This may seem like a weird question but I don't know, I've always wondered about this: are some trans guys kind of sexist/misogynistic? I ask this because I feel like this is my case and I don't know if it's because I'm trans or it's just me, like maybe because I'm not attracted to women (nor men for that matter, I'm asexual) or for some other reason.
But don't take me wrong, I don't mean thinking that women are "inferior" and should stay in the kitchen and all that crap. That's not the kind of sexism I meant, what I mean is thinking that men are the "default" / "normal" / "desirable" gender. Like for instance, everyone assumes God is male, right? the Bible says so although no one knows for sure but that's still how it should be you know? imagine a female god lol. Or with most films and tv shows, the main protagonist/hero is usually a guy, it's Spiderman not Spiderwoman for a reason! And it's not necessarily about having a dick, that's beside the point. I'm talking about maleness in general, being a man.
Why would anyone want to be female anyway? I understand "feeling" female like cis-women and MTFs do therefore having no choice, but it's kind of sad that they weren't born/gave up being male. I'm not trying to be offensive, just curious if this line of thinking is just me or other trans guys think like this too. Not sure if most bio men do but I guess so. In my case I believe that men and women deserve the same rights and everything but at the end of the day the better ones like God should be male.
Quote from: Manny on October 01, 2014, 04:16:11 PM
This may seem like a weird question but I don't know, I've always wondered about this: are some trans guys kind of sexist/misogynistic? I ask this because I feel like this is my case and I don't know if it's because I'm trans or it's just me, like maybe because I'm not attracted to women (nor men for that matter, I'm asexual) or for some other reason.
Yes, some trans* guys are misogynists - as are some trans* women, cis men and cis women.
Quote from: Manny on October 01, 2014, 04:16:11 PMBut don't take me wrong, I don't mean thinking that women are "inferior" and should stay in the kitchen and all that crap. That's not the kind of sexism I meant, what I mean is thinking that men are the "default" / "normal" / "desirable" gender. Like for instance, everyone assumes God is male, right? the Bible says so although no one knows for sure but that's still how it should be you know? imagine a female god lol. Or with most films and tv shows, the main protagonist/hero is usually a guy, it's Spiderman not Spiderwoman for a reason! And it's not necessarily about having a dick, that's beside the point. I'm talking about maleness in general, being a man.
Most Neo-Pagans that I know see "God" as female, but that's besides the point. It's obvious that most of this is societal - yes, it's sexist, even subconsciously, IMHO.
Quote from: Manny on October 01, 2014, 04:16:11 PMWhy would anyone want to be female anyway? I understand "feeling" female like cis-women and MTFs do therefore having no choice, but it's kind of sad that they weren't born/gave up being male. I'm not trying to be offensive, just curious if this line of thinking is just me or other trans guys think like this too. Not sure if most bio men do but I guess so. In my case I believe that men and women deserve the same rights and everything but at the end of the day the better ones like God should be male.
I don't even have words for these comments that in any way constructive or polite.
Remember to keep all responses in line with the TOS. Thanks!
now I'm confused, I thought God was female
Misogyny exists in all crowds. There's no point in debating its merits. There will be people who are offended when you say sexist stuff. There are people that will laugh. There are people that won't care. It's a matter of opinion.
I apologize if this has offended some people, honestly this is not meant to be an insult towards women in any way. (I've been on this board for a while now and I'm sure people who know me know that I'm not a bad person and have honest questions.) In fact I feel bad about myself sometimes. I don't think it's a very sexist way of thinking but still to some degree it probably is and that's wrong. I understand that, even though other times I think I'm right. Hmm so basically, this is not something trans guys usually think, but rather something that exists in all kinds of people in general? (not sure if women truly think like that though, why would they think bad about themselves? - well not bad, but you know what I mean).
Btw I didn't know some people believe God is female, is that really true? That's funny, I mean it's fine but still, in my mind it just feels so wrong to even consider the possibility that God would be anything other than male. :/
Why do you think "the better ones like God should be male"? What do you think makes men a better fit than women?
People are people. The fact that you are proud of degrading anyone who identifies strongly as female is a horrible and warped sense of thinking. This is a support forrum...and this is such an unsupportive thing to say to anyone who identifies as anything but on the far masculine end of the gender spectrum.
QuoteI don't mean thinking that women are "inferior" and should stay in the kitchen and all that crap. That's not the kind of sexism I meant, what I mean is thinking that men are the "default" / "normal" / "desirable" gender.
This is a distinction without a difference. If it's more desirable to be a man, then it's less desirable to be a woman. This could only be because women are inferior to men.
(Big, big hint here: they're not.)
The fact that "God" is believed by so many (at least of the monotheistic persuasion) to be male is
evidence of misogyny, not proof that misogynists are correct. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefiringline.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Frolleyes.gif&hash=0a0b44ad1de7ecfd5b4be1ab5919f433c770be5f)
Uhh not trying to be a D!ck.. But saying a trans woman gave up on being a man sounds super offensive...
they weren't men to began with..
but I can get what your saying though... I use to wonder why would anyone wanna be female and deal with the crap they deal with a daily bases. But I can also give them props and I certainly admire them.
