I think there is a bit of misunderstanding here. Non-binaries usually see themselves as both male and female and, quite legitimately, wonder why cis people fail to consider this advantagious and enriching, as you sort of possess keys to both kingdoms, being endowed with superior knowledge and insights into both male and female psyche...
But the problem is, for majority of us (cis), 'androgynous' does not mean both male and female, it means neither. In a way, male and female characteristics in the same person tend to nullify each other, in the eyes of the cis-world.
Do you see how this can be problematic to come to a mutual understanding?
This is a manifestation of cis privilege, rather than listening to a non binary person describe their experiences of being non binary, they have had their experiences belittled, told the word that they're using doesn't actually mean what they've described and has probably left them wishing that they'd never bothered to explain in the first place. Even if the person they were trying to explain to was genuinely interested and wanted to learn.
The English language is still playing catch up with non binary realities, telling someone off for not using the precise definition of the word is not helping you understand a non binary reality, and it doesn't help the non binary person trying to explain because you've pretty much derailed what they were saying and made it about cis perspectives on gender.
[/thread]
First off, making blanket statements about a group of diverse individuals is not cool. At all. It's one thing to have an opinion, it's another to parade said opinion as if it is fact.
Secondly, you seem to have mixed non-binary and androgynous up. It's common, mistakes happen and it's nothing to be ashamed of!
Non-Binaries, by definition, are gender identities that do not fit within the accepted binary of male and female. People can feel they are both, neither, or some mixture thereof. For example, I identify as non-binary and the core of my identity is genderless - neither male or female. I accept I have gender expressions that are masculine or feminine but I do not strictly see myself as male or female in terms of gender identity.
Androgynous as a gender expression - before I even learned about transgender or non-binary identities, I viewed androgynous people as having both feminine and masculine characteristics. I never thought of them being neither because society doesn't exactly tell you that the nature of being neither gender exists, just that there is only strictly male and female. At least, that's what society told me - maybe it was different for you? Awfully vague but I'm open to hear why you think so :)
Actually, Orie, Non-Binary can mean any of a variety of ways that gender is experienced. It merely means not completely male, and not completely female. Some non-binary folks feel androgynous, some feel part male part female, some feel like a member of an yet unexplored third gender, some feel no gender at all, and some switch back and forth between any or all of the above. That doesn't even begin to cover it.
In my opinion, there is no right or wrong way to be non-binary or to describe the very real experience of being non-binary.
Quote from: suzifrommd link =topic=1 73395 .msg152.1173#m sg1521173 date=1410736160
Actually, Orie, Non-Binary can mean any of a variety of ways that gender is experienced. It merely means not completely male, and not completely female. Some non-binary folks feel androgynous, some feel part male part female, some feel like a member of an yet unexplored third gender, some feel no gender at all, and some switch back and forth between any or all of the above. That doesn't even begin to cover it.
In my opinion, there is no right or wrong way to be non-binary or to describe the very real experience of being non-binary.
Suzi,
I think that puts it very nicely :)
Julie
Quote from: orie on September 14, 2014, 10:28:34 AM
Non-binaries usually see themselves as both male and female and, quite legitimately, wonder why cis people fail to consider this advantagious and enriching, as you sort of possess keys to both kingdoms, being endowed with superior knowledge and insights into both male and female psyche...
I love the way you wrote that, I feel empowered by thinking of myself in those terms...
As for androgynous meaning neither gender and nullifying each binary, I never thought of it like that..? I always believed it meant the best qualities of both binaries... Androgyny was at the half way point between male and female, where non binarys are nearer one binary than the other.? I hope I explained it correctly..?
Hmm, keys to both kingdoms...??? Lucky us...!! ;D
Quote from: Mark3 on September 14, 2014, 09:21:33 PM
Hmm, keys to both kingdoms...??? Lucky us...!! ;D
Very true! ;D I feel like we should incorporate this into the unicorn forest thread!
Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 14, 2014, 09:33:49 PM
Very true! ;D I feel like we should incorporate this into the unicorn forest thread!
YES YES..! ;D let's do..!!!
no no no. that's just so wrong.
talking about having the keys to both kingdoms is just... too little.
non-binary people have the keys to the entire universe, if they just choose to use them.
why settle for just male and female, when there is so much more to discover?
why view gender as a line that goes from female to male, with some androgynous in the middle?
i view gender as at least 3 dimensional.
that line can't account for how gender can be no gender at all, or both genders at the same time.
neither does it account for something else entirely, which many of us experience.
gender is at least as vast as the universe.
those who are willing to look beyond what is known and the binaries acknowledged by the cistem, will discover a most astonishing truth.
or more like a whole ton of questions to be answered as we dare to think outside boxes and established beliefs about the world.
why it that i'm happy to have found myself as non-binary?
for some petty reason like getting the best of both worlds?
are you telling me there are only two worlds?
i'm already seeing something so vast, that i would never want to go back to binary thinking.
it's so much more than what can be imagined with only male and female as reference points.
the difference is like between black and white, and millions of colors.
those who still want to see the world through that age old tv of theirs are welcome to do so of course.
i'd love me some more color though.
Quote from: Taka on September 15, 2014, 03:33:32 AM
no no no. that's just so wrong.
talking about having the keys to both kingdoms is just... too little.
non-binary people have the keys to the entire universe, if they just choose to use them.
why settle for just male and female, when there is so much more to discover?
why view gender as a line that goes from female to male, with some androgynous in the middle?
i view gender as at least 3 dimensional.
that line can't account for how gender can be no gender at all, or both genders at the same time.
neither does it account for something else entirely, which many of us experience.
gender is at least as vast as the universe.
those who are willing to look beyond what is known and the binaries acknowledged by the cistem, will discover a most astonishing truth.
or more like a whole ton of questions to be answered as we dare to think outside boxes and established beliefs about the world.
why it that i'm happy to have found myself as non-binary?
for some petty reason like getting the best of both worlds?
are you telling me there are only two worlds?
i'm already seeing something so vast, that i would never want to go back to binary thinking.
it's so much more than what can be imagined with only male and female as reference points.
the difference is like between black and white, and millions of colors.
those who still want to see the world through that age old tv of theirs are welcome to do so of course.
i'd love me some more color though.
Yes I get it much better now, thats great insight..
You all blow my mind sometimes with the way you get these complicated things..! Its so cool..
I feel like someone just learning how to swim, but only knowing so far how to float and flop around...? I'm still getting my feet wet, learning the basics, but not enough to look or sound like I know what I'm doing, or being able to Swim beautifully like the rest of you..
I want that universe of a million colors that's inside of me..!! I want it so bad...
you can find it, just takes a little bit of soul searching.
don't worry about how little or much you know right now, it took us all a whole lot of time to get to the different places we're at today.
there are many interesting discussions hidden in the past, regarding gender.
i was once even more clueless than what you are right now.
Your gender experience is fascinating and unique. And thanks to you testimonies here, I realize more than ever that it doesn't seem to hold any connection to the experience on 'this' side of the gender. In our eyes, feminine and masculine in one person doesn't read complementary, but rather exclude one another and render the person X or genderless. In our eyes (I emphasize), the result is exactly the same whether a person identifies both male and female, or neither male nor female, and all we read is - 'genderless'.
Our experiences don't seem to translate into one another, unless ending up with a nonsensical translation. To give an idea: being part-time male or female sounds like being both alive and dead at the same time, or neither, or more the one than the other at different times. I have no idea how you can mentally live this reality. But you do, you are striong, and I admire you (without understanding). :( :embarrassed:
Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 08:35:34 AM
Your gender experience is fascinating and unique. And thanks to you testimonies here, I realize more than ever that it doesn't seem to hold any connection to the experience on 'this' side of the gender. In our eyes, feminine and masculine in one person doesn't read complementary, but rather exclude one another and render the person X or genderless. In our eyes (I emphasize), the result is exactly the same whether a person identifies both male and female, or neither male nor female, and all we read is - 'genderless'.
