Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello everyone!  :)

I've decided on an open topic to encourage discussion on how you explain your non-binary identities to others.

Do you explain your identity in simple terms? Or do you use complex words? How does this pan out? 

This question encourages discussion on whether simple vs. complex approach is more suitable when confiding in others about non-binary identities. Do you throw lots of information at them or slowly explain little by little until they can digest it?

Do you find it is easy or hard? Do you get defensive if people do not understand right away? Do you understand if they need time to adjust to understanding or accepting views that a quite different from what they are used to?

Lastly, I understand that there will be people who will most likely never understand despite how much explanation and education is done, it is understandable after all... Nobody can really know what another person goes through unless they have been through it themselves. Even then, the situations and feelings involved won't always be similar.

That being said, even if people do not understand, I hope that they will be able to at least, accept your non-binary identity and treat you with respect (just as you would with their identities, cis or otherwise, I would hope!)

I am admittedly biased when presenting this question. I am a huge fan of keep explanations fairly simple. I stick to common terms that people understand or at the very least, have heard of before. If I have to explain a bit of my history in order to show how coming to my current identity makes sense, I do not mind this at all - as I have probably blabbered my story all over Susan's by now!  ;)

First example: I came out as non-binary to my friends on Facebook. I detailed right back to high-school (many of my FB friends knew I was struggling with depression and identity issues then) and it had a positive outcome. Some of my friends commented on the status and said they were happy for me and that you don't always usually figure yourself out right the first time. That sometimes, it takes a few tries. And it's true! I thought I had myself all figured out when I was 18, ha, boy, was I wrong!

Second example: I explained non-binary (more specifically, being genderless & sexless) to my best friend, she was curious and although she doesn't quite understand my desire to be physically sexless but she accepts it and didn't judge. :) I basically told her that you have male and female on a line and in the middle, there is androgyny. I present as androgynous but my gender identity is neither male, female or androgyne. I'm well aware gender is more than a simple line but I did not want to risk confusing my best friend as going into the route of gender being as vast as the universe (my favorite line ever) would most likely confuse her, rather than educate her.

Has anyone had any experiences in explaining non-binary identities to others? Positive or negative, it doesn't matter - if you feel it will contribute to the topic, by all means, type away, my dear friends! Just be sure to respect one another and have fun!

Jacey  :icon_bunch:

I usually keep it simple when I'm talking to people. If I hear someone misgender a non-binary person that I know they know about, I politely correct them and leave it at that. For my own gender(s), I just tell people I'm a guy because I am and I have trouble even explaining it to non-binary people.

It depends on who I am talking to. If they are a close friend or family member, I am more willing to have an extended conversation on the matter. If they are an acquaintance or relative stranger, they get a short and sweet answer that goes something like this: "Gender is a spectrum, with male on one end and female on the other. I'm in the middle." And leave it at that.

For people that are close to me, I take more time to explain. I may start of with the bit about being in the middle, but then answer their question and fill in the blanks. The biggest one I get is, "Doesn't that just make you a tomboy?" I usually respond by explaining that a tomboy is still female, and that identity doesn't fit, like a coat that is to narrow across the shoulders. I can wear it for a little while, but it starts to be uncomfortable and restraining. I also take that opportunity to explain my dysphoria. Bear in mind though, this detailed of a conversation only happens when someone is close enough to me to want to ask good questions.

To be honest I haven't really tried explaining things to anyone other than my partner and another close friend, but they're both non-binary as well so it's not exactly challenging. As for the wider world, I'm happy to be called 'she', want to be seen as female bodied, but just don't identify as a binary female, I have a tendency to wear my queerness in terms of how I dress, my hair style etc and switch between being very femme and very tom boy while usually existing in a somewhat androgynous middle ground.

Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 28, 2014, 09:50:16 AM
I present as androgynous but my gender identity is neither male, female or androgyne.

Quote from: Sarah7 on September 28, 2014, 12:13:12 PM
I tend to disclose very limited amounts of information about the subject. I prefer to let people get used to me and draw their own conclusions.

Quote from: Rowan on September 28, 2014, 12:26:55 PMIf they are an acquaintance or relative stranger, they get a short and sweet answer that goes something like this: "Gender is a spectrum, with male on one end and female on the other. I'm in the middle." And leave it at that.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 28, 2014, 01:13:13 PM
To be honest I haven't really tried explaining things to anyone other than my partner and another close friend, but they're both non-binary as well so it's not exactly challenging.

I am not trying to stir anything up I just have a thought to express.

As the quotes show above there seems to be a reluctance to talk about being non binary. Most said they really don't talk about it or go into detail with anyone. This is exactly the reason our two communities do not understand each other. I came to this topic hoping to see how others explain it so I could understand it. Not one post was clear or had any information I could use to figure this out. I am trying, but if it is not talked about amongst yourselves how in the world can I get a grasp on it. Do you see the problem? I will watch this topic and hope someone gives me the information I can use to understand your community. Until then I am still in the dark. I am trying though.  :)

We are such unique individuals.  Many of us are somewhere on a non linear spectrum where it does become a challenge to find solidarity and support for a transition that others cannot clearly understand. 

I know I am not a man and also do not claim to be a woman but "girl" suggests elements of growth that I do relate to.  Sometimes I consider the word hybrid but usually define myself simply as a transgender person.  If asked, I explain my transitioning is toward the feminine but really working to be true to myself.  I likely appear androgynous to some and that's a fine term too.  I acted like a boy and man and really never felt like one.  Now i feel able to embrace elements of masculinity and femininity within myself.  I do feel like a more feminine person and still want to leave the door open for personal growth and descriptors that I may yet want to own.  It's a journey and I enjoy the ride even without a distinct destination.

Often for me the reasons are practical and pragmatic.  Had my transition taken place as a teenager without multiple decades of male socialization or perhaps if I was completely passable I would feel different.  But i honor my past and future by including all of my life.  I never want to live in fear of being outed and one way is to be forthright about being trans and queer.  Gender and gender roles have a cultural weight that now starts even before birth with ultrasound announcements.  Those cultural expectations get shaken up by people like us and I want the world to get accustomed to a greater depth and breadth of human identity and experience.  We're here, we're queer, get used to it!

Quote from: Tessa James on September 28, 2014, 02:58:31 PM
We're here, we're queer, get used to it!

I am trying to do that. I would not put so much energy into asking if I was not trying to grasp the definition or feelings of non binaries.

I suppose I will just have to give up. I have tried to understand, but no one has given me a clear picture. I suppose this means our two communities will live in confusion of each other as usual. I will no longer ask for help with this.  :(

Jessica

Because the non binary identity is so distinct from a non binary identity folk from either group will struggle to understand the other.  While I applaud your efforts and hope that you continue to read and to try to understand our lived experience this will be a challenge.

For non binaries the only identity that is relevant is our own.  Our journey is for self understanding, acceptance and usually, but not necessarily for expression.  We do not accept and implicitly reject the arbitrary, reductionist and simplistic binary categories available as options or self descriptors of gender in cis society because they don't capture or allow us to fully describe ourselves.  To merely use the descriptors that are used to identify as a male or as a female seems inappropriate, clumsy and a forced fit when you may be a combination of these or of other descriptors.

To the OP's question I explain that for me  while every non binary identity will usually differ by individual, non binary folk select identifiers or descriptors that seek to express who we are without concern as to whether they only come from a blue or a pink bucket.  They could come from both, from neither or from elsewhere.  Similarly a non binary identity could be fixed, blended or fluid.  We don't try to overthink this.  We feel our way.  We seek and adopt an identity which fully or at least best describes who we are and our lived experience.  It is more complex than choosing option A or option B but that is my reality.

Safe travels

Aisla

Jessica, it can be helpful to understand, but I don't think it's critical. I just lump it in with other things that can seem to only be understandable from the inside, monogamy, single sex attraction. I think it's more important to be accepting that others truly are that way and likely not by choice. The hardest for me is to understand those who can take HRT or leave it alone. The way I'm wired I'm a raging mess and of suppressed anger and anxiety without it. But, I fully understand that not everyone is like me, needing one hormone and suffering from the other.

So yes, this topic seems to generate some special intrigue and perhaps some consternation too.  Do we need to fully understand a person to accept their reality is very different but as valuable as our own?  It has taken me forever to get this far so late in life.   I do not know how to explain the feeling of being non gender or gender free.  We can't expect it would be easy for people to relate to where any transgender person is coming from, especially when we have vague goals such as personal growth, acceptance, congruity, and fulfillment.  As the love songs say, you can't make someone feel love if they don't feel it themselves?

I don't feel like a man or a woman.  I often do feel feminine and really enjoy the luxurious sense it gives me.  Being feminine feels genuine for me.  Presenting ambiguously or androgynously seems to be getting more common in the states and gives me a sense of freedom.  Who needs the fashion and gender police?  It's OK with me if people don't know, can't tell or are confused.  I feel clear about being myself.

Far easier to simply say I am a woman or man but only if it's true for you eh? 

So does it help to think of non binary as a mix, an amalgam, a jumbled set of life's ingrediants that are still fluid, shifting and uncertain...... ??

I'm out of this and any further conversations until this is resolved to my satisfaction.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 28, 2014, 03:37:46 PM
Is it a requirement that we teach binaries who can't figure something out?

I was only hoping to understand it so I could help others with accurate and educated knowledge. No one learns anything without questions. Part of me wanting to fully understand it comes from my career as a Paramedic. When we were being instructed, for example, in the cardiac system I wanted to know everything possible about it and how it functions. That made me far more efficient in dealing with those types of emergencies. I am intelligent and understand most things quite well, thank you. To insult my intelligence is not a way to bring us together. I was really hoping to learn from all of you to be clear and knowledgeable. I am sorry by asking questions it makes me look stupid and unable to grasp the concept of non binary. How else does one learn though?  :(

Jessica, how do you describe something that falls out side the norms of conventional cis sexist binary thinking? How can I explain that while I feel feminine, I don't view myself as being masculine or having male aspects to my being. Already I've stepped out of a simple 2 dimensional gender spectrum, and the social norm that is binary thinking often finds the concept of a spectrum hard to deal with. I had my fill of explaining why I wanted to transgress the concept of the cis binary back when I originally transitioned, and given that I'm happy to be seen as female bodied and be referred to as she, it's just easier to navigate the world like that. This could well change, I'm still exploring things.

As it has already been said, understanding something is not a prerequisite of accepting it as valid.

I accept totally all non binaries, but part of me would like to understand. I have never said I do not accept non binaries. It is like when you meet a new friend though. You want to know all about them, hope, dreams, goals, etc. That is all I am saying. I wonder why my being curious is looked at as some attempt to discredit, put down or undermine?  To me non binary is simply something I have never been expose to and I would like to see the thought process and body image issue's they face. ???

Quote from: Sarah7 on September 28, 2014, 04:15:47 PM
This is meant to be a safe space for non-binaries to post about their experiences and the ways they communicate. I should be able to do that without being told I'm doing it wrong.

I never once said you were wrong and YES I did not see that particular post. People are free to be who and what they are. I was just hoping to understand it better. Would your community like that approach or instant judgment? I am trying so hard to be respectful, thus the questions.

Sarah, I just read your post and got a lot out of it. Thank you. That is all I was asking for.  :)

Jessica I did not mean to imply that you didn't accept non-binary realities as valid, just that for a lot of non-binary folk while we know what we feel and experience, that it's then a struggle to find the language to adequately explain that externally. This is an example of how binary thinking affects the ability of non-binary individuals too, it limits all of us, even if we exist outside it, just because we are immersed in it from birth.

At ease troops I am leaving this to you now. I still value all of you and call you friends and family.  :)

I'm out of this and any further conversations until this is resolved to my satisfaction.

