of this would come greater acceptance for non-binary identities.
Argue away. My views have not changed in a decade and are unlikely to change from some cynical forum post that doesn't even cite research.
A gay friend once told me, "do you think I want to be this way?" He enjoys it because he has embraced the lifestyle but he said that he thinks it's weird that anyone would think that people want to live a lifestyle where they are constantly ridiculed, harassed or even have violent crimes committed against them.
A "true transsrxual", would be like Kim Petris, or Jazz. These are the ones who seek out surgery as young and fast as possible. They would be ether level 5 or 6 on the Benjamin scale.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_scale (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_scale)
Quote from: Emily King on September 09, 2014, 08:28:02 AM
A "true transsrxual", would be like Kim Petris, or Jazz. These are the ones who seek out surgery as young and fast as possible. They would be ether level 5 or 6 on the Benjamin scale.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_scale (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_scale)
I wouldn't limit it to just them. There are many people who for whatever reason had to keep themselves non-transitioned until later in life and unfortunately have to delay it.
I think it's dangerous to assign a label "true" because what is "true" anyway? Jowelle DeSouza transitioned at 19 and she simply refuses to talk about her past, I mean to the point where it simply does not exist. And she's not stealth or anything, she is very much out.
In many cases young transition is enabled by parenting and society. Without those someone will be pretty much "straightened out" until their life situation accommodates transition. This is where I am, by the way.
Quote from: ImagineKate on September 09, 2014, 08:58:09 AM
I wouldn't limit it to just them. There are many people who for whatever reason had to keep themselves non-transitioned until later in life and unfortunately have to delay it.
* raises hand* I'm 33. I've been aware that I felt like I'm living the wrong life since I was 5. I've even been aware that I actually think differently from men and often think and agree more often with women for about as long a time. However, I only started dealing with being transgender about a year ago. Why?
1. Because I grew up in a family with a long history going back hundreds of years of being very conservative, religious, and military. I learned young not to talk about it and to fall in formation.
2. Because I had
absolutely no idea that there was anything I could realistically do about it until about 3 years ago, and like most people my age until recently, I thought transgender people where like what I saw in movies growing up which isn't the case. When I realized that I'm not crazy and that there are things I can actually do, I was terrified to actually do anything because of:
3. I am married, have a kid, am not working while I go to college so that I can take care of my daughter when I'm not in class, and because of #1.
Quote from: ImagineKate on September 09, 2014, 08:58:09 AM
I think it's dangerous to assign a label "true" because what is "true" anyway? Jowelle DeSouza transitioned at 19 and she simply refuses to talk about her past, I mean to the point where it simply does not exist. And she's not stealth or anything, she is very much out.
Yeah ... I'm not sure I get the term true. I don't think the original poster is trying to be mean or anything. I think they're trying to be specific about a particular type of transgender person (which is important to clarify because there
are different types of transgender people since the term is an umbrella term).
Quote from: ImagineKate on September 09, 2014, 08:58:09 AM
In many cases young transition is enabled by parenting and society. Without those someone will be pretty much "straightened out" until their life situation accommodates transition. This is where I am, by the way.
Yeah this here is how I see things. It seems to me that a lot of people who are in their teens and early 20s, and in some cases even younger, are far more aware of their options than I was at that age, so the younger generations are transitioning earlier than I am. Part of that's because parents are more knowledgeable on the subject too, I think, and ones who aren't are able to find information a lot easier than my parents and myself would have been able to do even in the 1990s. And while teenagers and kids are still cruel, I get the feeling there's more of them that are understanding about LGBT issues as time goes on, making things easier for younger people to transition.
When I was in high school in the late 90s I imagine it just wouldn't have been possible to transition at all in high school. And of course, that's still relying on parents being supportive, which they aren't always ... which will almost certainly cause some to have to wait until they are on their own, and financially capable of transitioning themselves without losing their job ... which means they're going to have to wait.
