I've just noticed that mtfs tend to use the term going "full-time" more than ftms. I don't actually think I've seen ftms using it, but then we probably use "passing" more...but that's also an umbrella term. I want to hear your opinions on why "full-time" is almost exclusively an mtf thing.
Really? I always figured its a term all of us undergoing the full transition ends up using at some point. I think it's because there's just more of us trans women on here vs trans men is why you probably don't see it being discussed as much. There's also a bunch of people here who don't fully transition too so that's another factor to consider and on top of the fact that there's lots of people that come here who are just starting to transition/questioning so the concept of full time isn't even on their radar.
I think it is because it is not as traumatic for FTM's since the clothing issue isn't something that causes harassment as it does for MTF's.
I've been dressing the same way all my life, I think most MTF's are forced into wearing 'male' apparel while we are not.
I think most of it has do with women having greater freedom in gender presentation. A transman who doesn't pass= butch lesbian to others where as a transwoman who doesn't pass=man in a dress. Unfortunately for transwomen a man in a dress is a joke and bathroom issues make going full time much different as men don't typically freakout if you don't pass in the restroom.
For m2f it has to do with saying I'm no longer presenting in a male persona, it's usually a line in the sand where beforehand we are dabbling and switching between modes. At some point many of us will say "no more switching!" Given that f2m people can often present in a more gender neutral even masculine way prior to transition whereas m2f don't have as much leeway (ie, dressing in a frock while still presenting as male might get you beaten up or ridiculed) so perhaps the transition needs to be psychologically more "definite"? Other than that I haven't got a clue!
I think girls growing up have a lot more leeway in the clothes they wear . a 9 , 12,17, 21 year old male in a dress would be noticed where as the same aged female in jeans and an army jacket wouldn't.
It's probably mostly because of clothes. FtMs usually can start wearing mens clothes before even starting hormones and no one blinks an eye. They can slowly evolve. MtFs usually start hormones before going in public dressed as a woman, so the transition from presenting male and then presenting female can change in just one day.
I dunno. I'm tired and kinda loopy, so hopefully this makes sense to others lol
Yep I agree with that Abbey and what Ms. Grace stated. The issue of how powerful T is on our bodies regarding how heavy our physiques change and the double standard of wearing feminine clothing.
The phrase "full-time" to me meant the point at which the clock started ticking to where I would be able to obtain letters for my Srs surgery. I didn't want to give the psychiatric community more of my money and time than I had to.
Yeah, that's something one of my FtM friends noticed.
Our hormones don't do much for us. For us transitioning is an effort of will. We decide to change our voices, our dress, etc., and then we do it.
For FtM's it's different. Their hormones do the work for them. With the exception of chest and bottom, when an FtM takes hormones, his body eventually becomes male. There's no day they can say "yesterday I had a female body but today it's male".
Also, our surgery still requires a "real life test" so we need some way to mark when that's started.
As stated by others, MtF's have many more societal issues to deal with in regards to getting to be themselves. Dressing as a guy pretty much sets you inside of a very small box of what you can wear or how you can act and that be considered "ok" and anything outside of that box can get you attacked or worse as we are now seen as some kind of threat to society. FtM's can dress very masculine and be themselves with very little societal repercussions, that "free pass" is worth more than most can ever imagine.
For me going full time meant the moment when I started living my life as who I am, at all times. There was a definite sudden switch when I started living authentically. At work it literally was one day I was a guy 100% through and through "my co-workers did NOT see this coming which still baffles me to this day" and over the course of the weekend I come back to work on Monday as a woman. There were people that didn't even recognize that I was who I was and introduced themselves as if this was the first time we were meeting this new female employee. That date is a gatekeeping requirement for me getting to finally have my life affirming surgery. While I know less than 10 FtM's in person vs the 30 something MtF's one thing that is vastly different between the two groups is that it's much harder to define that moment when FtM's started living authentically as there isn't such a sudden shift where one day they were Female and the next they were Male. They had a much easier time getting to the point of living authentically as they slowly worked their way into it as they were able to explore who they are and how they preferred to dress all while the people around them easily accepted the transition over time. I have never heard any of them mention the word full time when talking about themselves untill it was brought up in discussion by some MtF's talking to each other in a group setting.
For transgender patients, full time is a phrase that describes what the WPATH SOC also calls "real life experience" or "real life test". It means living, working, and existing every minute of every day as the gender with which you associate, not your birth gender.
In particular, certain surgeries have guidelines associated with them that strongly recommend the completion of a certain length of "full time" experience before the surgery is granted and approved.
Since FTMs frequently do not do bottom surgery (due to it not yet being as advanced as many would like), this impacts FTMs less frequently than MTFs, many more of whom do seek bottom surgery, which is tied to a WPATH SOC full time living guideline.
