Hi all.
I have been a lurking reader a little bit now, and hoping for ideas. I have recently had the revelation that I just cannot live as my born gender much longer. I have struggled with the idea that I HAVE to be male, and hate the roles that are thrust upon me because of body parts.
I work in a very tough and macho industry, and will be starting a new job next month in a new city (SLC, Utah). I finished a master's degree this spring, and accepted my current job due to the need for work, but the relocation caused my wife to have to quit her teaching job back in our old city. She is doing the stay at home mom thing with our 3 yo, and also recently had her grandfather pass away - they were very close. New job = new move. She is also highly stressed about dental surgerythromycin she recently had, and she is scared that it won't take, and cause her to lose a tooth that is otherwise healthy. And she hates the place we have lived from 4 months and is stressed from being stir crazy (110 degree heat all summer does not allow for going out).
And we not too long ago had a random discussion about our sexual preferences and desires to explore things. She wants to, but I am a general prude. The result was that she had a comment that she has "zero sexual attraction" to women. And no interest in learning more in that direction
I have never been particularly masculine - but have to fake it to a small extent. Apparently I have been far more androgynous than I ever considered, since listening to y'all has shown me that many of my physical preferences to act are actually highly feminine (ie. Always crossing my legs and such).
With all of the stresses of life going on around us, I know that I need to tell her sooner than later.
She is a good person, and although a proud "card carrying republican" in almost every way, she is...openminded about people. She is highly spiritual non-practicing catholic, and a natural worrier. Sex stresses over everything. The only things she h as ever said are truly "divorce" worthy are lying, or cheating.
I worry that she will consider this lying to her for 8 years of knowing and being with her. I worry that telling her will add more stress to her plate when she is already having panic attacks and is suffering from some low grade depression. We just took on significant debt for me to do my masters (very transferable if I need to swap companies...industries will be tougher but posSibley if needed) ad SHE is supposed to do her own studies next year. That's another stress btw - she does not do well on standardized testing and has until November to prepare for the gre...and hasn't done math (algebra on) since college. She freaks out nightly ajoutnit.
I don't know the best TIME to tell her...let alone how. I want desperately to see a gender specialized therapist, and can likely piggyback timing for one after a required physical and drug screening exam. I would love to have her support (whi cm bi believe she will eventually offer), and would prefer to keep the relationship fully intact if possible. I know that regardless I will be offering any financial assistance I can to provide for her to do school, and will always be there for our daughter.
But what timing should I use to try to tell her? I like the idea of trying to make her part of the whole process and not giving an ultimatum. Luckily for me, I'm too passive and submissive to do that to her anyway.
From figuring out when...what kind of day and mood...before or after the move...before or after she applies to grad school...the gre...etc.
Help me with recommendations of the things to look out for to find the best time to come out to her. I...don't know that this is a conversation that can ever truly have a best way of bringing it up and discussing it...but, I at least want the best chance for her to have the most capacity to deal with this major shift in my identity.
I hope you all can help me find the courage to figure out the when...and to follow through with exactly that. I am normally scared to do anything risky, let alone this major. I sometimes shake in the day, and can't sleep at night and have to force resolve to stop worrying about it so I can just be myself.
Thanks in advance for your help and wisdom.
Looking for wisdom eh? Good luck with that. Talking to your spouse is scary, hard, awkward and often doesn't go well. My wife made it very clear that a. she married a man, b. that I would never be a woman, c. that she was not and would never be a lesbian. It didn't go well.
Some couples however, do manage to figure it out. I find them extraordinary and I wish only that for you. There are a few things that I suggest you do first. Please talk to a professional. Find a counselor who is familiar with gender dysphoria and all the complications this brings to your life. Making gender choice decisions affect everything. If you do begin the path of transition everything you love will be put at risk. That you are here and from your eloquent letter, I think you know, put please be sure, and please before you talk to one you love have the vocabulary to articulate who and what you are.
There are low dose options that some here have found relieves the anxiety of dysphoria, with few physical changes and which have limited the disruption to their lives. That was not my story. I am a girl, my body didn't agree physically for some time, but in my heart I am female. Makes for confusion and misunderstanding when you have a spouse.
Find a neutral party that can interpret both of you. There are relationship counselors who are familiar with trans people, and who are fair. Take some time and find one.
