Sooooooo, this is me/we.
For 20 years I thought I was just a weird-o,
who could never figure out his sexuality,
with strong feelings that he should be have be born a girl,
but, it's too late for that, there's no way to change it,
(haha, totally unaware of everything at that point).
Around ages 18/19/20, starts stealing femme clothes,
trying on dresses in private,
until BOOM! At 20 he realizes he's a her.
So she's full-time women.
Perfect hair, always shaved,
better dressed and groomed than most her girlfriends.
And while everything is starting to fit so perfectly...
Sometimes it doesn't.
But she fakes it.
Blames it on testosterone.
Even when she's feeling boyish,
Or neither boyish nor girlish,
it's obviously a mistake.
Andddd finally something gives.
And it's clear that me is actually we,
Sometimes he, sometimes she,
Sometimes ne!
So I've started being honest with me,
about who I feel like everyday.
Jayne, Elliot, and sometimes William.
Sometimes is more than one at once,
if I'm being honest.
These last few days William was dominant,
(and I really don't like those times),
And then BOOM! Eyes start watering,
have to sit down, and then Jayne.
So that's the story of me/we.
I'm feeling a little terminally unique.
Anyone else relate?
A bit yeah. I'm not completely sure I switch though since I know I have to physically transition, I need to be on testosterone, and I get pissed off if people think of me as less of a guy than any other guy.
But sometimes, I feel more female and/or a combination of both. The part I have trouble explaining is that this has no effect on my outward presentation or behaviour and it has nothing to do with gender roles.
When I was first exploring my gender, I felt like I switched a lot. I felt unhappy whenever I felt female because I was afraid that meant I'd regret transitioning and that the female me would be just as dysphoric in a more male body as male me is in a female body, but I've gotten happier the further I do transition.
I'm still afraid that people will see me as less of a guy, as more feminine, and basically as someone I'm not. I get this a lot unfortunately, including from non-binary people.
I also feel unique (in a lonely way).
a guy who's a guy even when he feels like a woman? or is that a bad way to put it, edge?
i experience something close to it (though probably not the same), wanting to always be seen or as a guy, but also wanting some space to act just the way i feel even when that is a little more feminine than what's normally considered manly. it works online, people just assume i'm gay and then get confused when i start talking about girls... offline i'm always seen as a woman, people give me odd looks when i fail at talking like one though.
i did conaider male transitionbut after think a whole lot and a little bit more, i decided to just be me. even if that means i won't be allowed to transition. or maybe it will mean that i'll lie in order to be allowed to transition in the future.
it's difficult when i'm not consistently male or female.
usually you'd think that the natural choice is between a male and female body, but when i get a little weirdthe natural choice seems to me like it's between hermaphrodite and neuter. something that would makes it easier for people to understand that seeing me as primarily male or female is wrong. having to choose is such a stipid rule when i just want to be me. swithing between one or the other or nothing at all, or maybe both if that's what suits me best.
Quote from: Taka on September 27, 2014, 07:45:39 PM
a guy who's a guy even when he feels like a woman? or is that a bad way to put it, edge?
That's a good way to put it.
Quote from: Taka on September 27, 2014, 07:45:39 PMi experience something close to it (though probably not the same), wanting to always be seen or as a guy, but also wanting some space to act just the way i feel even when that is a little more feminine than what's normally considered manly.
Personally, I don't think that's close to it at all. At least, not to mine since I find it incredibly insulting when people assume my gender(s) have anything to do with femininity or manliness.
Quote from: Edge on September 27, 2014, 08:04:14 PM
Personally, I don't think that's close to it at all. At least, not to mine since I find it incredibly insulting when people assume my gender(s) have anything to do with femininity or manliness.
i see, bad wording. thank you for telling me so nicely when i'm making bad mistakes.
i realize your genders don't have the slightest thing to do with femininity or manliness. so my experience is not close at all, but just very easy to confuse with your experience. the only thing similar seems to be that we want to be seen as a guy, i think. can i say that, or is that also totally off the mark?
my own gender(s) don't seem to have much to do with femininity or masculinity. one sense of maleness is much more femme than another sense of womanliness which would probably be seen as way too masculine to be attractive. my behavior changes unpredictably, and i'm still not convinced it's in accordance with experienced gender. maybe leveling out my hormones one way or the other would make me feel different about it all.