Quote from: Manny on October 01, 2014, 04:16:11 PM
Why would anyone want to be female anyway? I understand "feeling" female like cis-women and MTFs do therefore having no choice, but it's kind of sad that they weren't born/gave up being male. I'm not trying to be offensive, just curious if this line of thinking is just me or other trans guys think like this too. Not sure if most bio men do but I guess so. In my case I believe that men and women deserve the same rights and everything but at the end of the day the better ones like God should be male.
This is probably the biggest, most offensive load of sexist bullspit I've ever read here.
"the better ones like God should be male." Can you not see what is wrong with that statement? True equality will never happen while there are people on this planet who think that one gender is better than the other.
That's the thing, I can't explain it. It's not something that I could objectively say: "God should be male for X and Y reasons opposed to women who lack X and Y". That's why I say that I respect women and men equally and they deserve the same rights and everything, because both genders have the same skills / intelligence / goodness etc.
But still, it's the feeling that men are the default gender, like the protagonists of this world/life, therefore its creator should be male. It would just make no sense to have a female God, I mean sure she (he) would still have accomplished the same things and would love humanity just the same, but it wouldn't feel the same, it wouldn't feel "right".
I'm the kind of person who values life above everything else, and since we supposedly only live once, it just makes me kind of depressed that some people die as women (as secondary characters), like if their life hasn't meant much at all. Yeah I know, life doesn't really mean much for anyone, mine probably has no meaning at all, but at least being male you are somehow closer to being important in any way and that must mean something.
Tysilio, hmm but less desirable doesn't equal inferior. I didn't mean it that way, I don't think women are inferior, I have a great respect for them as I said. Perhaps I do think that men are somewhat "better" (not physically/mentally, but like spiritually) but that doesn't make women inferior. I don't mean it like that. :/
Aquawhatever: You're right, bad wording, I apologize, although I meant it more in the sense that they are half-way already, having a male body, but of course they only give up their bodies not their minds, just like us transguys. Seems like you do think a bit like me haha, I was kind of surprised that I was the only one, although I really didn't know what to expect either.
Supremecatoverlord, I'm not "proud" of thinking this way, and I'm definitely not trying to degrade anyone, sorry if it may have come out this way but it's not, I only mean well haha, but I guess my thinking can upset people that's why I normally don't talk about this (in fact no one IRL knows that I think this way), but today I was just too curious not to. I'm starting to regret it though, maybe it's better if no one else reads/answers this thread because it seems like it's really sexist and I don't want to upset people further. I'll find the answer elsewhere (don't know where though, definitely not tumblr as they are all feminists XD, but I was thinking of a poll or something). At any rate, thanks everyone for your answers, and again I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to.
God and adam
Quote from: MannyTysilio, hmm but less desirable doesn't equal inferior. I didn't mean it that way, I don't think women are inferior, I have a great respect for them as I said. Perhaps I do think that men are somewhat "better" (not physically/mentally, but like spiritually) but that doesn't make women inferior. I don't mean it like that. :/
Nope. You can't have it both ways. If men are "better," then women are "not as good." "Not as good" equals inferior.
To say that men can be better without women being worse is mere weaseling, and a complete failure of rational thought and use of language.
Quote from: Manny on October 01, 2014, 06:35:23 PM
But still, it's the feeling that men are the default gender, like the protagonists of this world/life, therefore its creator should be male. It would just make no sense to have a female God, I mean sure she (he) would still have accomplished the same things and would love humanity just the same, but it wouldn't feel the same, it wouldn't feel "right".
I'm the kind of person who values life above everything else, and since we supposedly only live once, it just makes me kind of depressed that some people die as women (as secondary characters), like if their life hasn't meant much at all. Yeah I know, life doesn't really mean much for anyone, mine probably has no meaning at all, but at least being male you are somehow closer to being important in any way and that must mean something.
Tysilio, hmm but less desirable doesn't equal inferior. I didn't mean it that way, I don't think women are inferior, I have a great respect for them as I said. Perhaps I do think that men are somewhat "better" (not physically/mentally, but like spiritually) but that doesn't make women inferior. I don't mean it like that. :/
Perhaps have a good look at what you've said here. There is some latent sexism that you might be missing..
There's nothing wrong with actual feminism, which in correct practice is what most think as humanism, and is about equality for all.
Equating something as better is an immediate degradation of the latter.
Please consider your feelings towards one gender being superior is not why you are transitoning either. You're condoning living in a sexist world by everything you say to your post and even perhaps falling prey to it.
Quote from: Tysilio on October 01, 2014, 06:00:36 PM
This is a distinction without a difference. If it's more desirable to be a man, then it's less desirable to be a woman. This could only be because women are inferior to men.
(Big, big hint here: they're not.)
The fact that "God" is believed by so many (at least of the monotheistic persuasion) to be male is evidence of misogyny, not proof that misogynists are correct. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefiringline.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Frolleyes.gif&hash=0a0b44ad1de7ecfd5b4be1ab5919f433c770be5f)
Actually the only reason people refer to God as him he and his, is because Adam was here first then God took rib from Adam and made Eve, also if you listen to like teachers and what not they always use a masculine pronoun first, God is actually genderless to answer your question. Other than that I can see why someon would fine this post offnsive especially the second paragraph, Lets not act like us men don't go through anything, we equally deal with things male or female no one has it harder.
Whoa. Lots has been said. But I'll keep my reply short and simple. I think anyone can be misogynist despite their gender, like someone said in the thread earlier it exists in all crowds. And IMO I think God is genderless but I dunno why some refer to God as male. If were an actively practicing monotheistic individual then I would probably refer to God as genderless and with neutral pronouns.
