Well, I've been on Susan's quite a bit this weekend. I got the resort closed down and am almost caught up at work so I wanted to spend some time here. Transition wise, the past few weeks have been difficult for me. So, while reading a post about suicide attempts and passing, I began to wonder how many actually transition to the point where they settle into themselves? What is the success rate? Out of 100, how many of us eventually get there? I tried the scientific literature for some survey or obscure dissertation and didn't find anything.
Any ideas? How many of us make it? Are there any commonalities to a successful transition?
I don't know...
Hugs to all,
Jen
Self-acceptance, confidence, realistic expectations, support, perspective, patience, a sense of humour, the ability to act on what can be changed and acceptance of what can't, a degree of equanimity... I expect these are all qualities that are variously needed for a successful transition... and even then they may not be enough. :-\
As for the percentage of success, I wish it were high, but I have some reservations about that.
Quote from: Ms Grace on October 05, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
Self-acceptance, confidence, realistic expectations, support, perspective, patience, a sense of humour, the ability to act on what can be changed and acceptance of what can't, a degree of equanimity... I expect these are all qualities that are variously needed for a successful transition... and even then they may not be enough. :-\
As for the percentage of success, I wish it were high, but I have some reservations about that.
Could not have said it better myself.
One has to accept and just move on with there life.
Have no idea of numbers of success other then I feel I am one.
To be honest my transition has been pretty smooth but that's only because I put a ton of work into myself prehrt and had been working on my voice for about 2 years prior to starting hrt. So I'd say I've had a pretty successful transition so far. However I feel like once you have the depression monster in your life and you've been through a deep depression for most of your life, its very tough to truly ever shake. You just learn how to bounce yourself back and cope with it as you live while doing the best you can to minimize what can trigger it. However not everyone is able to do that even after a lifetime of dealing with depression, that's why support is just so crucial. Which society as a whole lacks. Thank goodness for the internet!
And it seems the majority of community goes through a deep depression because we can't be ourselves or we can't always transition when we really wish we could since our environments sometimes don't allow us to. A lot of our families disown us and society's ignorance and hatred for us just makes all of this even worst. So it's practically an inevitability that at some point or another we end up in a very depressive state of mind, especially those of us that figure out we're trans from a very young age. Its more than enough having to deal with our dysphoria and the pain that comes with it, its crazy how many things we have to go through unnecessarily just to be who we're meant to be. If the world was truly accepting of us (supporting families) and we all had access to quality health/mental care then I really think the suicide rate would drop considerably.
So who knows how many have had successful transitions since many of us end up just living our lives and moving on from the trans community. It's not so much people that are living stealth but just living their life I think. And depending on what country they live in, they could possibly be killed for "being out" We definitely need more studies done since there just isnt barely any research but as usual that all takes money and time. Those of us that fully transition I think are in the minority and there are far more gender queer/androgynous peeps then us that go through the full hrt/surgery path.
What is a successful transition though? In my opinion its when you attain peace and a healthy perspective of yourself, not at war with your mind and body. You no longer have dysphoria holding you back from living your life and your personal transition goals have been met. Also that you're finally truly happy with who you are as an individual.
Sitting here and thinking about it I'm at 70% there to a fully successful transition.
For many of us NOT transitioning is what success is all about. There are many degrees of dysphoria. My goal is to do the minimum required to keep the dysphoria down to an acceptable level.
For me that means HRT and removal of body hair. I am hoping to avoid the expense and disability involved with SRS. I intend to keep both my marriage and my ample breasts. I don't want to pretend to be anything I'm not. I'm not a woman, not really. I'm not a man either. I'm something else entirely. My desire is to more fully abandon manhood and to come closer to the woman I would like to be.
I'm actually doing pretty good on that. No one who saw me naked would think I was a man. I'd settle for being 51% female.
Randi
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on October 05, 2014, 11:39:28 PM
. Those of us that fully transition I think are in the minority and there are far more gender queer/androgynous peeps then us that go through the full hrt/surgery path.
What is a successful transition though? In my opinion its when you attain peace and a healthy perspective of yourself, not at war with your mind and body. You no longer have dysphoria holding you back from living your life and your personal transition goals have been met. Also that you're finally truly happy with who you are as an individual.
What is a successful transition? Good question and I suspect the answer is different for all of us.