I always knew that I was female bodied and I have zero desire to not be seen as female bodied, however I exist in a place where I play with my gender expression and my gender identity is feminine but not so much that I identify as fully female and a woman. I like being called she and really don't like it when I get called he.
Desiring to be physically have the body of the opposite sex doesn't always mean that you have to 100% identify with the gender normally associated with that physical sex.
Quote from: Edge on September 27, 2014, 01:28:38 PM
I felt unhappy whenever I felt female because I was afraid that meant I'd regret transitioning and that the female me would be just as dysphoric in a more male body as male me is in a female body
This is exactly how I've been feeling lately, and it's super scary. I'm glad I'm not the only one, but sorry you have to go through it too.
How did you eventually come to a sense of peace with your fluidity, if you have?
Quote from: Taka on September 28, 2014, 03:29:52 AM
the only thing similar seems to be that we want to be seen as a guy, i think. can i say that, or is that also totally off the mark?
Yeah that's right.
I want to be seen as a guy because I am a guy. Unfortunately, there's this idea that gender is one spectrum and it's one spectrum for everybody and if you're a little bit something else, you have to be less of another thing. This isn't the case for me.
Quote from: troyboi on September 29, 2014, 01:27:52 PMThis is exactly how I've been feeling lately, and it's super scary. I'm glad I'm not the only one, but sorry you have to go through it too.
How did you eventually come to a sense of peace with your fluidity, if you have?
I have and haven't. I am now certain that I need to transition because the dysphoria got too bad not to and every step I took towards transitioning has made me much happier. Female me (if she's real and not just a persona I invented) agreed that I need to transition.
I haven't quite come to peace with my fluidity for a few reasons: I don't know if I actually am, I'm afraid people would take it to mean that I am less than 100% guy and I tend to react badly to that because I am 100% guy regardless of what else I may be, and I'm sick to death of people assuming that anything about me has anything to do with illogical social constructs that I am sick of hearing about, but that's the conclusion many people come to.
Quote from: troyboi on September 29, 2014, 01:27:52 PM
This is exactly how I've been feeling lately, and it's super scary. I'm glad I'm not the only one, but sorry you have to go through it too.
How did you eventually come to a sense of peace with your fluidity, if you have?
That is a scary feeling, and part of why I am not transitioning. I am becoming more at peace with my fluidity, I think it mainly just takes time, and a mindset that it is just how I am. There just is not a single point on the spectrum that fully represents who I am now, there perhaps was one at one time when I was a gender non-conforming child, I don't know that I want to restrict myself to that point either, it's kinda fun being a girl at times, it's kinda fun being mixed at times, and it's even fun being a guy at times.
The desire to be 100% guy is because the most manly man is considered by many to be the best for whatever stupid reason. I too feel this desire, and I can be if I want or need to be, though not because someone else thinks I should be.
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on September 29, 2014, 09:12:09 PMThe desire to be 100% guy is because the most manly man is considered by many to be the best for whatever stupid reason. I too feel this desire, and I can be if I want or need to be, though not because someone else thinks I should be.
Or maybe one desires to be seen as 100% guy because he
is 100% guy, is well aware that pretty much no one considers the kind of man he is the best or even good, and would be insulted by the idea of basing
any part of himself on what other people think.