Quote from: Manny on October 01, 2014, 06:35:23 PM
It's not something that I could objectively say: "God should be male for X and Y reasons opposed to women who lack X and Y".
I see what you did there.
But in all seriousness...
I think I can understand you preferring a male body physically because that's the body type you desire and your dysphoria may even make it difficult to understand why anyone would prefer a female body. However, what I don't understand is seeing the male body or "maleness" in general as superior. Most societies are patriarchal so the belief that males are more superior is simply a social construct.
As for the spiritual aspect of things, I'm agnostic so I don't want to comment on god's gender but I suggest you take a step back and educate yourself more about religion in general. Since gender is a physical and social construct I would think that the spirit or soul would transcend those things but that's just my thought.
I understand where you are coming from absolutely. I have personally had to deal with my own thinking/feeling on it. I used to be pretty sexist when I was young. I think it's imoprtant to talk about it, especially if we want to give it up. I have always been extremely interested in the male aspect of everything. For instance, I love Greek mythology, but I would discard all female gods(excluding Artemis) because I saw them as weaker therefor irrelevant. I would always question a woman or argue with what they said but, never a man. I would trust them to make the right decision/ give the right advice.
I stopped thinking that way when a lot of things women go through started happening to me. Once I hit puberty and it dawned on me that I was one of them in a sense all of the sexist stuff I was ignoring came outta the woodwork. I started looking into the jokes more, I started seeing the same dismissiveness I had been applying to them. I even recognized the "privilege" sometimes given to them, when it was really just men thinking them weaker. I've changed my way of thinking and the only thing that helped me to change it truly was being able to talk about it even though I knew I would be judged for it.
I still stand by my opinion of talking though it without being to harsh.
People are people. No one is better than anyone else. There is no better gender. The idea and belief that male is "normal" is crock. I'm stepping out.
Edit: I wanted to add that I came back after thinking some more. I realized that what I posted originally was knee jerk and I should have just taken a breath. I think that everyone faces certain issues with what they believe, and I'm not an exception. I think for some folks who are gender variant, it can be easy to fall into certain ideas because we aren't necessarily happy with how we perceive ourselves.
That being said, I do stand by with what I said before: no one is better than anyone else and at the end of the day, our differences (gender, color, language, religion, etc.) are shallow compared to the whole. We're all human and we are all equal.
to be frank, most people who are sexist don't care if you identify as a male and are really a guy inside. They see someone born female the same as all other females, so really, your beliefs make zero sense. Based in your biology alone you are grouped with women in our society and until you pass and are stealth you will probably be treated as such. So I would reconsider your attitudes towards women if I were you because many people will consider you a member of that club.
I had to edit several posts. Please keep it civil, don't talk about your suspicion if a post is or is not going to be moderated or locked.
I will point out that all humans start out female in the womb it's only later in its development that the fetus differentiates sexually.
I would say your way of thinking is most likely in the minority. But if that's what you believe, that's what you believe.
I'm sort of confused as to why you started this discussion though. Are you looking for people who think like you? Trying to assess if your way of thinking is "accepted" or "normal"? What's troubling you about your ideas you wrote about?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. In my opinion, most humans are ignorant to anything but their own reality. I've had a friend tell me before, "I don't understand why anybody wouldn't want to be a man" which while ignorant is his perspective. He is a man, feels like a man, couldn't see and doesn't feel otherwise.
Bottom line, people are sexist, people are racist, people are products of their environment despite gender or ethnic background.
Why hasnt anyone mentioned mtf who are misandrists?
Quote from: viktor_tokyo on October 02, 2014, 07:52:47 AM
I'm sort of confused as to why you started this discussion though. Are you looking for people who think like you? Trying to assess if your way of thinking is "accepted" or "normal"? What's troubling you about your ideas you wrote about?
Hopefully he's starting to question his own sexist beliefs rather than looking for someone to pat him on the back and justify his sexist beliefs. At least that's what I'm hoping the point of this post was.
QuoteWhy hasnt anyone mentioned mtf who are misandrists?
Probably because that's not the subject of the thread.
Quote from: Tysilio on October 02, 2014, 11:56:18 AM
Probably because that's not the subject of the thread.
right sorry ,
all im gonna say is that when you are forced to live as something you are not , its only natural to hate everything that has to do with it
A lot of the replies I agree with but what I really don't agree with is the male is a default. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe all of us start out "female" in body and then get a rush, or don't, of hormones that change the secondary characteristics during a certain point of gestation. So in a sense female is default? At least in body. In mind (which is what matters) we start out as one or the other. Much of the ideals that one gender is better than another is highly society based. In certain cultures the man is the inferior gender, so it really can go both ways.
Also remember some gods for some cultures have absolutely no gender, or have multiple genders.
Quote from: Sebryn on October 02, 2014, 01:11:33 PM
A lot of the replies I agree with but what I really don't agree with is the male is a default. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe all of us start out "female" in body and then get a rush, or don't, of hormones that change the secondary characteristics during a certain point of gestation. So in a sense female is default? At least in body. In mind (which is what matters) we start out as one or the other. Much of the ideals that one gender is better than another is highly society based. In certain cultures the man is the inferior gender, so it really can go both ways.