Our experiences don't seem to translate into one another, unless ending up with a nonsensical translation. To give an idea: being part-time male or female sounds like being both alive and dead at the same time, or neither, or more the one than the other at different times. I have no idea how you can mentally live this reality. But you do, you are striong, and I admire you (without understanding). :( :embarrassed:
Well, there is a reason why majority consider themselves binary (maybe even without being aware of that). Because they think that one can only have a single set of qualities, attributable to one particular gender. Really, I often wonder if all transpeople by simple fact of their existence manifest the non-binary approach towards gender. Yet, most of them feel (or do not comprehend) that and shun non-binary thoughts for simple desire to be accepted within cisgender community (in other words, not to stand out). Yet, I cannot and will never comprehend how a person who has lived X years in the shoes of one gender can simply forget and leave that previous life behind. Or even reject it as "not being lived by his/her true self". Someone must have lived that life... who was that person? Where is he/she now?
Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 08:35:34 AM
Our experiences don't seem to translate into one another, unless ending up with a nonsensical translation. To give an idea: being part-time male or female sounds like being both alive and dead at the same time, or neither, or more the one than the other at different times. I have no idea how you can mentally live this reality. But you do, you are striong, and I admire you (without understanding). :( :embarrassed:
It's ok, nothing to be embarrassed about! Here's a concept and no one has to be religious or even believe the story as anything other than allegory to be able to understand this a little further.
When Adam, supposedly the first real human was created he possessed both complete male and female attributes according to the story. But since he was the first of his kind and no mate could be found he was put into a deep slumber and the XX female part of him was drawn out to create Eve. This in turn left him with an XY chromosome as evidence of that event, Eve was fully female and Adam now fully male for the sake of mutual fellowship and procreation, thus the creation of the cis condition which doesn't preclude the possibility and even that probability that non-binary androgynous humanity have been here from the beginning and that cis genders are simply spin-offs to accommodate the business of populating the planet. This isn't cast in stone, but is food for a little more thought beyond one dimensional thinking.
Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 08:35:34 AM
Our experiences don't seem to translate into one another, unless ending up with a nonsensical translation. To give an idea: being part-time male or female sounds like being both alive and dead at the same time, or neither, or more the one than the other at different times.
Alive and dead at the same time? Or neither as in not existing at all?
It's obvious to society, but not to cisciety that gender is very diverse and that this concept of only two genders and nothing between is false and borders on ignorance.
From my viewpoint, it is the binary cis that seem to be only one dimension in their thinking, as if they are dead on one side in their world view.
I would rather be dead than to be confined to such a small empty box of thought that only allows me to think in one imaginary term of gender.
The binary gender is imaginary to a large degree, studies have shown the most cis people consider themselves to fall in a 80/20 kind of gender.
At the very least. Yet you deny even the small 20% part of yourself.
How do you even get through life thinking in only one dimension when your mind is trying to tell you your not?
It must be horribly frustrating to live behind this mask of false expectations of who you are, it is no wonder you find some kind of connection.
But your description of it has to be taken as false itself, by your own inability.
Your own refusal to even try and think in terms of more than two imaginary genders that you can only be one of.
Everything in life is somewhere on a middle ground and not at the very ends, an imaginary place you have bought into...
You aren't as binary as you have all fooled yourselves into thinking you are, by this mass buying into of the idea of binary gender.
It must be very limiting in thinking, which seems apparent to me that you do.
I can't even begin to imagine how utterly sad it must be to go through life as denying that you indeed do have traits of more than this imaginary belief that you are only this or that and not a part of all that there is to offer a person.
