The general consensus on the internet seems to be that every trans man on testosterone eventually passes. Yet at the back of my mind I think my hands, feet and skull are too small, it'll always be really obvious. I'm worried I'll start testosterone and still look female, but some weird man woman hybrid.
Yes very irrational, even though my hands,feet and head are big, no one is going to pay attention to that, You gotta work on you right know and take peoples advice on here. You worry to much and when you worry you start to overthink everything.
As my first T shot draws nearer, I'm starting to feel that way too because while most before and after pictures tell me otherwise, I think about all the what ifs. What if my face doesn't change much? Will I be able to build more muscle than I ever could when I start T? What if people can still see traces of me being female?
I don't think it's irrational at all. I've been on T almost a year and I still barely ever pass.
I think it is irrational to prejudge how transition will change you in any way. None of us know before hand how we will respond to HRT, etc. To worry about passing or not in the future in my opinion is setting you up for failure without making an attempt.
Quote from: ScottyMac on September 27, 2014, 10:17:06 AM
The general consensus on the internet seems to be that every trans man on testosterone eventually passes. Yet at the back of my mind I think my hands, feet and skull are too small, it'll always be really obvious. I'm worried I'll start testosterone and still look female, but some weird man woman hybrid.
I think that's incredibly irrational. If you like at studies, it's indicative to prolonged exposure to hormones will shift bone density and structure. I was linked to one a while ago, but do not have it on hand. However, the studies are out there.
I hate the word "pass" as it implies some sort of deception. I also do NOT think it's the standard for everything. I know trans people who do not try and "pass". That all said I think in most cases guys are read as male when on T for 1-2 years. OTOH, some people may need a little longer in adolescence which can last as long as 6 years.
I am 5'1", have very small hands and a very slight frame. I also dress in a very unambiguiously male way. I am pretty much 99% read as male. You'd maybe think not.
OTOH, I do hear of guys here and there who are not read as male. Must be other factors. There is a voice app that might help some guys called EVA. Because sometimes it's voice.
--Jay
It's not an irrational fear in my opinion, but that doesn't mean it's true.
Never passing could mean a lot more difficult and possible distressing situations, so there is nothing irrational about the fear itself.
But I have yet to meet a man who doesn't pass at all, at the very least they'd read as male.
I'm not too sure, but gotta think positive dude. Fear is ok and normal, I don't know of any trans person who hasn't been scared when transitioning. It is probable that after HRT transmen will pass, that's all you have to go by until you start T. :)
-Matt
Quote from: supremecatoverlord on September 27, 2014, 11:57:14 AM
I think that's incredibly irrational. If you like at studies, it's indicative to prolonged exposure to hormones will shift bone density and structure. I was linked to one a while ago, but do not have it on hand. However, the studies are out there.
Fascinating. I'd love to see that if you ever remember what it's called.
I really thought I wouldn't pass for a long time...I was really scared and upset. It took me well over a year to pass at all. But now it really isn't an issue anymore. I don't know if there are people who don't ever pass, but I have heard of numerous people who take several years. It's uncommon though.
I don't think its irrational. Before I started T, I didn't think my voice or anything would pass, that it would take forever for it to drop and with no facial hair, I won't be able to pass. Even now, I'm passing more and more, but in my mind I still see that trace of female or afraid I'm a get that pass fail. I think its normal, until we become comfortable with ourselves. Its a long journey, but worth it.
A common concern, yes. Irrational, yes, as the odds are stacked well against the "never pass" scenario. As birkin mentioned, it takes some guys much longer before they are consistently read as male, but never getting there seems unheard of.
I'm self-conscious about my round skull shape and crap like that too. It's too easy to laser-point focus in on this stuff and blow it out of proportion. I cannot recall ever seeing a person that didn't have a few features that would look at home on a person of the opposite sex. Some guys have big lips, or a small frame, fat around the hips, high voice, etc. Some women have a square enough jawline to cause me envy, or big hands, 6 feet tall, deep voice, and so on. Often several such features are present. Being gendered correctly on sight is a matter of tipping the scale one way or another, not about having 100% stereotypically male or female features.
Yeah I would hestitate to use a word like "irrational". It implies that this is a very odd concern that no one has or that it is 100% unlikely. I think the odds are against it, and the longer you are on T the higher the likelihood of being read 100% male. But irrational, no.
--Jay
Hard to say without seeing a picture, the sad fact about transgenders is that some of us WILL have difficulty being recognised as our real genders.