Also remember some gods for some cultures have absolutely no gender, or have multiple genders.
Yes but if you look in the book of genisis man was already here God took rib from Adam and made women so I think this is why some people believe men are over women or again refer to God as him even though he's genderless.
Quote from: Manny on October 01, 2014, 04:16:11 PM
This may seem like a weird question but I don't know, I've always wondered about this: are some trans guys kind of sexist/misogynistic? I ask this because I feel like this is my case and I don't know if it's because I'm trans or it's just me, like maybe because I'm not attracted to women (nor men for that matter, I'm asexual) or for some other reason.
But don't take me wrong, I don't mean thinking that women are "inferior" and should stay in the kitchen and all that crap. That's not the kind of sexism I meant, what I mean is thinking that men are the "default" / "normal" / "desirable" gender. Like for instance, everyone assumes God is male, right? the Bible says so although no one knows for sure but that's still how it should be you know? imagine a female god lol. Or with most films and tv shows, the main protagonist/hero is usually a guy, it's Spiderman not Spiderwoman for a reason! And it's not necessarily about having a dick, that's beside the point. I'm talking about maleness in general, being a man.
Why would anyone want to be female anyway? I understand "feeling" female like cis-women and MTFs do therefore having no choice, but it's kind of sad that they weren't born/gave up being male. I'm not trying to be offensive, just curious if this line of thinking is just me or other trans guys think like this too. Not sure if most bio men do but I guess so. In my case I believe that men and women deserve the same rights and everything but at the end of the day the better ones like God should be male.
your question is why would anyone want to be female in a male dominated world.
I think of it as why would anyone want to be trans in a cis-dominated world?
I dont think anyone would want so, only in extreme caise you see women becoming men for priviliges, but the identity is bigger than the trouble they would have to face.
-
now depiste there also good thing being female, exemple female can manly wear alot more diffrent kind of clothing without taking it as a statement, I am personally pretty jelous about that.
Quote from: Natkat on October 02, 2014, 05:10:11 PM
your question is why would anyone want to be female in a male dominated world.
I think of it as why would anyone want to be trans in a cis-dominated world?
I dont think anyone would want so, only in extreme caise you see women becoming men for priviliges, but the identity is bigger than the trouble they would have to face.
-
now depiste there also good thing being female, exemple female can manly wear alot more diffrent kind of clothing without taking it as a statement, I am personally pretty jelous about that.
Not to mention us men have to hold stuff in because of what we will be seen as if we cry in public, women can cry and someone will just ask if she's ok and confort her but us, we we will get called explicit words if we do, we also tend to get called gay alot more if you do even the slightest femenine thing. Women actually have alot more privilages and once you get that male privilage like other guys it get its hard, Its not easy being any gender in my oppinion I hate when females say its easier to be a boy when its really not.
Quote from: Manny on October 01, 2014, 04:16:11 PM
Why would anyone want to be female anyway? I understand "feeling" female like cis-women and MTFs do therefore having no choice, but it's kind of sad that they weren't born/gave up being male. I'm not trying to be offensive, just curious if this line of thinking is just me or other trans guys think like this too. Not sure if most bio men do but I guess so. In my case I believe that men and women deserve the same rights and everything but at the end of the day the better ones like God should be male.
I don't think the experience of being transgender has to do with what you *want* to be. It's what you are. Actually not proud of "white males" in this country. I don't think this it's let's just say a proud tradition. I'm proud of who I am. But that's who I am inside and all that sort of thing. It includes being male because that's what I am authentically.
I don't think God is male. In Christianity (and some Western traditions) some people see God as male. I think it's an incomplete understanding of Christianity which mostly leaves off thinkers like Christian mystics and so on and places more emphasis on St Augustine and so forth. Other traditions don't have any history of thinking of God as male.
Trans guys can be very sexist. I have seen it here and other places. I think in some cases they hate the female in themselves or are overreacting to how they were socialized and feel that they need to degrade women to hold up themselves. Obviously that's wrong.
--Jay
OK. So I don't want to PO Susan. But a little bit of sexism is OK. I really could care less if a guy is a little sexist as long as he don't mind if I am a little bit feminist. As a matter of fact I love a man that is a man and clueless to anything feminine. As long as there is respect involved in the relationship. Don't ever forget guys that behind every good man there is a woman. But....When I want a man I want a man, if you forget that little diddy about, "Behind every good man, there is a woman" I won't let you forget. ;) And if you ever do that is fine too. If I have to ride your coat tails that is fine. If I have to push you to greater things that is fine too. OK does that make sense?
OK so Jess42 is totally insane legitimately now. But not really though. It is after all a game of give and take, you give and I take or I give and you take. ???
It does take to tango. Who leads is totally up to the one that I am involved with. The Tango is a pretty rough dance and kind of mimics true life.
But I could care less if you are sexist or not.
Quote from: aleon515Trans guys can be very sexist. I have seen it here and other places. I think in some cases they hate the female in themselves or are overreacting to how they were socialized and feel that they need to degrade women to hold up themselves. Obviously that's wrong.
I think this is right on target, Jay. I think some trans guys also see it as a way of fitting in with cis men, many of whom say pretty foul things about women when none are present. I've always had a few good friends who are cis men, but I don't ever hang out with sexist guys , so that's not an issue for me.