My therapist set me free a couple of weeks back, with the comment that he saw no need for me to have ongoing therapy. He also made the comment that I was a 'strong, happy and confident woman.' And I don't disagree. I live my life as a woman.. I'm accepted as a woman. People assume I'm a woman until I open my mouth and mention my past - and after the initial surprise wears off, things go right back to the way things were before I flapped my gums.
I've not had SRS and can't due to medical reasons. I label myself woman, even though it's not the most accurate label, as it is a simple label that most understand and it close enough to the truth.
I came out in July 2010.. And I made it.
Well based on the percentage of these responses it's looking pretty good, 60-80% :o
I dare say that's not accurate though. It does make me wonder, how many do make it? But as Lady_Oracle States, what is a successful transition? I think it's a personal definition and relates strongly to peace and happiness within ones self.
Quote from: BreezyB on October 06, 2014, 01:18:58 AM
It does make me wonder, how many do make it? But as Lady_Oracle States, what is a successful transition? I think it's a personal definition and relates strongly to peace and happiness within ones self.
That's true, end of transition is set by ones own need for happiness.
I kind of wonder if the % is a majority because of the fear of " passing ". whenever a question about the importance of " passable " is proposed the majority place an extremely high value on not being seen as transgender and its not realistic to go from one gender to another perfectly. I haven't been able to find the scientific data, but just sampling the people that come and go on Susan's and the fear of "passing " I'd be surprised if it was anywhere near a majority. of course I could be wrong.
I've never considered this but considering that we have different goals then measuring this is a daunting task to say the least.
Personally I'm almost there to my original goals. HRT is taking me where I want to be and electrolysis is ditching my unwanted hair. After that I plan on adding other elements to look "pretty". Not to pass. Passing is a confidence thing for me. I see so many "women" and "girls" that could pass for the opposite gender with just a change in dress and attitude that I feel comfortable. My concerns lay with how my work place will react once the cat is truly out of the bag there. Right now I just get a bunch of comments on how I should cut my hair a grow my beard out again. [shudder] And that is so annoying and hurtful to me.
Not many. I think a lot of people, just like they come and go off the forums, comes and go off HRT. Mostly go after a time. I know, I know the confidence fairy is great and if it works for you, wonderful. But for many, when being confident, head held high and being spat at with the words ->-bleeped-<- echoing off every wall nearby there's not enough confidence in the world to make some people say screw it.
I'd say there's a 75 percent fail rate, as in, 75 percent of peeps who start HRT will stop within 1.5 years or when changes become too noticeable. I also think this condition is a lot rarer than we think and a lot of people go through trauma and then identify as transsexual when they're not and eventually realize that. Then still others have families and wives that nag them off.
Maybe I'm wrong but just from being on the forums for a longish time, and the turnover rate has to be 95 percent. Almost no one on the forums now was here when I came. Maybe 1 perecent.
When I think of a successful transition what I think of is someone who lives their lives physically as the gender they identify with.
I still have stuff to do, but by that definition I am basically already finished. I mean when I go hang out with friends in a restaurant, I am Just another woman in her late 20s to the other patrons, and my friends all know me as Vera and don't mess up the pronouns hardly anymore. The only real dysphoria I have now is when I see myself naked (a certain thing, still needs to go) or during the impossibly long process of hair removal which I haven't finished.
The thing is lots of people I think get to where I am at and just leave the forums. So when people go it is hard to know if they succeeded and just want to get on with their lives or if they are throwing in the towel or such.
I do know this only a small percentage of people I hear of talk about gender issues seem to seek actual medical treatment for it and transition.
@joanna dark: having been here even longer I see the same thing, turnover is extreme there are a few people who stick around for years but the majority just don't.
I am a product of a successful transition.. my transition was a smooth one.. it does take a lot of planning. My case i was lucky, I left my home to start my female life, with one friend. I am an only child and was written off by my parents. My mother eventually came round, and now we share a special mother daughter relationship. My father never came round and passed away before accepting his daughter.
I am now 10 months post op, i look and feel female, my therapist said I am a well adjusted young lady. I now have a close circle of friends, who know nothing of my past. I am one of the girls. My SRS, well i told them that I was having a lady op..
I cant even imagine being male anymore. From that lonely shy male, I became a outgoing woman with friends.. my life turned a 180. I am very happy. All as I need now, is that special someone.. But I am not worried, I know he or she is out there.
