So a few days ago on the "transgender support" page on facebook a young trans girl, guessing a teenager, came in and started ranting about how ugly and manlike trans women on the page are. It astounded me how much transphobia this girl has towards her own community. It's an online support group where we are trying to find support and some happiness in our lives. I find that there are some people obsessed with passing, whole sites that tell us passing and going stealth is the key to happiness in our lives. It's frustrating to see such views that some hold. What is most important is that we are happy with ourselves inside and out, it just hurts to see that some people have such views about their own community.
Quote from: Riley Skye on September 17, 2014, 12:37:39 PM
So a few days ago on the "transgender support" page on facebook a young trans girl, guessing a teenager, came in and started ranting about how ugly and manlike trans women on the page are. It astounded me how much transphobia this girl has towards her own community. It's an online support group where we are trying to find support and some happiness in our lives. I find that there are some people obsessed with passing, whole sites that tell us passing and going stealth is the key to happiness in our lives. It's frustrating to see such views that some hold. What is most important is that we are happy with ourselves inside and out, it just hurts to see that some people have such views about their own community.
I've come across similar sentiments from members of this site as well. I think there are a lot of people who assume other people have the same priorities they do.
I'm especially resistant to using the words "ugly" and "manlike" together. I know many women, both cis and trans, who have features that might be called manlike but who are very beautiful.
Such is pretty common still unfortunately. It isn't only online either a lot of people have the nerve to try and tear down others in day to day lives. But on this case to go through the trouble to actually do this shows that the person that did this is either very ignorant or trying to express anger about their own personal problems by showing people their problems.
Which if it was the second one then why go to a support group? That's like going to a AA meeting and bringing up their problem (and the person that walks in doesn't drink). I honestly hate transphobia I deal with it a lot myself due to the area I'm in. So the fact that she did that is kind of sad. I hope that she was shut down quickly before she could hurt others. (Also sorry for ranting a bit lol)
And on the passing thing the only reason I would ever want it is due to I hate being treated as a guy and hearing male pronouns. I'm already secure about knowing what I am. Although I know some are not and I understand the pain. But there are some that endure much more than I do and I wish I could help them. I believe acceptance to be one of the hardest stages.
I do think we have to be realistic about our transitions. And though someone may not pass well they deserve to be and can very well find happiness. I believe it is the transphobia that so many of us held comes out when we are transitioning.
Interesting. I had the reverse experience back in 1999. I was at a support group and were told to shut up and stop complaining about my problems because I suerely would have none that are as severe as the one of the others, because I was young and "passed" well. I thought at times that some of the people there had it hard and I felt sorry for them as they had probably little chance of really "passing", but I think I was not arrogant. I knew it was not their fault or anything. I would have liked to suggest to some of them to do some things differently to improve their normalness (less colorful makeup. no Miniskirts and Heels as everyday fashion unless they look good in them), but they did not want to hear from someone who does not have the same problems as they do.
I guess the times are different now and the young people are getting arrogant.
I've had to go through a massive reassessment of my attitude over the past year. Being judgemental is a human trait, sometimes useful but often self serving and founded in arrogance - it is never constructive when the latter and I would dish it out in spades (fortunately never aloud, just in my head). The way I see it, with that person you mention and others with the same mindset as her, is that they cannot see that another trans person is someone who identifies as a particular gender but who has been born into a body with the wrong sexual characteristics. Rather than feeling empathy for that person they focus on the physical characteristics the person has and gets all judgemental about it. "You look like a man, you can't be a woman" and other such appalling nonsense - it is a variation of the "you're a 'man' you can't be a woman" argument that cis normative society spews.
Sometimes I feel like I might be a catty b----. I get these kind of thoughts at times about some trans people, and then I get to know them and feel so guilty and upset at myself. I think the thought process for most like that is that the "dream" is to be passable and beautiful, and then to see someone who doesn't fit the image of what they see as an ideal transition they lash out. I think it's just continued denial like, "I may be trans, but I'm not like that." It's terrible to think like that, but I find myself far more accepting of others as I become more accepting of myself for who I am.
It is truly sad that there are people in our community like this. We all got dealt a pretty crappy hand, and we must all play the one we were dealt the best we can. It is too bad that someone who got that lucky on the outside is so rotten inside.
I'm living my life the way I want to now and am the happiest I have ever been. I don't really care how "manly" I look to others, whether or not I "pass" nor if I can live "stealth". I am moving forward and being true to myself, and that's all that matters.
It seems somebody missed the point of transition entirely.
Quote from: paula lesley on September 17, 2014, 02:38:14 PM
It is just an age thing. The young do not wish to be old and the old just wish ;)
Why is it that youth seems to be entirely wasted upon the young? Perspective...
Quote from: Jill F on September 17, 2014, 02:49:59 PM
Why is it that youth seems to be entirely wasted upon the young? Perspective...
Because we don't have wisdom and are really angsty.
I also believe the whole situation come from societies transphobie. I believe these people believe that beauty is the key to life and can't imagine being non-passable.
Quote from: Jill F on September 17, 2014, 02:49:59 PM
Why is it that youth seems to be entirely wasted upon the young? Perspective...
well. if I have an eternal soul I'm either too young or too old you just can't win
Quote from: Riley Skye on September 17, 2014, 02:53:11 PM
Because we don't have wisdom and are really angsty.
I also believe the whole situation come from societies transphobie. I believe these people believe that beauty is the key to life and can't imagine being non-passable.
I have encountered plenty of transwomen who couldn't pass to save their lives, but were content nonetheless. It's still a massive improvement as far as quality of life goes.
Quote from: paula lesley on September 17, 2014, 02:38:14 PM
It is just an age thing. The young do not wish to be old and the old just wish ;)
Well, being ugly and old, the only thing I wish for is for the youngins to mind their p's and q's....
I totally understand this; I stopped all involvement with a local trans support group because of the leader doubling-down on this. She directly misgendered trans women whom she felt were not "trying hard enough" to be feminine and, when I called her on it, defended doing so.
Quote from: Agent_J on September 17, 2014, 03:05:30 PM
I totally understand this; I stopped all involvement with a local trans support group because of the leader doubling-down on this. She directly misgendered trans women whom she felt were not "trying hard enough" to be feminine and, when I called her on it, defended doing so.
WTF? That's "support"!? Some of us are very fragile, if not already completely broken. Could she live with herself if she ever sent someone over the edge?