On the other hand, when I was presenting as (sort of) female, I occasionally said mildly critical things to female friends about things that women do -- I can't say them now that I'm presenting as male, because my cis women friends take it as sexist, where they used, pretty much, to roll their eyes and agree. Insiders can say things about their own that outsiders can't.
Good to know that MtFs aren't the only ones who are constantly spouting sexist BS on this site. :P
It comes with the territory of being trans, apparently. Growing up in a gender that you never identified with, and being subjected to its standards and socialization and constantly hating every minute of it, makes a person bitter. And it's easy to make the jump to not being able to see a single positive thing about it because you hated it so much.
It happens both ways.
Quote from: Brandon on October 02, 2014, 04:54:56 PM
Yes but if you look in the book of genisis man was already here God took rib from Adam and made women so I think this is why some people believe men are over women or again refer to God as him even though he's genderless.
The part he took is important. If it was a bone of the foot she would be seen as beneath him, if it was a bone of the head she would be seen as his ruler, but it was the rib so that they would be seen as equal halves who complement each other.
Well, I don't think I'm sexist- If anything, I'd say women are superior, just don't know how they do it ;D
I don't see God as gendered, though calling God "He" does make sense since the english language doesn't have an official neutral pronoun, and it's how it's been said throughout my life. One thing though, I used to hate gendered pronouns but since transitioning, I don't have a problem and don't think it's too much of a big deal for he to be the default. I would like to see a gender neutral pronoun come about and be used frequently, but in the mean time I think those cultural left overs from previous mysogyny can be overlooked.
FTMs are *completely* capable of saying BS. I know quite a lot of them. LOL.
I think this is similar to what I was saying. Some people kind of hate who they may have been forced to be. Unless they examine their motivations and so on.
I think I had a very different background. I was very active in the early women's movement. I have always been very happy with that. But of course, I am not really "allowed" to be quite as much of a feminist now that I have transitioned. I get stares and so on, like I could not possibly understand this stuff.
--Jay
Quote from: Carrie Liz on October 02, 2014, 06:09:30 PM
Good to know that MtFs aren't the only ones who are constantly spouting sexist BS on this site. :P
It comes with the territory of being trans, apparently. Growing up in a gender that you never identified with, and being subjected to its standards and socialization and constantly hating every minute of it, makes a person bitter. And it's easy to make the jump to not being able to see a single positive thing about it because you hated it so much.
It happens both ways.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on October 02, 2014, 06:09:30 PM
Good to know that MtFs aren't the only ones who are constantly spouting sexist BS on this site. :P
It comes with the territory of being trans, apparently. Growing up in a gender that you never identified with, and being subjected to its standards and socialization and constantly hating every minute of it, makes a person bitter. And it's easy to make the jump to not being able to see a single positive thing about it because you hated it so much.
It happens both ways.
I don't think it is exclusively a trans thing. I really truly and honestly don't mind a guy trans or cis that is a little sexist. I am a little feminist after all. Like I said give and take and respecting each other's viewpoints. I don't want to be masculine in a relationship. I want the man to the man. Cis man or transman. I definitely want to be the female half. I have no desire to add any masculinity into a relationship. I want him to be the man and I want to add the femininity half to the relationship. Yeah it may be a stereotype but that is life. males are masculine and females are feminine and the two halves make the whole complete.
Yeah it sounds kind of corny and crazy but not really though.
Quote from: Jess42 on October 03, 2014, 01:47:51 AM
I don't think it is exclusively a trans thing. I really truly and honestly don't mind a guy trans or cis that is a little sexist. I am a little feminist after all. Like I said give and take and respecting each other's viewpoints. I don't want to be masculine in a relationship. I want the man to the man. Cis man or transman. I definitely want to be the female half. I have no desire to add any masculinity into a relationship. I want him to be the man and I want to add the femininity half to the relationship. Yeah it may be a stereotype but that is life. males are masculine and females are feminine and the two halves make the whole complete.
Yeah it sounds kind of corny and crazy but not really though.
As a feminine man, I resent the notion than men are masculine and women are feminine. I also strongly disagree that a femme/femme or masc/masc relationships are somehow "incomplete" - it simply isn't true.
Now, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being attracted solely to masculinity - there isn't. There also isn't anything wrong with not wanting to be masculine. But please, think of how many people's identities you're denying by saying things like that. It's not just feminine trans men, either - there exist masculine trans women, and they're every bit as woman as you are.
Quote from: littleredrobinhood on October 03, 2014, 01:57:44 AM
As a feminine man, I resent the notion than men are masculine and women are feminine. I also strongly disagree that a femme/femme or masc/masc relationships are somehow "incomplete" - it simply isn't true.
Now, I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with being attracted solely to masculinity - there isn't. There also isn't anything wrong with not wanting to be masculine. But please, think of how many people's identities you're denying by saying things like that. It's not just feminine trans men, either - there exist masculine trans women, and they're every bit as woman as you are.
You are totally right. But I have gay family members and it seems that one is masculine an the other more femme. Even though both are clearly and identify as male I also have lesbian family member and one seems one is more femme and the other more butch. Again both identify as totally female.Not to mention countless friends, lesbian and gay friends that seem to follow this trend.
Personally I am bi so male or female, I want to be the more feminine. Yes I am lipstick and another lipstick is fine but I want to be either the more feminine or equal feminine. So yeah. I may have been wrong with the male and female making whole. But it does seem like most meaningful and longer lasting relationships I have had has been where I was female and my partner was the more assertive dominating male persona.