This may explain why MTFs discuss "full time" more often than FTMs.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on September 21, 2014, 12:17:31 PM
I've noticed that being "full-time" before even starting hormones is VERY common among FtMs, but not so much among MtFs.
Chalk it up to societal pressure. You guys don't have to worry about backlash as much. Yes you have to deal with the same rejection from friends and family, but socially your issue is more with being "invisible," where people can't even tell that you're trans, they just assume that you're butch lesbians or something. So while misgendering is just as much of an issue, (actually, probably more so,) not so much worrying about being seen as a freak by anonymous people. To you guys, going "full-time" is more just living authentically, which doesn't necessarily have a set start point. Where when MtFs try wearing female clothes, it's a pretty big deal that we need to look the part. (Because of a little thing called trans-misogyny.) Or else we can get stares and laughs and possibly heckled by people. So it's a much bigger deal when we go full-time because it's basically saying "this is the day that I faced my fears and decided to finally be myself."
I don't think the guys have it so easy either. Tough looking butch lesbians aren't exactly corporate leaders or rising up in society. Plus they start off from the female perspective so that had a different social upbringing in their youth. I don't think that they have much better clothing choice since that is where we are getting down to right? The thing for MTFs is fear and discovered. "omigod I have a dress on! What if somebody I know sees me?". Once the fear is removed that argument holds no more weight.
I personally believe that the reasons for "full time" is for surgery tracked individuals from both sides of the gender spectrum. Those who desire genital surgery worry about the countdown to getting letters and finally getting out of the system so they can live their lives in peace and quiet without a constant stream of medical poking and prodding
It is probably that society is more open toward women dressing as they choose and being accepted in traditional male roles.
(1) Women can wear any clothes of their choice without prejudice.
(2) Women can be accepted in men's public restrooms without fear of legal action.
(3) Women are still allowed to have women only activities (exercise clubs, sports activities, etc.).
(4) Women reporters are allowed in men's locker rooms (even when the men are nude) following sports events.
(5) Women have become accepted in all occupations. There is no longer a male only profession.
There are many other examples of female preference. There is no longer (male only) but (female only) still exists.
Quote from: mac1 on September 21, 2014, 04:19:34 PM
It is probably that society is more open toward women dressing as they choose and being accepted in traditional male roles.
(1) Women can wear any clothes of their choice without prejudice.
(2) Women can be accepted in men's public restrooms without fear of legal action.
(3) Women are still allowed to have women only activities (exercise clubs, sports activities, etc.).
(4) Women reporters are allowed in men's locker rooms (even when the men are nude) following sports events.
(5) Women have become accepted in all occupations. There is no longer a male only profession.
There are many other examples of female preference. There is no longer (male only) but (female only) still exists.
(1)
Anyone can wear any clothes they want. It's not you or I that get to decide how you look it's how you wish to be perceived by society in general. If you want to go out and be seen as a woman, then be a woman. If you want to be a man in a dress with a beard and hairy chest showing then go ahead but you might not make it very far. If you are not out, then you just don't realize that there is no wall separating what one can wear especially if one is MTF it's make believe. The only barriers are the mind. Do the right things and you can disappear into a crowd. If you want to stick out then stick out. What I have found over the years is that there are women who don't dress their age, and they will get "ewww, did you see that fat bi**ch in the skin tight dress? She looks like a pig wrapped in bacon! Gross". Yeah that happens and a lot from woman to woman. The longer I live the more I witness the deep prejudices that people harbor inside them simply because they don't want to know or understand. If you fit a certain description of what society deems man or woman then all is right with the world
(2)
A few years ago I was somewhere, I just don't remember, but the women's room near where I was was closed and the next closest women's room was quite a hike. So Ifigured what the hell, try the men's room. I said hello before I walked in and no one said anything. When I walked inside there was a man in there and looked at me and said get the hell out of her, this is the men's room.
(3)
What about hunting, fishing, football. I could go on and on but men have their own little "boys club" too. Besides I find women only activities kind of boring. It's nice to talk and socialize for a little bit and then after that I am done. I have a woman I work with who belongs to some knitting circle at work and I made the mistake once of telling her I used to knitting when I was little. Since then I have had a number of offers to join and honestly I would rather strangle myself with yarn than make something useful out of it,
(4)
Who cares? Does it make a difference. If that athlete is married with a family do you think he is walking around the locker room with his junk hanging out? I doubt it. Most men I have found are a little leery about having their junk hanging for fear that there might be someone else close by with bigger junk.
(5)
My company was just sued for millions of dollars last year because of a sex discrimination lawsuit when a man who was less qualified was promoted over a woman who was more qualified. The company sent out letters talking about how they would address pay inequality. Then one day I get a call from my boss and find out that "presto I am getting a 5% raise" because I was underpaid compared to my peers. So are women accepted in male dominated fields? Yeah, but....when it comes to work pay inequality is very real.