The idea of all genders being on only one spectrum may help some people, but I think it's problematic precisely because it leads people to believe and insist that I can't be who I am and that I have to sacrifice part of who I am to have another part of who I am. F that.
i'll just keep insisting that male and female are two different scales.
you can be 30% male and 70% female, which definitely looks like one piint at the same scale. but there's also a possibility of being maybe 10% male and 7% female, or 100% male and 34% female, and those can't be found as one point on the same scale. they're different scales, and one doesn't negate the other in any way. They can't fill each other in either, one who is neither male noer female, will end up rather genderless. and one who is closer to 100% of each, would be somewhat bigender. i have a feeling though that there is even more to this picture, and explaining gender as a spectrum will prove pointless in the future.
i both do and don't have a desire to look 100% like a guy. i might have to compromise with myself in the end. but where it matters, i'd prefer to be treated as a man. i don't care about name or pronouns or whatever, as long as people just unconsciously place me in that "male" box of theirs.
Fluidity is a funny thing with me, so is gender not being static. Moving around. Mine is social, be anything I want to. With full hormone A cups, I can be absolutly any presentation that feels comfortable and authentic.
Taka speaks of percentages where they are for example only 100% male and equally 100% female. I think with me, I dont actually move accross spectrum from blue to pink, actually I never reach blue, and never reach pink either, but there is a blending like a tie dye shirt over my heart.
Core is important to me, seeking this first, and then the rest begins to come clear, for me. Core gender is more than gender, it is the totality of who we are, the rigorous honesty of self appraisal, self knowledge of us. From that we see where dysphoria goes, where expressions go, where adaptations go. We can observe and watch our feelings shift and our bodies change. It is a quiet place, Ativan's sense of self.... my sense one of spirit and soul, we all have different names for it but it is the same thing.
It is our very essence as people and as trans. Then the layers and the facets start coming in.
Finding the core, to me, is everything.
Blessings
Nails out hair down heart wide open
Satinjoy
I'm much more concerned with what I think of me, than what others think of me.
I have no need to raise or lower myself to their expectations.
They are pretentious in their ideas and ideals.
I know who I am, if they are concerned, it is because they don't know who they are and have a need to compare to find out.
They judge others by judging themselves with comparisons.
Stop comparing yourself to others and you will soon be able to see yourself clearly enough.
Don't bring other peoples baggage along on your journey, you have enough of your own.
You already have what you need right now, to let it begin as your own.
Take it to where you are going to be, not where others think you should be.
It's your journey, not their's, they have their own to take.
Leave their fears behind, get rid of the ones you don't need.
It's our fears that keep us grounded, learn to soar.
Ativan
I have always felt Androgynous at my core.
But forced myself to act male, not overly so, not to fake interest in things I don't like.
Now that I have let go even a little bit I find my mental gender floats back and forth like a pendulum, and weird as that sounds, it is natural for me and feels right.
Now I just need to get my physicality to a neutral androgynous point and I think I will be good. :)
- Jaded Jade (So I guess I cannot respond to personal messages until I get to 15 posts or something...?)
yeah, i think it's 15.
the pendulum is real and natural. doesn't wound weird at all.
you can even make clocks with pendulums. kind of interesting to see how if it is undisturbed, it will swing in a pattern that tells time.
The hardest part of gender fluidity for is when the parts of my body that make me dysphoric change. Makes it hard to decide what medical interventions I should pursue, or if I should have any
I think that as a smack dab in the middle NB/Androgyne at my core, Pan, and aiming towards androgynous physicality, and that is an advantage for me.
Neither extreme of the pendulum is that far off for me so far, and the middle is bliss.
At the M and F sides I just enjoy everything that is matches, and am patient with what doesn't. Because I am never far from having like the other parts, or matching them again. (But I never dislike any of them, I know some do...)
It is cyclical, and very natural and organic feeling.
Think like water. The cycling of the tides. The changes of the seasons.
If you are gender fluid let go, and go with the flow. There is richness in the experience and constantly shifting perspective. You will see, perceive, and feel more from a changing perspective than a fixed one. Don't try and force it to be something that it is not. Find the centre of your personal swing and stand at that point, and sway with your personal pendulum.