Quote from: aleon515 on October 03, 2014, 01:39:42 AM
I think I had a very different background. I was very active in the early women's movement. I have always been very happy with that. But of course, I am not really "allowed" to be quite as much of a feminist now that I have transitioned. I get stares and so on, like I could not possibly understand this stuff.
Jay makes a really good point here. As FTM's take on the male role and begin to blend in, I think it's only natural to take on a bit of sexism as well. I'm not talking about an actual sense of superiority, but when interacting with other guys it's very normal to make fun of another guy for "being a girl" or a sissy.
Last year I was watching a football game and a fan was holding up a sign that said "Tom Brady sits when he pees." I thought that was pretty clever. And in my opinion it's no different from feminists referring to guys as nothing more than sperm donors. Each gender identifies with their own.
I don't take on the sexism to fit in, wouldn't do it. I think I tend to be read as gay because I'm not too masculine. I don't actually care too much, "I yam what I yam". :)
What I thought I was saying was that now talking about feminism, I can't really do this as if I know anything really. I wouldn't really be trusted. But no, I refuse to get into sexism. I will actually question sexist statements and so on.
--Jay
Quote from: katiej on October 03, 2014, 02:09:41 AM
Jay makes a really good point here. As FTM's take on the male role and begin to blend in, I think it's only natural to take on a bit of sexism as well. I'm not talking about an actual sense of superiority, but when interacting with other guys it's very normal to make fun of another guy for "being a girl" or a sissy.
Last year I was watching a football game and a fan was holding up a sign that said "Tom Brady sits when he pees." I thought that was pretty clever. And in my opinion it's no different from feminists referring to guys as nothing more than sperm donors. Each gender identifies with their own.
I think that another potential reason some trans men turn to sexism is because they believe that it's "natural" for guys to think that way. And if you don't look closely, it might seem like that, because sexism is very common among cis men.
And some may be aware that it isn't "natural" - and even that it's wrong - but still crack misogynistic jokes and the like so they'll "fit in".
I mean, trans people in general already have to jump through hoops to "prove" that they are what they say they are.. but men - sexist men in particular - would be quick to doubt your gender if you spoke up about some misogynistic remark he made, because a lot of sexist men seem to believe that the only reason a man would dare side with "the feminists", is so he'll "get laid". So in their mind, the only reason a trans man would speak up in defense of women would be if he "weren't really a man".
I'm sure there are similar things between cis men - where cis guys disagree with something their sexist friends said or did, but don't speak up about it because he knows he'd lose those friends by doing so.
Jay, I didn't mean to say that you've taken on the sexist banter that is common among guys. Your point was that as we transition, we aren't always taken seriously advocating for our birth-assigned gender. I see that.
One of the advantages of being trans is the ability to see the world accurately from both sides. But as we blend into our new gender roles, I can see that we often try to distance ourselves from our birth-assigned gender. And it would be easy in social situations to accept, if not relish, the common digs aimed at the other gender.
I'm admittedly really tired right now, so I didn't read all of the replies to this post. However, I want to respond to the OP, so if this may have been stated before I'm glad someone else is on the same wavelength.
Maybe it's a possibility that you're sexist because being FAAB is so loathsome (to you) that you project your feelings of disgust for your own body onto others who are female bodied. Especially towards those who are content in a body that you could never find happiness in yourself.
I would think that a contributing factor to misogyny or misandry by trans people is growing up being bullied or ostracized by members of one's birth sex. I have heard this from both sides, and it often manifests itself in the form of gender bashing.
Trans guys are generally as sexist as cis guys. You've got some that aren't by much, and others that really are.
I grew up thinking girls were stupid because I was taught that most girls hate dirt and bugs and RC cars, love pink dresses and gossip and Barbies.
I began assuming very early on that I'd never be able to relate to girls. And that they just generally had bad taste in hobbies and clothing.
But all of these things were socialized into me, constantly giving me reminders of gender messages through family, media, etc. Gender roles and ideas constructed over many years by a society that has a nasty habit of dividing itself.
Most of what the OP said looks to me like the result of these same kinds of social constructions. I feel like you might want to spend some time looking at the base ideas behind each of these constructs and try to tear them down a bit.
When I started hanging out with feminists who advocated being yourself over performing a gender, I found that I could relate. And I came to understand that male being the default is part of a social construct. That this construct and many others around issues of gender serve the purpose of privileging men and disempowering women.
You mentioned you never even thought of the idea of God as a woman. I think some of the things you said that people may have find offensive were probably other things that you've just always thought of in certain ways, and never seen another side to.
There are definitely sexist transmen. And transmen with a history of sexism like mine, resulting from the internalization of misogynistic messages that are pervasive within society. Some of us grow out of it when we learn more about ourselves, some when we learn more about others, some by pure luck, and some never grow out of it at all.
All I knew, before I really started examining these things, was that if being a girl meant you had to like Barbies, I was done with being a girl. And done with anyone who was okay with that definition of being a girl.
Luckily, I learned that that's not really the definition at all.
Though I'm still done as hell with being a girl.
It's a shame that it has to be spelled out that gender identity and gender expression are not the same thing, especially here.