Quote from: Agent_J on September 17, 2014, 03:05:30 PM
I totally understand this; I stopped all involvement with a local trans support group because of the leader doubling-down on this. She directly misgendered trans women whom she felt were not "trying hard enough" to be feminine and, when I called her on it, defended doing so.
Yikes, I think I would have told her what to do with that "support" in short order.
The trans group I tried out mostly just seemed to want to talk about sex, which really doesn't interest me, so I quit messing with it. Plus the snacks were just too vegetarian for me...
Do you know what's amusing here? Really really amusing and funny?
I suggest anyone really fixated about passing go to a busy mall, sit down, and just watch. Watch the women going by. And not just the young women. Look at the middle aged women. Look at the older women.
If you're honest with yourself, you see a lot of middle aged and older women who look a bit more masculine. And because of this, an older transwoman can actually pass more readily than a younger one.
Now, to be honest, there's a lot to be said for personal presentation.
Here's a photo of me from just the other night, out with my daughter. I was not misgendered once. Nobody stared. Nobody even gave us a second glance. But I wasn't wearing a hot pink miniskirt, bright pink lipstick, or had size DDDDD breast forms either (just my natural A cups).
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com%2F2014%2F09%2Fbirthday-2014-1.jpg%3Fw%3D225%26amp%3Bh%3D300&hash=1680bac6d3363d5c27d65afeeea5583f8682a497)
But a middle aged to late middle aged transwoman has tons more leeway than younger transwomen, who are being directly compared to fresh young vixens at the top of their biological game. Now some of our younger sisters pull this off in spades. There are some amazingly beautiful younger transwomen. But those who don't feel they belong on the Miss Universe stage need to give themselves a break too.
So just stop with the worries and go sit down in a busy shopping mall and watch. Watch all the shapes and sizes, all the women who've got the entire package and all those who don't. And just realize that you fit on that same spectrum and it's ok.
Quote from: LizMarie on September 17, 2014, 03:23:34 PM
Do you know what's amusing here? Really really amusing and funny?
I suggest anyone really fixated about passing go to a busy mall, sit down, and just watch. Watch the women going by. And not just the young women. Look at the middle aged women. Look at the older women.
If you're honest with yourself, you see a lot of middle aged and older women who look a bit more masculine. And because of this, an older transwoman can actually pass more readily than a younger one.
Now, to be honest, there's a lot to be said for personal presentation.
Here's a photo of me from just the other night, out with my daughter. I was not misgendered once. Nobody stared. Nobody even gave us a second glance. But I wasn't wearing a hot pink miniskirt, bright pink lipstick, or had size DDDDD breast forms either (just my natural A cups).
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com%2F2014%2F09%2Fbirthday-2014-1.jpg%3Fw%3D225%26amp%3Bh%3D300&hash=1680bac6d3363d5c27d65afeeea5583f8682a497)
But a middle aged to late middle aged transwoman has tons more leeway than younger transwomen, who are being directly compared to fresh young vixens at the top of their biological game. Now some of our younger sisters pull this off in spades. There are some amazingly beautiful younger transwomen. But those who don't feel they belong on the Miss Universe stage need to give themselves a break too.
So just stop with the worries and go sit down in a busy shopping mall and watch. Watch all the shapes and sizes, all the women who've got the entire package and all those who don't. And just realize that you fit on that same spectrum and it's ok.
so, where are you?
That was exactly it for me. It was why I rejected the entire "you need to be wearing skirts and dresses every day" business - 99% of the women around me don't meet that stricture so why should I?
Quote from: Agent_J on September 17, 2014, 03:47:55 PM
That was exactly it for me. It was why I rejected the entire "you need to be wearing skirts and dresses every day" business - 99% of the women around me don't meet that stricture so why should I?
My cis wife almost never wears skirts or dresses.
Quote from: stephaniec on September 17, 2014, 02:59:05 PM
well. if I have an eternal soul I'm either too young or too old you just can't win
Stephanie I love the new avatar!
i am not so sure about the age thing. I have the comparison ;) - At age 24 or 26, I did not draw a lot of attention. I think I passed fairly well - well enough to even be in a radical feminists group that had some transphobe history. Now I am almost 40 and I was asked several times in the past 2 years, if I was trans or "a guy". This annoyed me ehough to now work on getting information on voice and facial surgeries.
Maybe it was not age but just the decades it was happening in. 1990ies versus 2010's - but i think for the younger ones it is similar as to middle aged women - there are plenty of other women out there that are far from perfect as well.
But I so would leave a support group in which I was told I have to do this or that or have to pass better or be misgendered by them. Awful...
Quote from: Jill F on September 17, 2014, 03:51:23 PM
My cis wife almost never wears skirts or dresses.
Same here. My also cis wife rides motorcycles and works in IT, too, which have been other "not woman enough" criticisms from other trans people.
Some people find support in putting others beneath them. Bullies with poor self confidence.
Quote from: LizMarie on September 17, 2014, 03:23:34 PM
But a middle aged to late middle aged transwoman has tons more leeway than younger transwomen, who are being directly compared to fresh young vixens at the top of their biological game.
This. It's difficult to really weigh the impact of having such a high standard to measure up to unless that's where you actually are. What may be passable for an older woman may lead to misgendering for someone younger.
It's one reason why I don't like the term "passing" at all, because it seems so often to go hand in hand with a bunch of assumptions - it's the same as "beautiful," it's the goal everyone should want [and I've run into those same people who assume their goals = everyone's], it's conforming with extremely stereotypical gender roles, etc.
LizMarie, you're so right; I've sometimes been grateful that I'm not being judged by the standards of a 22-year-old cis girl. I may not like my looks much, but I blend in just fine with cis women my age, which is *my* goal. (Because I'm shy and HATE standing out, not b/c I'm obsessed with being perceived as "not trans" per se.) I *wish* I looked like the college girls I see around me... but I don't wish other people judged me the way they do those girls, if that makes sense. My personal hope was to be able to go out in jeans and a T-shirt and my old combat boots and no makeup, and blend in with the crowd of women. So long as that's possible, I'm content.
Quote from: ImagineKate on September 17, 2014, 03:56:14 PM
Stephanie I love the new avatar!
thanks, I look a little plump though
Quote from: stephaniec on September 17, 2014, 07:58:26 PM
thanks, I look a little plump though
That's OK, you look like your smiling. :)
"Passing arrogance"
yep its a problem. Unfortunately a problem I have.
I hate to admit it but I personally feel very self conscious when I am with other transpeople, especially those who do not "pass." It makes me feel "guilty by association."