Most of my friends have seen my transition to girly, which I usually present as.
"So you're a boy who wants to be a girl?"
"Well, I identify as a girl, most of the time, despite my anatomy. Sometimes I feel like a boy, sometimes I don't feel like either, but you can call me Jayne for simplicity."
"... Wha?" or "Oh, I get it (no, I don't)."
Ok, maybe I haven't had to best luck explaining it.
But with my close friends, if they ask me how I'm doing, I'll let them know if it was a William day, or Elliot day, or Jayne day. They seem to be understanding a bit more with time.
Today, my friend noticed my voice was higher and asked me if I was on estrogen...
After explaining that's not how it works...
She kind of started to understand three days ago, when we talked last was a William day,
and today is a Jayne day (:
BAH! hehe

Er... This may just be me, but I think if one understands one trans person, then they understand one trans person (binary or nonbinary). What it means to be trans and what it means to be any particular gender(s) or none is pretty personal and depends on the individual. The same terms mean different things to different people.
If that makes sense.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 28, 2014, 01:44:20 PM

I am not trying to stir anything up I just have a thought to express.

As the quotes show above there seems to be a reluctance to talk about being non binary. Most said they really don't talk about it or go into detail with anyone. This is exactly the reason our two communities do not understand each other. I came to this topic hoping to see how others explain it so I could understand it. Not one post was clear or had any information I could use to figure this out. I am trying, but if it is not talked about amongst yourselves how in the world can I get a grasp on it. Do you see the problem? I will watch this topic and hope someone gives me the information I can use to understand your community. Until then I am still in the dark. I am trying though.  :)

Jessica I COMPLETELY understand what you are trying to say. I don't think I expressed myself well in my original reply. If someone seems to be genuinely interested in listening, I am more than willing to try and explain my identity to the best of my ability. The issue I (and probably a lot of other folks) run into is that explaining a non-binary gender identity can be really emotionally exhausting. It can often seem like many cisgendered people, even within queer circles, don't really want to put forth the effort to understand. That can feel incredibly invalidating. My experience with binary trans* people is that they are more willing to try to understand, which is wonderful, but they still sometimes have difficulty understanding.

I am going to try to answer your question a little more specifically. I am Genderqueer. That means that I do not identify with the sex I was assigned at birth, female, nor do I identify as a (trans) male. My gender presentation often fluctuates with how I am feeling on a particular day. It means that I experience dysphoria, sometimes in different ways on different days (for example, yay boobs on Tuesday, why the hell are these here on Wednesday.) It means that a part of me cringes whenever someone refers to me as "she," but I don't really want to be referred to as "he" either.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 28, 2014, 01:44:20 PM
I am not trying to stir anything up I just have a thought to express.

As the quotes show above there seems to be a reluctance to talk about being non binary.

Quote from: EchelonHuntI present as androgynous but my gender identity is neither male, female or androgyne.

Jessica,

Please let me clarify this post more because it appears you may have misunderstood my original post :) I had told my friend that I present as androgynous because that is my gender expression to the world that I enjoy expressing, however my gender identity is genderless, hence being neither male, female or androgyne. A genderless (or any non-binary for that matter!) can have a gender expression of female, male, androgynous, gender-neutral or they may create their own gender expression entirely.

Gender Identity =/= Gender Expression.

I was born into this world as a biological premature female with androgenisation, a condition where my female anatomy downstairs resembled a boy's, a large clitoris that resembled a tiny penis and large labia majora that could pass for a scrotum. This appearance downstairs prompted me to grow up believing I was a boy. Puberty smacked me in the face with the reality that I was going to grow up into a woman. I was horrified but put aside the boy identity and tried my best to conform to the rules of society. I failed miserably and this brought on depression and suicidal thoughts that continued until I was 18. I thought, if I saw no future as a woman, why not try being a man? 

After all, the FtM surgeries had what I desired (removal of female breasts and genitalia) that I was denied as a biological female because, "You might regret it and want children someday." The decision over my body had been decided by doctors - I had no say in this matter, I felt it was unfair. I thought I was male, no, I convinced myself I was male. For six years, I believed this to be true until after four years on testosterone, I got slammed with intense body dysphoria for passing as a male. Yes, you read that correctly! That and a relationship where my partner put unrealistic expectations on me, expecting me to be a walking example of a sexist, hyper-masculine cis-guy - something I am not, I had to question myself and my gender identity...!

I came to learn that trying to live as female or male, both brought me misery and only alienated me further from the concept of both. I found I identified as ... neither. I realized then that I must be genderless. I was incorrect in my assumption that if I had to remove my female breasts and genitalia, that I must be a man. No, no, I couldn't be further from the truth!

It meant I desired to be physically sexless.

Having a genderless identity, a sexless body and presenting in an androgynous manner to the world... this is me. After 24 years, I have finally found myself and have never been happier.

Jessica, I do not expect you to understand this. I am not reluctant in explaining to others about being non-binary - many of my FB friends know this story as I have told them on the aforementioned FB status and my best friend knows the brief version of this as well.

This topic was originally created as I wanted to get a genuine idea of how non-binaries explain their identities to others. As expressed in the original post, I am well aware there will be people who cannot understand such a concept no matter how much they read.

It may be that there never will be a magical explanation that will suddenly make non-binaries make sense to you. If it doesn't make a lick of sense now, it's likely that it may never will. It doesn't mean you have to stop trying to understand though.

For example, I can understand FtMs in their desires for top surgery/bottom surgery, their body dysphoria but I cannot understand their desires to be seen as men or masculine. I can understand MtFs in their desires for laser hair removal/electrolysis/VFS, their dysphoria over their voice, their interest in make-up but I cannot understand their desires to be seen as women or feminine.

Just like I cannot understand the concept behind love, sex, relationships, marriage, family and having children.

It does not mean I reject these ideals, it just means I simply do not understand them but I accept them for what they are and I won't judge others for liking those ideals, as long as they do not push these ideals onto me.  :) I may ask others their feelings behind their ideals in order to try to understand why they prefer such ideals but it is not crucial to understand their motives/reasoning behind their chosen ideals, as I cannot comprehend the ideal itself.

I came to being non-binary via what started out as a fairly normal MTF transition. But there came a point where I realised I'd climbed out of one box (Man) that didn't fit and was trying to jam myself into another box (Woman) that also didn't fit.

I wear the label woman, because it prevents explanations and is close enough.. Certainly closer than man. But in the end, neither is 100% accurate.

Quote from: Edge on September 28, 2014, 09:55:55 PM
Er... This may just be me, but I think if one understands one trans person, then they understand one trans person (binary or nonbinary). What it means to be trans and what it means to be any particular gender(s) or none is pretty personal and depends on the individual. The same terms mean different things to different people.
If that makes sense.

Yeah, this

It starts with being true to yourself and fully embracing the truth that you are nonbinary.

Then, living authentically in the full power of who you are.

Then in that authenticity becoming bullet proof when your gender is question so that it no longer even matters, for what you are is what you are, and if questioned, we are still secure in who we are.  Some will understand, most will not.

Finally, in that authenticity we describe our trans experience.  Some can put themselves into our shoes, some cannot.  However, calling truth invalid is dead wrong, and triggers all hell.

We all have our own truth and that truth must be respected.

How do I explain my identity?

I live it.  There are plenty of posts that reveal who I am, transparently, vulnerably, and authentically.

I just am.  Those that can accept, will, those that cannot, wont. 

So, I remain, genderqueer, genderfluid, mtf trans, gender free, and no op.  With a core that remains integrated and is still assimilating all of these components, originally lost by repression, fear, anger, all the cluttered emotions that stop us from knowing ourselves and allow us to self decieve, which is the beginning of trans disaster.

My  truth is not to be disrespected.  Questions can be asked, and explanations given, but to be put on the defensive is unacceptable.  I do it to no one and I expect no one to do it to me.

Satinjoy is back.

Nails out, hair down, heart wide open.

1. I start by explaining that non-binary people exist.

"There are some people whose understanding of their own gender place them neither as completely male nor completely female."

2. If someone is curious, I explain all the ways that non-binary gender can be experienced. E.g. Agender, two-spirit, genderfluid, demigirl/demiguy, bigender, neutrois, etc

3. If I am close to them and trust them, I will occasionally give a glimpse of my own gender.

"Yes, I want to be seen and interacted with as a female. But I've never seen myself as completely female. There is a part of me that still thinks of myself as male."

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 28, 2014, 03:37:46 PM
Is it a requirement that we teach binaries who can't figure something out?

No, not a requirement. However if we would like binary folk to understand us, then teaching them is THE ONLY WAY they will ever understand. To expect them to come across the correct understanding on their own would be ... optimistic. More likely they would get it more wrong they than they would get it right unless they hear it right from us.

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 29, 2014, 08:51:07 AM
No, not a requirement. However if we would like binary folk to understand us, then teaching them is THE ONLY WAY they will ever understand. To expect them to come across the correct understanding on their own would be ... optimistic. More likely they would get it more wrong they than they would get it right unless they hear it right from us.

but that's just it, right? for a lot of people, me included, i've lost my patience for teaching people who are supposed to be my "allies". i already don't trust binary people, let alone cis people, to understand even after i expend my time putting my life on display for their convenience. at a certain point i stop being concerned about whether they "understand" me, especially if i feel like i can't even be promised the kind of basic decency that should come unconditionally, that shouldn't be contingent on me splaying myself open until somebody else is satisfied.

so when it comes to the original question? i don't. i don't explain it, i don't talk about it, because even within trans communities when i've seen the few people talking about being nonbinary in the same way as me out in the open they've been asked to explain their lives, their bodies, their feelings so that other people can understand, like, what, like it's some sort of gawking show. and maybe it's possible that binary people could understand it, maybe, after you've been put through the ringer in the same way that i have, had the exact same sets of experiences that i have, that it isn't inherently futile to try to educate people because maybe they could get a glimmer of what i would say to explain myself. and that's making the generous assumption that binary people even could understand what i'm on about. but honestly, that's not what i want. it's not what i'm after. i don't care about understanding anymore; i've been hurt far too much by people who "only wanted to understand" for me to register that as an innocent desire. in fact sometimes i don't even want other people to understand, because i'm afraid if they think they get it they'll go out and try to educate others in a way that's inaccurate.

it just isn't worth the pain anymore.

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 29, 2014, 01:09:47 AM
I came to being non-binary via what started out as a fairly normal MTF transition. But there came a point where I realised I'd climbed out of one box (Man) that didn't fit and was trying to jam myself into another box (Woman) that also didn't fit.

I wear the label woman, because it prevents explanations and is close enough.. Certainly closer than man. But in the end, neither is 100% accurate.

Amen to that line of thought, I totally concur! If anyone was cheeky enough to even bother asking me I'd simply say,

This over here is man................And that over there is woman, and I fit somewhere in between.

It's a simple enough answer and really doesn't require a lot of in-depth analysis and explanation. If that't too tough to get then TS!

Quote from: Shantel on September 29, 2014, 09:41:13 AM
Amen to that line of thought, I totally concur! If anyone was cheeky enough to even bother asking me I'd simply say,

This over here is man................And that over there is woman, and I fit somewhere in between.

It's a simple enough answer and really doesn't require a lot of in-depth analysis and explanation. If that't too tough to get then TS!

Ditto :) My best friend understood that quite easily when I told her.

It's an identity that is either in-between genders or neither gender, don't know how that can be hard to understand. Even once upon a time, I thought, "What's genderqueer?" I once thought it was an odd term and never really thought of it much. Now I am glad I have because it has paved the path to my true identity and now I can accept myself... all I had to do was open my eyes and my heart!

Plus it got me the chance to meet all you wonderful people! I couldn't be more grateful if I tried!  :)

Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 29, 2014, 09:45:41 AM
Ditto :) My best friend understood that quite easily when I told her.