I have actually been thinking a lot about this lately, in terms of both how successful I've been with my transition so far, and where I would need to be to be completely happy with myself. For me, I think what a successful transition would mean is to reach the point where I could go through my life just being female without having to think about being transgender and the things I feel like I need to do to be perceived as female by others. That's actually a pretty high bar in a lot of ways, because although I'm not having that much of a problem simply passing lately (or at least presenting myself in a way that I'm comfortable with that does not attract unwanted attention), I still struggle a lot with feelings of dysphoria because of the various things about myself that keep me from feeling completely female. I've mostly managed to accept the things I can't change, such as my height (six feet isn't too bad, and I do often see cisgendered women who are as tall as I am), my bone structure (my shoulders are too broad, but they could be worse, and I think it's really not as much of an issue in practice as I originally thought it would be), and that I'm never going to be completely happy with my sexual organs (I still don't really know if I want to get SRS, because I just don't know if it would feel close enough to what women are supposed to have for me to be happy with it). But the things I can change (body hair, face structure (I've been repeatedly told it's not that bad, but still...), lack of breast development, masculine fat distribution that just doesn't seem to want to change on it's own) still drive me crazy, and I still want to get them fixed as soon as I am able to. I don't think I will ever be able to say my transition is "complete" until I've taken care of those things. But even so, I'm feeling more and more confident as time goes on that my transition will end up in the success category, and I really don't see anything happening that would change that.
I think that what really defines the difference between someone who can successfully transition and someone who can't, is where your priorities are. If you want to transition because you idolize being female and you want to be an attractive girl that gets lots of attention and gets to wear pretty dresses all the time, and expensive jewelry, and gets an incredibly attractive boyfriend, and... you get the point. ::) It's just not going to be that easy. But if you want to transition because you genuinely need to feel female to be comfortable with who you are, and nothing else really matters, then I think anyone can be successful. Since I genuinely care much more about being able to feel female than whether or not I am attractive, or anything like that, it makes it much easier to feel like my transition had gone well. If I was overly worried about those kind of things, I probably would have already started detransitioning by now.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on October 06, 2014, 08:26:21 AM
I'd say there's a 75 percent fail rate, as in, 75 percent of peeps who start HRT will stop within 1.5 years or when changes become too noticeable. I also think this condition is a lot rarer than we think and a lot of people go through trauma and then identify as transsexual when they're not and eventually realize that. Then still others have families and wives that nag them off.
Maybe I'm wrong but just from being on the forums for a longish time, and the turnover rate has to be 95 percent. Almost no one on the forums now was here when I came. Maybe 1 perecent.
Well about that... ;) I haven't been posting much here lately either, but in my case it's really just being that obsessing over being transgender all the time was becoming tiring and I didn't have a lot to talk about in terms of new developments in my transition. Sometimes being transgender just gets a little old, and you get sick of thinking about it all the time. But I never at any point stopped hormones (nor would I ever want to), and I am still working towards doing everything I feel like I need to for my transition to be complete. Soo... I dunno, I think you are being a little pessimistic, but I haven't really closely known anyone in real life other than myself who attempted to transition either.
Quote from: JLT1 on October 05, 2014, 11:01:09 PM
Well, I've been on Susan's quite a bit this weekend. I got the resort closed down and am almost caught up at work so I wanted to spend some time here. Transition wise, the past few weeks have been difficult for me. So, while reading a post about suicide attempts and passing, I began to wonder how many actually transition to the point where they settle into themselves? What is the success rate? Out of 100, how many of us eventually get there? I tried the scientific literature for some survey or obscure dissertation and didn't find anything.
Any ideas? How many of us make it? Are there any commonalities to a successful transition?
I don't know...
Hugs to all,
Jen
I suppose one would have to quantify and qualify what making it means!
Surely the goal posts are set at different points for different people. Many wish to attain the body and genitalia of the opposite gender they were born into and move on with their new female or male life, but for many the goal line is unattainable due to financial shortcomings or familial pressures, so in that respect I would assume that the failure rate is rather high.
On the other hand, there are many who move the goal posts closer finding peace through different options. These too can be considered a measure of personal success depending on the individual and how well their dysphoria comes under control.
Quote from: Ms Grace on October 05, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
Self-acceptance, confidence, realistic expectations, support, perspective, patience, a sense of humour, the ability to act on what can be changed and acceptance of what can't, a degree of equanimity... I expect these are all qualities that are variously needed for a successful transition... and even then they may not be enough. :-\
As for the percentage of success, I wish it were high, but I have some reservations about that.