Now downright bullying people or openly expression your negative views to those who are already in a fragile state of mine? I am certainly not that vile and find it sad that others, especially those of the same background, can reach such lows.
If there is one thing I have noticed in my 20 odd years in this world its that people who bully others have severe problems of their own.
Quote from: Riley Skye on September 17, 2014, 12:53:51 PM
I do think we have to be realistic about our transitions. And though someone may not pass well they deserve to be and can very well find happiness. I believe it is the transphobia that so many of us held comes out when we are transitioning.
This is pretty much my view.
It's one thing to be realistic about oneself it is another to voice your perceptions about another if they are negative.
Personally I think the language and behavior of this teenager are utterly inexcusable if she were my daughter I would be having a long talk with her.
When I began the long road to looking and feeling female I realised something I didn't like about myself, because I wanted so much to be perceived a certain way by those around me I became acutely aware of how I was judging others as I passed them or saw them.
I mentally kick myself now if I so much as raise an eyebrow at ANY lifestyle/appearance choices people make, it doesn't matter what it is I refuse to treat anyone differently, either to their face or in the privacy of my own mind.
I will always treat any kind of guy (including any stage of FtM who I consider to be guys anyway) as a guy.
I will always treat any kind of teenager with respect and as an adult, mainly because they respond so well to it.
I think Master Bill S. Preston Esquire and Mister Ted Theodore Logan, said it best.
'Be excellent to each other'
Quote from: stephaniec on September 17, 2014, 03:32:06 PM
so, where are you?
Stephanie, I am 57 years old, though I've been told I look a bit younger than that. But regardless, I'm going to get seen as a middle aged or late middle aged woman. And I seem to be doing ok.
Quote from: missy1992 on September 17, 2014, 09:09:57 PM
"Passing arrogance"
yep its a problem. Unfortunately a problem I have.
I hate to admit it but I personally feel very self conscious when I am with other transpeople, especially those who do not "pass." It makes me feel "guilty by association."
Yes, I have to admit to that too. I feel that I get stared at and analyzed a lot more often when I do that and I dont like it. But I know it is not nice to feel that way, but there it is. I tend to avoid being around trans people then as a result.
I have noticed this, but I really haven't bothered too much as I am glad to see people happy. I don't like to see people put down others though.
I'll also say that there seems to be a lot of emphasis in the trans community on young transitioners. While this is helpful in that they can benefit the most, I feel that a lot of older transitioners need the help more because they (we) have a lot more challenges to overcome since male puberty has severely damaged us already.
POSSIBLE TRIGGER WARNING
There's also something really bizarre that I noticed with one trans friend (who really isn't a friend anymore).
When she identified as he, he would call out trans women all the time, out them and mock them. (Apologies in advance for the pronouns but I feel it puts it in context, because he did not identify as she in public yet.) This was on some other online forums I participate in, as well as conversations we've had. He would even mockingly call one of them "a boy named Sue." There was another transwoman who joined up the forum and he immediately got on her case, even going so far as to stalk her to find out her past... when he found out her past, he immediately threw it in her face and started going ballistic.
Then one day she came out to all of us as being trans. It was a shock but I was supportive and happy for her. I also thought to myself that maybe she was trying to live in denial and do it by bringing down others. Yeah, she can be twisted and sick like that. But I was happy for her that she could find herself, despite being the nasty person she is. Then I just got fed up because she kept attacking me and I just basically started ignoring her.
Human nature is to try to step on people and make yourself appear to be better than them. It's a sad part of human nature but it is what it is.
That said, I try to surround myself with people who don't bring me down.
Quote from: Jill F on September 17, 2014, 02:49:59 PM
Why is it that youth seems to be entirely wasted upon the young? Perspective...
In my experience there are jerks at every age. I'm 52 and I know a lot of very good people my age but I also know quite a few people who are just mean,nasty, egotistical narcissists.
Take care,
Paige :)
I think I've certainly been guilty of internally judging the looks of other trans women, but those are my thoughts, they are often human nature, an instant reaction rather than logical evaluation, and I would never ever air those thoughts. Support groups especially should be a safe place where looks are off the table as far as discussion goes. Same goes for here; outside the threads asking for critique (which are actually always honest but fair and constructive) then we should be supporting each other.
Now for me, personally, passing does matter, to me. I don't have the confidence to do the whole 'screw society and it's outdated mindsets' thing (although I applaud those that do), I just want to blend in and live my life. Whether someone else passes or not doesn't change how much respect or tolerance I show them; if someone presents as a woman, I'll treat them as such. But it would, I'm ashamed to say, affect the chances of me hanging out with that person. I don't really mean people who nearly pass but just don't quite, because I've met some trans women who don't 100% pass but just look great. I mean some of the older transitioners who dress inappropriately and look and sound a long way from female. Like I said, I'll still treat them with respect, but I have found myself turning down an invitation to ride the night bus through the city with such a lady, simply because I didn't want to be in a position where I could become a target. It is a reflection of my own insecurity and it's really not something I'm proud of, but its taken me a long time to get to being able to have any confidence in public so perhaps I still have some personal growth to come.
There's another point that's been made on this thread that I do have strong feelings about, and that's the 'you're not feminine enough' argument. I wear jeans 98% of the time, usually just with trainers. I ride a motorcycle, and I like football (soccer) and violent video games. I get really annoyed when other trans women feel that they can pass judgement on this and try to tell me that I should be smiling all the time, or gliding gracefully into rooms. It's an outdated and frankly strange version of womanhood. And some trans women do come across as strange pastiches of what they think a woman should be. I'll never say anything to them, I'll even smile politely when they do suggest I wear heels more (or, as one support group member actually said to me once, that I should hold back on expressing strong opinions in public) but it really p***es me off. I am me, and I started this process so I could live a life true to myself, not to fit in with someone else's expectations of who I should be or how I should act or dress.
Usually when I work with teenagers it requires a lot of selective hearing. Understand they are a year or two removed from being children, they'll be quite different people in college and drastically different as adults.