It's like saying you will and can only eat vanilla ice cream when there is obviously chocolate and so many other flavors available to you.
That you have to make a choice for life that you can only have either vanilla or chocolate and that the other flavors don't exist.
Because you have bought into this imaginary idea that you can only eat the flavor assigned to you at birth.
These concepts of gender as a strict binary are nothing more than opinions that have been handed down over countless generations.
To the point that cisciety today is comprised of mostly gender bigots, people who look down on anyone who is different.
Cisciety even determines that one of those binary genders is superior over the other, an off shoot of this bigotry, or maybe the root of it.
I don't know, I wasn't raised by bigots in my life, I was taught that they are limited in their abilities to think in broader terms like the rest of society..
I refer to your kind as the cisciety as opposed to the more enlighten people who make up the majority of people we all think of as society, which we are a part of.
Yet you and your kind who fail so grandly at the concept of gender, you have your own place, cisciety, a dimensionless way of thinking.
I can see by your writing, I can sense that you are indeed hiding your own gender and refuse to acknowledge that you do have traits of your other so called gender in you.
I meet people, I see people, I interact with people all day long like you, and trust me, I can see the different side of this so called binary in every single one of you.
I see it, I feel it, I sense it.
It isn't hard to do, everyone has multiple components of this so called binary gender in them.
Open your eyes, your mind if you possibly can and you'll see it too, if you can manage to crawl out of the binary box you confine yourself to.
If you wish to consider yourself binary, I don't care.
A lot of people do because of the self imposed bigotry that cisciety has bought into and now own and have to declare it true.
You are after all, ignorant enough about gender, even your own that you have to refer to us alive and dead at the same time?
You are typical of those who latch onto an idea that has no merit and is disproved over and over.
Yet you cling to the ideas that if it was good enough for daddy and his daddy it is good enough to you.
Your closed minds that there is only a black and white world of gender, yet there never has been.
It's a misconception you bought into and cling to because you own it.
The very large portion of society that does indeed have the capacity to understand that being able to think in far more diverse terms than vanilla or chocolate,
is really thinking in reality, as every person has the capacity to do.
I can't imagine the sadness and loneliness of forcing oneself into believing they are only able to think in a single dimension.
This is a universe of diversity that far more people than you could possibly know, do think in terms of more than one pitiful way that gender has to be.
It never existed as male or female, that is a construct that cisciety bought and clings to and denies that anything but their own bigoted thinking will allow.
Cisciety is ruining the ability of the rest of society to move on to bigger and better things by your limited ways of thinking...
Yah we are strong, but we have to be in the face of such narrow minded thinking.
We aren't inherently strong, we are the artists, the writers, the musicians, the poets and troubadours that you all admire so much, we aren't strong, we are real.
I don't know whether to be sad for you and your condescending attitude, or simply disgusted by your inability to see the truth in front of you.
Alive or dead? No, no no, that is ciscietal thinking, a zombie existence of a sort, to resign yourself to thinking in only one dimension of gender.
No, it is you who are either alive or dead by those standards of thinking, in that singular way of thinking, in a world that has many dimensions.
No, No, No,... it isn't us who are alive or dead, that belongs to cisciety and it's limited capability to think outside it's box it's afraid to step out of.
Ativan
I don't know, most people (all, if you like) exhibit a mixture of the male and the female, and the fact is, they don't experience it as problematic. There definitely is a gender continuum, but hardly as arbitrary and chaotic as you see it. Most people with aversion to gender stereotypes do not doubt their own gender. You see, there is huge difference between being a male or a female with traits of the opposite gender (at 80/20 ratio or whatever) and identifying as both male and female, or as neither. The latter is predictably confusing, for everyone involved, the fomer isn't.
Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 08:35:34 AM
Our experiences don't seem to translate into one another, unless ending up with a nonsensical translation. To give an idea: being part-time male or female sounds like being both alive and dead at the same time, or neither, or more the one than the other at different times. I have no idea how you can mentally live this reality. But you do, you are striong, and I admire you (without understanding). :( :embarrassed:
I also come from a CIS background, and even though I didn't know all of the terms and explanations of how our minds work, I inherantly knew there was more to me than just a male, it was never something I just never "got"..? Do you ever feel just unhappy and alone being you.? I did for years, just trying to be happy riding the magical CIS bus along day to day, cuz that's what I was told to do... When I came here, I was helped by others and able to for the first time get off that old bus, and be the whole me that I always knew was there.. I accept and love myself so much more now, I have to pinch myself to make sure its real.. And I am real..! To the CIS folks writing above and not being able to understand, I don't know what to tell you..? Maybe to keep trying.? To reject all the stuff you've been taught, and look openly into yourself without fearing what anyone else will think..? Maybe all of the above..?
I feel sad for you, because life holds so much more, and you don't sound able to even see the beauty in it..?
I feel like shrodinger's cat, being alive and dead at the same time
Orie, the only thing confusing here is the confusion that you personally are experiencing.
There isn't a continuum, there are components, pick and choose.
If a person doesn't pick any, what is so confusing about that?
Should we call the gender police and tell them there's a person out here who refuses to choose?
You have a choice between many good things and many bad things.
You choose none of them.
Would you be confused?
And would anyone care?
Cis talk the talk, they have never walked the walk.
It's insulting to try to make us believe you know what gender is to us.
If you have a question, ask it, but don't pretend like you know the answer and we asked you a question.
Ativan
I don't understand it, what do you pick and choose? You sure don't mean your gender?
That is the key, Orie.
You have not yet opened your mind to understand. In order to do this, you will need to consider, that there are vast differences in perception of gender. One that is bound to only one way of identification, is one that cannot see the truth, like seeing only one side of a square area, you cannot see the entire object, your eyes are trained to only see one side of the square area, which becomes your reality, but we see the whole object, and more than that.
Gender is an elusive thing. Forced gender is a terrible thing, I came from a place of forced gender, the damage is horrific, the pain immense, the healing is slow.
Open you eyes, see if you can see the truth, unburden yourself, you may then see us in our beauty. But to limit non binary identity is futile, we left that behind us long ago, discovering validity, uniqueness, and the truth of who we are.
Forced gender is not healthy. Far from it. It can actually kill, it has before here on this forum, it must never do so again.
And yes my dear ones of the forest, keep this one out of the forest thread please. As a little favor to me, if you will. To many painful memories are in this, visions of a past I wish to see gone, inhuman brutality that is best left alone.
---Satinjoy
Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 05:30:19 PM
I don't understand it, what do you pick and choose? You sure don't mean your gender?
I know for certain that no-one here wants to enter into a contentious conversation here with you Orie, and I for one appreciate your interest in discovering for yourself what this is all about. So I am speaking for myself here only, and my stuff may not resonate with others here as we are all different and that in a and of itself speaks to the concept of being non-binary. I had originally wanted to transition from male to female, but I came to the point mid-way into my transition somewhere about 7 - 10 years into it that I experienced a complete change of heart and began to realize that there was a place somewhere in between where I would be happy and it's where I really fit in. I'm married to the same woman now 45 years and we're still very much in love with each other. I am a combat veteran having been in the US army paratroops for two enlistments and fought in a war, so this should be an indication to you that there is something really legitimate here and that we are not freaks of nature after all.
Bad word, freak. Used to hurt. Not criticizing Shantel here.
There is one thing that will create anger quickly among those of us who are trans, and that is the invalidating our our gender identities. Be aware of this please.
You see my profile.... I have no diagnosis, only non binary, and I have one of the best shrinks in the country. It cannot be put into a box or a category. It simply is. And then, we learn to free ourselves. We discover who we are, and we celebrate it. No box, no concern over cis understanding, we are concerned with the truth of who we are. Not a distortion. The truth. That may seem strange for a Cis to understand, but nevertheless, it is the reality of who we are.
