I know better but it still sucks when someone makes you.
Compared to most I'm still new at this, but I don't know, maybe I'm just being a little down on myself. I'm completely out to everyone, family, friends, work etc... and although I've only been living full time for 4 months, it sure brings you down to earth when it happens.
It's going to happen again, and it's not the first time I've been made either, but it still sucks. 99% of the time I pass without any problems I think I must have done or said something that gave me away so to speak. Oh well, grin and bare it huh.
I guess it's because I'm having a tough week at work. Nothing to do with my transition or anything associated with it, just a driver shortage, coupled with the long hours and that piled on top of the pressures of Christmas, and the pressures of my transition doesn't help either.
Now I know why people think we're crazy :D
Wait a second... I feel better now! :)
Steph
It does suck, doesn't it Steph? I got brought down like a deflated balloon when someone at the pub near my place interjected into my conversation, pointing at me saying "she lives near here". Now granted, that obviously means that she knew me from before (I guess. I didn't recognize her), but it was still a complete downer.
Chin up and carry on another day.
/hugs
Dennis
No question being made sucks. But it is just part of the process and those who knew us when can always make an inappropriate remark in the wrong place. I guess that's why a lot of us end up moving to new environs. As Dennis said, chin up Steph, you're not alone.
Cassie
How's this: I am meeting my son at Red Lobster for dinner and go to the ladies room before he arrives and just after I walk out that door, he walks into the crowded lobby and says, "Hey Dad, how's it going?" Yeah, it sucks.
I worry about this in that I like to jam at bars on jam night and I have been accepted as a woman without any hesitation but have this fear someone I know will come in and say something--some of these places are a bit rough--and that'll be it for me. So far so good, but I worry...
Dawn
I'm worried about that too, just randomly seeing people I know en femme since I run into people I know a lot normally..
While I have only been out in moderation now for a couple of months and not around home, it does suck when being made. I understand fully where you are coming from Steph.
I had the experiece a bout 3 weeks ago. I was out enfemme, but wearing slacks to blend in with the girls in the area where I was, as I was in a vacation area and most girls were wearing slacks or blue jeans.
All Day any of the stores I was in I was being treated like and addressed as a Lady, and had been addressed as Ma'm on several occasions.
Decided it was time for lunch, so dropped into the Red Lobster,The hostess called me sir. What a let down from what had been taken place all day as I was delighted to be referred to as ma'm the rest of the day. Needless to say I did not go into that restaurant again while in the area.
I guess That is something that we all have to put up with from time to time.
Steph, I too now feel better for getting this off my chest.
Denise
Do you think it takes not only being made but someone being mean to say something about it?
Sorry to hear that happened to you Steph. A lot of the girls here like yourself are much further along than I am, but I feel for you. I can only imagine how that must have made you feel. That has been one of my greatest fears about going out. I just want to pass and blend in. I don't want to be a man in a dress. I just want to be an everyday average woman. Keep your chin up. I have a feeling things will get better for you "down the road".
Lisabeth
Quote from: alleigh on December 13, 2005, 09:45:52 PM
Do you think it takes not only being made but someone being mean to say something about it?
I don't think many of them do it intentionally. I think they just stick you in a gender slot in their head and react to you as though you were that gender. It's pretty unconscious mostly. If they meant to be mean, it'd probably be pretty clear.
The woman in the pub near me hadn't obviously thought of what she was doing, using the female pronoun for a guy in a suit talking to other guys.
Dennis
Quote from: Dennis on December 13, 2005, 11:41:35 PM
I don't think many of them do it intentionally. I think they just stick you in a gender slot in their head and react to you as though you were that gender. It's pretty unconscious mostly. If they meant to be mean, it'd probably be pretty clear.
I think you're dead on here. People make this gender decision quickly and unconsciously and once made is hard to undo as everyone who has transitioned knows. I think the brain does a quick calculation based on facial features, size, hair, and mannerisms. So in dress, presentation, and hair style (or wig), we're trying to tip things the other way.
It defies logic sometimes. Early in my transition, I was read frequently, but could reduce this substantially by wearing a wig that concealed my forehead and brow-bossing. Yet I went through airport security once and was read as female in gender-neutral clothing without the wig. The security guy freaked when he saw a male name on the boarding pass (yeah,that was fun).
Dawn
It happens and it will no matter how well we look. Some people just pick up on it. Early in the process I ended up talking to this beautiful woman, I mean she was gorgeous. Just got back from having surgery done. And she told me that there are times when even she is read here and there. Defies logic but it happens.