Quote from: Squircle on September 18, 2014, 02:52:31 PM
There's another point that's been made on this thread that I do have strong feelings about, and that's the 'you're not feminine enough' argument. I wear jeans 98% of the time, usually just with trainers. I ride a motorcycle, and I like football (soccer) and violent video games. I get really annoyed when other trans women feel that they can pass judgement on this and try to tell me that I should be smiling all the time, or gliding gracefully into rooms. It's an outdated and frankly strange version of womanhood. And some trans women do come across as strange pastiches of what they think a woman should be. I'll never say anything to them, I'll even smile politely when they do suggest I wear heels more (or, as one support group member actually said to me once, that I should hold back on expressing strong opinions in public) but it really p***es me off. I am me, and I started this process so I could live a life true to myself, not to fit in with someone else's expectations of who I should be or how I should act or dress.
I really love this point Squircle. The days are long gone where being trans is defined by you acting and dressing a certain way. As you said, it's about being yourself in whatever flavour you choose.
Cheers,
Paige :)
Quote from: Riley Skye on September 17, 2014, 12:37:39 PM
So a few days ago on the "transgender support" page on facebook a young trans girl, guessing a teenager, came in and started ranting about how ugly and manlike trans women on the page are. It astounded me how much transphobia this girl has towards her own community. It's an online support group where we are trying to find support and some happiness in our lives. I find that there are some people obsessed with passing, whole sites that tell us passing and going stealth is the key to happiness in our lives. It's frustrating to see such views that some hold. What is most important is that we are happy with ourselves inside and out, it just hurts to see that some people have such views about their own community.
Really? A young transgirl on
facebook ranting about how ugly and manlike trans women? Nothing about passable? Or un passable? Sorry Riley. But please don't feed the trolls. Anybody or anyone can be anything on the internet. I could be a 300 pound gorilla that learned how to type sitting in my mamma's basement with a Cheetos fingerprinted T shirt and sitting in my whitey tighties just to PO everyone here at susans off. :-\
But big ol' bears, don't take offense. I love bears BTW. God... Never mind. I won't even go there but the contrast between smooth skin and hairy. :embarrassed:
The truth is I am a MTF non binary but becoming more binary MTF sitting in cutoff shorts and tank top drinking a little Port wine, listening to Black Sabbath's 13 album trying to make you see that I can be who I wanna' be on the internet. The last part is true though but seriously I am Cindy Crawford just making fun of everyone here that is transgendered. I don't think she would but see how easy it is to be who you wanna' be? But seriously I am Cindy Crawford listening to Black Sabbath's 13, I wish. :P
But seriously Riley. This whole post was leading to a point and that point is never let anyone bring you down or focus our mind off the prize. that Prize is up to you. If I was to walk into a club, male or female, I would send a drink you way. Whether I was male of female at the time. Don't let other people bring you down. There are way too many idiots on the internet.
As for me I am who I am, and I present as how I feel: a middle aged woman who is still very young at heart with all her faults and fears, and her positive traits as well. The good and the bad equalizing me into normality. And so far who I am and how I present seems to work pretty good. I don't like the term "passing" either, but somehow I do so quite well. I also don't associate with other people trans or cis based on their appearance, nor am I afraid to be seen with any transwoman no matter what she looks like for fear of being outed. So far it hasn't happened but if it does it does. I base my friendship with someone on the person they are inside. Not their looks.
Having said that, I am after all human and I do have a few friends that may never pass, and I'm ashamed to even admit of thinking this in my mind. I would never openly voice these opinions though for that would just be plain rude, and I'm very very not that type of person. I have one friend who asks me for help from time to time picking out outfits and makeup, and I'm very happy to help her and anyone I can. I have another friend who I don't get to see often enough, who dresses kind of flamboyantly for a woman of her age but she's happy and fun to hang around with. As long as she's happy and content with herself I'm happy for her.
Basically I am me and I am happy. Passing for me is just icing on a much larger layer cake. I hope this doesn't make me "passing arrogant."
Peace everyone. :icon_bunch:
Ally :icon_flower:
Quote from: Allyda on September 18, 2014, 09:34:00 PM
As for me I am who I am, and I present as how I feel: a middle aged woman who is still very young at heart with all her faults and fears, and her positive traits as well. The good and the bad equalizing me into normality. And so far who I am and how I present seems to work pretty good. I don't like the term "passing" either, but somehow I do so quite well. I also don't associate with other people trans or cis based on their appearance, nor am I afraid to be seen with any transwoman no matter what she looks like for fear of being outed. So far it hasn't happened but if it does it does. I base my friendship with someone on the person they are inside. Not their looks.
Having said that, I am after all human and I do have a few friends that may never pass, and I'm ashamed to even admit of thinking this in my mind. I would never openly voice these opinions though for that would just be plain rude, and I'm very very not that type of person. I have one friend who asks me for help from time to time picking out outfits and makeup, and I'm very happy to help her and anyone I can. I have another friend who I don't get to see often enough, who dresses kind of flamboyantly for a woman of her age but she's happy and fun to hang around with. As long as she's happy and content with herself I'm happy for her.
Basically I am me and I am happy. Passing for me is just icing on a much larger layer cake. I hope this doesn't make me "passing arrogant."
Peace everyone. :icon_bunch:
Ally :icon_flower:
Just eat the cake an enjoy the icing Ally. I have been looking around and I have been into the city today and will be tomorrow and you may be surprised at who can pass and who can't. I have seen women, cis women that look more manly than you or me. Just sayin'.
Hi,
Well if this person is real to start with then have a go at myself , and see who will still be the stronger of the two of us, See what is said about an intersexed female ,
try self confident self assured and confidence to stand in front of over , 3 Million people and give talks to many other 100,s 1000s, of people be well known and accepted for who i am as a person first and as a normal female,
i sure dont look female enough to pass or blend in let alone a pretty looking female and as a woman ,
Each of us has detail about us that makes us who we are , What i find the ones who lash out seem to not have much going for them selfs wheres their self esteem are they happy in them selfs or do they have issues they cant work through ,
so to lash out is their way of dealing with and making them selfs look better or they hide behind their own disabilitys lack of self worth and no self esteem ,
All so many females who are natal born are like my self dont look all that female looking woman , yet they like myself still female, maybe this person has a very narrow minded eye sight, and does not see what is real and part of real life,
If you happen to see this person again you can take what i,v said here and use it if youd like to , and its from myself
noeleena, Loch-head, from NZ,,
...noeleena...
I guess I'm lucky since I was fairly passable even before HRT at 34 but I did get some interesting insights from my local community.