But the flip side of that is that most of us find our own way to pass. Just remember, there are lots of small, slim, smooth skinned cis males out there that you probably already look more male than!
And remember, you will always be your own greatest critic, passing is at least as much about confidence and OWNING it as it is about actual physical appearance.
xx
Quote from: Alice Rogers on September 27, 2014, 06:04:37 PM
Hard to say without seeing a picture, the sad fact about transgenders is that some of us WILL have difficulty being recognised as our real genders.
But the flip side of that is that most of us find our own way to pass. Just remember, there are lots of small, slim, smooth skinned cis males out there that you probably already look more male than!
And remember, you will always be your own greatest critic, passing is at least as much about confidence and OWNING it as it is about actual physical appearance.
xx
Exactly!
Quote from: aleon515 on September 27, 2014, 05:35:22 PM
Yeah I would hestitate to use a word like "irrational". It implies that this is a very odd concern that no one has or that it is 100% unlikely. I think the odds are against it, and the longer you are on T the higher the likelihood of being read 100% male. But irrational, no.
--Jay
I disagree that the word implies it's a very odd concern - we're human, irrational thoughts are part of the package, the trick is how to handle those thoughts. The word merely means it is a concern not grounded in facts/logic.
It's easy to think you'll never be read as male when you're pre-T - but remember, T is an amazing transformative substance. You need only look at before/after shots of people to understand.
Quote from: blink on September 27, 2014, 06:54:56 PM
I disagree that the word implies it's a very odd concern - we're human, irrational thoughts are part of the package, the trick is how to handle those thoughts. The word merely means it is a concern not grounded in facts/logic.
I suppose, I just don't think it indicates "pathology".
--Jay
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on September 27, 2014, 07:31:35 PM
It's easy to think you'll never be read as male when you're pre-T - but remember, T is an amazing transformative substance. You need only look at before/after shots of people to understand.
Those before and after pictures really get me smiling.
You won't know until you try, but the odds are in your favour.
I've got a small head, hands and feet though, and it's obvious to people that I work with that that's the case. We wear hardhats, so they can all see that mine is the very smallest it can the adjusted to, and overhangs my head a lot. I have to wear different gloves because my hands are too small, and my feet are size 5.
Not one person has though I was a girl because of it. We had a joke at the beginning because there was a taller guy with hands almost as small as me and I just threw it back at him and pointed out that at least mine were proportionate. When discussing gloves the storeman said he'd get some "girlie" gloves in, in a tone that suggested he'd never have said that had he known my history.
Small body parts aren't that much of a big deal.
I was in New Balance (shoes) and had to try on women's shoes (it's good as they have identical styles). THe day I came in, the guy said there were 4 other small guys who came in. I am pretty sure I was the only trans guy. There are short guys, go to an airport sometime and of course, we are proportional.
--Jay
I am MTF, but sometimes thinking about my experience as a guy, it reminds me of what I've read of FTM experiences when I would attempt to appear more masculine. When I was trying to look that way, I always felt this pressure to present like I was some tough dude when I'm nothing of the sort. Well for one thing, my hands are very small. Secondly, my feet are size 6 in mens, but I pretty much always wore size 8 with no problems. I'm also very small in general at 5'5" 120 lbs. Nobody ever thought I was anything but born a male despite the fact that I have a lot of feminine features, so no, I don't think any of these things are hangups at all. Wearing less tight clothing always seems to help. Whenever I look in the mirror lately all I see is a female with facial hair, but nobody ever thought I was trans.
I agree with many posts here, I think it is going to be a less than helpful thought to have during transition. Whilst I had an initial thought of "omg, I'll just look like a man in a dress" I soon got over that. And even 3months into HRT I'm seeing and hearing people notice the changes in me which is great. But as my therapist said to me last week, we may need to talk about self image and expectations. It's a bit like a teenage girl for me, going through puberty and worrying whether I look like the other kids, my therapist tells me that's a bit dangerous and can lead to all sorts of problems, as we often see in puberty laden teenagers ;D
Rather than aiming for "how can I pass", I'm focussing more on "how can I blend in". Realistically most people are too busy with their own stuff in life to worry about whether that's actually a dude or a girl.
Like others have said, you won't know until you try. I didn't start passing 100% until over a year on T. As far as hands and feet go, they grow on T. I went from a size 5 shoe to either a 6.5 or a 7. My hands got bigger too. I know because I had to get my bowling balls fitted again after starting T. There is a lot of hope and if you stress about all of it now, it'll make you feel worse than you would otherwise. You don't know the future, just go with it and give it a shot.