It's an identity that is either in-between genders or neither gender, don't know how that can be hard to understand. Even once upon a time, I thought, "What's genderqueer?" I once thought it was an odd term and never really thought of it much. Now I am glad I have because it has paved the path to my true identity and now I can accept myself... all I had to do was open my eyes and my heart!

Plus it got me the chance to meet all you wonderful people! I couldn't be more grateful if I tried!  :)

That goes both ways Jacey!  :)

Quote from: kinz on September 29, 2014, 09:28:08 AM
but that's just it, right? for a lot of people, me included, i've lost my patience for teaching people who are supposed to be my "allies". i already don't trust binary people, let alone cis people, to understand even after i expend my time putting my life on display for their convenience. at a certain point i stop being concerned about whether they "understand" me, especially if i feel like i can't even be promised the kind of basic decency that should come unconditionally, that shouldn't be contingent on me splaying myself open until somebody else is satisfied.

so when it comes to the original question? i don't. i don't explain it, i don't talk about it, because even within trans communities when i've seen the few people talking about being nonbinary in the same way as me out in the open they've been asked to explain their lives, their bodies, their feelings so that other people can understand, like, what, like it's some sort of gawking show. and maybe it's possible that binary people could understand it, maybe, after you've been put through the ringer in the same way that i have, had the exact same sets of experiences that i have, that it isn't inherently futile to try to educate people because maybe they could get a glimmer of what i would say to explain myself. and that's making the generous assumption that binary people even could understand what i'm on about. but honestly, that's not what i want. it's not what i'm after. i don't care about understanding anymore; i've been hurt far too much by people who "only wanted to understand" for me to register that as an innocent desire. in fact sometimes i don't even want other people to understand, because i'm afraid if they think they get it they'll go out and try to educate others in a way that's inaccurate.

it just isn't worth the pain anymore.

Seems that I resonate with this more than I would like to admit.
It is something that has been learned now by experience here with me too, as opposed to where I started off.

It moves my focus entirely to the non binary discussion.  Where there is the opportunity to be reached.

I started off in the mtf section so if I had not been reached out to by the nonbinary, there could have been real issues for me.  Because I knew I was different but not where I needed to be.  Because I was cracking up thinking full mtf transition was inevitable.   Which is against my shrinks take on it.  I am documented mtf nonbinary.  I am diagnosed nonbinary trans, hormones required.

If anyone contests that here, it better be by pm.  I will not tolerate another disruption questioning my authenticity.  I have had it with that.
Thinking about it all.  Wondering about it all.

(Late to the party, as  usual...)

1.  I don't think it's possible to explain "what non-binary is", because, while "binary" is defined by what it is, "non-binary" is defined by what it isn't, and there are a lot more ways (maybe infinitely many) to not be binary than there are to be binary.  All you know when someone says that they're "non binary" is that you should avoid assuming that any particular aspect of binary cis or trans experience applies to them (or doesn't apply, either.)

2.  Put me in the column of people who don't bother to explain or even to go to any trouble to make sure I'm recognized as "non binary."  My gender identity (or rather, lack of any gender identity) is just the latest in a long series of things about me that almost nobody is willing to go to any effort to understand, and which even those who do try don't succeed, because their preconceptions are stronger than their ability to understand.

Maybe that's why I've never gotten worked up over what pronouns people use.  As long as they don't seem to be trying to put me down with their choice of pronoun, I don't really care.  I know who and what I am (well, to the extent anybody does), and neither is a worse (or better) fit for who I am inside.


Yeah, I wish there were people who really understood me.  But, to quote Suzie Derkins: while I'm wishing, I wish I had a pony.

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 29, 2014, 01:09:47 AM
I came to being non-binary via what started out as a fairly normal MTF transition. But there came a point where I realised I'd climbed out of one box (Man) that didn't fit and was trying to jam myself into another box (Woman) that also didn't fit.

Kelly this is so right on for me too.  Acting like a man felt like being strangled with one of those lovely wool neck ties.  Why would I escape one prison to sign up for another gender straightjacket?  Accepting and rediscovery of one's true self and unique expression is a priceless freedom that we work hard for.

There have been plenty of thread suggestions and real life experiences where what is implied is that "I am more legitimately trans than you are because......" just fill in the blank.

One of my worst public experiences came at the hands of another trans woman who decided I wasn't trying hard enough and needed a dressing down from one who did it right.  I have been thinking of creating a "100% Pass Card" for those worthy achievers but it feels a little snarky. ;)

None of us need to be on the defensive when solidarity and support are so much more helpful for building community.

I identify as genderfluid and transmasculine. People have a really hard time with the first concept, which I understand, although I do wish I fewer people told me that I was imagining things, just playing at being trans, etc. Most folks accept my personal experiences with gender fluidity once I've explained why I feel that way, though: for me, it's all about my physical dysphoria. When I play the "Genie Gives Me Three Wishes" game in the shower, do I ask for my perfect cis male body? Sometimes. Often, even.

But there are other times when the idea of being male is almost as frighting and repulsive as being female. During those times, any sort of gender marker feels alien. I want true neutrality-- not some combo of both. The girl in my voice is wrong, but so is the boy that I've carefully cultivated in my clothes, my hair. People will sometimes assure me that dysphoria fluctuates, and that the absence of FTM-typical dysphoria is standard, but for me, it's not just that. I have a whole different kind of dysphoria in those times -- one which points me towards a body without gender at all.

Like EchelonHunt, my non-binary identity is an agender one, and the movement between that and the male is why I typically call myself non-binary and transmasculine, but not FTM.

In less physical terms, the other way I sometimes explain it is this: Imagine going outside and running into a friend, who promptly compliments you on your yellow hat. You frown and look confused -- you're not wearing a yellow hat. The friend, being the perceptive type, promptly apologizes. "I'm sorry, [name]! I meant your purple hat!" He's wearing a purple hat too, and well, now it's just awkward, so you smile and walk away. Except you're not wearing a purple hat either. You're pretty sure you're not wearing a hat at all.

Socially, that's what agenderedness feels to me. The weird double take when someone insists I'm "wearing a hat." Am I? Wait, no! It's not that I'm a girl and it's not that I'm a boy. I'm a person, no gender accessories.

Deep breath.

Where did the intensity and bitterness come from.  It should not be part of my core.

To the OP question:

I had to do this and I continue to have to do this with my wife.

I explain I am not a woman trapped in a male body.

I explain that in my specific case I am a DES birth anomolized baby, with my endocrine, central nervous system, skeleton, and God knows what else, DES converted to female. 

This has created the physical foundation for my nonbinary gender understanding.

My own gender is beginning to become very personal because of too much questioning and triggering.  But what is written above, is the truth, and allows one to see that there is more going on than what is between the legs, and there is complexity.  If there is interest by the person I am talking too, I will explain the triune nature of my personal trans experience, the core or center or even soul, the physical sence of being a female wired transsexual, and the fluidity that I experience as I react to the world around me, comfortably and authentically shifting from one gender nuance to another, one presentation to another, one life experience to another.  All valid, all me.  The core watches and is amuzed, and in the last crisis seems to have integrated my so called male and female components, SJ or Satinjoy, melding it into Satinjoy.  But all these things fall short to describing me.  I am too difficult to describe.  I am just me.

But they usually understand DES conversions, and in their binary natures, they grasp that I am technically physically half male and half female.

But I consider myself to be simply a nonbinary mtf hormone transitioned genderqueer genderfluid genderfree transsexual with multiple authentic presentations.

Simple?

Not.

Comfortable?

YES.

Defensive?   When it is accepted by others as my truth, no.  But at this point, I am still quite raw over this.  I have not quite let go of the anger and frustration I feel at the moment, motives of others notwithstanding, what I will say is that gender is a deeply personal experience that should not be questioned.  Asked about, yes.  Questioned, devalued or demeaned, no.  Implied to be inauthentic?  Look out.  I paid one hell of a price to be authentic, all of us have.

Crap it took my shrink a year and a half to fully get me and what makes my gender tick.  How can I expect one that is untrained to even glimpse it.  Lucky for me I have a really, really good shrink.

So long story short, I land hard on the DES issue.  I don't know how I would handle it if I did not have the DES thing.

--Nails out hair down living true.

Satinjoy

Quote from: Satinjoy on September 29, 2014, 03:39:46 PM
So long story short, I land hard on the DES issue.  I don't know how I would handle it if I did not have the DES thing.

--Nails out hair down living true.

Satinjoy

I and many, many others don't have the DES issue. We cope. How? For me, it's simply remembering that the human species is able to produce all kinds of diversity.. I just got one of the more interesting examples.

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 29, 2014, 05:00:33 PM
I and many, many others don't have the DES issue. We cope. How? For me, it's simply remembering that the human species is able to produce all kinds of diversity.. I just got one of the more interesting examples.

In my book, your ability to stand up for just who you are with no excuses pinned on physical stuff, makes you a hero.

It has to be harder for you.  I take the easier way out.

You have my deepest respect.  As I do with all  the courageous folks willing to be authentic to themselves and live their truth.

--Satinjoy

The box description which I stole from someone here on forum, I don't know who, I take from everyone, learn from everyone... but that can work.  That the binary sees one side or sees two sides, but we see the entire object, and as we dig deeper into our gender cores we see into the center of the object and from that center see it box from the inside out.

But the idea of the box can be interesting.

As Ativan likes to say, gender descriptions in language is difficult.  But in images, we can sometimes express facets of our experience.

I'm out of this and any further conversations until this is resolved to my satisfaction.

Sorry for poking my nose in here, but there was just something I kinda wanted to say.

It's very hard to have to keep explaining to people why you are who you are, and who that is. The feeling from a few people in this thread is that they're sick of jumping through hoops just to be able to be themselves, and find it hard to have to keep explaining themselves over and over and over. I myself come from a largely binary perspective, and I have a hard enough job explaining to folks the reason I'm not who they always thought I was, so I can only imagine the utter annoyance and "I so want to ram your head through a wall" feelings that some non-binary folks go through trying to first get someone to see a way of being beyond their own preconceptions before even attempting to go on to talk about themselves. I am sorry you are faced with that sometimes.

I've learned during my time here that sometimes it's better not to ask. And that's hard for me, being someone who prefers questioning and curiosity. Nevertheless, sometimes it's better to just to watch people talking amongst themselves. Listen to what they're saying... and through that I've learned a lot. And continue to learn a lot. But elsewhere there sometimes isn't that opportunity, and people who want information sometimes have no other choice.

What I would like to say, really, is to try not to think harshly of people who ask you a bunch of questions and make you feel like your life has to be explained away. Even if your answer is silence, or something along the lines of "I don't feel comfortable talking about it". That's fair enough. Everyone has the right to set their own boundaries. But the fact that they ask has a lot of significance sometimes. Says a lot about who you're interacting with.

It's when people don't ask, start assuming, and treat you a certain way based on those assumptions... that's when things can start to get real bad. That's something I learned the hard way, and I don't want it to be something others have to see for themselves.