I just look around or do not answer at all when it happens. And then go on because the next place will be better. :)
Quoteit sure brings you down to earth when it happens
. . . only if you let it . . .
And strangely enough, I got clocked while out at lunch today. That's okay because my company happened to be the best looking guy in the place. ;D And no, he is not my partner as I tend to gravitate towards women in that arena, just that I had great company and nothing could bring me down.
Quote from: Northern Jane on December 14, 2005, 11:07:14 AM
. . . only if you let it . . .
And you're very right Jane. It took me so by surprise because it hasn't happened to me since July that I just wasn't prepared. But I do need to be ready for when it happens, and not let it have that effect. I live in a small town, so it'll probably happen for years.
Dennis
I know it really sucks when they read you, but you have to just try and ignore the comments if any. I have been post op for about a year and half and I get people saying sir to me every once in a while. I give them a dirty look and walk away. I can't say you get use to it but you harden to it. Most of the time I do pass though and get treated like a lady, even in jeans. I know that I'm out and have been very public about who I am. So some of that is caused by me. I'm not going to move so they will have to deal with me and I will have to deal with the fact that some ignorant slob will say you are a man.
Sheila
Well there was once when life would have been easier if I had been "read".
When I went off to Colorado for SRS, I gave away the last of my male clothes to the boyfriend of one of the nurses. (She was so kind to me, invited me to her house for supper and to meet her family ::) )
On the return trip to Canada, I ws sitting on the plane chatting with a young business man about my own age and we were having a good time. (Did I mention I could be a flirt sometimes?)
It didn't dawn on me until we were approaching Canadian Customs & Immigration that the only I.D. I had was male! And I didn't look theLEAST bit male. Oh ->-bleeped-<-!
I took the young man's arm as we were chatting in the Customs line and stood so he was ahead of me in the line. When customs came to him, they asked where he was from (Canadian), where he had been (Denver), how long he had been gone, etc. (all the while I have my hand on his arm).
The customs officer turned to me (the young man waited - I still had his arm!) and said "Are you Canadian to?" I said "Yes sir.", "Are you with him?" "Yes sir." and he said "Ok, away you go."
A VERY akward situation was avoided by pure dumb luck and quick thinking :-\
(For somebody people consider "smart", I can sure be DUMB sometimes! ;D )
Funny, Jane. When I went down to SF for surgery, my ID was all still female. When I was coming back to Canada, I presented all of my ID, with "F" prominently displayed. The officer carefully inspected each piece, looked at me and said "thank you sir".
People see what they want to see I guess.
Dennis
Quote from: Harper on December 15, 2005, 04:35:36 PM
If you get "sirred" by a rather homely woman, just say,"It never ceases to amaze me that women who are not anywhere as pretty as I am occasionally will call me sir, isn't that funny?"
I tend to disagree with that tactic, Harper. Insulting someone's physical appearance isn't high on the neighborly conduct list, especially if they weren't even trying to be hurtful about it. You cannot soothe your own pain by causing pain for others. It's almost the same concept as 'violence begets violence'... ill-will only creates more ill-will.
Focusing on appearances also displays to others what is important to you...and someone who does this could come across as a very superficial and/or immature individual. I'm also of the firm belief that it's the
heart that makes someone physically appealing or unappealing--if we go around displaying our most unattractive behaviours, no amount of make-up or surgery or natural aesthetic appeal will make us beautiful. Likewise, someone who might be considered 'homely' in society's eyes who displays a beautiful heart is to me a most beautiful individual, inside and out. (Perfect example is one of my professors--dear, beautiful soul she is...) OK, I ran away with the topic, there, sorry...
I have accidentally called people by the wrong pronoun, and it had absolutely nothing to do with their appearance. For example, one day I had taken my brother to karate class, where they constantly address their leader as 'Sir!". On the way home at the grocery store I called the female clerk 'sir' since the word was so fresh inmy mind it was inconsious.
Sometimes it's a slip of the tongue, and with me that happes often, I get tongue-tied all the time, not just with gender pronouns. Probability would dictate that being called by the wrong pronoun happens 'X' amount of times in any given person's life anyway. I imagine it's quite a bit higher for TG individuals, but it doesn't mean it's intentional.
And no, I am certainly not trying to make light of what everyone here has experienced. Even though many of the mistakes made in addressing you are not done purposely, it still hurts, frustrates, unnerves you, and I imagine causes you to question yourself at times. I can't speak from any standpoint about you being 'made'...but, well...(sigh....)...I guess I don't know what else to say next...