I don't think I could have stated it better myself. I have done everything but SRS so far, and I already consider my transition a successful one. I want to live now, I no longer hate myself, my wife is awesome, my friends and family exceeded expectations and I had no idea that I could rock a maxi skirt so well.
I have no idea what a successful transition would be for me. But I have been going back and forth in my mind about it.
I used to think low dose was what I'd do and maybe ramp up to full transition but now not anymore because I think I do want full transition. I do need to talk to the therapist about all of this though.
Reasons being really that all of my life I have dreamed of presenting as female and now with much of the social barriers gone compared to a few years ago it might actually be better to jump feet first and immerse myself. It's my life and I need to live it on my terms.
Just based on my own little support-group family of girls in my city who all started around the same time at the same age:
-1 never made it. He got NO results, even after 6 years of HRT and an orchiectomy, and is still living as male despite still being on HRT.
-3 successfuly transitioned and are plenty passable, but are still unemployed, chronically depressed, and still constantly bringing up suicide. I still worry a lot about them. (And one of them is still this way despite having already had SRS.)
-2 are in the camp of being relatively okay with themselves but still having a lot of depressive bouts and still trying to figure out who they are, (probably because they're still dealing with serious family issues, plus passability issues, and one was dumped by her fiance for "not being mature enough" and has been questioning herself and her gender ever since.)
-5 transitioned more or less 100% successfully, and despite losing a lot career-wise due to transition, are now working new jobs as themselves, more or less completely passable, working toward SRS, and with relatively few bad days. (And 3 of them are even in stable long-term relationships!)
-1 finally did transition successfully and happily, but has a long past history of unrest, of transitioning and detransitioning multiple times before she finally settled in.
So, out of 12 of us, only three have had identity-questioning issues, with one detransitioning and retransitioning, one ending up adopting a more genderqueer identity, and one never making it. The rest are ALL still living their lives as a girls, and pretty much unwavering in regards to their identity. But despite that unwavering identity, about half of them are still struggling with depression, image issues, family issues, employment issues, romance issues, just always some issue making them depressed despite being post-transition and more or less completely passable.
So in terms of "success," as in actually making the transition and living life in that new gender role, I'd say that detransition or not ever making it to being one's identity gender seems to be pretty rare. Usually once someone is actually on hormones, they know pretty quickly that they can't go back. Even the ones with the most trouble NEVER say "I want to be male again." All of the depressed ones are more just wishing they could be cis girls. And yeah... true acceptance of their new gender role, and acceptance of being trans, and actually being happy and comfortable and a more or less normal self-assured person with few emotional issues related to being trans, seems to be about a 50/50 tossup. (And even my "successful" friends still have their days. It's just that those days are more rare for them, where the "unsuccessful" ones are constantly complaining about their issues.)
(To be fair, though, this is a small sample size, and it's all a group of MtF girls who transitioned between the ages of 25 and 35, so it's admittedly a very small subset of the trans community. I have no idea what the "success" rate would be for FtMs, younger high-school/college transitioners, or older (35+) transitioners. I don't have many friends from any of these subsets, and thus don't know enough about them to diagnose their mental states.)
You could make an unscientific poll of your own, I suppose. :) Leaving it up to people to determine whether they'd been "successful," but asking whether or not they'd detransitioned.
(I'd say I was successful, and I didn't lose anything/anyone I cared about either. Just lucky, I guess.)
Based on Carrie's assessment along with what I've seen over the years full transition hasn't always been the ultimate panacea for many who have made it due to a lot of unfortunate negative familial and societal factors.
i know here in OKC, that out of 30 TG people FTM/MTF, that pretty much 80 percent have found their comfort zone - one committed suicide, the others like myself reverted back temporarily... even though i did my HRT at first to the point of my breast grew to a barely a B-cup, which after that point i had to goto my family and let them know what i was doing "so i wouldn't freak them out showing up as a women", "they live in california and im in oklahoma". After their acceptance, transitioning wasnt a driving force anymore and the fact i didnt want to look like a man in a womens dress... that was in 2006-2008. at 2014, i want to start transitioning again with full force and are going to do the HRT again...
so you might say i havent found that comfort zone of self acceptance yet, because i still look in the mirror and just want to cry.
pretty much the same here in okc - but as described earlier, what is a successful transition...