I'm out of this and any further conversations until this is resolved to my satisfaction.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 30, 2014, 01:07:23 PM
It's when you do explain, answer their questions and they still make assumptions based on their perceptions.
When they disqualify your answers because it doesn't fit their narrative that it is annoying.
Especially when they ask the same question again and again, as if the answer will eventually conform to their expectations, their narrative.
The one that asked the question in the first place.
It isn't the questions, it's the telling answers that are judged to be wrong because it doesn't align with their world view.
Once this has been done, the negative response to an answer, the questions become negative in themselves.
Silence or saying you won't answer is viewed as a negative because you won't tell them the answer they have already answered to themselves.
It isn't the questions, it's the assuming the answers will fit their perceptions their narratives that is their problem.
That problem is not ours to fix, it is theirs.
It's annoying to have to explain that over and over, in different terms in an effort to answer such a simple thing.
It isn't complicated, it is only for the person who refuse to hear it because it isn't the right answer from their point of view.
It is the 'I want to ram your head through a wall if you don't give me the answer I have already decided on' that is only annoying to the ones who demand an answer that fits their perceptions, the perception they think is correct for them and so must be correct for everyone.
The opportunity is there, it is the fault of the person seeking an answer who ignores it.
Asking a question in bias will get you an answer that you will won't hear because of that bias.
It is the problem of the person asking in such a way. It deserves silence as an answer.
But this is not the case, more often than not, the answer have been given, again and again, it's the bias that fails to hear them.
The world is full of people who don't have to ask, and there are those who feel they already have the answer and don't ask.
It is the ones who ask and expect the answer to conform to their own preconceived ideas, their narrative.
To expect us to also change their perspectives, their views so they can understand isn't the question or even the answer, if that is never asked in the first place.
So perhaps asking the question to themselves of why they need to ask the question should be one to themselves of why their perceptions, their views, won't allow them to hear the answer, to already know the answer.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it.
It's very frustrating to take them there and they refuse to drink because they don't believe it's there.
Ativan

That's fair enough. I understand why you feel that way. That isn't limited to non-binary people, though. Anything that's outside someone's sphere of experience can be disregarded by the person in question, comfortable in their own ideas. It's part of human nature. We feel what we feel, and get decidedly uncomfortable with those who question or challenge those feelings. We feel threatened, invalidated, belittled. It causes us to question ourselves. And we spend enough time doing that, we don't like being forced into it.

I guess all one can do is gauge who someone is who we're dealing with. Going by what we know about them, what the relationship dynamic is. If one feels that someone doesn't want to listen, then they don't want to listen. However that's on the individual, not on the group. You can only do what you can do, you know?

Maybe I should have been clearer in my first post. I apologise. I think most people are emotionally aware enough to ascertain when someone keeps asking a question because they want a very specific answer, and won't be satisfied until they get it. In that case... do what you feel is right. But for the lay-person who just wants to know how to treat you, how to not misgender, or disrespect you... give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm out of this and any further conversations until this is resolved to my satisfaction.

Off topic response and I deleted it.  that may screw up Ativans next post as out of context.  Sorry about that .  Satinjoy

I'm out of this and any further conversations until this is resolved to my satisfaction.

I think language is a real barrier.

It is not a new thought, it is an old one.

Yes lets forget the past and move on.  Lets recover this thread and prove we can do that.

I edited my previous post as it is not  helpful or productive.

So can we describe gender in pictures, in allegories?

How do we describe something that is an elusive feeling?  So that others can understand?

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 28, 2014, 01:44:20 PM

I am not trying to stir anything up I just have a thought to express.

As the quotes show above there seems to be a reluctance to talk about being non binary. Most said they really don't talk about it or go into detail with anyone. This is exactly the reason our two communities do not understand each other. I came to this topic hoping to see how others explain it so I could understand it. Not one post was clear or had any information I could use to figure this out. I am trying, but if it is not talked about amongst yourselves how in the world can I get a grasp on it. Do you see the problem? I will watch this topic and hope someone gives me the information I can use to understand your community. Until then I am still in the dark. I am trying though.  :)

I don't think you're stirring anything up Jessica. I'm MTF non binary, for now anyway. Of course nature did me some favors. :-X I just feel I owe no one any explanations. Other than the rest of the community and really its just one community if they want to know. Yes there are different ways everyone is going about it but there really isn't different camps. I have the closet door wide open with the light on. Walk in closet BTW. ;) We are all trans. Non Binary, Androgynous, Non Binary MTF, Non Binary FTM, Binary MTF and Binary FTM. I think the main thing is we are our own little society our own little community. Or at least a subgroup of the bigger beast of society. I will definitely talk about me and how I feel with the community but as for society, they can make their own assumptions. The closet door is open and the light is on and I am peeking out. So not really hiding but most people see what they want to see. But come on, with my hair and eyebrows anyone that can't tell just really don't pay attention. Especially when I wear just enough mascara to accentuate my eyelashes Or just enough eyebrow pencil to accentuate the shape of my brows. I mean I see girls with uglier brows than me and shorter hair and don't smell near as pretty as me. ;)

This is what I can't understand and really confused about and kind of hurt over, not by you or anyone else specifically. You may like brussel sprouts, I hate brussle sprouts but we are both human. Same with you may be Binary MTF and I may be Non Binary MTF but we are both Trans and we are both human. I can't really understand all the defensiveness or offensiveness between Non Binary and Binary. I always thought Binary was Cis. Until the last couple of months I honestly didn't know that "Binary" transgender even existed. I thought we were all in the same boat. The only thing that worries me is with the likes of Andrej, I can't even spell her last name, and Leverne Cox and a lot of others that are transgender, the old "divide and conquer" deal to try and take away some of our legitimacy as trans. In fighting will destroy us quicker than any religion, politician or any negative press. Right now we all need to stick together because I will almost bet that there are people reading through susans and other transgender websights and will use all this against us. Sort of like, "I heard so and so say this about you." Now we really need to be united more than anything.

Honestly, there should be friction between us here or anywhere else. We should respect everyone whether full HRT, SRS, Low dose HRT or natural "freaks" like me that nature put somewhere in between. Either by DES or Mother Nature. The word "freak" isn't a bad thing and I will be the first to say I am proud and kind of comfortable to be a freak of nature. It has probably helped a lot with not being so dysphoric and may have actually saved my life on more than one occasion.

OK I am gonna' be a little activist here. We need to really stop this infighting amongst ourselves. We need to stop being so defensive and offensive and not be so offended by anyone that doesn't understand Non Binary trans or Binary trans and answer whatever question with understanding form anyone that ask, even Cis. But we trans are such a small group in society and gaining momentum. Let's all not let that movement be hijacked. Please. And yes I am begging.

Satinjoy, don't be torn up hon. You did nothing wrong. Jessica, don't be so gun shy, you also did nothing wrong. But seriously as much crap as society has given us we should have thicker skins than to get offended by our own true family. Even though we are all different we are actually the only ones that understand us in society. I really hate that Jessica has to apologize before when even ask a question or try to understand one another. Anybody can ask me anything and I promise I won't get offended from anyone. All the crap from being trans and an outcast has given me a thick skin. You call me normal I might get a little pissed though. Call me Cis and I will get really mad. ;D Not really but you get the point. Let's keep the transgender momentum going. Please.

OK I'm sure someone will be mad or offended by what I said. So give it to me or trash me all you want, but I will still wake up in the morning and still be me and still respect and love everyone here on Susan's. And I will still think the same way tomorrow.

Quote from: Jess42 on September 30, 2014, 04:23:22 PM
I always thought Binary was Cis. Until the last couple of months I honestly didn't know that "Binary" transgender even existed.

I di not know either to tell the truth. My BINARY viewpoint was unknown to me until others here pointed it out. I just knew I was a female with all it entails and the life one lives as a female with all the hopes, dreams and expectations. I had no idea that my view point as a female would offend. That is why I was asking people so I would NOT offend anyone with anything said by me in topics. I have stayed out of non binary topics since being told to, but had to respond to this.  :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 30, 2014, 04:35:32 PM
I di not know either to tell the truth. My BINARY viewpoint was unknown to me until others here pointed it out. I just knew I was a female with all it entails and the life one lives as a female with all the hopes, dreams and expectations. I had no idea that my view point as a female would offend. That is why I was asking people so I would NOT offend anyone with anything said by me in topics. I have stayed out of non binary topics since being told to, but had to respond to this.  :)

Well I think all the terminology and internal analyzing can be both confusing and convoluted and frankly I don't waste a lot of waking hours agonizing over it. I consider myself non-binary because I'm clearly not a woman and don't really wish to be one, though I was confused enough early on in my transition to think so, and I'm clearly not a male anymore either so suffice it to say, non-binary is an apt description of my inner workings. Outwardly I appear to be an androgynous male and that aptly describes my personal appearance in public. Really I think it's simple enough to understand, there is no deep dark secret here.

I'm out of this and any further conversations until this is resolved.
Please remove any quotes of me in this thread.

This isn't about Jess42's comment, that makes perfect sense.
It is about repeatedly having our identities here invalidated by Jessica.
Look back at how many times this was explained in as many ways as thought possible.
I have heard that it was done through PM's many times as well.
Yet the invalidation didn't stop. Instead of learning anything, there were cries of I'm sorry and won't do that again.
Repeatedly forgiven, repeatedly invalidates.
For me this culminated in a different thread.
In large bold caps, after screaming something demeaning about NB's.
Around that same time she had made comments about not caring about the NB's.
She has expressed these sentiments and carried this argument of hers through several threads, one of them being locked, another deleted altogether.
That she has been steadily rejected for her behavior is evident.
She has left more than one person afraid to comment, lest they be invalidated once again.
This happens to often, but to then say they knew nothing about binary gender as a moderator?
I find that hard to believe and do not accept it as the truth. If it is true, then what was she referring to when she used the term non-binary?
That would imply that what she had been saying was towards all binary and non-binary? She claims intelligence in one comment, maybe more...
I find this excuse to be less than truthful from a moderator in a forum that deals with a lot of gender issues.
Many have expressed that they would like to see her stopped from using her privilege as a mod, her binary privilege and now maybe, lol, her female privilege.
It is this constantness that has been answered many times over and yet keeps on with the same attitude.
It is about her, not Jess42 or anyone else. I have reported her comments like I was supposed to, it didn't stop her.
Others have reported her, she even talked about it in her comments elsewhere.
She complained about that and also blamed the NB's for reporting her for comments just like that one.
This looks like a pathological dysfunction, and it has been tried for a long time to get it to atop.
It hasn't, I'm sick of it.
Nothing more, nothing less.
If she can talk the way she has been doing, I think it is only fair to talk right back about her.
Her presence is toxic to anyone new to NB who goes back and reads her comments.
It continues on.
She has claimed that the NB's are the ones at fault for a divide, but it is her behavior that has widened it, no one else is to blame.
I had made statements about how well the communities within the forum have been coming together.
Just showing up with the continuation of her argument she is having by herself is counterproductive to what I had said.
I don't want my statements of how little divide there now is to be tainted by her continuing this line that NB's are not fair to her.
They went way out of their way, above and beyond, as far as I am concerned.
No, it has nothing to do with Jess42's comment, it has everything to do with Jessica taking advantage of it to plead innocent by ignorance.
That to has been done and forgiven too many times.
Had anyone from this area gone into the MTF area and acted this way, they would have been given warnings and bans.
As it is, even explaining this truth about what has been going on, is going to result in that.

Quote from: Jess42 on September 30, 2014, 04:23:22 PM
I just feel I owe no one any explanations. Other than the rest of the community and really its just one community .  I will still wake up in the morning and still be me and still respect and love everyone here on Susan's. And I will still think the same way tomorrow.

Thank you Jess for bringing that solidarity concept back to our conversation.  It can be a challenge for some not to perceive rank or status in a group but it can also get tedious for those promoting equity too.  I prefer to think of our fabulous rainbow of diversity as wonderfully illuminating the human experience.  Really, I celebrate the colorful and animated lives we represent to the masses of sameness and conformity.  We dare the world to live free on our own terms.  It is a bright new day and with this seasonal change lets prepare our nests for a content and cozy winter.  I can toss in a few nuts ;)

Quote from: Tessa James on October 01, 2014, 11:38:15 AM
I prefer to think of our fabulous rainbow of diversity as wonderfully illuminating the human experience.  Really, I celebrate the colorful and animated lives we represent to the masses of sameness and conformity.  We dare the world to live free on our own terms.  It is a bright new day and with this seasonal change lets prepare our nests for a content and cozy winter.  I can toss in a few nuts ;)

I love this idea. :)

" I can toss in a few nuts ;) "

Tessa, how did you know I was back?  :laugh:  You do write so very beautifully, thank you for your imagery.