Quote from: Jaime R D on September 08, 2014, 09:22:22 PM
To be honest, whenever I see this topic come up, I tend to think of it as people trying to find justification for who they are. I don't really buy into it, although I did a bit at the beginning. But since, I've learned that who really cares, you are who you are and you don't need justification or really much of an explanation for it. Its not like most people would actually understand it anyway. And if you did know exactly what caused it, would it change what you are doing? Are any of you hoping for a "cure?"
The other explanation about how it would help society understand is where I would like to see this go.
Remember, there are actual diseases that were thought of to be brought about by lifestyle choices. AIDS/HIV for example, was thought of as a disease for gay men, so if you were gay you didn't have to worry about it. However, when famous people like Magic Johnson were infected, society started to realize that maybe this isn't something we should shun and run away from, that we need to deal with it.
Transgender is something I would like society to understand better. I believe that finding out its root cause is something that would help society understand better. It's not really my fault I am this way. Where I am going is my choice, but what is driving me is not.
This subject is poorly defined because:
1. What is "intersex"?
2. What is "transgender"?
The only studies that have been collected thus far are that of transsexuals and they do not represent the entirety of the transgender spectrum. Similarly, intersex is a condition that is traditionally defined as in having a chromosomal defect which results in sexual development that falls outside the expected norm. That someone can be born intersex
and be transgender proves that they are not necessarily at all related as in both being intersex for the same reason someone can be born with various kinds of defects and these defects must not be related to though may appear similar.
I know some want to claim that transgender is intersex but I think that is a naive and narrow way of understanding transgender and the transgender experience.
Quote from: Lonicera on September 09, 2014, 06:16:10 AM
Given the vast breadth of experiences and motivations, I'm hesitant to describe being transgender as intersex. If the focus is narrowed to transsexual people then I'm still incredibly hesitant since, after reviewing relevant studies that I can find, it's my personal belief that the aetiology of gender incongruence hasn't been ascertained. I appreciate that a lot of trans people believe that neuroanatomical evidence has demonstrated a biological origin but I've personally found such work deeply flawed or insufficient to justify generalised claims. Flowing from that, I don't feel the extant evidence I've seen justifies me using the intersex label.
Most importantly for me, I'm also hesitant to accept applying the term at present because I don't want to risk harming the intersex community by appropriating or erasing their unique experiences and challenges. While I understand that appeals to nature are powerful, if illogical, and that it could be wonderful to appease cisnormative society by ascribing gender identity differences to a cause definitively outside of anybody's conscious control, I worry that some dyadic trans people might use intersex people as a political tool. Specifically, I'm concerned that intersex experiences and existence are used to appeal to society's overarching biological essentialism and that by doing so the dyadic trans community can sometimes use and speak over the intersex community in an objectionable manner.
For me, it has potential to be somewhat akin to the way in which the unique suffering of trans women of colour is removed from context and generalised to the whole trans community by some activists. Alternatively, I'd suggest it could be seen as similar to the way in which some organisations use the unique discrimination faced by trans people as a persuasive tool by generalising it to 'LGBT' people in campaigning that overwhelmingly serves the G.
Of course, I understand that my worries could be absurd or excessively cautious. Equally, I'm not saying that dyadic trans people and intersex, cis or trans, people are wildly divergent either since I believe there's significant overlap. The rights of both groups seem to focus on gaining the right to bodily integrity, personal autonomy, medical treatment with informed consent, and liberation from the imposition of deeply cruel models of gender or sex.
As for whether I see being transgender as a birth defect, a large part of me wants to agree that I am defective since being trans has caused so much pain from childhood onwards. However, another part believes that the harm has largely, but not entirely, come from external sources that imposed gender and sex assignment as destiny rather than my own identity so it is society that is defective for placing those baseless concepts above creating maximum happiness, not me.
Similarly, I think trans people are vital or precious rather than defective since I believe persistent outliers undermine systems that can't explain them, trans people challenge prevailing thought by requiring the creation of a new paradigm that embraces us. Flowing from that, I hope trans people that choose to engage in activism or to live openly will be vital in helping to liberate humanity from oppressive gender and sex constructs because I'd argue our very existence proves that many dominant assumptions and expectations are fundamentally wrong. That's probably a bit too optimistic, isn't it? Hehe!