Stephanie, dear soul, from a completely objective GG point of view, you are a most beautiful lady (inside and out :)), and you will only become moreso as time continues. You just keep walking with your head held high and don't let the 'sirs' make you stumble out of your high heels....
XOXO,
Valerie
QuoteInsulting someone's physical appearance isn't high on the neighborly conduct list, especially if they weren't even trying to be hurtful about it.
Well said Valerie,
Cheap shots surely are not the sign of someone who is comfortable with who they. Nor is it worth going down to their level if it is deliberate.
Shelley
Well, OK, whether or not Harper was joking.... since we do draw a great number of people here who are looking for answers, it's probably best not to make such kinds of jokes in the event that it's taken seriously. A lot of people, especially younger people, might have taken Harper's recommendation as a good idea and followed it. All of us must be mindful of how we present ourselves so as not to unwittingly cause another to make an unwise move.
Quote from: Northern Jane on December 14, 2005, 11:07:14 AM
. . . only if you let it . . .
Not as easily done as said. You transitioned long ago; for those of us who are transitioning, still building an identity, still trying to fit into our shoes, being made is not just upsetting, it's unsettling, Reaching the the nirvana of "only if you let it" is coming in stages for me. It started with fear and embarrassment, becoming an unsettliing experience, then an inconvenience, and slowly becoming sure of myself. Maybe some of you started with that kind of confidence, but I didn't and I think that's okay. I wouldn't want some to read your post as feel that there's something wrong with them because they get upset when they're made. "Only of you let it" is more of a goal than a reality for most of us.
Dawn
That's what I was eluding to Dawn - the goal.
My "transiton" was on-and-off periods of living as a girl between 13 and 24. From 13 to 15 was mostly in very limited circles of people who knew me in both roles, so being "read" wasn't an issue. By 15 I was going to "the big city" and clubbing with my TS friends (straight clubs) so being "read" would have been BAD NEWS for everybody in the group! Fortunately, I had already been practicing.
I was never "read" (that I know of) until years after SRS when I started getting sloppy and was also pushing the limits of what was considered "normal" for a woman to be doing. I learned that the farther I was going to push the boundary, the more unquestionable my presentation had to be.
Yes, I know I had it good in many ways and I had my self-assurance before I started getting viewed with suspicion but the key element is "do you BELIEVE you are a woman?" - if yes, then recognize it as the petty utterances of small minds and move on. (Yes,I know it still stings!)
Quote from: Harper on December 15, 2005, 04:27:53 PM
African-Americans seem to have the same kind of transdar I have. (Uncanny)
Okay, this has been something I've noticed and wondered about. I pass as male very well (I'd say about 95% of the time, even despite my stupid voice, which I'm very insecure about, and the main reason I want to start hormones, NOW). But nearly every time someone reads me as female, that someone is an African-American women. Not African-American men. Just women. And rarely even any hesitation or confusion, either, just "okay, ma'am". It's happened way too many times for me to dismiss it as coincidence any more. Why? Why is this?
Quotehave had a very smooth, fast and successful transition so far.
yeah and so have a lot of others but a lot of people with far more grit and less money, but full time conviction have had it a lot rougher or would have itr rougher, so yes, think about people and the consiquences they have to face in their own environments.
Terri
Quote from: Harper on December 18, 2005, 11:01:50 PM
Who are you to decide what is an unwise mode?
I thought it sounded like good advise to me but then what do I know? My only experiences are socializing, dating and spending my off work time in the womens community. I am also sure that my being elected Secretary of 100+ member Lesbian group gives me no credibility either.
QuoteA lot of newbies could do a lot worse than following my path. I have had a very smooth, fast and successful transition so far.
You forgot to post that you were also going to be a nail tech at one time. Nail tech to account executive?
Quote
isn't it ironic that someone not as pretty as yourself is calling you sir?
In one of your prior incarnations here you posted almost the identical thing to which I replied "the woman addressed you as she saw you" You don't have to be African American to to have in your words "->-bleeped-<-dar"
When I transitioned (1998), I was very often fearful of being made. My best friend tried to reassure me that I was pretty but I wondered if she said that out of her love for me. One time, I dated a lesbian woman who I'd conversed with for about a month online. I didn't divulge I was a transsexual. I thought our first meet went well because we shared the same sense of humor. At the end, as we were parting, I joked how funny these blind dates can be. She said, as she walked away, "Yes, one time I ended up going to a restaurant and the person I met turned out to be a transsexual. I was stunned. She left and I never heard from her again.