Know what you can do and what you must do. Those are very different things. For your family to remain intact you simply have to know what your bottom line is and be able to articulate it without fear, and without rancor. Then maybe you'll have the time and space to redefine your marriage, and your relationship with your wife.
I wish you nothing but love.
Julie
I don't know if there is a 'good time' to come out to your wife. I know you should discuss this with a therapist, but I also know that some of the people here will have good advice for you based on personal experience. That being said, there are individual differences that come into play. When I came out to my wife, she was devastated. Are you familiar with the Kubler-Ross model, you know, the five stages of grief? (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance). That was a year and a half ago. We are still married.
I am sure that there may have been a better way to do it, but to this day, I don't know what that is. I'm truly sorry that I can't provide you with a precise roadmap here, A79.
I will suggest that you might steer her towards educational articles, tweets, youtube videos, but do it subtly. If she knows more about this state of being, it may lessen the blow. Ultimately, however, she is not a lesbian and she did not sign up for this, so there will be difficulty. It's not easy, but the problems are not unsurmountable. This should be a much longer discussion, but this is all I can do right now. Hope this helps a bit.
((hugs))
-ellie
Quote from: JulieBlair on September 10, 2014, 02:37:11 PM
Looking for wisdom eh? Good luck with that. Talking to your spouse is scary, hard, awkward and often doesn't go well. My wife made it very clear that a. she married a man, b. that I would never be a woman, c. that she was not and would never be a lesbian. It didn't go well.
Some couples however, do manage to figure it out. I find them extraordinary and I wish only that for you. There are a few things that I suggest you do first. Please talk to a professional. Find a counselor who is familiar with gender dysphoria and all the complications this brings to your life. Making gender choice decisions affect everything. If you do begin the path of transition everything you love will be put at risk. That you are here and from your eloquent letter, I think you know, put please be sure, and please before you talk to one you love have the vocabulary to articulate who and what you are.
There are low dose options that some here have found relieves the anxiety of dysphoria, with few physical changes and which have limited the disruption to their lives. That was not my story. I am a girl, my body didn't agree physically for some time, but in my heart I am female. Makes for confusion and misunderstanding when you have a spouse.
Find a neutral party that can interpret both of you. There are relationship counselors who are familiar with trans people, and who are fair. Take some time and find one.
Know what you can do and what you must do. Those are very different things. For your family to remain intact you simply have to know what your bottom line is and be able to articulate it without fear, and without rancor. Then maybe you'll have the time and space to redefine your marriage, and your relationship with your wife.
I wish you nothing but love.
Julie
What Julie and Ellie said.^^
Great advice for getting started.
Its a very hard path we walk, it can come with compromises as long as each part still does not feel trapped.
If with therapist you must move forward letting go is easier in the long run sometimes.
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Glad you joined our family.
Safe walk on your path.
Izzy
My wife and I are still happily married after I transitioned.
I'm not going to lie to you- your odds of your marriage surviving are anywhere from 5 to 50%. The jury is out on that one, but I was one of the lucky ones.
First of all, you did NOT lie to your wife. When you married her, you didn't need to transition. Gender dysphoria is something that gets worse over time, and now your "bell" is finally ringing. l'm guessing most of us try to stuff it down deep, try to forget about it, suppress it and deny it, which can work for years and years until finally something sets your "bell" off and that little voice in the background suddenly take center stage. If you keep it from her any longer, then you are lying. I came out to my wife the day I came out to myself. I did not want to violate her trust or do anything behind her back, because that was definitely going to wreck or permanently damage our marriage. Telling her right away will only maybe have serious consequences. You need to break it to her that you are suddenly having a spike in these feelings and need to talk to a therapist. Get a therapist who specializes in gender issues, not some quack who thinks you can pray it away or someone who has little or no experience with transgender people. Trust me, the longer you wait, the worse it gets. The 6 or so weeks between when I came out and saw a therapist almost killed me- twice. Waking up in the hospital sucks. I didn't want to be transgender at all, I didn't want to have to transition, but once I started on estrogen, it got a lot better for me very quickly.
Your wife will be angry, sad and hurt for having the rug pulled out from under her. There will be tears. In the end though, my wife and I are soulmates, and in her words, she married a person, not a gender. We have workarounds in the bedroom now and things are fine. She likes the "new me" even better because I am almost always happy. I used to be depressed and angry all the time, and she always wondered when she'd come home and find me dead.