First of all in any conversation I had with other trans girls about passing and "accepting places to go" I'm always told "you don't count"
Secondly I got told up front that since I was transitioning and able to pass I should not be hanging around the trans community since it would "tarnish my reputation"
Thirdly other trans girls assume that it's all just genetic, granted some is but it's a ->-bleeped-<- load of work, physical exercise, voice training, hair removal of all kinds, makeup, mannerisms, etc
I'm proud to walk down any street or any mall with my trans friends no matter how passable or non binary they are but I do expect them to put some effort in and be sensible, if they insist on wearing mini skirts that are inappropriate or for that matter a leather fetish suit I might not join them for another stroll through a public place but I think that goes for any friend of mine trans or not.
Quote from: antonia on September 18, 2014, 11:09:34 PM
I guess I'm lucky since I was fairly passable even before HRT at 34 but I did get some interesting insights from my local community.
First of all in any conversation I had with other trans girls about passing and "accepting places to go" I'm always told "you don't count"
Secondly I got told up front that since I was transitioning and able to pass I should not be hanging around the trans community since it would "tarnish my reputation"
Thirdly other trans girls assume that it's all just genetic, granted some is but it's a ->-bleeped-<- load of work, physical exercise, voice training, hair removal of all kinds, makeup, mannerisms, etc
I'm proud to walk down any street or any mall with my trans friends no matter how passable or non binary they are but I do expect them to put some effort in and be sensible, if they insist on wearing mini skirts that are inappropriate or for that matter a leather fetish suit I might not join them for another stroll through a public place but I think that goes for any friend of mine trans or not.
C'mon Antonia what fun is it not drawing attention? I really don't care what anyone wears. Usually I am the odd one out. But usually normally dressed though unless I am feeling kind of frisky maybe? It just all depends. before a gig I am to the nines. After I am a train wreck.
I'm not saying that the mini skirt and 4" heels don't have a place, I just don't think that place is a downtown shopping mall at 4PM, 10PM at a drag club and who cares but ......
I have friends who do not pass, nor do they try to pass.
One of them looks like a man with boobs. Sorry to be so blunt but it paints the best picture. She doesn't really dress feminine either and she is really overweight.
Another looks really feminine and would pass visually but her voice is deep. She's a college professor and I have no idea how she stands up in front of students and teaches every day in that voice. One person did ask whether she is a man or woman on professor review sites...
Would I hang out with them? I would and I do. I am not ashamed. Why? They are braver than me. I admire their courage.
But I wish that for their own sake they'd take better care of themselves. The obesity in particular is a problem and I'd hate for them to die of some sort of disease early on. But I only think that way because I care. It's NOT about appearance, it's about health.
That said, I am going to do my BEST to pass. Why? It's just something I want. It would make me feel more whole and better about myself.
Quote from: Squircle on September 18, 2014, 02:52:31 PM
There's another point that's been made on this thread that I do have strong feelings about, and that's the 'you're not feminine enough' argument. I wear jeans 98% of the time, usually just with trainers. I ride a motorcycle, and I like football (soccer) and violent video games. I get really annoyed when other trans women feel that they can pass judgement on this and try to tell me that I should be smiling all the time, or gliding gracefully into rooms. It's an outdated and frankly strange version of womanhood. And some trans women do come across as strange pastiches of what they think a woman should be. I'll never say anything to them, I'll even smile politely when they do suggest I wear heels more (or, as one support group member actually said to me once, that I should hold back on expressing strong opinions in public) but it really p***es me off. I am me, and I started this process so I could live a life true to myself, not to fit in with someone else's expectations of who I should be or how I should act or dress.
My thoughts exactly. I spent my entire life wearing the mask of being male and I'm certainly not going to trade that in for a new mask based on what someone's idea is of what it means to be a trans women.
Hopefully as time goes on our community will be able to heal from our societally programmed internal transphobia.
I would like to add that even though I'm 49 going on 50, I'm very lucky I still look pretty good in short shorts/mini skirts and a halter or low cut tank top or sleeveless mini cut sun dress. And I do live in Florida after all and in this heat it just feels better and much cooler not wearing an overabundance of clothes. If I didn't have the figure for them, I wouldn't wear them. But I do and IMHO there's nothing wrong with it. However I'm usually wearing sandals with these outfits with modest heels. I don't break out the 4"+ heels unless where I'm going it's appropriate.
I due to unfortunate circumstances didn't get to enjoy my younger years as me, who I really am, so in my mind I'm very fortunate I still look good in skimpy outfits. So while I still got it I'm gonna enjoy it! I'm sincerely sorry if this attitude offends anyone. But there's nothing wrong with a 49 year old woman who still has the legs for it and still looks good showing it off a little.
I am picky about my outfits tho and wear colors that match and aren't flamboyantly bright, and aren't overly suggestive if you get the idea. Where I live I seem to blend in fine. Hell, my widowed neighbor friend is a couple of years older than me and she rocks short shorts and a bikini top! I don't wear stuff this revealing mind you, and save my bikini tops for the beach. But she's cis, 53, and looks great in them.
Ally ;)
I got accused of arrogance and passing privilege, not because I'm judgemental but because I dislike the term and believe that if you stop worrying about whether you're being perceived as female then you're more likely to be perceived as female. I think people instinctively pick up on nervousness, and if you spend your entire life worrying about how other people perceive you, then people do pick up on it. I think people mostly give the people they interact with casually on a day to day basis the benefit of the doubt - are they presenting as female? Then they're a woman. However if sense that the person their interacting with is nervous with no obvious reason, then they'll likely start trying to figure out why.
But apparently that little nugget of information is arrogant.
Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 19, 2014, 03:56:14 PM
I got accused of arrogance and passing privilege, not because I'm judgemental but because I dislike the term and believe that if you stop worrying about whether you're being perceived as female then you're more likely to be perceived as female. I think people instinctively pick up on nervousness, and if you spend your entire life worrying about how other people perceive you, then people do pick up on it. I think people mostly give the people they interact with casually on a day to day basis the benefit of the doubt - are they presenting as female? Then they're a woman. However if sense that the person their interacting with is nervous with no obvious reason, then they'll likely start trying to figure out why.
But apparently that little nugget of information is arrogant.
This is dead on. I was clocked left and right when my demeanor was "off" early on. The day I ran out of sh*ts to give about what anyone thought of me was the turning point for me, and all the pieces fell into place.
Seems to me that everyone has their own definition of arrogance, I guess that is no surprise. That doesn't sound arrogant to me Dread_Faery, it sounds like good advice.
The thread started talking about a t-girl who was purposely bad mouthing others simply because they didn't measure up to her standards, you can't help measuring people up sometimes, it's human nature, but the problem is if you broadcast your opinions in the wrong way.