You mention that the hands/feet grow on T, is that due to skeletal changes or just increased amount of muscle tissue? Just curious.
Deinewelt, it's variable. If someone's bones have already fused, it's impossible for them to grow longer. It is possible for hands and feet to get wider from extra muscle regardless of whether bones can still lengthen. At my age bone growth is quite unlikely, but my feet have widened enough to necessitate larger shoes. Weight & grip training along with the T has beefed my hands up slightly.
Yeah, I tend to notice, even though I have small hands/feet that they have some muscle on them that I hope drops off after being on HRT for awhile. Thanks!
It is totally odd though, when I lived as a male I literally fooled myself into thinking my shoe size was 8 1/2 or 9 in mens. The reality was I would wear pants that are less tight (bootcut) with these slightly larger shoes in order to create the illusion that I am bigger than I am. The illusion works quite well and even had myself fooled, though I personally never really felt right. It is something pretty much every guy I have ever known does, maybe not with shoes, but they all seem to somehow increase their masculinity the same way woman increase their feminine nature with makeup/clothing etc. Now I like smaller shoes. I think it is so awesome that we are all different and aspire to express ourselves in different ways! Probably the best thing to do is maximize the weaknesses and just leave insecurities behind and you'll pass easily. Nobody ever looks at these things in order to think *are they man?* Mostly it comes down to the muscle mass, body hair, voice, lack of feminine features like curves.
Quote from: Edge on September 27, 2014, 10:37:58 AM
I don't think it's irrational at all. I've been on T almost a year and I still barely ever pass.
I know that this is an old thread, but for the people, such as Edge, who say they were not passing at 1 year on T, did you ever eventually pass?
I ask this because I've been on T for almost 11.5 months. My voice is really deep, I'm not that short, I dress in guy's clothes, and have a man's hairstyle, and everywhere I go, people call me ma'am. I am beginning to worry that I'll never, ever pass and that I'll just end up as someone that is perceived as a very hairy woman with a really deep voice. I would really like to be perceived as male.
I'm hoping that eventually I'll pass. Also, I didn't start medically transitioning until age 55.
I'm okay if the transition is slow, as long as I'll eventually get there.
Nobody can say for sure if and when you will pass but for many of us fat moves around pretty slowly. Some girls develop breasts in 6 months while I was over 4 year before I moved into a A cup. Pretty much the same happened with facial fat.
From what I understand for FTMs on testosterone, water retention is an issue during the first year so your not really seeing your final appearance until well into the second year. Give it another year or so and I suspect you will find your facial appearance has changed more toward the masculine.
I believe it is more than appearence that makes people see you as a man. How do you move? Walk? Mannerism? Study and compare to guys on the street, in coffee shops, in cars etc.
When I see myself I'm a man with a chest. I really hate my chest. People gender me male 50% of the time. I believe you might need to change something about how you walk, move or talk. Don't change too much though, you still need to be you.
My pic here is photoshopped. I have no beard yet. I'm pre T.
Tony
Well, I think it is much more the way I look rather than the way I move, walk, or talk. My face just seems to look like a woman. Pre T you already look more like a guy than I do and I've been on T almost a year!
Hopefully it is as Dena said, that fat redistributes slowly. Unfortunately, I tend to carry a lot of face fat even though I'm not really overweight. I'm 5 foot 7 and weight about 147. I think if I could lose the face fat that would help.
Thanks for your responses.
Quote from: Angelo on September 28, 2017, 08:20:04 PM
Well, I think it is much more the way I look rather than the way I move, walk, or talk. My face just seems to look like a woman. Pre T you already look more like a guy than I do and I've been on T almost a year!
Hopefully it is as Dena said, that fat redistributes slowly. Unfortunately, I tend to carry a lot of face fat even though I'm not really overweight. I'm 5 foot 7 and weight about 147. I think if I could lose the face fat that would help.
Thanks for your responses.
Are you used to wear makeup? I was thinking shades, to accentuate male features in your face. Makeup can do a lot.
I'm no expert in makeup, but I am amazed when I see the transformation a good makeup can do. I have never used makeup myself. But maybe that might work for you?
Some people do have more difficulty passing than others. It's down to your own unique situation and how the T affects your appearance and voice, so not irrational.