This is going to be the hardest thing you'll ever have to do, but the longer you wait, the worse your chances are.
All the best,
Jill
I think "coming out" is highly over-rated. It can be a great shock and is almost certain to make things seem worse than they actually are.
Think of it this way.. It has taken you years to come to the conclusion that you are transsexual. I'm sure it wasn't easy for you to accept this. How can you expect your wife to absorb and accept in one day, what took you decades to accept?
You could take years to fully reveal what took you years to learn about yourself.
In circumstances where a transsexual "comes out" it nearly always conjures up an image of something worse than than it really is.
Her imagination goes into overdrive. She will imagine things like this:
You've gone completely crazy.
You will dress in drag and embarrass yourself and her.
You will run off with a man.
Your safety will be in danger.
You've had a change in personality, and the person she married will totally disappear.
Most of these fears will eventually prove to be unfounded.
The change from male to female is actually not that extreme. Most of what you were, you will continue to be.
Randi
Telling a spouse is probably one of the hardest parts of transition, I'd say being forced to tell my daughter was harder but only just. My wife was well aware I cross dressed and was generally not bothered as long as the kids didn't know but she also had no interest in women. To be fair to her she tried to be supportive at the beginning when I wanted to see therapists to help me understand, She even came with me when I was referred to a Sex Counselor by my family doc, It was after they had a 30 min session alone that he warned me if you do this she'll leave you no matter how much she says she won't and he was right.
My advice on this would be as others have said to see a Gender Therapist but to maybe not bring the topic up with your wife until at least after her November tests. There are many degrees of transition and right now it would be impossible to say how far you would want to go. With that in mind if you can talk to someone and in time include your wife in the discussions maybe she will see that right now you're confused over your Gender Identity and therefore are not lying or cheating. As she is an open minded person and presumably loves you as much as you love her I'm sure there is hope for you both. I asked my psyche last year about the number of patients she sees who have a relationship and she said about 50%, Of these maybe 25% are still with their original partner so it is very possible for a relationship to survive.
I hope this has helped in some way and that you can find a solution that works for you both
Good Luck :)
Than you all for quick yet thorough and we'll thought out responses.
I will try to cover my reactions to all, but I am on a phone, so please forgive me if I miss anyone.
@SorchaC I had not thought of the exam date as a good time that may be worth consI derive for sure. The degree I am at now is that I have reconciled that I hope to be full-time and strongly leaning towards SRS (though looking into post op has certainly scared me - I did not know of so much dilation required). As has been mentioned, I have had years to get here, and my commitment is first to myself, but part of that includes being true to who I am - one who wishes to honor my commitment to care for those I love. I could go slower than my desires for them if it helps them be on board through full time and beyond. I also accept that it is more likely than not, at some point I will be a single girl in her 30s/400 at some point. I care about salvaging the relationship as much as possible, and hope it is completely so, but have tempered expectations.
@Randi I agree that imageryou matters, and lack of time matters. But, does prepping and hinting over say...2 months, have a significant impact? I am not in an immediate hurresponse to do more than see a professional and start mapping out a full long term plan with Milestones that are not rushed or hurried. And I am willing to delay some if needed for the opportunity to have buy in or even keep the marriage. I do care deeply for her, and admire her as someone who I would love to have mentor me in womanhood. That would be my best dream for her to do so. Strangely enough, it has been surprisingly easy to accept this new perspective, in part because it HAS been building up for several years. As an openminded person of great tolerance before...it was not a stretch to say, "wow. This is coming back stronger than ever...now it isn't going away. What does it mean?" And coming to a conclusion.
@Jill I know exactly the "book" you refernced...my hell IS ringing. It was that reading, especially as hard as it is, as harsh as it shows this to be...that helped me realize it isn't a desire or a want - this is a need that I no longer can stop.
@Julie I believe it won't be as harsh a reaction as you had to deal witmh, but it may very well be the same result. It is my intention to seek a specialist that is qualified for my own sake for sure. I never had significant trouble before - no suicidal/addic to on/etc. If anything, I have been fortunate to have lived with a feminine/androgynous personality that was stuck presenting as male. I just...don't identify as male inside, with the exception of gender neutral items. In my heart and soul, I am also female.