For the record I 'pass' ok these days but if any of you girls out there wanna go for coffee in the York area I don't care what stage of your transition you are at or how you dress/identify I am totally up for some socialising/shopping/sightseeing!
One post to end them all:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVy7YeeqGZQ
Uhm... .... I wear minis, and I guess most of my clothing is quite revealing... I'm young, it looks good on me, and it's what I want to wear.. And guess what? I have great legs, so it'd be a waste to hide them... Plus... I'm not going to dress like a 40 year old, espesh when around friends.. That makes ya stand out more!
No, this does not make me a s-word.. Nor does it make me arrogant either, I wear what I feel comfortable with and act as confident as I can... Now, if people see that as me being arrogant, it must be coz they are jealous... I try to be as supportive as I can for everyone, and always tend to put others first..
Also.... I don't like the word 'passing', it's never been about 'passing' and it never will, I'm just lucky in certain aspects.... Yeah of course I do have one or another unwanted 'feature' but I think self-esteem has a lot to do with it too... And you can see this in pictures too, I mean a lot of people don't 'pass' simply because of the expressions they have, way they sit and walk, etc.... And that is something that has a solution! Which on top of all is free... Some people have to learn to smile more and keep their heads high (and if you stand straight, sticking you tummy in and shoulders backwards, it'll give you a lot better figure... You've no idea how many people I've seen do this wrong.... :)
I think it's wrong to judge other people based on their appearance, but I don't see the harm in caring about passing for yourself. Everyone has a differet set of priorities and I respect those who don't care about passing. There is no need to judge someone else for this, especially if they are happy. However, I do feel passing is very important for me personally. And while I wouldn't judge or insult those who say passing doesn't matter, I feel a different way about myself and my own path. But what works for me isn't what works for others and vice versa. Sadly, I don't feel I can pass yet, so it does drive me crazy and obsess over it.
Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 19, 2014, 03:56:14 PM
But apparently that little nugget of information is arrogant.
Alas, there are a lot of people who feel that there is a single "right" way to do it. I fully believe that's the origin of the criticism I received that my transition was "too easy" - I had done it in the ways that fit me and were comfortable to me and they felt that by bypassing the parts I didn't want to deal with I had "cheated."
I'd just totally lmao at them...ugly and man-like? If saying that floats their boat oky, but it makes them look pretty dumb lol
Quote from: bluebirdx88 on September 20, 2014, 07:31:42 AM
Uhm... .... I wear minis, and I guess most of my clothing is quite revealing... I'm young, it looks good on me, and it's what I want to wear.. And guess what? I have great legs, so it'd be a waste to hide them... Plus... I'm not going to dress like a 40 year old, espesh when around friends.. That makes ya stand out more!
No, this does not make me a s-word.. Nor does it make me arrogant either, I wear what I feel comfortable with and act as confident as I can...
Well, I'm a 49 year old and I wear these^^___^^. I may not be young but it looks good on me too. What's wrong with re-capturing a part of my youth I never had? As long as I have the body for this type of clothing I don't see the problem, and I've never been one to follow society's stereotypes.Quote from: Agent_J on June 22, 1974, 03:53:18 AM
Alas, there are a lot of people who feel that there is a single "right" way to do it. I fully believe that's the origin of the criticism I received that my transition was "too easy" - I had done it in the ways that fit me and were comfortable to me and they felt that by bypassing the parts I didn't want to deal with I had "cheated."
^^___^^Everyone should do what is best for them to make transition as easy on them as possible. Yes, I'll agree some of us have it a little luckier in some areas than others but that doesn't make our transition insignificant or any easier on us. From the outside looking in it's very wrong IMHO to pass judgement on anyone for As a matter of fact some of us have literally been through hell to make it to where we are now. All of us have our own unique problems that may or may not be easily visible to everyone else. Also IMHO, it's impossible to "cheat" your way through transition. Just my $.02.
Ally :icon_flower:
Quote from: Allyda on September 21, 2014, 04:07:25 AM
Well, I'm a 49 year old and I wear these^^___^^. I may not be young but it looks good on me too. What's wrong with re-capturing a part of my youth I never had? As long as I have the body for this type of clothing I don't see the problem, and I've never been one to follow society's stereotypes.
^^___^^Everyone should do what is best for them to make transition as easy on them as possible. Yes, I'll agree some of us have it a little luckier in some areas than others but that doesn't make our transition insignificant or any easier on us. From the outside looking in it's very wrong IMHO to pass judgement on anyone for As a matter of fact some of us have literally been through hell to make it to where we are now. All of us have our own unique problems that may or may not be easily visible to everyone else. Also IMHO, it's impossible to "cheat" your way through transition. Just my $.02.
Ally :icon_flower:
My point exactly . If it suits you and you're comfortable it's your right and not arrogance.
Quote from: Jess42 on September 18, 2014, 06:11:55 PM
Really? A young transgirl on facebook ranting about how ugly and manlike trans women? Nothing about passable? Or un passable? Sorry Riley. But please don't feed the trolls. Anybody or anyone can be anything on the internet. I could be a 300 pound gorilla that learned how to type sitting in my mamma's basement with a Cheetos fingerprinted T shirt and sitting in my whitey tighties just to PO everyone here at susans off. :-\
But big ol' bears, don't take offense. I love bears BTW. God... Never mind. I won't even go there but the contrast between smooth skin and hairy. :embarrassed:
The truth is I am a MTF non binary but becoming more binary MTF sitting in cutoff shorts and tank top drinking a little Port wine, listening to Black Sabbath's 13 album trying to make you see that I can be who I wanna' be on the internet. The last part is true though but seriously I am Cindy Crawford just making fun of everyone here that is transgendered. I don't think she would but see how easy it is to be who you wanna' be? But seriously I am Cindy Crawford listening to Black Sabbath's 13, I wish. :P
But seriously Riley. This whole post was leading to a point and that point is never let anyone bring you down or focus our mind off the prize. that Prize is up to you. If I was to walk into a club, male or female, I would send a drink you way. Whether I was male of female at the time. Don't let other people bring you down. There are way too many idiots on the internet.
I actually didn't feed the troll, it just struck a chord reading that. I know what internal transphobia is and possibly everyone here. It is something we all need to break out of because we'll be miserable ->-bleeped-<-s. Honestly I felt sorry for the girl since it was painfully obvious she had so much loathing in her. It is upsetting that so many can hold these views because society tells us the worst thing you can be called is a woman. We are at the lowest according to patriarchy because we go so vehemently against it. So many guys I've seen are so appalled by the idea that they might be perceived as feminine in any slight way. I feel really bad for those with that hate because it is ignorance and fear that we so actively teach.