Quote from: Carrie Liz on October 06, 2014, 11:01:22 AM
Just based on my own little support-group family of girls in my city who all started around the same time at the same age:
-3 successfuly transitioned and are plenty passable, but are still unemployed, chronically depressed, and still constantly bringing up suicide. I still worry a lot about them. (And one of them is still this way despite having already had SRS.)
-2 are in the camp of being relatively okay with themselves but still having a lot of depressive bouts and still trying to figure out who they are, (probably because they're still dealing with serious family issues, plus passability issues, and one was dumped by her fiance for "not being mature enough" and has been questioning herself and her gender ever since.)
-5 transitioned more or less 100% successfully, and despite losing a lot career-wise due to transition, are now working new jobs as themselves, more or less completely passable, working toward SRS, and with relatively few bad days. (And 3 of them are even in stable long-term relationships!)
-1 finally did transition successfully, but has a long past history of unrest, of transitioning and detransitioning multiple times before she finally settled in.
So, out of 11 of us, only two have detransitioned and retransitioned, with one ending up adopting a more genderqueer identity. The rest are ALL still living their lives as a girls, and pretty much unwavering in regards to their identity. But despite that unwavering identity, about half of them are still struggling with depression, image issues, family issues, employment issues, romance issues, just always some issue making them depressed despite being post-transition and more or less completely passable.
So in terms of "success," as in actually making the transition and living life in that new gender role, I'd say that detransition seems to be pretty rare. Usually once someone is actually on hormones, they know pretty quickly that they can't go back. Even the ones with the most trouble NEVER say "I want to be male again." All of the depressed ones are more just wishing they could be cis girls. And yeah... true acceptance of their new gender role, and acceptance of being trans, and actually being happy and comfortable and a more or less normal self-assured person with few emotional issues related to being trans, seems to be about a 50/50 tossup. (And even my "successful" friends still have their days. It's just that those days are more rare for them, where the "unsuccessful" ones are constantly complaining about their issues.)
(To be fair, though, this is a small sample size, and it's all a group of MtF girls who transitioned between the ages of 25 and 35, so it's admittedly a very small subset of the trans community. I have no idea what the "success" rate would be for FtMs, younger high-school/college transitioners, or older (35+) transitioners. I don't have many friends from any of these subsets, and thus don't know enough about them to diagnose their mental states.)
Also, I thought I'd share this:
Out of that group of girls who are post-transition, here's an interesting statistic to chew on:
Out of the 5 girls who are chronically depressed, a whopping 4 of them are unemployed and on Social Security Disability. Only 1 of them is working.
Out of the 6 girls who aren't depressed, 5 of them are working, and the other one is in college working toward her eventual career goal.
Employment: It gets you out of the house, away from your own self-destructive thoughts, and REALLY helps you feel like you have a purpose in life and aren't just a miserable self-loathing pile of crap who nobody wants to talk to and who will never be accepted.
Get out of the house. It helps. :)
Quote from: Shantel on October 06, 2014, 11:12:58 AM
Based on Carrie's assessment along with what I've seen over the years full transition hasn't always been the ultimate panacea for many who have made it due to a lot of unfortunate negative familial and societal factors.
As an afterthought to try and expand on my previous brief comment, those negative familial and societal factors quite often never really go away and frankly I think many of us have our head in the sand concerning that and assume that once we're post-op and up and running that all will be just fine and go away as if we were born cis types. The resultant depression comes from being unable to cope with that reality and can turn into a train wreck, in which case it might be better for some to follow up with continued therapy to develop some coping skills rather than to resort to drastic measures like de-transition or suicide.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on October 06, 2014, 11:51:53 AM
Also, I thought I'd share this:
Out of that group of girls who are post-transition, here's an interesting statistic to chew on:
Out of the 5 girls who are chronically depressed, a whopping 4 of them are unemployed and on Social Security Disability. Only 1 of them is working.
Out of the 6 girls who aren't depressed, 5 of them are working, and the other one is in college working toward her eventual career goal.
Employment: It gets you out of the house, away from your own self-destructive thoughts, and REALLY helps you feel like you have a purpose in life and aren't just a miserable self-loathing pile of crap who nobody wants to talk to and who will never be accepted.
Get out of the house. It helps. :)
Being unemployed and not getting out has been a big problem for you in the past. Your current job seems to be helping you.