Zumba you are missing the point sweetie. MtFs are considered by the general public as potential molesters, rapist's, etc., when in female area's. The same attitude does NOT prevail against females in male area's. This attitude adds a whole new dimension to the trials and challenges of MtFs in relation to real life full time experience. :)
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 21, 2014, 06:39:24 PM
Zumba you are missing the point sweetie. MtFs are considered by the general public as potential molesters, rapist's, etc., when in female area's. The same attitude does NOT prevail against females in male area's. This attitude adds a whole new dimension to the trials and challenges of MtFs in relation to real life full time experience. :)
Thank you for the support.
I forgot to mention that example.
Quote from: mac1 on September 21, 2014, 06:48:22 PM
Thank you for the support.
I was hoping that was where you were going! ;)
My view is that RLE for MtFs is much more difficult without hormones because of clothing, hair and physical features. Not kidding.
FtMs can cut their hair and wear more loose clothing and they can pass more easily, in my opinion. Why? A lot of men don't have much facial hair, some shave it away and a few even go for electrolysis..
Whereas if a MtF wears female clothing in many cases it doesn't fit right and it is very obvious that they are not female shaped because female clothing is often more form fitting. Hormones take care of that in most cases and "passing" is much easier once you've been filled out by hormones.
There is also the stigma of a man in a dress. Women wear pants. Have worn them for a long time. Do men wear skirts? Apart from kilts and religious or ethnic wear, in western cultures the answer is generally NO.
Other points are valid - the stigma of men as child molesters, rapists etc.
Some woman high school teachers have recently been convicted of having sexual encounters with boy students. However, women are still not seen as sexual predators.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 21, 2014, 06:39:24 PM
Zumba you are missing the point sweetie. MtFs are considered by the general public as potential molesters, rapist's, etc., when in female area's. The same attitude does NOT prevail against females in male area's. This attitude adds a whole new dimension to the trials and challenges of MtFs in relation to real life full time experience. :)
I've been living full time for 15 years now. No one has ever called me that or hinted. Those are just imagined demons that people want to use to call themselves victims. My experience in life is limited to the people around me, but I have found even the gnarliest bible thumper (perverts in the bathroom type) can still be a friend. I may not agree on much but that doesn't mean we couldn't be friends. At the very least it's one mind I can change :). One less enemy.
Quote from: Zumbagirl on September 21, 2014, 07:14:02 PM
Those are just imagined demons
Those imagined demons sure get a lot of real life flesh and blood people sentenced to prison every year in the U.S. :)
Quote from: ImagineKate on September 21, 2014, 06:52:05 PM
My view is that RLE for MtFs is much more difficult without hormones because of clothing, hair and physical features. Not kidding.
FtMs can cut their hair and wear more loose clothing and they can pass more easily, in my opinion. Why? A lot of men don't have much facial hair, some shave it away and a few even go for electrolysis..
Whereas if a MtF wears female clothing in many cases it doesn't fit right and it is very obvious that they are not female shaped because female clothing is often more form fitting. Hormones take care of that in most cases and "passing" is much easier once you've been filled out by hormones.
There is also the stigma of a man in a dress. Women wear pants. Have worn them for a long time. Do men wear skirts? Apart from kilts and religious or ethnic wear, in western cultures the answer is generally NO.
t have to shave an
Other points are valid - the stigma of men as child molesters, rapists etc.
Again I say that the point is being missed. Can an FTM wear men's jeans and fishing waders and hang around home depot talking about the tensile strength of a good 10 penny nail? Sure, but they also have years of social conditioning they have to unlearn, a voice to be changed, etc. a transman in his late 30s who doesn't have to shave and has a wonderful complexion and a somewhat sing songy voice is probably going to have a hard time getting clocked even as a metrosexual man. An FTM wants to be seen as a man not as a woman pretending to be a man. Being a man as I'm sure any MTF could testify is not just about the clothes one wears. It's more sublime than that.
I feel the journey is no less different or life altering no matter what side of the street one comes from. That's the teaching moment that I got from the RLE. The only demons we create are demons we invent to haunt ourselves and keep us down because of the taboo nature of sex in our culture.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 21, 2014, 07:19:12 PM
Those imagined demons sure get a lot of real life flesh and blood people sentenced to prison every year in the U.S. :)
Could you please explain this? I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Thanks!
Quote from: Zumbagirl on September 21, 2014, 07:14:02 PM
I've been living full time for 15 years now. No one has ever called me that or hinted. Those are just imagined demons that people want to use to call themselves victims.
I'm really happy for you that your experience has been so positive, but not everyone is that lucky. To say that everyone who hasn't had it as easy as you are just imagining things is quite rude. Not everyone is going to have the same experience as you.