Quote from: Riley Skye on September 21, 2014, 12:22:17 PM
I actually didn't feed the troll, it just struck a chord reading that. I know what internal transphobia is and possibly everyone here. It is something we all need to break out of because we'll be miserable ->-bleeped-<-s. Honestly I felt sorry for the girl since it was painfully obvious she had so much loathing in her. It is upsetting that so many can hold these views because society tells us the worst thing you can be called is a woman. We are at the lowest according to patriarchy because we go so vehemently against it. So many guys I've seen are so appalled by the idea that they might be perceived as feminine in any slight way. I feel really bad for those with that hate because it is ignorance and fear that we so actively teach.
Well Riley. The whole truth of the matter is that we as humans think we are always right. Right in what we do, right in what path we choose, right about what we think and so on The real truth is that everyone has a right to live their own lives regardless of what anyone else in the word thinks. If I want to go full blown SRS, FFS, all kinds of surgeries to get the perfect female body then that is totally my choice. No one else's. If I want HRT and keep what I got then again, that is up to me. If I want FFS, Breast Augmentation, hips worked on and never take any E, well that is my choice too. Just because someone chooses one path and then puts down everyone else that have chosen different paths, then they are really small minded people.
Don't let people like this get to you. Just let 'em talk and eventually they will talk themselves into a hole that they can't climb out of and lose all, if ever they had any, legitimacy. Don't let anyone bring you down, that we have control over.
Quote from: Jess42 on September 21, 2014, 03:06:25 PM
The whole truth of the matter is that we as humans think we are always right.
This. Before I dealt with this (albeit far more intensely) in transition, I dealt with it for being childfree and living in a certain region where a common icebreaker question was "how many kids do you have?" It was a significant factor in why my social activity was limited to NoKidding! events held hours away - I just got so tired of the fact that every outing became other people declaring that they had the right to debate my own life choices.
Quote from: Riley Skye on September 17, 2014, 12:37:39 PM
So a few days ago on the "transgender support" page on facebook a young trans girl, guessing a teenager, came in and started ranting about how ugly and manlike trans women on the page are. It astounded me how much transphobia this girl has towards her own community. It's an online support group where we are trying to find support and some happiness in our lives. I find that there are some people obsessed with passing, whole sites that tell us passing and going stealth is the key to happiness in our lives. It's frustrating to see such views that some hold. What is most important is that we are happy with ourselves inside and out, it just hurts to see that some people have such views about their own community.
Riley, have you ever thought of PMing this brat? Maybe she doesn't even know what she's doing, although I doubt that's the case. I think it might be worth a try anyway. Some people, transgendered women inclThis is kind of off the subject, but I have a cis girlfriend who calls everyone, including me, dude, in public. I've told her a bunch of times to knock it off with me, but I found out she calls her own mom "dude", so if I'm going to be with her in public, I guess I have to put up with it. She says, Mira, I call everyone dude, even my daughter (she does that too!), and I tried to tell her it's different with me because since I'm transgendered, she's leaving me, her best friend, open to scrutiny, but she can't seem to get the hang of it. I love her like a sister, though, so I grit my teeth and bear it. I have enough confidence in myself that I'm not worried I'll be clocked over 'dude'. Honestly though, I hated the word 'dude' and the attitude that came with it when I was still trying to pass as male. Or if my S.O. ever calls me his, 'old lady' I'll strangle him with my bra-straps!
Quote from: LizMarie on September 17, 2014, 03:23:34 PM
Do you know what's amusing here? Really really amusing and funny?
I suggest anyone really fixated about passing go to a busy mall, sit down, and just watch. Watch the women going by. And not just the young women. Look at the middle aged women. Look at the older women.
If you're honest with yourself, you see a lot of middle aged and older women who look a bit more masculine. And because of this, an older transwoman can actually pass more readily than a younger one.
Now, to be honest, there's a lot to be said for personal presentation.
Here's a photo of me from just the other night, out with my daughter. I was not misgendered once. Nobody stared. Nobody even gave us a second glance. But I wasn't wearing a hot pink miniskirt, bright pink lipstick, or had size DDDDD breast forms either (just my natural A cups).
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com%2F2014%2F09%2Fbirthday-2014-1.jpg%3Fw%3D225%26amp%3Bh%3D300&hash=1680bac6d3363d5c27d65afeeea5583f8682a497)
But a middle aged to late middle aged transwoman has tons more leeway than younger transwomen, who are being directly compared to fresh young vixens at the top of their biological game. Now some of our younger sisters pull this off in spades. There are some amazingly beautiful younger transwomen. But those who don't feel they belong on the Miss Universe stage need to give themselves a break too.
So just stop with the worries and go sit down in a busy shopping mall and watch. Watch all the shapes and sizes, all the women who've got the entire package and all those who don't. And just realize that you fit on that same spectrum and it's ok.
Hi Liz,
If I saw you in a dress shop, walking down the street or in a department store, I wouldn't wonder if you're a woman, I'd know you are, and you are. I've given the same advice you're giving most definitely used it myself when I first transitioned. It went a long way toward taking my fears of being misgendered, but it did much more than that. I watched how women dressed, walked, spoke with each other and men, and their simple body language and posture. That being said..........I pass, but I pass for many reasons, and much of them demanded and received my attention and hard work. I lost 66 lbs., although I've gained back 13, but it was 28, and I've lost 15 of it again. I've worked on my voice, developed a style of my own in my clothes, don't overdo my makeup, but I nearly always put my face on in the morning and ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS, go out in public looking what I consider presentable. If you look at my 'Before and after' post, (Re: The All New 'Before & After Topic (v 3.0)
« Reply #406 on: September 15, 2014, 03:37:25 am) you'll see a huge difference in everything about me from the beginning, and I didn't start out with much of anything to work with. And I began with watching.
However, like the post below, I must take exception with the whole age and passing statement. There are plenty of older transwomen who don't pass because just like younger trans women who don't, there could be any number of reasons that need to be addressed first, such as FFS, weight, giving HRT time to do its magic, learning the art of makeup, clothes, etc. And confidence. The one thing I've seen that can sink even the prettiest transgendered woman is not making eye contact, i.e. "what does she have to hide from me that she can't or won't look me in the eyes?!?!"