When I chatted with my wife about this she brought up the concept of Two-Spirited people. And asked if my nature has helped me with meditation. It most certainly has. There are things that come trivially to me that people locked into one binary or the other seem to struggle with.
Maybe try some meditation? Stop trying to be anything in particular, just be? Stop trying to force a fixed understanding on it, just enjoy the motion?
Like swinging on a swing?
- Jaded (Who might be too zenned out right now to make any sense...) Jade
Quote from: Edge on September 29, 2014, 09:53:14 PM
Or maybe one desires to be seen as 100% guy because he is 100% guy, is well aware that pretty much no one considers the kind of man he is the best or even good, and would be insulted by the idea of basing any part of himself on what other people think.
The idea of all genders being on only one spectrum may help some people, but I think it's problematic precisely because it leads people to believe and insist that I can't be who I am and that I have to sacrifice part of who I am to have another part of who I am. F that.
I think you, and many are confusing spectrum with continuum, the color spectrum, and what it most often refers to has three inputs, not two, so it's not like shades of gray, but something else that also includes black and white, but also blue, red, and yellow, and the many combinations of those like purple, teal, and salmon...but I tend to think the gender spectrum has at least four inputs, masculinity, femininity, time, and location. What's even considered to be the perfect 100% guy varies by time and location...and also who you ask...
That said, the idea of there being more than one spectrum is something to ponder...
Masculinity and femininity are not the same as male and female. I fail to see how time, location, or illogical social categories that have no basis in biology or reality have anything to do with one's identity. Unless they're one of those people base their identity on other people's opinions instead of themselves, but I don't understand why anyone would do that unless they're mentally unhealthy.
Spectrum: "used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points" -the dictionary on my laptop
Not to mention the fact that this definition is, as far as I can tell, the one used by the people, yourself included, who say or insinuate that I can't be who I am. Why else would they?
i kind of both understand and don't understand. you being male might be some of the same as me being "other", for a lack of any better term for it. it's not on a continuum, could only be found classifiable in a 3d spectrum. seems to still be a spectrum even if there are three lines that intersect in some common zero. 2d spectrums are often used in phonetics, so they do exist for sure. but i still don't want anyone to say that X x Y = MyGender, read out of a spectrum where x is femibinity and y is masculinity.
me being "other" also often means i gave no idea what masculinity or femininity really are. male or female interests or hobbies or special abilities are even weirder. it keeps surprising me that all the electricians i meet are men. maybe it's just a weird thing in my family, but i always assumed women would be better at it. just like how more men know how to sew on a button.
gender or sex can be distinctly male or female or something else or all the other options. but that's as far as clarity goes. for everything else, i currently doubt there is anything like a spectrum of femininity or masculinity. it's just a bunch of definitions that not enough people dare to defy. so people sort them and group them like they see others do, then count them and make up percentages.
edge can be what he is. male at all times, an absolute, not something to be broken down into percentages. and whatever else he is at any given time, is just something in addition to being male. nothing which negates it, or makes it less.
and i'll just be me, with no female or male tag. i will defy any definitions of femininity or masculinity, nothing is what it looks like,and nothing will make me choose either or for a gender. i don't even want to talk about percentages anymore. i'm a guy or a woman when it fits me, but never male or female. i think it's just a mindset, a point of view to speak from, not anything that can define my gender in either binary category.
do tell me though, if i managed to insult you again, edge.
i think i got the idea right in my head this time, but words are slippery things, i'm not sure i managed them well.
i'll correct myself according to your directions as many times as it takes to at leeast not get this wrong.
You got it right. :)
Quote from: Jaded Jade on October 02, 2014, 10:39:22 PM
I think that as a smack dab in the middle NB/Androgyne at my core, Pan, and aiming towards androgynous physicality, and that is an advantage for me.
Neither extreme of the pendulum is that far off for me so far, and the middle is bliss.