See if you can free yourself too. Certainly from binary thought processes. It would be hard, you see one paradyne all your life, you have to go outside yourself and your comfort zone, and look within. You may be happier. You may be more open to the unique. This is a place of the unique.
Confrontation is painful to me. So are so called negative emotions. I need to go now.
Watch the triggers everyone. They are here.
SJ.
Sorry. I just think it is unnecessary suffering. Not a revelation, not a visionary power, a punishment. It is possible to enjoy gender diversity without doubting your own gender identity, and identity in general. Nobody should be put through the misery you're going through. I don't know why you've been given this terrible gift, maybe there is a reason. Satinjoy, Shantel :-*
I m maybe wrong but in a way i feel that when you get both you nullify or reduce one or the other when you get closer to 50/50 than 80/20 , the 80 is lessened but the 20 grew , and from the perspectiveof the 80 its for sure reduced , and i believe some peoples prefer being in a particuar percentage of each, while some others are more fluid about it .
And at the same time i m not sure it nullify in a way either because it can help one "side" to grow when the other one is present or more present if they make a dance and if x was wich the percentage were based on can become 2x
But but i m just speculating :x i dont consider myself non binary or androgynous and i actually like to be on one side of the one dimentional thing , altough its a bit unconvenient at time .
Opning our minds is not always easy either i think , it can confront to many unpleasant things
but pleaseant too i believe.
Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 06:19:51 PM
Sorry. I just think it is unnecessary suffering. Not a revelation, not a visionary power, a punishment. It is possible to enjoy gender diversity without doubting your own gender identity, and identity in general. Nobody should be put through the misery you're going through. I don't know why you've been given this terrible gift, maybe there is a reason. Satinjoy, Shantel :-*
Oh my...
That is what you got out of this discussion..?
I hope this topic can be closed / locked soon...!
I can feel this harming my friends here now...
Its not right that someone who shows so little concern with our feelings be allowed to bring such discontent and negativity here...
I'll stop myself then. I see whatever I ask or say will cause pain and discomfort.
Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 07:00:22 PM
I'll stop myself then. I see whatever I ask or say will cause pain and discomfort.
Go then, be warmed and be filled and may God bless you!
Orie
Discomfort is always experienced when the existing model or paradigm is questioned, critiqued, rejected and invalidated. This is the natural order. We learn, we grow. I don't criticize your view. You are just at an early stage in your thinking, discovery and journey
This happened with flat earth believers, earth centric models of the universe, Newtonian mechanics and creationism. If your model works for you and it helps you understand yourself and others, then enjoy. It's just that we have moved well beyond your current paradigm
Safe travels
Aisla
Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 06:19:51 PM
Sorry. I just think it is unnecessary suffering. Not a revelation, not a visionary power, a punishment. It is possible to enjoy gender diversity without doubting your own gender identity, and identity in general. Nobody should be put through the misery you're going through. I don't know why you've been given this terrible gift, maybe there is a reason. Satinjoy, Shantel :-*
Suffering? Living in the binary world caused me suffering. Being honest to myself about my gender identity was freedom. Being able to be honest to the world is priceless. Like Shantel, I started this journey thinking a strict binary transition was in my future. As I transitioned and got to know myself better, I realised that I'd gotten to a point where I was content. Oops, seem to have missed the binary. Oh well, no big deal, I'm happy.