Other times, I'd get very upset when it seemed like someone in a restaurant or public place would stare at me. I instantly got paranoid and upset. My friend said that people look around...doesn't mean they're looking at you. Another TS friend says she experiences the same paranoia. I talked it over with a very good TS psych in W. Los Angeles and she said that I need to pretend like I'm in the military and learn to CONTROL my emotions. Though I never was in the military, oddly enough, that advice has helped me.
Teri
Yes Teri, control is exactly what it takes. I started hormones on the job and everyone knew it. They watched me as small changes took place and later bigger ones. I work for Kaiser Hospital in Sacramento and deal whith hundreds of employees and to many patients to count every weekday of my life, there is no hiding of what I am as pass to a stranger or not, it doesn't take long for someone to tell them. I have a slow growth beard and have to let it grow out at least 4 days to make fast comfortable work on my face, so I am often bearded and having to deal with perfect strangers who come to me for information and such. Wherever I am, at work or in public I never know who recognizes me. Other employees see me in different places around the sacramento area and alway give me a hi and most of them like to stop and talk a bit. half the time I don't know who they are until they tell me they are kaiser employees that have seen me around the hospitals and clinics. I live in cheap apartments and shop in normal stores all over the sac area.
Control? Hell, I just forget i'm any different from any other woman and go each day like its just a day. It can't be any other way in a position like mine so I just dress nice and smile at everyone. and know what? My department manager tells me how much every one likes me, and gets along with me,Transsesual or not and all the employees have started calling me Ms. Terri, from management down and not in a joking way either.
Go ahead and make me, does it change me?
Terri
I would not, under no circumstance, retaliate agaisnt someone who has supposedly read me. I think that would be very childish and very rude on my part. I will not get down to their level, they will have to come to my level and we can talk about me or them if they want. To call names is not lady like or adult like.
Sheila
Quote from: Northern Jane on December 15, 2005, 05:14:35 PM
Well there was once when life would have been easier if I had been "read".
On the return trip to Canada, I ws sitting on the plane chatting with a young business man about my own age and we were having a good time. (Did I mention I could be a flirt sometimes?)
I know what you mean Jane. As a pre-op who can pass for the most part, I have frequently been put in the position of having to out MYSELF. When approached by a man I can also be flirtatious. Most of the time this isnt a problem as most of this flirtation is just in passing. However when things get to the point where they must progress (as they sometimes do) and I am also interested in them I feel quite awkward. I must inevitably tell them about my birth gender. This has been awkward but at least I'm honest.
Imagine the dangerous position I would be in if I didn't out myself. It still gives me that "I've been a bad girl" feeling even though I've done the right thing. On the other hand I don't feel I should tell people about my past as soon as they say hello. When I tell someone there has been no intimate touching or even a kiss. I tell them before there is even a first date.
I've been told by a few friends that I should just stop dating all together until I am post-op. I do not feel that I should put my social life on hold simply because I am not done transitioning. In less than 18 months this will no longer be a problem.
To me being made doesn't suck, it make things easier for me...but very rarely happens. Only when I'm with people who knew me prior to transition does it come up. People who knew me before or during my earlier stages of transition can spot me instantly. 99% of others cannot. A blessing yes, but it also has a down side.
Quote from: Harper on December 20, 2005, 06:56:12 PM
I now have a positoin whiich should earn me 80-110k in 2006 but i am looking to make more. My last bi-weekly pay period was a good one, I should gross around $4500. That is equalivent to $117,000 my dear. As I learn the territory, I should reach that benchmark.
Now deary, we can end your false accusations that I don't tell the truth very easily. You or anyone who doubts me can send me a self-addressed stamped envelope and I will enclose a copy of my pay statement.
I dont recall anyone bringing up your income, all they were saying was that being intentionally snide isn't a good reaction to someone referring to you as the wrong gender. Some people just need to be informed POLITELY that you have chosen to live in a new gender role. Let's remember that we ARE ladies no matter what anyone thinks or says. It might be prudent to act that way if we expect to be seen that way.
??? :o :-* ;D
Topic locked, It got too far afield.
Quotewould not, under no circumstance, retaliate agaisnt someone who has supposedly read me
I figure it this way. Not being one of the few and rare individuals who can pass anywhere with anyone I figure I'm gonna get read or at least looked upon with suspicion more times then not, so why would I retaliate against someone who simply sees me as appearing more male in appearance then female. Now if they are being rude and making an issue of it I can find a lot of ways to jerk thier own chain and bring them down about 20-30 notches and/or squash it right back in thier faces, but just because they can see or suspect I'm not a born female is absolutely no reason to be angry with them rather It reminds me that my presentation needs work. and that the present area/people is a good place to start.
Terri