Quote from: mac1 on September 21, 2014, 07:01:29 PM
Some woman high school teachers have recently been convicted of having sexual encounters with boy students. However, women are still not seen as sexual predators.
That's true because society's perception is that a male having sex with an older woman is a "score" whereas for a female it's statutory rape.
Stay on topic people
Being a woman is a lot of work, I'm not sure how anyone can avoid going full time ;)
You can't avoid going full time. I wouldn't want to either. I started full time before HRT, but I was able to pull that off without any real problem. As stated it's also needed for SRS. My insurance covers SRS and very clearly states the 12 month requirement in the paperwork that comes with their transgender services program that they also require to cover it.
The term full time is interesting because to the outward world it seems to imply that the switch is near instantaneous, my observation is that many FTMs gradually transition and in my case I've chosen to let nature do it's thing and let society see my progress as it happens.
I consider myself full time since I only wear female clothing, I only speak in my female voice, I wear make-up most days and generally try my best to present as female but since I'm comfortable with myself and not ashamed in any way I figured why not do a open transition.
Perhaps full time is more of a mental state and commitment to present permanently as your preferred gender than anything else.
Quote from: Zumbagirl on September 21, 2014, 07:25:57 PM
Again I say that the point is being missed. Can an FTM wear men's jeans and fishing waders and hang around home depot talking about the tensile strength of a good 10 penny nail? Sure, but they also have years of social conditioning they have to unlearn, a voice to be changed, etc.
I feel the journey is no less different or life altering no matter what side of the street one comes from.
You're absolutely right that their experience in transition is no less difficult than ours. T does more for them than E does for us, but I can see how their social transition may even be a bit more difficult than ours.
I think the difference is that FTM's who aren't yet passing, are seen as butch women, which is acceptable to most in society. Whereas MTF's who aren't yet passing are seen as guys in dresses, and society isn't nearly as accepting of that.
I would just like to thank you all for joining in and having a lively discussion. :) That is all, continue on...I find it rather fascinating.
full-time for an mtf often means wearing so visibly female attire that with how society still works, it would be weird to not realize they're presenting as and wanting to be treated as women.
full-time for an ftm is more like a whole lot of invalidation, and even more invalidation. talking about full-time when all people are willing to see is a cute tomboy, seems kind of pointless. if all women still wore dresses, it would be a much more sensational thing though, and could be talked about as much as trans girls talk about it.
just imagine if everybody wore dresses, and the only gender cues were things like the length, color preferences, amount of lace. wouldn't be too easy for an mtf to show the world that they're serious about this whole transition thing, particularly if men had more variation in dresses than what's accepted for women.
Quote from: V M on September 21, 2014, 08:25:56 PM
I'm not sure how anyone can avoid going full time ;)
It is pretty easy - just_dont_do_it :) :) :)
From an FTM pov, I think a lot of you guys are right on the money. The term "full-time" is essentially meaningless for me. It doesn't matter if I wake up in the morning and think, "Alright world, today's the day I present as male!" The world doesn't see me that way. There's essentially nothing I can do for the world to see me that way. It's the flip-side of the "T does all the work" thing. Right now, I'm binding, my hair is short and my clothes are unambiguously masculine. But I've been miss'd and ma'am'd twice now, and I've only been here an hour.
What we regard as masculine is the societal default. Taka is right. When an MTF woman steps outside in skinny jeans and a blouse, she's sending a signal to the world that says "I wish, in some way, to be associated with female-ness." It doesn't matter if she passes or not -- that act, in and of itself, is visible to those around her. Of course, that can be scary, even dangerous. If she doesn't pass, that assertion of femininity can leave her vulnerable to bigots who see her as, at best, a cross-dresser, and at worst, a rapist. The stigma is shameful, and it's not something that most FTMs often face.
I don't wish to suggest transitioning as an FTM is easy, of nor that it's without violence (it clearly isn't; FTMs are particularly vulnerable to corrective rape, especially when in men's spaces), just that it's different, and on a daily basis, imo, less threatening. What it is, however, is a slow grind of powerlessness: invisibility, invalidation, impotence. The fact that many men are clean-shaven is irrelevant because so long as I possess even a whiff of girlhood, I cannot possibly be a man, "real" or otherwise. So why bother to talk about full time? I'm "obviously a girl" despite taking every action to express myself to the contrary. I barely even get pegged as "trans" or gender-nonconforming. My experiences are nothing like that of a trans girl's debut. This is why "passing" gets the brunt of the focus.
There is an element of overlap, though. I wouldn't call myself "full time" by any standard because I am scared sh*tless to pack (ie, to wear a prosthetic penis) most days, because it removes the plausible deniability I might have in the face of anti-trans sentiment (or even just if I run into my neighbor). Realistically, I know ain't no one gonna be staring at my junk, but whoo boy. Makes me nervous.
Does any of this make sense?