Quote from: paula lesley on September 17, 2014, 02:38:14 PM
It is just an age thing. The young do not wish to be old and the old just wish ;)
Paula, you're most likely young, although I don't really know for sure, but I must tell you....that's such a load of arrogant ->-bleeped-<-e to me, but not for the reasons you assume. The vast majority of us older women who transitioned in their forties, fifties and even sixties, do indeed WISH we were younger, but lots of us wish that because of the years, or for me, decades, that were completely and utterly wasted, with absolutely nothing to show for my time on this earth other than some good songs and excellent lyrics, the vast majority of them terribly sad and for those who knew the real me, very revealing about my transsexuality. I also have no children to love, take pride in or worry about, but I did have three serious suicide attempts, a 12 year heroin habit between 1983 and '95, two prison terms and still slightly visible track scars to feel really joyful, confident and self respect over, lol. Fortunately, I'm actually very happy with the way I look, at peace with who I am now, and the complete acceptance I've received from everyone in my life who matter to me. I guess most of all, I thank God for letting me live long enough to do this, the only thing I really knew that could make survival turn to happiness, and existence into life. Being a girl/woman...Mira
I have a lot of internalized transphobia, homophobia, you name it, and it all boils down to poor self-esteem. I think as a child I learned to judge superficially because it was the only way I could rely on being accepted. With this I mean not being accepted unless going home with good grades and feeling like a failure for mistakes, and I also somehow projected me not being accepted by my peers into my looks - big head, big nose. I now realize it had nothing to do with the way I look, but with the deep lack of safety and acceptance I was holding inside me. Others learn your smell. We're animals after all and our intuitions guide us. The weakling is easy prey.
So the way I see it, modern culture is superficial, which supports views that really result just poor self-esteem. I don't know how to cure that. But I know I have to protect myself and my peers from that. And as I'm still building a healthy self-esteem I can only do so much without harming myself. So far I've learned that I can handle being with people with good confidence, whether they pass or not. But I fear of going out myself to try and see if I'm gendered correctly, so of course I'm also afraid of the reactions that others may get. If I'm not aware of their ability to handle it themselves I may not have the strength to stick with them - unless, maybe, we're trying it out together?
I hope this doesn't come out as offensive because that's not my intent. My intent is to increase my understanding of what's really going on. Now I'm looking for more ways to build up my self-esteem so I can be a better person.
Quote from: Agent_J on September 21, 2014, 10:15:55 PM
This. Before I dealt with this (albeit far more intensely) in transition, I dealt with it for being childfree and living in a certain region where a common icebreaker question was "how many kids do you have?" It was a significant factor in why my social activity was limited to NoKidding! events held hours away - I just got so tired of the fact that every outing became other people declaring that they had the right to debate my own life choices.
I faced the fact a long time ago that how I live my life is 100% totally up to me and the choices I make concerning it. The ones that don't like it, or condemn me for it, belittle me, make fun of me, curse me, judge me and all the other crap that arrogant people seem to want to do that are living "perfect" lives can go somewhere and do something with themselves and the horses they rode in on, if they can even get off of their high horses even. ;D But I know people and people have all kinds of little twists and kinks in their lives that they try to hide really good. My house is definitely glass and I don't throw any stones and there isn't one person on this planet that isn't living in a glass house, yet they still throw stones and when the stones get thrown back they raise all kinds of crap.
BTW I know exactly how you feel 'cause I never had any kids either. And that does seem to be a commonality where I'm at too. I just tell people that I never wanted any because I didn't want them to eventually kill me in my sleep. ;) That trips 'em up a little. The looks on their faces is priceless. :laugh:
I get it. I really tried to put them off it somehow but I found that a lot in the general Scranton, Pennsylvania, region were seriously stuck on that. I can't tell you how many would just keep bringing it up again well after the conversation had moved on, like that they found the fact so personally disturbing that they couldn't engage in conversation on any other topic for hours more. It's seriously tiring to deal with.
Something I truly love about being in the Research Triangle is that I have never experienced that here.
Quote from: Agent_J on September 22, 2014, 03:40:49 PM
I get it. I really tried to put them off it somehow but I found that a lot in the general Scranton, Pennsylvania, region were seriously stuck on that. I can't tell you how many would just keep bringing it up again well after the conversation had moved on, like that they found the fact so personally disturbing that they couldn't engage in conversation on any other topic for hours more. It's seriously tiring to deal with.
Something I truly love about being in the Research Triangle is that I have never experienced that here.
I know Agent_J. It does get extremely tiring. Especially when everyone wants to talk about their kids. That isn't really bad but they end up looking at me like I am some sort of enigma. Wow, you haven't ever had kids? And then it kind of stays there and they pull out all the photos. C'mon, make me feel worst than I did before. :( Not just Scranton Pa.
BTW, what is the Research Triangle?
Quote from: Jess42 on September 22, 2014, 03:47:15 PM
I know Agent_J. It does get extremely tiring. Especially when everyone wants to talk about their kids. That isn't really bad but they end up looking at me like I am some sort of enigma. Wow, you haven't ever had kids? And then it kind of stays there and they pull out all the photos. C'mon, make me feel worst than I did before. :( Not just Scranton Pa.
BTW, what is the Research Triangle?
Research triangle is NC I assume.
Correct; the general region of Raleigh, Durham and Chapel Hill. The name comes from the three research universities in the region (Duke, NC State, and UNC-Chapel Hill, a.k.a. UNC or Carolina - stakes a claim as the nation's oldest public university) and was solidified with the creation of Research Triangle Park, a tech-business park where companies like IBM and Cisco have major presences.
Yep, it's on the top of my list of places to move to. I would absolutely love to get out of Jersey for many reasons.
My only criticism of the area is some of the transition providers, and a lot of that seems to have to do with fitting into certain pre-conceptions of what is the "right" way to transition that they hold - happen to fit them and problems are few, but woe unto they who doesn't fit enough!
Miranda, I do agree with much of what you say. What I was trying to say, and perhaps I said it very badly, was that I feel (personal opinion!!) that older transwomen do have more leeway than younger ones. And yes, I am very aware that some older transwomen do not pass but a lot of that is, like you mentioned, really re-learning to be female through and through, yielding years of male training to our feminine selves, letting go of habit and becoming the woman we would rather be. My only intent was to say that I believe the "door" to pass as an older transwoman is a bit wider and more forgiving than that of a younger one. Otherwise I completely agree with your points!
:)