Also this post so much. I think a lot of people who make biological appeals completely forget the power dynamics at play when we try to figure which version of the truth is THE TRUTH. Of course I feel I wish I could have been born with the right chromosomal makeup but also being borth with an
actual birth defect, I do not see my trangender nature a birth defect in the same way my birth defect is actually a defect. There's nothing inherently defective about me, it just doesn't fit who I think I deep down should be, though of course it is very unfortunate I am not. By body is however, not defect in any way. It works and functions just fine.
Transsexual? Yes. Transsexual people have what is essentially an intersex experience. Consider those who want to make absolutely no references now or in the future to any gender-incongruent identity, who know very early on who they are, etc. There's no mystery with such people. They did not go from one gender to another, they always were their true gender innately, even if hiding behind pre-transition facades that grew so large as to hear it as barely a whisper.
Transgender? Not necessarily. People used to know "transsexual" and what it meant - the savvy even differentiated the word from ->-bleeped-<-, drag queen, etc. But these days the word "transgender" is what flies around the media, and it makes things difficult, because often the media lumps a transsexual under the transgender umbrella, and in other cases, the meaning often becomes vague to laypeople. It's a word that doesn't connote a fixed meaning or experience, a specific origin or destination, which is why TS people like to be clear about their identity one way or the other.
Quote from: Rachelicious on September 10, 2014, 06:02:39 AM
Transsexual? Yes. Transsexual people have what is essentially an intersex experience. Consider those who want to make absolutely no references now or in the future to any gender-incongruent identity, who know very early on who they are, etc. There's no mystery with such people. They did not go from one gender to another, they always were their true gender innately, even if hiding behind pre-transition facades that grew so large as to hear it as barely a whisper.
Transgender? Not necessarily. People used to know "transsexual" and what it meant - the savvy even differentiated the word from ->-bleeped-<-, drag queen, etc. But these days the word "transgender" is what flies around the media, and it makes things difficult, because often the media lumps a transsexual under the transgender umbrella, and in other cases, the meaning often becomes vague to laypeople. It's a word that doesn't connote a fixed meaning or experience, a specific origin or destination, which is why TS people like to be clear about their identity one way or the other.
The medical and clinical definition of TS is no longer as obvious as it used to be since nowadays even people who do not fit the obvious TS experience is given TS as a diagnosis. It questions what TS actually is and what it means.
I think it's too complex to put people into a particular box. This is why there is a spectrum. What I am realizing is that we are extremely diverse. I never really paid attention to gender fluid and androgynous people. I always figured they were gay or transsexual. Boy was I wrong lol.
I don't think that "intersex" is going to be confined to people who have unusual chromosomes or ambiguous genitals.There is a huge mental component and much of it is nature, not nurture.
Transgender being an umbrella term - I do think it's a bit broad. I also think that LGBT is very broad, but I understand that for civil rights and unity it helps. But I will be honest, I'm not gay, no desire to be. It doesn't really bother me when other people are but it's not me at all. Maybe when HRT does its magic I might feel differently.
Quote from: ImagineKate on September 10, 2014, 07:11:32 AM
I think it's too complex to put people into a particular box. This is why there is a spectrum. What I am realizing is that we are extremely diverse. I never really paid attention to gender fluid and androgynous people. I always figured they were gay or transsexual. Boy was I wrong lol.
I don't think that "intersex" is going to be confined to people who have unusual chromosomes or ambiguous genitals.There is a huge mental component and much of it is nature, not nurture.
The problem is when someone experiences themselves as transgender and is
also born as intersex. Then what is it? Because we cannot quantify social aspects it tends to get ignored over the biological cause discourse which I think is extremely flawed and fallacious. Which is to say that if there is a social cause it does not mean "it's in your head", it's more complex than that, but as with everything human body it's an interplay. You may be genetically predisposed but it doesn't mean you'll turn out transgender and similarly, someone who is not genetically predisposed could also turn out transgender. It is extremely simplistic to only look at biology for cues though it may of course feel "safe" due to currently being seen as more legitimate.