I really don't know how to quantify success. Right now, part way through transition, I'm already feeling better in mind and body than at any point in my entire life. At some point along the way I stopped caring almost entirely about whether or not I passed. Not sure why but probably because I never experienced any negative reactions from anyone anywhere while presenting female in my 'unpolished' state. Do I pass? I actually have little idea because no one has made an issue out of it. This doesn't mean I consider my transition complete - it just means that I'm a lot less stressed out by what is still to come. I'm seriously considering going full-time soon even though I'm not a finished product. In this way I treat every achievement to come as a bonus and it means I don't have to drop a sudden bombshell of a finished product on the last wave of people I have to come out to and betting everything on being convincing-enough to them.
I guess I am successful because success for me represented a change of mental state, most importantly as it concerned shedding the awful and unwarranted self-consciousness I grew up with. At each step of the way my mind seems to be positively in the lead over the other elements of my transition. I other words, preparation has been key. I understand that I could live out the rest of my life happily the way I am now but that the rest of my transition will proceed as matter-o'factly as puberty did and can only get better from here on. I went into this at the beginning with the realization that I could go on and be at peace even if I lost every family member and friend. So far everyone I've come out to is still with me.
I think it's important to keep in mind that there are a lot of people out there that either had other unresolved issues before starting transition or that don't handle bad situations well. I don't mean to sound insulting when I say this because transpeople do often end up in some really nasty spots that are unavoidable. What I mean to say is that in the population as a whole there is a significant percentage that are overly emotional about everything and allow small stresses to affect them far to much or avoid dealing with personal issues until they explode. I see it every day around me - it's what makes the world run like a soap opera. So I would suggest that the percentages of depression and turmoil probably aren't that much different from everyone else cis whether or not the transperson is bringing some of it on themselves. Let me qualify this better:
I remember back when I was in a therapy group there was one person who blew up a meeting because they were a drama queen and also had a number of unresolved personal problems. But there was also another who claimed to have come out successfully to everyone they knew and had a stable, rational mind, but then weeks later left a meeting in tears because something was going very wrong socially for them. Both were doing very well at passing as female. I think it is really important to look at your transition and separate the negatives that don't have anything to do with your achievements, particularly if those situations are beyond your control. If you can make a very successful physical transition and pass to most people but your life is still full of theatrics, it doesn't mean you failed or should halt your transition or medication or revert your identity. If there are people in your life that are causing you grief it's time to cut the cord and move on. As difficult as it may be it can't be worse than staying swimming in the shark tank.
Employment problems, housing access and poverty are a whole different beast. I know well about these issues because my clinic is open-access to the whole community. Still, backing out of transition isn't going to help in those respects.
I have an advantage in my field of work and my employer. I'm a nurse at the VA which has a very inclusive policy in regards to employing people with alternate gender identities (as stated very clearly in the mission and employee handbook). I also have very firm support from my mother and the friends I've told so far. I think my outcome may be pretty decent with work, friends, and family support.
Quote from: Wynternight on October 06, 2014, 12:58:48 PM
I have an advantage in my field of work and my employer. I'm a nurse at the VA which has a very inclusive policy in regards to employing people with alternate gender identities (as stated very clearly in the mission and employee handbook). I also have very firm support from my mother and the friends I've told so far. I think my outcome may be pretty decent with work, friends, and family support.
Congrats :icon_bunch: VA nursing is a pretty secure field to be working in. I'm having cataract surgery Wednesday at VA Puget Sound, they've taken pretty good care of me.
Quote from: Shantel on October 06, 2014, 01:10:16 PM
Congrats :icon_bunch: VA nursing is a pretty secure field to be working in. I'm having cataract surgery Wednesday at VA Puget Sound, they've taken pretty good care of me.
Ah, so now rather than us seeing a clearer picture of you, you'll be seeing a clearer picture of us! ;) (...says the girl behind the mask, cheekily...)
Quote from: Shantel on October 06, 2014, 01:10:16 PM
Congrats :icon_bunch: VA nursing is a pretty secure field to be working in. I'm having cataract surgery Wednesday at VA Puget Sound, they've taken pretty good care of me.
I'm happy to hear you're getting good there and very best wishes for your surgery. :icon_bunch:
Quote from: Shantel on October 06, 2014, 01:10:16 PM
Congrats :icon_bunch: VA nursing is a pretty secure field to be working in. I'm having cataract surgery Wednesday at VA Puget Sound, they've taken pretty good care of me.
As an aside I've been thinking if I ever move out of Alaska it will be to WA state since it's a much more trans-friendly state.