Quote from: Manny on October 01, 2014, 04:16:11 PMWhy would anyone want to be female anyway? I understand "feeling" female like cis-women and MTFs do therefore having no choice, but it's kind of sad that they weren't born/gave up being male. I'm not trying to be offensive, just curious if this line of thinking is just me or other trans guys think like this too. Not sure if most bio men do but I guess so. In my case I believe that men and women deserve the same rights and everything but at the end of the day the better ones like God should be male.
*flys in randomly*
I think it just comes with the territory of being male to not be able to fathom why someone would want to be female, and vice-versa for females not being able to fathom why someone would be comfortable being a guy. I don't think this is sexism.
Yes, there may be some genuinely sexist trans men, but if anything, actually the trans community--particularly the trans male community--seems hyper-sensitive to sexism; or, at least, there are a few loud guys who jump at everything that could be remotely construed in their imagination as offensive to women and chastise other men for voicing their opinions or thoughts in that regard. (It's part of the reason I've avoided trans guy Facebook groups lately that aren't very specific to some kind of interest.)
Perhaps it is subconscious. Maybe some trans men, like yourself, feel weird about females, or feel weird about "rejecting" the gender assigned to them at birth, and then perhaps feel guilty that they do because it could be seen as "rejecting" women. Maybe some guys feel this way and overcompensate by being snappy to anyone who is not an overt feminist. Maybe some other guys instead have explicity negative thoughts about women. I don't know.
Yeah I think I misinterpreted what you said, but I agree with this. I very much value having lived as both genders. And do consider myself "two spirit" though I don't really use that term IRL due to not wanting to appropriate other cultures. But I know not everyone has that experience of being transgender. I think hating that side of oneself is common. I can see how that turns to sexism.
--Jay
Quote from: katiej on October 03, 2014, 02:56:32 AM
Jay, I didn't mean to say that you've taken on the sexist banter that is common among guys. Your point was that as we transition, we aren't always taken seriously advocating for our birth-assigned gender. I see that.
One of the advantages of being trans is the ability to see the world accurately from both sides. But as we blend into our new gender roles, I can see that we often try to distance ourselves from our birth-assigned gender. And it would be easy in social situations to accept, if not relish, the common digs aimed at the other gender.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on October 02, 2014, 09:17:12 PM
The part he took is important. If it was a bone of the foot she would be seen as beneath him, if it was a bone of the head she would be seen as his ruler, but it was the rib so that they would be seen as equal halves who complement each other.
My point was adam was still here first, Not only the that reference but also that us men are head of the household, It may sound sexist but that also tells you that most people view woman as beneath man. Thats not to say I believe that but some people do. I do believe I am suppose to b the provider and what not.
Quote from: Brandon on October 03, 2014, 02:17:53 PM
My point was adam was still here first, Not only the that reference but also that us men are head of the household, It may sound sexist but that also tells you that most people view woman as beneath man. Thats not to say I believe that but some people do. I do believe I am suppose to b the provider and what not.
What about lesbian househlods?
Quote from: Jill F on October 03, 2014, 02:24:06 PM
What about lesbian househlods?
Well it said nothing about that and I am not gonna state why because it will offend some people.
Quote from: Brandon on October 03, 2014, 02:17:53 PM
My point was adam was still here first, Not only the that reference but also that us men are head of the household, It may sound sexist but that also tells you that most people view woman as beneath man. Thats not to say I believe that but some people do. I do believe I am suppose to b the provider and what not.
If you can't see the latent sexism here, there's no hope for equality..
Quote from: Jill F on October 03, 2014, 02:24:06 PM
What about lesbian househlods?
Or gay households?
I see sexism as just a another form of insecurity. Thinking your better than the other gender is just a mask of that side of yourself that you are afraid of. Because nobody is 100% male or female. ;)
Quote from: Brandon on October 03, 2014, 02:17:53 PM
My point was adam was still here first, Not only the that reference but also that us men are head of the household, It may sound sexist but that also tells you that most people view woman as beneath man. Thats not to say I believe that but some people do. I do believe I am suppose to b the provider and what not.
I don't really think that the imagery of how Eve came to be matters I. The long run considering how women are treated in the Bible, which is what helps to perpetrate the treatment they receive.
Quote from: kelly_aus on October 03, 2014, 02:32:47 PM
If you can't see the latent sexism here, there's no hope for equality..
Or gay households?
I didn't say I agreed with that, And it states in the bible tha homosexuality is wrong , Thats why heres nothing in the bible about gay or lesbian households not that I see anything wrong with gays.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on October 03, 2014, 02:46:48 PM
I don't really think that the imagery of how Eve came to be matters I. The long run considering how women are treated in the Bible, which is what helps to perpetrate the treatment they receive.
I know and I don't agree with how they are treated in the bible at all I am just stating why some may have thoes beliefs.
Quote from: Brandon on October 03, 2014, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: Jill F on October 03, 2014, 02:24:06 PM
What about lesbian househlods?
Well it said nothing about that and I am not gonna state why because it will offend some people.
You obviously have some issue with lesbians here..
Quote from: kelly_aus on October 03, 2014, 02:51:58 PM
Well it said nothing about that and I am not gonna state why because it will offend some people.
You obviously have some issue with lesbians here..
No I do not read my other post I just said I have no problem with homosexuals, But since God apparently doesn't agree with thats why theres nothing about that.