I didn't get here until after Ativan had deleted their posts, but for what it's worth, I really do agree with Jess. "If we do not hang together we will surely hang separately" refers to more than revolution.  I fully respect anyone's right to express their gender in whatever way works for them.  Few if any of us are at the extreme poles of gender identity.  Evidently I move around quite a lot.  To some I'm a bitch, to some an ->-bleeped-<-.  Must depend on my mood ;).  Mostly, I am just trying to get along while my body and spirit become something new, something authentic to me.  I am a woman, most of the time but not always I'm female, most of the time but not always, I long to be a girl.  I spent too many decades living as a man to be able to fully abandon that part of me.  He is there so I might as well celebrate him.  There is much to be admired in complexity.  That is what I try to explain to people, that is for me a key to living openly and authentically.

Sadly I can only pull off authenticity imperfectly.  There is too much history, too much pain.  When I feel attacked I become defensive and withdraw.  That anyone here should ever feel attacked, is unacceptable to me.  None of us is without flaw, none of us is without beauty.  If I can show a child of transition their beauty, their unique splendor then I have done something wonderful. Male Identity, Female Identiy, Both, Neither, Blend, Something Not Yet Defined.  I just don't care.  We are all children of the spirit, all courageous miracles trying to define the ambiguous and to finally live life joyfully. That is what I choose to see and to identify with whenever I am here, that is why I am so thrilled to meet and hold your hands whenever I get the chance.

I wish everyone peace,
Julie

I edited my comment above to clear up any notion that I was in any way offended by Jess42's comment.
I wasn't, I agree with the principle of it.
I think I have made it clear to why I deleted my comments and wish the quotes taken down as well.

how do we explain non-binary?
the way we've always done. there's a pinned thread here for that, "shedding some light".
i wish all would go over there to read if they haven't yet, and none can come in here claiming that we don't explain ourselves enough, it's already been done.

i have personally been a member here for over three years already.
in all those three years, we've almost constantly been bothered and bugged to tell and explain, what is this forum for, and what are its members really.

i have no problems talking about and explaining to new members who come by to ask whether this is a place they can fit in a little better than in the other forums. i will share my own story in response to their stories, as will many others. that is a good conversation.
there are so many of those conversations however, that any one who wishes to learn, should be able to find the answer in the history of these forums, without having to ask over and over again.

i am sorry, echeleon, for writing a post that neither explains what or how to explain.
this is just such an old discussion, a fight for existence, that has been going on for too long.
my patience has been stretched thin, not by those new and curious, but by those who come in and trample all over our forums with their "how can something like that even exist" types of questions.
(no, i'm not pointing at anyone in particular. but if you feel it's directed at you, then you're obviously guilty. what's bad here isn't that one person though, but the whole mass of persons, and the persistence of some.)

why is it so important to know how non-binary can possibly exist?
it is a fact that we are. as for how, the answer is physically, mentally, and philosophically.

next time, let's explain ultraviolet, ok?
how does it look, anyone?
we all know it's a color, and that birds can see it clearly.
we take it for a fact, even if we can't even see it.

can't i just be taken for a fact?
and can't the people who don't understand, just take my experience for real?

if the need to explain the already explained keeps going on like this, i'll start asking men and women to explain their gender.
let's see how well that goes, when i start insisting that i just don't understand.
for i can't understand this idea, that gender can be something that constant and unchangeable.
i have no idea how that could possibly work.
but it's not very difficult to understand that it does work, and i only need a man or woman's word for it, to know it is.
just as much as non-binary genders are.

Taka's excellent commentary drives a stake into the heart of the matter!  :eusa_clap:

Quote from: Tessa James on October 01, 2014, 11:38:15 AM
Thank you Jess for bringing that solidarity concept back to our conversation.  It can be a challenge for some not to perceive rank or status in a group but it can also get tedious for those promoting equity too.  I prefer to think of our fabulous rainbow of diversity as wonderfully illuminating the human experience.  Really, I celebrate the colorful and animated lives we represent to the masses of sameness and conformity.  We dare the world to live free on our own terms.  It is a bright new day and with this seasonal change lets prepare our nests for a content and cozy winter.  I can toss in a few nuts ;)

Your welcome Tessa, and thank you. And thank you too Ativan. When I wrote what I wrote, I really didn't want to offend anyone at all or make anyone angry at me but sometimes people still get mad at me. I was just trying to say that we all need to stick together since we are gaining ground and no matter what we need to show solidarity, patience, compassion and empathy and explain our viewpoints as to how we feel, even within this community. I a MTF nonbinary, others are FTM non binary and still yet some are not MTF or FTM but just plain non binary. Mine is natural, other's are through low dose HRT and some through just HRT.

Not too much hurts me. But this split cuts me deeper than any knife wound. It hurts me more than a love lost And I know of love lost and it was my fault 'cause I ran. But with him I could be who I wanted and wish I could go back but can't. I can hear someone now on TV, no names mentioned but big names and one of our biggest adversaries, I can just hear that voice saying over and over again, "So how are we ever gonna' be able to accept them as men or women when they weren't born that way when they don't even accept themselves and fighting among themselves over their own identities." A lot of people will know who I'm talking about. Hint *700*. That is the biggest thing that I am afraid of. We are tearing down walls with Laverne Cox, Andre. Now Andrea ( I can never spell the last name) Bruce Jenner and the one celebrity I can't remember that was dating a transwoman. If anyone don't think this forum is being monitored by those that want to keep us in the shadows and shamed and shunned by society, well I got to go feed my pet unicorn. ???

Now is the time we all need to really stick together and in a year or two, we can fight all we want to. We can disagree all we want to. I am not laying blame on anyone at all. But we all need to not let what Leverne, Andre, Bailey, Amy, all the ones on youtube public with their transitions or not one or the other and all the others across the board that has put themselves out there and proud and trans go to waste. I am definitely not an activist, but I feel so much passion and emotion for this movement and have been waiting for it since I hit puberty.

I still owe no one any explanations but I was in Downtown New Orleans recently and someone asked me about my hair and the length of my shorts and lack of body hair and WTF? Was I trans or what. All I answered him was two questions, "What do you think?" and, "Does it really matter?" I asked the guy if he thought he was ugly or not. He said no and I told him he better rethink that answer. That's me. Don't curse at me and I won't make you feel bad but his tone was kind of condescending. If he would have pulled out a gun and shot me all I would have asked is between the eyes and quick. That day I got called Sir twice and Ma'am twice so confusing isn't even the word for me. The guy did give me his number and an invite for drinks but I am kind of leery besides I have a boyfriend right now so...

I have been LGBT, the T most definitely since I can remember and I remember when lesbians didn't like gays and vice versa. I had friends that were both and we were all friends when all was said and done. I had one other trans friend, FTM and that is the only one that I knew growing up and that was rare.

But in regards to the original post, I don't. Either you accept me or not. I feel no need to be validated by anyone. I really don't care if society accepts me. I validate myself and I accept myself. I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone else but through some of my posts you will see me write and think of the sweetest Southern Belle voice you can muster in your imaginations and then me sayin' it all innocent and such, "Society doesn't have to accept me and I don't have to accept society either." But I ain't in no way innocent though. ;) I feel no need to be validated, that is something that I must feel on my own regardless. I don't need to be accepted either. I accept myself and others accept me but even if they didn't I accept myself and this may sound selfish but as long as I accept myself, that is all that matters. No one else does. I have to live with myself everyday. I have to wake up to myself every morning, I have to go to bed with myself every night. In other word I have to be happy with who I am, no one else. Not family because I can always find other family even if not genetic family. I can always find friends that are like me and or that will accept me. I can always find boyfriends or girlfriends or lovers regardless of orientation, gender or sexual or straight even.

Sorry to hijack the post with a longwinded, but I do have a big mouth, :P but I don't need anyone to understand me. All I need to do is understand myself and be true to myself and those closest around me and if they reject me so what? There are plenty of people that do and will.

I'm sorry but I kind of had a head start on everyone else and have lived with this since I was at least 4 maybe even 3. Or definitely from first memories. I battled all the dysphoria on my own through the Library and Psychology books. I came to terms with myself early. If not I would have been worm food, six feet under long ago. I am no stronger than anyone else. But the drive to understand and the desire to be me unleashed gave me a lot of strength. Now I kind of like a leash though. :embarrassed: Pinked spiked collar and one helluva tatted guy on the other end. :embarrassed:

Now I will shut up. But I do love you all no matter what or who you are or how you identify.

thank you jess, that's a great explanation of why no explanation is needed.
i also don't feel much need to explain, but i'll answer benign curiosity, just because i think it's interesting.

this whole trans thing is getting kind of old to me by now. i figured it out three years ago, and one year ago i figured the rest of myself out too. being asked to explain over and over again doesn't feel like something asking for a favor, instead it's more like being asked to take all the dished out of the cupboards and wash them twice.
except that everybody would understand why i considered slamming a door in the face of whomever asked me to do those dishes...

Quote from: Taka on October 02, 2014, 02:14:08 PM
thank you jess, that's a great explanation of why no explanation is needed.
i also don't feel much need to explain, but i'll answer benign curiosity, just because i think it's interesting.

this whole trans thing is getting kind of old to me by now. i figured it out three years ago, and one year ago i figured the rest of myself out too. being asked to explain over and over again doesn't feel like something asking for a favor, instead it's more like being asked to take all the dished out of the cupboards and wash them twice.
except that everybody would understand why i considered slamming a door in the face of whomever asked me to do those dishes...

OMG sweetie. I am 46 and I figured it out when I was 14. So getting old? Just wait until you get my age hon and have known it from since an early age and the way you don't feel you need to owe anyone any explanation. I had to do "self therapy" When the closet door is wide open and the light on, why do you even need to say anything? I see your avatar. If people don't know or even guess, screw 'em. But then again it may be that "transdar" some people talk about but ever can't get right. ::) Sometimes they do and I just reel them in. ;D

BTW. I am who I am. And that is me. Whoever can't except it, well, they can go somewhere and do something with the horse they rode in on. I have heard of that show in "Boystown Mexico". I am no Angel so really don't listen to me. I am an angel but with leathery black wings. >:-) I am definitely a "badgirl" and have some friends who are Badgirls too. But no names from this girl. :-X But I will be friends with anyone not just here but face to face friends. I am not too proud to make friends with anyone no matter what.

i've suffered a little from never having been allowed to be me when i grew up. mom's a natural dictator, and even her current husband can't manage to go against her. needed time to grow up and stuff before i could start to realize how different being me is from being anyone else. i already knew when i was a kid, even learned what it was called in my early teens. but at that time i had more than enough trouble just staying alive. trans was definitely the last priority in my list to deal with. only remembered this stuff again a few years ago...

thinking about it, i probably always knew who i am, even in terms if trans. what i had to figure out was mostly where my thinking went wrong when nothing seemed to make sense. the only wrong thing was my definition of normal, not what i knew about myself.

Quote from: Taka on October 02, 2014, 03:51:58 PM
i've suffered a little from never having been allowed to be me when i grew up. mom's a natural dictator, and even her current husband can't manage to go against her. needed time to grow up and stuff before i could start to realize how different being me is from being anyone else. i already knew when i was a kid, even learned what it was called in my early teens. but at that time i had more than enough trouble just staying alive. trans was definitely the last priority in my list to deal with. only remembered this stuff again a few years ago...

thinking about it, i probably always knew who i am, even in terms if trans. what i had to figure out was mostly where my thinking went wrong when nothing seemed to make sense. the only wrong thing was my definition of normal, not what i knew about myself.