@ellie is there anything in particular that seems to have helped the conversations and stars of grief better or that made things worse? I'm not good at ultimatum anyway, but my hope is to be as ked questions that can be answered openly for the second time ever in my life (first being to myself with my best friend as my sounding board). It would also be the first time to speak the words as opposed to th inking or typing the conversation. That Maes me shake just thinking about having that tough conversation.
@Izzy I agree, which is why I came out from lurking to get some help and support. I have seen many internet boards in my life, and this one is genuinely supportive and on topic, which is what I was looking for.
I don't think there is any need to delay your transition. You just need to control the flow of information to keep her from overload. Use a soda straw, not a firehose.
At this point you do not know how the extent or the speed of your transition. A wise person only goes as far as necessary the achieve comfort. After you get some estrogen in your system, you might find drastic changes are not needed.
It takes a born female around 10 years to go from a child to a woman. Are you planning to do that in six months?
Quote from: anonymous79 on September 10, 2014, 05:19:48 PM
But, does prepping and hinting over say...2 months, have a significant impact?
Quote from: Randi on September 10, 2014, 09:36:55 PM
I don't think there is any need to delay your transition. You just need to control the flow of information to keep her from overload. Use a soda straw, not a firehose.
At this point you do not know how the extent or the speed of your transition. A wise person only goes as far as necessary the achieve comfort. After you get some estrogen in your system, you might find drastic changes are not needed.
It takes a born female around 10 years to go from a child to a woman. Are you planning to do that in six months?
Thank heavens no. I realize it takes so much more time. I am just trying to figure out the first two steps so to speak. I wish it to be done right for sure...as much as I can avoid rushing anything or panicking.
I do like the soda straw metaphor though. I keep swimming in my head as to what I should say when I do - and I tend to be too detailed and informed by nature. Keeping it simple and to the point may help. Answer questions later.
I'm so here. *pulls up a chair to listen* Still trying to figure out my bottom line.
What made things "easier"? My acquiescence. My wife wanted me to remain closeted, so far I'm doing that. No make-up, not "dressing", keeping my nails trimmed (doing that anyway 'cause I play strings). The only piercings I have are from blood tests...
In the beginning, all I got was disdain, anger, revulsion. It's mostly just revulsion now, with the occasional pinch of anger thrown in. Progress! I tried early on to explain to her that I hadn't understood what was going on with me when we were courting. I didn't know that the bell would eventually go off. I was in denial. That did not help much. She did some reading and started asking me questions. Keep in mind that I had already been seeing a psychologist about this for several years before I came out. She proposed that this was a paraphilia. Then she accused me of defrauding her of her life. She asked me about bottom surgery and HRT, some rather detailed questions. I tried to answer these points calmly, but I got back disdainful comments and general derision. I even took her to a couple of my therapy sessions. Things got a little better over the last year, but still, they are not so great. We do not share any physical intimacy at all, not even a hug, not ever. At this point in time, the only thing that makes this even remotely tolerable for me is the daily kiss of estrogen, an occasional glass of whisky and faint hope.
My story is different from Jill's (well, except for that part about reaching for eternity), but then, I come from a different time and place. Given our age difference, I don't know how much my experience applies to your situation. I will say, however, that my wife recognized that HRT has elevated my mood considerably and has accepted that it is a good thing for me. I think a whole bunch of this depends on your wife too, you know?
I am speaking *as* the wife here, in the hopes that it will be helpful. I definitely recommend the "soda straw" and "remember the stages of grief" suggestions; keep in mind that this will likely come as a shock to her, and don't dump too much on her at once or expect too much of her reaction. She may well freak out in any number of ways, and my advice is to give her some time to absorb the information. Answer questions if she has them, but don't be surprised if there's basically crying and yelling and not much productive in the first conversation. That does *not* mean it's hopeless or that she'll never come around, it means that she's upset beyond reason (literally, beyond the ability to reason) and needs to get over the initial feeling that a bomb went off in her life.
(My general rule of thumb, and reassurance, is that most of the time the first reaction is as bad as it will ever get; if it's a good one, great! But even if it's bad, it might not mean she's going to stay there. Also as a ray of hope is my post : https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,172674.0.html in which the odds of a marriage surviving are presented as roughly similar to the chances of divorce in the cis population. Nothing, of course, can guarantee your specific wife's response.)