Quote from: Brandon on October 03, 2014, 02:54:36 PM
No I do not read my other post I just said I have no problem with homosexuals, But since God apparently doesn't agree with thats why theres nothing about that.
This is not an issue of religion. This is an issue of being a decent human being.
Quote from: kelly_aus on October 03, 2014, 03:13:12 PM
This is not an issue of religion. This is an issue of being a decent human being.
And I already said I have no problem with homosexuals again.....
To the concept that males are the generally the protagonists-
I would argue that this is the sense that one will get when they identify with a particular gender. If males feel like the protagonists, that is most likely because a person identifies as male internally; therefore, they see the world through a male view. To me, I feel the other way around. Take a second to feel fortunate that this is the case because the world would be pretty mundane if everybody was the same and saw the world through the same looking glass. If that was the case, there would be no need for this interesting conversation.
To the assertion that it feels more correct for God to be a male than a female-
Depending upon your system of beliefs that you've created or adopted, many females and even males identify with a female Goddess. Inversely, many females identify with a male God. Sometimes this depends upon the system of beliefs that was adopted or even thought up. Additionally, this could also depend on if your beliefs are monotheistic or polytheistic. In my case, I consider myself polytheistic; therefore, there are both male Gods and female Goddesses. I do not in any way impose or suggest that anyone adopt my system of beliefs. In the more popular monotheistic religions, the supreme being is mostly characterized as Male. This could be a result of the fact that males are physically dominant to females. That being said, other types of animals do not share this trait. While males are typically stronger, other species have not evolved the same way such that the social order is Matriarchal.
Because of the physical domination, a lot of sexism exists that tends to perceive males as being superior. The fact is that both sexes are different and have different strengths and weaknesses without which the human race would not survive. Yes many believe men are better, and many believe women are better; however, I would argue that this way of thinking only shows how limited we are in our own thinking. The fact is that, as humans, we are social beings that require each other in order to succeed. Yes, as individuals, we may value our own strengths above the strengths of others, and sometimes I think this is what it means to strongly identify as one gender vs. another. But to completely think that the battle of sexes is won, the victory goes to <insert your preferred gender>, then I say you've missed something. The truth is that it is ongoing. We now live in an age where superior strength does not necessarily equate to superiority.
Why would anybody want to be female?-
Given the idea that males are superior, the question seems to answer itself. If it is better, why would anybody pick what is considered "worse". The fact is that not everybody sees things the same way. To me, being female feels better. To me, being female also feels like a better fit for me. I feel as though it is a place where I belong. You have to try to look at other points of view.
Quote from: Brandon on October 03, 2014, 02:54:36 PM
No I do not read my other post I just said I have no problem with homosexuals, But since God apparently doesn't agree with thats why theres nothing about that.
The Bible also says you shouldn't wear mixed fabrics, eat shellfish, wear cross-gender clothing, etc. You know how many Christians are against what we are doing to our bodies, because the Bible says it's an abomination for people to wear clothing meant for the opposite sex? Leave the Bible out of GLBT conversations, it doesn't belong there.
Quote from: Simon on October 03, 2014, 04:11:47 PM
The Bible also says you shouldn't wear mixed fabrics, eat shellfish, wear cross-gender clothing, etc. You know how many Christians are against what we are doing to our bodies, because the Bible says it's an abomination for people to wear clothing meant for the opposite sex? Leave the Bible out of GLBT conversations, it doesn't belong there.
It actually says nothing about transgenders that was referring to crossdressers dude, technically we are wearing the right clothing, and my comment was not even at you someon asked why we refer to God as male and I explained so calm down.
Quote from: Brandon on October 03, 2014, 04:55:56 PM
It actually says nothing about transgenders that was referring to crossdressers dude, technically we are wearing the right clothing, and my comment was not even at you someon asked why we refer to God as male and I explained so calm down.
I'm perfectly calm, don't assume my demeanor. It's easy to cherry pick the Bible, make things to suit your own way of thinking, people have done it for millennia. Most evangelicals would say that God created cis men & women with no room for variation. They would say we are playing God by changing his creation. You know it's true. I remember a long time ago you saying your mom was against transition.
All I am saying is to not toss God out into a discussion about GLBT people because it doesn't work. They would say if God intended for you to be a man he would have made you one physically, so how is it correct to point fingers at GLB people by using the same God?
Quote from: Simon on October 03, 2014, 05:16:15 PM
I'm perfectly calm, don't assume my demeanor. It's easy to cherry pick the Bible, make things to suit your own way of thinking, people have done it for millennia. Most evangelicals would say that God created cis men & women with no room for variation. They would say we are playing God by changing his creation. You know it's true. I remember a long time ago you saying your mom was against transition.
All I am saying is to not toss God out into a discussion about GLBT people because it doesn't work. They would say if God intended for you to be a man he would have made you one physically, so how is it correct to point fingers at GLB people by using the same God?
First of all I already am a Man ,All I said was it said nothing about trans people, thats my mom vs numerous people who believe God intended for me to be male with an ambiguaous body, Everyone who I knows I am male even all my teachers and pratically the whole administration, Don't try and flip the script its says something abiut homosexuals cross dressers and that's it did I say I agree with it NO!!!!!! And again someone asked why we refer to God as male. And you honestly thnk I give a damn about what my mom thinks another NO!!!
Yet again this thread is going nowhere.
Locked.