There is no freakin' normal Taka. I hate to tell you this or anyone else for that matter but normal doesn't exist. I have seen a lot of supposedly "normal" people with a lot of weirdness. And when I say weird, trans or non binary would make them normal. There may be an illusion of "normal" but don't fall for it. We are way more normal than we think. Or at least way more normal than a lot of so called normal people claim to be.

What is bad is that people look for too much validity from society. In 100 hundred years, I will never ask society to validate me. I validate myself, I am here and I am transgender MTF, FTM or non of the above and if they can't accept that then they can kiss my mule or butt. I have found a niche in society that I can be me freely and comfortably and whoever really don't like it, Oh well... I'm so sorry.

 :) I wish I was as Extraordinary as you are Taka..
I don't want to be normal,
I don't care anymore what anyone thinks.
We're all so amazing, its hard to believe.!!

Jess and Taka,

I think you both know how much I care for and admire you both.  Just promise me you'll stick around to keep the cats and kittens united.  You both are more important than you can possibly know.

Thank You,
Julie

I try to stick to the simple "I have never felt right as a woman, but living as a man didn't work out either."

so Jess42 if you don't mind me being curious what exactly does a unicorn eat just in case I encounter one.

Quote from: stephaniec on October 02, 2014, 09:03:56 PM
so Jess42 if you don't mind me being curious what exactly does a unicorn eat just in case I encounter one.

CORN. That should have been a simple given. ;D I guess us Blonde chicks are a little smarter than the brunettes give us credit for. ;) Of course I am a dirty blonde so. The key word being dirty. :embarrassed:

Quote from: JulieBlair on October 02, 2014, 06:14:32 PM
Jess and Taka,

I think you both know how much I care for and admire you both.  Just promise me you'll stick around to keep the cats and kittens united.  You both are more important than you can possibly know.

Thank You,
Julie

Thank you Julie. But really no more important as anyone else here. Just a little passionate about this momentum we are gaining and I would hate to see someone use anything against us to keep us down and shamed. Believe me. I am no activist but I know how the world works and I do know that there are probably people looking at this forum right now from certain groups or "Clubs" waiting to strike at the first sign of weakness in this momentum. And tha one voice I can't get out of my head. :P

So far I ahve been lucky.  I have only talked with my winderful wife and one friend.

But both got it, with no real explanation needed.

Any further exposition was more for my benefit than theirs.

I have surrounded myself with some very good people, and as I walk this path I hope my luck holds with my close friends.

Still scared of the potential conversation with my conservative parents though.
Dad is even a preacher...  Hey dad, you know how I never really rebelled?  Guess what...
Yeeeeaaaahhhhhh....  Love my folks, that is not gonna be any fun...


- Jaded Jade

Quote from: Jess42 on October 02, 2014, 04:32:21 PM
There is no freakin' normal Taka. I hate to tell you this or anyone else for that matter but normal doesn't exist. I have seen a lot of supposedly "normal" people with a lot of weirdness. And when I say weird, trans or non binary would make them normal. There may be an illusion of "normal" but don't fall for it. We are way more normal than we think. Or at least way more normal than a lot of so called normal people claim to be.

What is bad is that people look for too much validity from society. In 100 hundred years, I will never ask society to validate me. I validate myself, I am here and I am transgender MTF, FTM or non of the above and if they can't accept that then they can kiss my mule or butt. I have found a niche in society that I can be me freely and comfortably and whoever really don't like it, Oh well... I'm so sorry.

as i said, my definition of normal was completely wrong.
i thought it had at least some kind of significance.
but found out that what society defines as normal really is never right, not even when they make it law.

i am completely normal, in my own definition of it.
a perfectly normal part of natural variation.
i don't conform to norms though, neither to anyone else's definition of normal.

Quote from: Jess42 on October 03, 2014, 01:57:56 AM
Thank you Julie. But really no more important as anyone else here. Just a little passionate about this momentum we are gaining and I would hate to see someone use anything against us to keep us down and shamed. Believe me. I am no activist but I know how the world works and I do know that there are probably people looking at this forum right now from certain groups or "Clubs" waiting to strike at the first sign of weakness in this momentum. And tha one voice I can't get out of my head. :P

I've been here off and on for several years and have noted an increase in the gravitational pull toward NB by trans types who have realized that it isn't necessary for them to be sliced and diced and move from one gender box to the other and that there is a rather comfortable middle ground where one can live outside the boxes and enjoy life on their own terms. The in depth conversations and times of shared introspection make that more evident to others and as long as we continue to have intelligent and insightful discussions as opposed to the usual superficial poof and twaffle that goes on elsewhere. It's about time that people understand that there is no need to buy into the usual group-think mentality or be moved by peer pressure and think outside of the box!

Quote from: Shantel on October 03, 2014, 07:00:39 AM
I've been here off and on for several years and have noted an increase in the gravitational pull toward NB by trans types who have realized that it isn't necessary for them to be sliced and diced and move from one gender box to the other and that there is a rather comfortable middle ground where one can live outside the boxes and enjoy life on their own terms. The in depth conversations and times of shared introspection make that more evident to others and as long as we continue to have intelligent and insightful discussions as opposed to the usual superficial poof and twaffle that goes on elsewhere. It's about time that people understand that there is no need to buy into the usual group-think mentality or be moved by peer pressure and think outside of the box!

Shantel
I completely agree.  These conversations are rich and go straight to the heart of our identity and community.  Folk like Taka, Jess42, Ativan, Satinjoy and many, many others share and care so much, invest so much in this forum.  This is a precious gift which I acknowledge and thank you for.  My hope is that you will continue to share and support our community for a long time to come.  I know this is unreasonable, but just in case you didn't know, you are loved and appreciated by many.
Safe travels
Aisla

Quote from: Jaded Jade on October 03, 2014, 02:34:02 AM
So far I ahve been lucky.  I have only talked with my winderful wife and one friend.

But both got it, with no real explanation needed.

Any further exposition was more for my benefit than theirs.

I have surrounded myself with some very good people, and as I walk this path I hope my luck holds with my close friends.

Still scared of the potential conversation with my conservative parents though.
Dad is even a preacher...  Hey dad, you know how I never really rebelled?  Guess what...
Yeeeeaaaahhhhhh....  Love my folks, that is not gonna be any fun...


- Jaded Jade

JJ

There is no rule that says you must tell everyone.  Why not tell those who need to know when they need to know it.  As you live your truth, your authenticity will shine through.  You will know when you have the words, the time and the need to tell your parents.  There is no timetable.  Just follow your path.  Don't sweat the next step or overthink this.

While I have come out to more than 40 friends, colleagues, clients and family I have not yet decided if or when I will speak with my parents or siblings.  So far so good.  They have been curious and concerned but it hadn't changed our relationship, except to make me more real, more human and trusted.  My son and I spoke last week.  It went well, very well.  Not sure why I agonised over this conversation for so long.  Each conversation becomes easier.  At some point I will likely speak with my parents, brothers and sister, but  I am learning not to sweat over this.
Safe travels

Aisla

I can think of very good reasons why anyone thoughtful would come to the non-binary forum.  Passion, and intellectual depth.  My gender identity wanders from here to there, but my appreciation of passion and articulate argument is transcendent.  You people are amazing - Thank you

Julie

*is extremely late to the party*

*has thoughts on certain matters, but is unsure of whether to express them*

Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 04, 2014, 03:43:49 PM
*is extremely late to the party*

*has thoughts on certain matters, but is unsure of whether to express them*

You're thoughts are valued don't let anyone intimidate you this is your forum too, say what you want as long as you keep it inside TOS parameters.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 04, 2014, 03:43:49 PM
*is extremely late to the party*

*has thoughts on certain matters, but is unsure of whether to express them*

DF
This is tricky as the TOS need to be observed.  If in doubt perhaps bounce it off Cindy first and if likely to trigger post a warning if your thoughts could be interpreted as a criticism of others.
Aisla

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 29, 2014, 08:51:07 AM
No, not a requirement. However if we would like binary folk to understand us, then teaching them is THE ONLY WAY they will ever understand. To expect them to come across the correct understanding on their own would be ... optimistic. More likely they would get it more wrong they than they would get it right unless they hear it right from us.

Sorry for the backtrack but I feel that this is an important point.

No one should ever feel obliged to have to explain to the world who they are just to be respected and taken seriously. I am all for people sharing lives and experiences that are different to my own, but if I don't understand something, they do not owe it to me to help me understand. The fact that many people do this is wonderful, I respect those people immensely but they don't have to. In fact, demanding that someone explains their life and experiences in minutia, and how they are systemically disadvantaged because of them, before I will take them seriously is as good as admitting that I am in a position of systemic advantage over them. I am literally telling them that my time is too damn important to waste on trying to understand the disadvantages they face.

The pursuit of knowledge and wanting to understand something is admirable, but not of the expense of treating someone's life and experiences as an intellectual exercise. If you feel that you have to understand somebody's experiences in explicit detail in order to respect it, I would politely suggest that you don't respect it, and probably have no intention of.

On a related note, if I ever see anyone try to play devil's advocate I will report your intellectually dishonest rear end faster than I can skate down a hill, and trust me I skate very quickly.

It's probably time to refocus on helping others now and moving on.  We all know now that invalidation is no longer tolerated here and there is such more we can focus on, for the good of all trans.

We have to trust our mods To take care of it.  They will now.

Time to let it go my dear ones, it is time to move on.

Satinjoy

Quote from: Taka on October 03, 2014, 05:14:00 AM
as i said, my definition of normal was completely wrong.
i thought it had at least some kind of significance.
but found out that what society defines as normal really is never right, not even when they make it law.

i am completely normal, in my own definition of it.
a perfectly normal part of natural variation.
i don't conform to norms though, neither to anyone else's definition of normal.

That most definitely are words of wisdom Taka. Normal is abnormal. My gawd, some of the so called normal people I have run across make me look boring. I am far from boring and so wild that Zoologist are considering me for an exhibit. :o But there is no normal in human life. No matter what. People fool themselves all the time. I run into people that are normal all the time and the one thing they share is that they are not ever really completely normal. It is a Paradox. But we are all unique and special. That we all share the commonality of. That is not a bad thing. Diversity is about the best thing about humanity and when we fool ourselves we are the fools. We embrace it and respect it from ourselves and one another, that is the best legacy from ourselves that we can ever leave behind.

Quote from: Satinjoy on October 04, 2014, 04:58:32 PM
It's probably time to refocus on helping others now and moving on.  We all know now that invalidation is no longer tolerated here and there is such more we can focus on, for the good of all trans.

We have to trust our mods To take care of it.  They will now.

Time to let it go my dear ones, it is time to move on.

Satinjoy

Dear Satinjoy, don't take this the wrong way and no one else either but I don't care to be validated. If someone considers me invalid then that is their problem. I think a lot of times we expect validation. I don't. I will help whoever in the world I can and the best advice that I can give is don't crave validation from society or anyone else. You have to be valid to yourself first and foremost or you will never feel anything but invalid. If you feel valid to yourself, then you can be confident with yourself and when you have self confidence then you can walk down the street with your head held high and then demand others to respect you. They really don't have to validate you but as long as they respect you as a unique individual and have the right to live your own life and live it the way you want to live it then they can think what they want about. Especially about me. I don't want to live anyone else's life but my own. That is the number one thing that I have to be happy with. My life and living it the way I want. Not how someone else or everyone else, especially the whole of society, thinks I should live it.

But again. I do not depend on anything from society. I have friends, I have had lovers and those are the ones that matter or in the case of lovers, exes not so much ;) except for one and if you have a time machine I really want him back. :( I came into this world on my own, unique and different. I did have parents like everyone else though that got me to the point that I could take care of myself and that was at the age of 16. I have no children because of my "uniqueness", so when I leave this world, I will be on my own unless I outlive my lover. Or we  settle down, move to a more liberal place and marry and then adopt. But I don't need validation. I don't want validation. I take my validation. I am valid to me and those closest to me and that is all that matters or at least to me and those closest to me.