Quote from: Aisla on September 15, 2014, 07:10:41 PM
Orie
Discomfort is always experienced when the existing model or paradigm is questioned, critiqued, rejected and invalidated. This is the natural order. We learn, we grow. I don't criticize your view. You are just at an early stage in your thinking, discovery and journey
This happened with flat earth believers, earth centric models of the universe, Newtonian mechanics and creationism. If your model works for you and it helps you understand yourself and others, then enjoy. It's just that we have moved well beyond your current paradigm
Safe travels
Aisla
Well, I'm sorry, with all due respect, but I have to react here, despite my promise, for I strongly disagree. Is this necessary, this air or superiority, this visionary promise for the mankind? There is no discovery to be made here, there is no new paradigm. We all operate in the same paradigm, we're all juggling with the same two balls, the male and the female, all tapping from the same two sources, only to a varying degree. All unorthodox gender expressions define themselves in relation (positive and negative) to the male and the female. There is no escape from this fact. We're all trapped in this world on the same conditions.
Rant over.
Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 07:42:23 PM
Well, I'm sorry, with all due respect, but I have to react here, despite my promise, for I strongly disagree. Is this necessary, this air or superiority, this visionary promise for the mankind? There is no discovery to be made here, there is no new paradigm. We all operate in the same paradigm, we're all juggling with the same two balls, the male and the female, all tapping from the same two sources, only to a varying degree. All unorthodox gender expressions define themselves in relation (positive and negative) to the male and the female. There is no escape from this fact. We're all trapped in this world on the same conditions.
Rant over.
What is male?
What is female?
"Unorthodox gender expressions" really only define themselves in relation to male and female because we are forced to.
I got no sense of superiority from Aisla's post, just a straightforward description of what can happen when a paradigm changes - and it gives some examples.
Quote from: kelly_aus on September 15, 2014, 07:55:57 PM
What is male?
What is female?
"Unorthodox gender expressions" really only define themselves in relation to male and female because we are forced to.
I got no sense of superiority from Aisla's post, just a straightforward description of what can happen when a paradigm changes - and it gives some examples.
Forced by? I bet your answer is by society:)
But the fact is, the absolute majority of people are absolutely comfortable with their gender and are not forced by anyone or anything to accept it
and at the same time they allow themselves a lot of freedom of gender expression. There is no built-in tension here.
I kind of feel like I'm stating that all people have two legs and you counter this by insisting that some of them have one or none.
Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 08:14:02 PM
Forced by? I bet your answer is by society:)
But the fact is, the absolute majority of people are absolutely comfortable with their gender and are not forced by anyone or anything to accept it and at the same time they allow themselves a lot of freedom of gender expression. There is no built-in tension here.
I kind of feel like I'm stating that all people have two legs and you counter this by insisting that some of them have one or none.
Well, if society would step outside it's binary for a moment, perhaps I could explain. But no, I'm forced to explain myself in terms of male and female. I find, generally, that society has no real issues with how I present myself. Individuals, however, frequently feel free to be dismissive of my identity - mostly because they cannot understand it.
As Aisla pointed out, humans views on things that were considered fact in the past have changed. We are simply on the leading edge of a new change, one that is also being acknowledged by the medical and wider science community.
Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 07:42:23 PM
Is this necessary, this air or superiority, this visionary promise for the mankind? There is no discovery to be made here, there is no new paradigm. We all operate in the same paradigm, we're all juggling with the same two balls, the male and the female, all tapping from the same two sources, only to a varying degree.
It sounds as though you trying to correct our misguided beliefs, trying to bring us all down to your level of understanding, so you can relate to how we think, feel, and see our world..
I'm so sorry that you can't experience what we experience, thus you refuse to even consider it a possibility.?
When I feel the gender that is me, I don't feel part male and part female, I feel unique to those labels, something that is beyond the interpretation you suggest, something that has no name, and needs no name.. It is a form of freedom that I've never felt, and perhaps you will never know how it feels, but please don't try and demean our beliefs and real life experiences by trying to tell us they don't exist, or we are being somehow punished...
Everyone here has been very caring towards you and tried in every way, till we are blue in the face from trying and re trying, but it seems all has fallen on deaf ears..?
I don't know what else to do or say...?
I have to get away from this topic now...
Take care..
Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 07:42:23 PM
Well, I'm sorry, with all due respect, but I have to react here, despite my promise, for I strongly disagree. Is this necessary, this air or superiority, this visionary promise for the mankind? There is no discovery to be made here, there is no new paradigm. We all operate in the same paradigm, we're all juggling with the same two balls, the male and the female, all tapping from the same two sources, only to a varying degree. All unorthodox gender expressions define themselves in relation (positive and negative) to the male and the female. There is no escape from this fact. We're all trapped in this world on the same conditions.
Rant over.
Sorry orie, but what you think is correct is only your imagination that has gone in the same stupid direction for a long time.
The cis world is ignorant and hate filled for anyone who is different, who says they are different.
You simply don't get that you are so completely wrong about what you think when it comes to gender that you really have nothing of any importance to us.
It was explained, you missed the point, like someone who walks into a wall every time they try to leave the room.
It is you who doesn't have a gender, it is a made up set of rules that the cis live by to compensate for the fact that they cannot understand it, comprehend the reality of what gender is.
There is nothing wrong with us, but we have terrible things happen to us all the time because of the cis views about gender.
The terrible gift is the one you send us every day in the way you treat trans people.
I'll put it in the way I hear so often when I listen to cis people.
You're worthless and are not wanted.
This is the 'terrible gift', right back atcha...
We got it from you.
Ativan
Quote from: orie on September 15, 2014, 06:19:51 PM
Sorry. I just think it is unnecessary suffering. Not a revelation, not a visionary power, a punishment. It is possible to enjoy gender diversity without doubting your own gender identity, and identity in general. Nobody should be put through the misery you're going through. I don't know why you've been given this terrible gift, maybe there is a reason.
I disagree.
Non-binary is having freedom - being cis is equivalent to punishment because whether you like it or not, society loves to slot you into little boxes.
Being raised as a cis-female was one of the most painful experiences of my life - going through puberty, the freedom I had as a child was taken away from me, I had pressures, standards and rules forced upon me due to the biological sex I was born as. Isn't that so terribly silly?
I had these expectations thrust upon me - that if I did not like my female body, if I did not like the idea of becoming pregnant or having children of my own, if I did not like the idea of having sex, if I did not like long hair... then I would be looked at weirdly - even more so if I did not act like a stereotypical tomboy and/or lesbian. Don't like stereotypical female stuff? Well, you MUST be a tomboy or a lesbian! Don't like stereotypical masculine activities... then what on earth ARE you? You must just a confused woman, don't worry, one day, you will grow up and have children like everyone else!
These damaging "rules" caused me anguish for over six years. It is not imagined, it is
very real. Please do not mock people's experiences or tell them what they are wrong. It is rude.
It was also this rigid binary thinking that made me realize, "Well, if I am unhappy being a female, what about being a male?" Because at the time, society continued to persist that there is only MALE or FEMALE, I had no idea that you could exist outside the binary entirely. I had convinced myself that I was a man. Four years on Testosterone, it came to my attention that passing or identifying as a man does not make me happy. I realized I originally wanted my female breasts and genitals removed - this did not mean I actually wanted a male body as I previously thought, oh no, I desire a genderless body.
I rejected being both female and male because I cannot identify with either binary. Where does that leave me?
Non-Binary. It gives me the freedom to express however I want. If I want to wear a button-up, flannel shirt with a pink tutu and knee-high boots, I will wear it with pride and not give a hoot what anyone thinks!
Struggling with gender identity is never a punishment, it is a path to a greater self-awareness. I'm sorry you cannot see it that way.
Quote from: Aisla on September 15, 2014, 07:10:41 PM
Discomfort is always experienced when the existing model or paradigm is questioned, critiqued, rejected and invalidated.
This hasn't been true for me at all. Maybe that's because I often don't subscribe to the popular view. But even when my own views are questioned or challenged, I don't necessarily feel discomfort. I like inquiry, exploration, discussion, an exchange of ideas. I like to change, grow, evolve. I certainly can't be the only one like this.
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