At the M and F sides I just enjoy everything that is matches, and am patient with what doesn't. Because I am never far from having like the other parts, or matching them again. (But I never dislike any of them, I know some do...)
It is cyclical, and very natural and organic feeling.
Think like water. The cycling of the tides. The changes of the seasons.
If you are gender fluid let go, and go with the flow. There is richness in the experience and constantly shifting perspective. You will see, perceive, and feel more from a changing perspective than a fixed one. Don't try and force it to be something that it is not. Find the centre of your personal swing and stand at that point, and sway with your personal pendulum.
When I chatted with my wife about this she brought up the concept of Two-Spirited people. And asked if my nature has helped me with meditation. It most certainly has. There are things that come trivially to me that people locked into one binary or the other seem to struggle with.
Maybe try some meditation? Stop trying to be anything in particular, just be? Stop trying to force a fixed understanding on it, just enjoy the motion?
- Jaded (Who might be too zenned out right now to make any sense...) Jade
Good thread, thank you OP. I had underestimated my fluidity, I had been under such strain to be things that I was not and could never be.
I wrote my original post when I was feeling very Femme/Andro.
Now I am feeling more purely male than I have felt for YEARS. Despite the hormones.
I am still me, my opinions are still the same.
Even drifted back into a masculine mindset I still feel more at peace and whole than I have in 25 years. Any doubts about my path are dissipating. Even thinking in boy mode the small physical changes are welcome, and needed.
I have a ways to go, I am still at the start of my journey, but I think I finally beating my GD.
I feel like I am dancing with myself, all three of me.
- Jaded Jade
JJ
Enjoy the dance. I think that it will be awesome
Aisla
Quote from: Edge on October 04, 2014, 06:44:01 PM
You got it right. :)
finally. that's good.
takes a whole lot of thinking to get it. because apparent similarities can hide different truths.
i've bren thinking even more since yesterday.
this is a really weird thing, and the explanation keeps changing.
i was so sure i wanted to be seen as male. but that can't be right if i keep wanting to not be seen as either binary, not even a both or in between. not a neither either, for i have gender. it's just other. i want that option, and wish it had a proper name.
but then, i also want to be treated the same way as a man, so that must be why i thought i wanted to be seen as male. i was just sticking with the binaries, and if those two are the options people will give me, i choose male. with some leeway to act and talk like a woman when that is what i am or speak or act as. but i don't want that to tag me as female.
i'm so tired of all this gendering.
buying gifts for kids is horrible. they tend to be so stereotypical, it's frustrating.
would be much better if i got to know what they actually like.
Quote from: Edge on October 04, 2014, 08:49:23 AM
Masculinity and femininity are not the same as male and female. I fail to see how time, location, or illogical social categories that have no basis in biology or reality have anything to do with one's identity. Unless they're one of those people base their identity on other people's opinions instead of themselves, but I don't understand why anyone would do that unless they're mentally unhealthy.
Spectrum: "used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points" -the dictionary on my laptop
Not to mention the fact that this definition is, as far as I can tell, the one used by the people, yourself included, who say or insinuate that I can't be who I am. Why else would they?
I never meant to insinuate that you can't be who you are. I think you should be, and already are, who you are. I do think that time and location do play a role, mainly because I feel like I can be way more feminine now publicly than I could be 20 years ago, but I couldn't be that way even now in rural Texas, for example...perhaps another 20 years...or 50...
I live with both a male and female side. Earlier On my journey I was a little bit fluid with my male side being between 30%-60% and my female side being between 65%-80% but there was one painful experience that brought both my male & female sides over 80%.
these days I'm fairly stable with him being about 35% and her being about 75%.
my presentation 95% of the time is bearded lady, the last 5% of the time I'm wearing an outfit that looks male on one side (My left) and female on the other. Its kinda suprising to me that the half and half outfit seems more acceptable to society then my (preferred) Bearded Lady look