PS. I don't want to make anyone mad or hurt anyone. I love everyone here I am speaking from experience. No one is going to validate anyone else, we validate ourselves. When we do then some will respect it. Some may not, but they don't have to live your life. You do. Just like I have to live my life. And I live mine like I want to. If I want to be female then I am, if I want to be male (Yeah right ::) big fail there) or be both, then that is my choice. I have to live my life, no one else and I have to be happy and comfortable with myself and no one else. Does this make sense or am I just crazy? I personally think I am losing it but... I lost it a long time ago. :-X

Jess
I sense that you are strong, much stronger than many of us.
Perhaps early in our journeys we need or think we need more validation and recognition.  Your point that it shouldn't be necessary is fair but we are flawed, insecure, vulnerable and having been hurt, are often quick to fear or 'identify' an attack or an invalidation. Having said this as I have become more certain of my identity I am less and less concerned by what may or may not be invalidation, deliberate or unintentional.
Safe travels
Aisla

Quote from: Aisla on October 04, 2014, 11:26:25 PM
Jess
I sense that you are strong, much stronger than many of us.
Perhaps early in our journeys we need or think we need more validation and recognition.  Your point that it shouldn't be necessary is fair but we are flawed, insecure, vulnerable and having been hurt, are often quick to fear or 'identify' an attack or an invalidation. Having said this as I have become more certain of my identity I am less and less concerned by what may or may not be invalidation, deliberate or unintentional.
Safe travels
Aisla

I am definitely not stronger than anyone else here. Believe me hon, nobody is more flawed than I am. I am probably the weakest one here. I am probably the biggest coward here. We have been beaten down. We have been ridiculed, we have been put down. We all should find strength from that. We are here. We are breathing still. We have strength, more than you or anyone will ever know. Whether MTF, FTM, NB GQ, A or whatever else we call ourselves.

That is my whole point. We don't need validation. Personally I don't even want validation from society. We are who we are and as long as we are valid to ourselves that is all that matters. I am valid to myself. I know who I am. But no Aisla, I am no stronger than anyone else. As a matter of fact I am probably weaker than anyone else here. I rally hate to say that but it is true.

Jess

In that case. I will change the language  from stronger to inspiring, motivating and sensational

Really enjoy your perspective. It is refreshing, positive and empowering

Safe travels

Aisla

Quote from: Aisla on October 05, 2014, 02:17:35 AM
Jess

In that case. I will change the language  from stronger to inspiring, motivating and sensational

Really enjoy your perspective. It is refreshing, positive and empowering

Safe travels

Aisla

Hon, we are all stronger than what we think. I mean look at what we have been though. I went through it young. Some just realized but always had that feeling of being different and difference is unacceptable in society. Believe me, If someone like me that is nothing more than "chicken squat" can find any kind of inner strength, then I have faith that everyone here can. I mean no HRT even low dose for me other than what nature gave me. I'm still here, and I will be here for anyone else. I do have a little experience dealing with it but what works for me may not work for anyone else.

Jess and Aisla,

I hope I am not butting in too much.  Jess you said that you do not validate, that we are self validating. You're mistaken sugar.  Your thoughts and insistence on taking responsibility for yourself and your life is enormously validating to me and to many others. 

Both of you are teachers here, you have differing styles for sure, but as with yin and yang bring a completeness and power to these pages.  It is wild joy of being combined with articulate consideration which makes me smile just to read your repartee.  Deny it all you wish, there is strength, power and wisdom here which shines and brightens lives.

If I could, and perhaps one day I will be able to, there are maybe six or eight people I would love to gather together from around the world for a space of time to celebrate our individual and joint humanity.  Our respective ages, gender, sex, fears and issues are nothing compared to the power of our collective spirits. 

I am an old drunk and junkie, who tried to die many times and who intensely feels compassion for the lost and troubled ones here.  I come here to share my experience, strength, and hope that I and others might grow and become whole.  Without people like yourselves, lighting the path with wit and wisdom, I could not see to find my way and countless others would also wander the gloom.

The universe has been kind to me and I have been given the tools I need to do what I think is important and what I hope is useful.  On this very thread I've commented on how articulate this group is,  and among luminaries you both shine.  Well I've wandered on this love letter too long and it will morning soon,

Shalom Aleichem

Julie

maybe i'm just generally more sure of myself than most others, that's difficult to know. it didn't take me ling to learn to validate myself. it only took one simple question in search of validation here. and what i got back was the question of whether i am valid to me.

yep, my experience is real. my feelings, my soul, my existence.
so if i know that i am not that, but rather this, then i know it. right?
that's all the validation i need.

this still doesn't make me stop trying to explain whenever someone is interested to know.
but they can't make me feel invalidated, i don't need them to understand me for me to exist.
it gets annoying when people ask but don't listwn to the answer, or when they say it can't be.
but those times, i can throw some well justified rage back at them rather than cry and hide.
but i've been discriminated against for so many different reasons already, that i was perfectly used to it by my 10th birthday.
maybe it's just easier for me to take because of this experience.

Lots of good stuff here for me to learn.
Jess II am right with you dear, and everyone else. Df,all of us.

When repeated invalidation comes, and self validation was not learned early, I think it may be harder to overcome.

I namby nature a peace maker and people pleaser.  A drunk from the late nights of ny, given a chance five.

Smart phones so mess up my posts lol.  More later, love all of you, I thought I  was leaving due to the invalidating and will stay now.

I had felt hurt bad.  I am ok now.   Still so emotional, a lot like my wife, high estrogen is wild.


No worries, forgiven, forgotten, and learning self validation.

Satinjoy

I don't particularly want validation from a system that I view as inherently flawed and broken, however I am supremely tired of having to justify my life and experiences as valid, worthwhile and human to a system that views me as other.

I seek to tear down the system and replace it with something better, but some days all I want to do is sleep and to never wake up.

Taka and I are definitely on the same page here and somehow I'm wondering if a similar shared ethnicity doesn't make us less sensitive to the figurative sticks and stones that seem to break everyone else's emotional bones so easily. I'm wishing you all well in getting a tougher hide and to learn to blow off insipid comments by always first considering the source and the underlying motive and then just refuse to respond to anything intended to do harm. Response indicates a willingness to engage, non-response generates boredom and the antagonist will go away. You can't teach a moron anything new because their mind is closed, they come to the forest with an intended malicious agenda, wishing to draw an angry response to cause the thread to be locked. No-one need to buy into that game! The most pregnant question was put forth by Rodney King some time back, "Can't we just all get along?" My response is yes we can as long as both parties are truly interested.

maybe the right ethnicity has to do with it. if your ancestors came from a coastal area... those from the inland are generally insulted. kind of constantly. they're victims who see offense even where acceptance and frienship is offered.
not a general truth though. just that the few who complain are so much more visible. and annoying in their habit of never letting go of a distant past so they can get on with the future.

but what was i meaning to say... i know people of other ethnicities tii, who have grown thick hides. that self irony and taking back labels to make them less offensive, is something many have in common. but it seems the ones i know are people who've spent their entire youth and often childhood too, learning to validate themselves and be proud of what others try to shame.

Validation:

Not sure if I completely understand what people in this thread are talking about when they talk of "validation" and "invalidation", but here are my free-associated thoughts:

When I think of "validation," I think of somebody reflecting back to me a view of myself that more or less agrees with what I see when I look at myself.  An honest mirror rather than some fun-house mirror.  And gives me the feeling that they're (mostly) okay with what they see.

It's hard for me, though, because I spent my formative years being consistently told I was wrong.  What I did, what I was was just plain wrong wrong wrong.  I guess you could call it being invalidated.  And I got all my flaws enumerated to me in no uncertain terms often enough that I couldn't even pretend to have forgotten them.  Except that I couldn't relate the flaws that I was being told of (for my own good, of course) to what I could see when I looked at myself.  I built up walls to keep other people's opinions of me out, (though enough always got through to hurt), and I learned to just stay away from people, emotionally but sometimes even physically. I don't so much validate myself as transport myself to a plane of existence where there is neither validation (whose absence might hurt) nor invalidation.

So now, even if other people did try to validate me, it wouldn't get through.

Random quote:  "and if you care, don't let them know / don't give yourself away."

Well validation is toxic as it usually comes at the expense of another group, for example cis lives are viewed as being more valid than trans lives, it's not that some arch validator goes around telling cis people how fantastic they are, rather that when ever trans lives are discussed in the cis world they are done in negative and derogatory ways. When a one dimensional "man in a dress" attempt at a trans character is slapped into a film or tv series for comic relief that validates cis as normal by portraying trans as other.

I have zero desire to be validated by a system that throws whole groups of people under the bus like that. I have zero desire to live in a system like that, but I do, and because of that I am utterly tired of having to repeatedly justify my existence to that system. They're called micro-aggressions, not full on violence, but just little ways that the system reminds you every day just how other you are. They come in many shapes and forms, from catcalls to people claiming they want to understand my experiences but end up demanding that I fit my life to their preconceptions of the world.

I am not strong. I am weak, tired, scared, empty and just want peace. Somedays I fear I will only ever find that peace along the edge of a blade.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 05, 2014, 04:03:42 PM
Well validation is toxic as it usually comes at the expense of another group, for example cis lives are viewed as being more valid than trans lives, it's not that some arch validator goes around telling cis people how fantastic they are, rather that when ever trans lives are discussed in the cis world they are done in negative and derogatory ways. When a one dimensional "man in a dress" attempt at a trans character is slapped into a film or tv series for comic relief that validates cis as normal by portraying trans as other.

I have zero desire to be validated by a system that throws whole groups of people under the bus like that. I have zero desire to live in a system like that, but I do, and because of that I am utterly tired of having to repeatedly justify my existence to that system. They're called micro-aggressions, not full on violence, but just little ways that the system reminds you every day just how other you are. They come in many shapes and forms, from catcalls to people claiming they want to understand my experiences but end up demanding that I fit my life to their preconceptions of the world.

I am not strong. I am weak, tired, scared, empty and just want peace. Somedays I fear I will only ever find that peace along the edge of a blade.

What does it achieve to categorise people as "cis" or "trans"? Does that not create exactly the sort of prejudice and false perception that gives rise to the aggression you have witnessed? I have witnessed as much kindness and understanding from "cis" as I have "trans" and easily as much aggression from "trans" as I have "cis".

Quote from: cathyrains on October 05, 2014, 04:38:25 PM
What does it achieve to categorise people as "cis" or "trans"? Does that not create exactly the sort of prejudice and false perception that gives rise to the aggression you have witnessed? I have witnessed as much kindness and understanding from "cis" as I have "trans" and easily as much aggression from "trans" as I have "cis".

what do you mean, what does it achieve? trans people aren't the ones who categorized ourselves in the first place. you know who it was the first time around? it was cis people, and they created the categories of "normal" for themselves and "deviant" for trans people. you wanna talk about prejudice and false perception? you wanna talk about aggression?

man, i've never met a cis person i was out to who hasn't done something screwed up to me. i've never met a cis person who didn't dish out a little bit of pathetic pity with their "kindness." it's stuff like this that makes me care less and less as time goes on about cis people's feelings, opinions, and ideas.

Quote from: kinz on October 06, 2014, 02:40:32 AM
what do you mean, what does it achieve? trans people aren't the ones who categorized ourselves in the first place. you know who it was the first time around? it was cis people, and they created the categories of "normal" for themselves and "deviant" for trans people. you wanna talk about prejudice and false perception? you wanna talk about aggression?

You have to look at the FACT that cis people live in the binary and have been trained that way since birth. It takes a lot for them to break that mold so we can't blame them for "categorizing" trans people. It is simply their upbringing. It was not on purpose, jeesh!

man, i've never met a cis person i was out to who hasn't done something screwed up to me. i've never met a cis person who didn't dish out a little bit of pathetic pity with their "kindness." it's stuff like this that makes me care less and less as time goes on about cis people's feelings, opinions, and ideas.