I personally think it should be considered a type of intersex condition. I mean somehow someway during brain development in the womb, wires got crossed someway and shorted out the male thinking in me and boosted the female thinking. I mean yeah sure, depression and anxiety are both psychological conditions but sometimes it takes an MD to ease it or cure it. Plus depression and anxiety can effect your health and GID can cause depression and anxiety.
I mean we might not have been born with ambiguous genitals, everything maybe normal for our birth gender except the brain. Like a few have said the brain is an organ and probably the most important one. As for the animal kingdom, I don't know of any other animal that has sex as a means of enjoyment. Most of the time it can be a violent affair but instinct driven only. Humans think about it and it is more than just instinctual for us. So our brains seem to be wired directly to our gender and sexuality. Most animals only mate because it is instinctually driven and the same drive is somewhat in us with pheromones and so on but we do it mostly for total enjoyment. I will almost bet that no other species goes around thinking about sex as much as we do or are aware of the differences in gender that we humans are. When female dogs come in heat then the males will try to spread there genetic material, but when the female isn't in heat, dogs are just dogs with no need to have sex without the female being in heat. Yeah I know about the humping and so on but that is more of dominance behavior instead of an actual sexual behavior.
Quote from: Jess42 on September 10, 2014, 08:34:50 AM
Most animals only mate because it is instinctually driven and the same drive is somewhat in us with pheromones and so on but we do it mostly for total enjoyment. I will almost bet that no other species goes around thinking about sex as much as we do or are aware of the differences in gender that we humans are.
Actually, a lot of animals experience sexual pleasure and arousal and may use sex as a form of intimacy only.
I'm struggling to find anything else meaningful to respond to. The mind is part of the body, thus a mismatch between the mind and the body is an intersex experience.
Can we please lock this thread? I'm sorry I ever brought it up.
Quote from: Jill F on September 10, 2014, 04:57:45 PM
Can we please lock this thread? I'm sorry I ever brought it up.
I was going to say something else but according to your wishes of wanting in locked I won't. But personally I think it is a very legitimate question and really needs to be looked into.
Quote from: Ephemeral on September 09, 2014, 11:00:55 AM
This subject is poorly defined because:
1. What is "intersex"?
2. What is "transgender"?
The only studies that have been collected thus far are that of transsexuals and they do not represent the entirety of the transgender spectrum. Similarly, intersex is a condition that is traditionally defined as in having a chromosomal defect which results in sexual development that falls outside the expected norm. That someone can be born intersex and be transgender proves that they are not necessarily at all related as in both being intersex for the same reason someone can be born with various kinds of defects and these defects must not be related to though may appear similar.
I know some want to claim that transgender is intersex but I think that is a naive and narrow way of understanding transgender and the transgender experience.
I think your hypnosis also holds flaws. You as society looks at everything in black or white. Who is to say that the "Tran* aspects does not manifest before the inter sex condition as society calls it only based on genital.
Society wants us to fit there rules and if they are just outside in the gray area they want them dismissed.
Sorry I for one after reaching all I could and my own feelings I have came to the conclusion in society that I was born of a IS condition and was forced the Tran* path because that is the label society says I must fit.
Labels is why there is so much hate in this world.
We are all born of nature and are humans.
Quote from: mrs izzy on September 10, 2014, 05:06:45 PM
I think your hypnosis also holds flaws. You as society looks at everything in black or white. Who is to say that the "Tran* aspects does not manifest before the inter sex condition as society calls it only based on genital.
Society wants us to fit there rules and if they are just outside in the gray area they want them dismissed.
Sorry I for one after reaching all I could and my own feelings I have came to the conclusion in society that I was born of a IS condition and was forced the Tran* path because that is the label society says I must fit.
Labels is why there is so much hate in this world.
We are all born of nature and are humans.
There is not one thing in your statement mrs izzy that I can disagree with. I think it is spot on.
Topic locked per OP request.