In the slightly longer term - after that first conversation - keep her informed to the degree that she wants to be, communicate, and consider compromising on the speed of transition if you think she's making a good-faith effort to stick with you through the journey. Oh, and go read in the SO's forum about what it's like to be on the other side of the conversation, in case any of it gives you some inspiration. :) I'm not being sarcastic there - we've got some happy ending stories there, including mine, but also a lot of discussion of *how* that was achieved.
I hope I am not speaking out of turn, but this is an extremely poignant thread for me and has brought up a lot of both old and new feelings. (Why do I read it you might ask? I have no good answer, but somehow It lets me cry.) Disclosure to my wife didn't work out for me, and I still grieve, not only for my loss but for Donna who saw her best friend become something that she could no longer relate to in any positive way. There is pain on both sides, and neither of us escaped whole. Reading about the success' makes me wonder what I could have been and done differently. I could have been less defensive, I tried to be accommodating but that only led to sadness and despair. I was often told that for me there was little if any choice, transition really was an existential crisis, I could not go on as I was. I still wonder if that was true, but I feel in my heart that it is.
Jill you give hope where hope is scarce. I was neither as honest, nor as open and honorable as you. I think that trading terror of loss with honest dialog is a saving and magical attribute. I screwed both up, fear and isolation are sneaky and controlling demons. They certainly had me in their talons.
Ellie,
Your story makes me weep, every time I read or hear it. Your friendship and conversation mean everything to me, and to see you in such pain rips me apart. I love you girlfriend, you are brilliant, loving and gentle. I wish things were not as they are.
Blueconstancy,
I have more admiration for you than I can express. Your partner is beyond fortunate, and you are a wonderful teacher and source of wisdom. I read everything on the SO pages some time ago, and revisited them again last week. There is pain, strength, and transcendence there. Everyone should take a look and learn.
Randi,
You have prudence and enormously sound advise. Soda straw/fire hose, nice. You are absolutely spot on in that many find a low dose solution, but I tried it, and failed miserably. Some of us must be wholly remade.
anonymous79,
I hope that you have the courage and patience to work through who you authentically need to be, and to enter into this new world with your wife. I would give a lot to have been so gifted with insight as that given here today when I began my transition a few years ago.
I entered into transition desperate and isolated, Donna had effectively been living alone for years. This was just the last straw in an already unbearable load. This was true for both of us. We are both moving on now, and it will be okay. The tunnel will end and joy has returned. These forums are amazing and transformative when they are at their best, and this thread is a good example of the best.
Thank you to eveyone,
Julie
Julie : *blush* I'm also very lucky to have her, and we're both fortunate that we could each bend enough to meet in the middle. Although this may not be the thread to mention it, yes, not everyone can find a way through the thicket of transition and out the other side still hand in hand, and to some degree it's not about how much you love each other or how hard you try. I'm glad to hear that both you and Donna can find joy again, but if it's any consolation, it's clear even in cis marriages that not all couples can stay together forever. It does not, of course, negate the love and happiness that existed if the marriage eventually ends.
In other words, you did the best you could, and you and Donna had something real together even if you are separated now. I don't know if that's any consolation at all, but I have no doubt that you and she genuinely could not have tried harder.
(If it helps, when I'm talking about transition now... well, hindsight is 20/20 for the success stories too. At the time I often felt like the antithesis of wisdom; I was blundering about in the dark trying desperately to find a path through that metaphorical thicket, and landing in quite a few metaphorical thornbushes. I know *now* what worked and what didn't, but there were plenty of false starts and missteps and words I wish I could take back. Believe me, when I say "don't take your wife's first reactions to heart," I meant it from personal experience!)
awww Julie...
You're my rock, you know? My inspiration, a blessing for us all :)
A brief update for those so kind to have responded before. I...had an attempt to...open u/come out so to speak, and it...could have been worse and better both. I still have a family, we are trying to work through everything to see if we can find a compromise to make things work. Unfortunately, that does not look so good for the big picture. It comes down to the fact that she feels "betrayed" as has been mentioned by others, and now worries that anything I do will mean I am pushing further and farther along to an end that she has said she just cannot deal with. She is...accepting of private, in home, never to be taken outside the house crossdressing, but anything that makes her even THINK about me even considering going further sends her to a major breakdown.