I am sorry this has been your experience as not all of us have had that. I have some wonderful friends who treat me as I am. Could it be something other than being trans is causing this?

Quote from: kinz on October 06, 2014, 02:40:32 AM
what do you mean, what does it achieve? trans people aren't the ones who categorized ourselves in the first place. you know who it was the first time around? it was cis people, and they created the categories of "normal" for themselves and "deviant" for trans people. you wanna talk about prejudice and false perception? you wanna talk about aggression?

man, i've never met a cis person i was out to who hasn't done something screwed up to me. i've never met a cis person who didn't dish out a little bit of pathetic pity with their "kindness." it's stuff like this that makes me care less and less as time goes on about cis people's feelings, opinions, and ideas.

Wow.. That attitude speaks volumes..

Quote from: kelly_aus on October 06, 2014, 03:15:53 AM
Wow.. That attitude speaks volumes..

I know right? I think the anger is why the difference, not the trans status.

Quote from: cathyrains on October 05, 2014, 04:38:25 PM
What does it achieve to categorise people as "cis" or "trans"? Does that not create exactly the sort of prejudice and false perception that gives rise to the aggression you have witnessed? I have witnessed as much kindness and understanding from "cis" as I have "trans" and easily as much aggression from "trans" as I have "cis".

The oppression, prejudice and aggression existed before the labels. Gender variance in western cultures has been frowned for a long time. The cis heteronormative patriarchy without fail views cis het white males as the norm and everything else as deviations from that norm. Dehumanising language, such as referring to cis gender identities as 'normal' and trans gender identities as 'deviant' are acts of systemic violence. It reduces us to objects, removing our agency to live our own lives on our own terms. We are other, not seen as human, our lives viewed by the cistem as inherently less worthy than those of cis. We are killed because of this, our deaths going unreported (especially TWoC) and often viewed as getting what we deserve (trans/gay panic is still a valid defence in many countries). Everyday we navigate a system that finds us abhorrent and seeks to remind us if this. Every day. Having decent, human friends who treat you as a person does not mean the system is not there, it just means you are lucky enough to have decent, human friends, many don't.

And cis have the affront to view being labeled as such an act if aggression, not because it dehumanises them, but because it reminds them that they are not normal, merely more common.

The willingness people have to generalize from their own experience in this thread is really disturbing. There are trans people who have been abused and mistreated by cis people. It is unsurprising that their attitudes might be a bit different from your own. If you don't know anything about someone's life I would strongly recommend you don't make assertions regarding their personality or behaviour for fear of casting yourself as rather insensitive. If you were under the misapprehension that you are behaving well or appropriately perhaps now would be a good time to review your posts, reconsider your words and issue apologies where appropriate.

And for the record, I really, really miss Nero. He never would have tolerated this complete failure of etiquette in our forum.

It saddens me to see instances of people taking 'sides' and 'US' and 'THEM' attitude doesn't fit my perceptions.

I consider gender to be a sliding scale going from 100% male all the way over to 100% female and very very few people would hit either extreme and I also think that your place on the scale can and does change over your lifetime.

Alice
xx

I present full time as non binary (mostly as bearded lady) so I'm often asked what I am boy or girl? I say a bit of both.  If I'm having an intelligent conversation and are asked what I am biologically as I say "when I was born a dooctor looked between my legs and said "It's a boy" and I've been fighting that ever since". Yesterday I was at an event for International Lesbian Day and was asked about my pronoun preferance My responce was that ze/zere are perfect, but that she was acceptable.

Quote from: Sarah7 on October 06, 2014, 04:41:45 AM
The willingness people have to generalize from their own experience in this thread is really disturbing. There are trans people who have been abused and mistreated by cis people. It is unsurprising that their attitudes might be a bit different from your own. If you don't know anything about someone's life I would strongly recommend you don't make assertions regarding their personality or behaviour for fear of casting yourself as rather insensitive. If you were under the misapprehension that you are behaving well or appropriately perhaps now would be a good time to review your posts, reconsider your words and issue apologies where appropriate.

And for the record, I really, really miss Nero. He never would have tolerated this complete failure of etiquette in our forum.

I've been used and abused plenty for being trans.. I've been abused here for being non-binary. That doesn't mean I have to lower myself to the same level as those haters. 

Ok let me explain what my ideal of validation and invalidation is. When I can look in the mirror and be sure that the person looking back is me. That I can walk down the street and not feel 2 inches tall or scared that someone is gonna' say something negative that will harm my self image. That when they do and they do sometimes, I am still self confident enough in myself for them not to let it destroy my whole day. And maybe just maybe say something that will change something in the way they think. No that rarely ever works but still... A more positive reaction from me may put a more positive image of the whole community in their own minds. That when I get home and look in the same mirror that I see the same person inside and out as I did that morning. Sill sure of myself, still confident and sure who I am.

Invalidation would be just the total opposite. When you look in the mirror, you aren't as confident with who you are. That if someone says something negative on the street it hurts you, its always gonna' hurt it is just a matter of how fast the wound heals. And how bad you let them effect you own self image, self confidence and how bad you let them turn a positive day or feeling into a negative day. That means to me that you are letting others control how you see yourself, fell about yourself and effect your Psyche, brought to you my "normal" society and so called seemingly "normal" people.

I am extremely lucky. I had to read books on psychology, no gender therapist anywhere near where I grew up. SO I really either had to accept myself or hate myself. I won't lie there are times I still hate myself and there're times that dysphoria takes over. But I can usually nip that in the bud before it blooms into a real monster.

I am so sorry because I know there are other here now that are going through what I went through a long time ago and believe me. I made it through and I am not uncommonly psychologically strong. Way far from being that. Some of you have heard me say quite a few times, society doesn't have to accept me. I don't have to accept society either. Maybe my disdain for society has made me look elsewhere for my own validity and I just happened to find it. Society has never really accepted me anyway and maybe that is why I have never really tried to fit in with society. Maybe those of us that have tried and actually could look like they fit in with society are the ones that are having the biggest problems. I never could fit even when I tried, and I've tried many times and always failed. And that is what helped me.

But we have all been shunned and hurt by society. We have been psychologically abused and in a lot of cases physically abused by society. That is why I tell everyone that they have strength that they have no idea they have. It's just a matter of finding it. I'm lucky because I found mine early on, but it still doesn't make me immune to dysphoria and lack of self confidence and question my own self image. But the bouts aren't near as severe and last that long. But that strength starts with you and being sure of who you are to yourself and not letting no one else take that self image away. Or to me it does anyway. If someone laughs at me, I don't get angry or mad or let it bring me down. I look at them and see a lot about them that I could laugh at or criticize but I don't. This lets me walk away feeling confident and strong. It hurts my feelings, no lie and I could very easily hurt theirs too. And learning to think like that gives me the control over myself and takes control away from the person that tried to make themselves feel bigger. Does any of this make sense?

For those of us that are just starting this crazy journey especially if ya'll have been able to sort of blend in with society, I won't lie, it is hard. Seeing yourself as you want to instead of the way other people decide to see you is extremely hard if we depend on others for our own self image. Once we can fully instill in our selves a self image of who we are and are confident in that then other people's vision of you doesn't matter as much anymore. But like I said earlier, I am not stronger than anyone else, as a matter of fact there are plenty that are way stronger than me. It is just a matter of learning how to deal with society and not looking to society to define who you are. Most "normal" people that I run across let society define themselves especially when it comes to gender. I know guys that hate watching football games, but they do anyway because it is expected of them.

I don't want to insult anyone or hurt anyone. To me everyone is a human being, not man or woman but another human and we are all unique and special. I believe that we have strength that the rest of society can't even comprehend all of us all across the spectrum.

Quote from: cathyrains on October 05, 2014, 04:38:25 PM
What does it achieve to categorise people as "cis" or "trans"? Does that not create exactly the sort of prejudice and false perception that gives rise to the aggression you have witnessed? I have witnessed as much kindness and understanding from "cis" as I have "trans" and easily as much aggression from "trans" as I have "cis".

I guess the same thing it achieves by any categorization. It saves you lots of words. Much easier to say "cisgender" than "someone whose birth sex matches their gender identity", right?

Pushed right back into that same circle of invalidation (so sick of that word now).
It wouldn't surprise me if this thread was locked.
But then it wouldn't surprise me if it's not, either.

We are not their enemy, but they think we are theirs.
Ativan

Outa this.
Outa here.
Ativan

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on October 06, 2014, 11:13:06 AM
Simple terms, and an offer to field any questions that the person has.

Uh - Dev, we've already discussed the fallacy of wasting our life's energy talking to those who have extreme binary views, it's like having a discussion with a statue of a Cigar Store Indian. This being very similar to your previous experience and lack of understanding and acceptance as a cross dresser by the militant MtF population. It does really suck my friend!

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on October 06, 2014, 12:05:56 PM
I'm just answering the question the O/P asked, Shan. Doesn't it still work that way here?

Sure, but it would be helpful if you read the entire thread before responding. I have found that it saves me from foot in mouth syndrome and a lot of other people's toes don't get entirely squashed by my opinion. Just saying!

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on October 06, 2014, 12:26:42 PM
I watched the recent binary/non-binary issues. I saw the posts and threads deleted. You ran into the exact same militant mindset I did. I don't care about any of that, it's water under the bridge. If the thread has been so sidetracked that I can't reply to the question of how I would handle the matter, it should say so.

It hasn't, I'm only pointing out that having to continually explain oneself as a non-binary to people who appear to be continually baiting an argument with an underlying denigrating manner of discourse is a waste of time, we aren't going to backtrack and try to reinvent that wheel again.

I've removed my posts. I misunderstood the topic.

unable to quote, i will abstain from pointing fingers...

it think we should always consider the possibility that a person is venting frustration, letting off steam, when they post bitter and aggressive posts directed at society or a generalization of the vast majority. maybe they are doing this because something just happened, or they haven't been able to work through those feelings yet, ot they don't have anyone offline to whom thwy can express these particular feelings.

the feelings or frustrations people express in a single post in an answer to something that might have triggered a little more aggression than usual, maybe even justified anger, should not be taken as respresentative for the person's overall personality or attitude. not even for their usual attitude in the matter they responded to.

it doesn't seem constuctive to any discussion, to discuss each other's attitude or personality. i would rather want to know what you agree or disagree upon regarding the view the person presented.

though i suppose it's up to our mods to look out for what could be seen as personal attacks or labeling, so i won't say anything more about this for now.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on October 06, 2014, 03:15:20 AM
Quote from: kinz on Today at 02:40:32 am
what do you mean, what does it achieve? trans people aren't the ones who categorized ourselves in the first place. you know who it was the first time around? it was cis people, and they created the categories of "normal" for themselves and "deviant" for trans people. you wanna talk about prejudice and false perception? you wanna talk about aggression?

You have to look at the FACT that cis people live in the binary and have been trained that way since birth. It takes a lot for them to break that mold so we can't blame them for "categorizing" trans people. It is simply their upbringing. It was not on purpose, jeesh!

man, i've never met a cis person i was out to who hasn't done something screwed up to me. i've never met a cis person who didn't dish out a little bit of pathetic pity with their "kindness." it's stuff like this that makes me care less and less as time goes on about cis people's feelings, opinions, and ideas.

I am sorry this has been your experience as not all of us have had that. I have some wonderful friends who treat me as I am. Could it be something other than being trans is causing this?

I don't understand your shouting and what you are trying to say. I demand that you explain it and being binary to me.
I don't get What your point is, it's to binary for me to understand, I need you to explain this binaryism, it's to different from non-binary thinking and understanding

Topic is Locked for now.