Throughout my life (56 now), I've known many girls in our situation and I've seen only one revert back to male and one who became female outwardly but identifies as a hetero male inside but can only cope with the loss of his wife in this fashion (oddest case I've ever seen). Most of the girls that I've known have gone on to have successful lives. Of all my t-peers, I am the only one who has not yet had surgery but look forward to the day I decide on a doctor whose technique and results appeal to me.
What is successful to one, may not be the case with another. I speak for myself when I say that I've never been happier in my life because of my present husband. I was first married at 18, then again at 27 and my third in early 40's. With the latter, I've raised a wonderful son, and to them I owe the gift of motherhood.
So a successful work life working for well know individuals as executive assistant, a wonderful husband and son, working in community groups, Yes I would say I am successful to date. Success however one interprets, is something that I wish for all the girls starting out, or going through whatever difficulties in life we face.
Quote from: Wynternight on October 06, 2014, 01:21:12 PM
As an aside I've been thinking if I ever move out of Alaska it will be to WA state since it's a much more trans-friendly state.
The west side of the state surely is, maybe you'll be my nurse some day!
Quote from: Shantel on October 06, 2014, 02:11:04 PM
The west side of the state surely is, maybe you'll be my nurse some day!
It could happen. :D
I'm thinking of going to UW for my BSN and MSN since their student insurance now covers trans-related healthcare.
Quote from: Wynternight on October 06, 2014, 02:25:04 PM
It could happen. :D
I'm thinking of going to UW for my BSN and MSN since their student insurance now covers trans-related healthcare.
Good plan, let me know when that happens, we'll do lunch and I'll show you around.
Quote from: Shantel on October 06, 2014, 02:28:37 PM
Good plan, let me know when that happens, we'll do lunch and I'll show you around.
Sounds good. :)
I'll probably be there in March for my two year followup visit from my bariatric surgery. I think I'll take a loot at the clinic there if I do make it.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on October 06, 2014, 08:26:21 AM
Maybe I'm wrong but just from being on the forums for a longish time, and the turnover rate has to be 95 percent. Almost no one on the forums now was here when I came. Maybe 1 perecent.
And that is good news! This is a SUPPORT site. People leaving presumably no longer need support. So them not coming back is a sign of success!
some also rejoin under different user names *cough cough*
Quote from: JLT1 on October 05, 2014, 11:01:09 PM
Well, I've been on Susan's quite a bit this weekend. I got the resort closed down and am almost caught up at work so I wanted to spend some time here. Transition wise, the past few weeks have been difficult for me. So, while reading a post about suicide attempts and passing, I began to wonder how many actually transition to the point where they settle into themselves? What is the success rate? Out of 100, how many of us eventually get there? I tried the scientific literature for some survey or obscure dissertation and didn't find anything.
Any ideas? How many of us make it? Are there any commonalities to a successful transition?
I don't know...
Hugs to all,
Jen
What a great question and probably one of the reasons why I ended up coming here. Back in the day when I was doing my thing I was helped by others who were successful in their transitions. When I neared the end of my journey I helped a few others. Of course you first have to start by saying what successful is. Is it just surviving? Or living a good life afterwards? Or career success? or a combination?
Since you asked, I will offer my 2 cents for whatever it's worth. To be successful in this endeavor requires a number of things:
* Being brutally honest with oneself. When I started off I knew I needed FFS or there wasn't a chance in hell that I would be where I am today. It didn't do anything EXCEPT to give me a boost in confidence, which it actually did do.
* realizing that all of this talk about passing is horse poop if you have the right mind set
* realizing that getting clocked is part of life and will happen all the time regardless if you have 1 or 50 surgeries or none, M2F or F2M
* realizing that by virtue of one's birth we do not fit the ideal mold of men or women.
* realizing that hormones are not miracle girl (or boy) pills. They don't solve anything.
* this process isn't about SRS. The standards are there to make sure that the right people get this surgery based on the best scientific evidence that existed when they were created.
what it takes to be successful at this endeavor: patience and lots of it, resolve (I was amazed at the number of people who wanted to talk me out of SRS when the day approached), a level head, realizing that one might lose it all, a good plan and a back up plan in case plan A fails.