I do love her dearly, and would give up the final desired result in order to make a halfway around being dual-gendered....male at work and part time at home for her, and female for part time for me. I can't even discuss that however, as she had one of those breakdowns when I casually mentioned I would like to discuss the IDEA of eventually having a few items of clothing of my own. It...did not go over well at all.
I am trying to go slow to see if she just needs time to process, time to grieve, time to adjust, and time to reconcile an time to deal with a second major move this coming month. I just...don't know that it will work out.I hope it does. I am still in live with her and committed to being the best partner I can be. I just don't know how good I can truly be, because I don't like how I fit into society and have to act so different than I naturally act and feel.
I definitely need to seek a professional when we do the move, so I am in active search now, but, at this point I am still intending on going slow and deliberately with everything. I want to save the marriage and the relationship, as I know for a fact in my heart.. if she leaves, I start transitioning immediately. I will not leave her without it being critical to one of us, and will see what I can and cannot do for her.
I just wish she wouldn't continue to revert to the "selfish"argument...is it not selfish to not let me discuss what I feel? Or to try to prevent me from "changing" to my true self simply because it means I identify as female, yet don't change anything of my personality?
So, here is to prudence and patience, may I have much of both. And the strength and wisdom to make the right decisions at the right time regardless.
Suggestions and comments appreciated.
Quote from: anonymous79 on September 29, 2014, 05:29:05 PM
A brief update for those so kind to have responded before. I...had an attempt to...open u/come out so to speak, and it...could have been worse and better both. I still have a family, we are trying to work through everything to see if we can find a compromise to make things work. Unfortunately, that does not look so good for the big picture. It comes down to the fact that she feels "betrayed" as has been mentioned by others, and now worries that anything I do will mean I am pushing further and farther along to an end that she has said she just cannot deal with. She is...accepting of private, in home, never to be taken outside the house crossdressing, but anything that makes her even THINK about me even considering going further sends her to a major breakdown.
I do love her dearly, and would give up the final desired result in order to make a halfway around being dual-gendered....male at work and part time at home for her, and female for part time for me. I can't even discuss that however, as she had one of those breakdowns when I casually mentioned I would like to discuss the IDEA of eventually having a few items of clothing of my own. It...did not go over well at all.
I am trying to go slow to see if she just needs time to process, time to grieve, time to adjust, and time to reconcile an time to deal with a second major move this coming month. I just...don't know that it will work out.I hope it does. I am still in live with her and committed to being the best partner I can be. I just don't know how good I can truly be, because I don't like how I fit into society and have to act so different than I naturally act and feel.
I definitely need to seek a professional when we do the move, so I am in active search now, but, at this point I am still intending on going slow and deliberately with everything. I want to save the marriage and the relationship, as I know for a fact in my heart.. if she leaves, I start transitioning immediately. I will not leave her without it being critical to one of us, and will see what I can and cannot do for her.
I just wish she wouldn't continue to revert to the "selfish"argument...is it not selfish to not let me discuss what I feel? Or to try to prevent me from "changing" to my true self simply because it means I identify as female, yet don't change anything of my personality?
So, here is to prudence and patience, may I have much of both. And the strength and wisdom to make the right decisions at the right time regardless.
Suggestions and comments appreciated.
As a few have said time and patience, Only you know how far is far enough, I worked away allot and my wife was happy for me to do whatever I wanted when away and even at times at home if the kids were in bed. It takes time to get to that so for now I'd advise you reassure her of your commitment to her and your relationship and make many mentions of the future together. She may well throw in some stuff about there being no future or how you've ruined things but reply to that with things like you're not even sure what you want apart from to continue loving and supporting your family especially her. She hasn't thrown you out or smashed up the house and become a quivering wreck so given time and love I'm sure you'll get room to grow some. Being Trans is a selfish thing because at some point you have to do some things for yourself to survive and this can seem unfair but there has to be a trade off, You cannot do it all your way and not consider her but then if she blocks everything you do then you'll feel forced to make a stand and that just won't work. When she has time to think I'm sure questions will come and I still believe the first step is speaking to a Therapist and exploring how you feel.
Hope that helps you some. Feel free to either ask for more advice or tell me to hush up, You won't be the first to ignore me ;D
Hugs
Sorcha :)