The most important thing is cash, lots and lots of cash. It took me unbelievable sacrifices to get too where I am. I went for years with a busted up pickup truck, no cable, bills running from month to month just to keep the lights on. But electrolysis costs boatloads of money and took me 3 years, even though I thought I wasn't hairy. In the beginning I was doing 3 - 4 hour sessions per week. Want to talk about expensive! I got up at 4AM every day and would be at work at 5:30AM, so i could walk out at 3PM and hop in my car and drive all the way to Boston from Hartford, just so I could do electrolysis. I was so busy I lost all of my friends, I fell out of touch with supportive family. I was too busy gestating in my own little cocoon until the day I was ready to face the world.
Saving up for surgeries was crazy and having to pay for therapy was ridiculous. I paid for my own therapy, blood work, doctor visits, endo visits. I was poked, prodded and turned over with a fine tooth comb as I'm sure anyone else can chime in on.
I literally feel like I have to spit in the eye of mother nature every day and say "You know you screwed up right? I was made to be this way." and just go live a life.
The whole process was very life affirming for me. I feel I came out the other side a better person. I am amazed at how much more social and easy going I am now compared to the timid and introverted person I was before. I feel like I can hand with anyone. And you want to know something interesting, people love that, especially successful people.
So here I was living a life, doing my own thing, disappeared from the community for many a year, and then I wondered one day. Am I the only one like me in the world? Am I the only one happy and contented and made my peace with the world? Or are there others like me? So I came here. You know what I found? I'm not alone, there are others who have done it all, survived, made their peace and living a nice quiet life.
So that's it in a very small nutshell, money, resolve, daring to be different, daring to step out the front door and say "Hello World here I am!". That's just my perspective.
Here is my situation
Physically, much remains to be take care off... SRS is a must in the bucket list. However, the voice surgery is at the top of the list. It is the only thing that gives me away. SRS is a must because of the boyfriend, and the fact that I do not want to die with that thing between my legs. My will stipulates that the penis must be removed before any funeral services shall I die before SRS....
Socially, I am done with the transition as I am fully accepted and respected in my community, temple, and places of employment... that is despite the deep voice... :)
Emotionally, I have never been so happy in my life... I would not be here have it not been for my five kids who relentlessly push me down the path of transition
Have I made it ? Well, despite the physical short coming I would say, yes I have made it.
I read somewhere that the % of people who have genuine regret about pursuing transition is in the single digits. I believe that our overall success rate is quite high.
Quote from: Juliett on October 06, 2014, 07:38:33 PM
I read somewhere that the % of people who have genuine regret about pursuing transition is in the single digits. I believe that our overall success rate is quite high.
The common thought is that post-op regret runs a single digit %. Transition regret? I suspect that might be much higher - how many detransition?
I'm not sure how to respond. So let me just say there's no shame in having to stop. I know some girls have ended the journey and begun again at a more emotionally stable time. I'd much rather have our sisters find some peace is a living decision, and not have to make a distresed choice for the ending alternative. I know this isn't exactly what you asked, but it's what I feel.
As for me ... from the start I've said "I'm never going to stop, or turn back."
K
Quote from: kelly_aus on October 06, 2014, 07:41:33 PM
The common thought is that post-op regret runs a single digit %. Transition regret? I suspect that might be much higher - how many detransition?
Ditto. You can quantify SRS, since they keep track, but no one keeps track, or even can keep track, of hormonal transition and subsequent detranstion. A rudimentary reading of this or any trans forum suggests it is higher than single digits. There are prolly many who start, and stop months later, making excuses or whatever for their good luck to stop--before it's too late. Change is scary. It makes sense many would stop. But who knows?
One thing to note is that people are often more vocal during the bad times than the good times. It's easier (or more tempting) to talk about the difficulties and fears of transition than it is to talk about the good stuff. I can't say I have succesfully transitioned (still have much work to do) or that I don't still have difficulties (I certainly do), but things are getting better as I move forward and am confident that I will be where I want to be one day. As such, I don't really post as much or feel the need to in the same volume that I once did. I imagine there are many that are similar in their posting habits. So, even if people disapear and the negative side is more prevalent, it doesn't have to mean that many don't come out okay on the other side of things. From what I see, they kind of just go on living there lives happily and that's that. Can't wait for that myself.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on October 06, 2014, 08:26:21 AMI think a lot of people, just like they come and go off the forums, comes and go off HRT.
. . .
Maybe I'm wrong but just from being on the forums for a longish time, and the turnover rate has to be 95 percent. Almost no one on the forums now was here when I came. Maybe 1 perecent.
This is probably a pretty good way of getting some insight into the original question. I've seen it too; aside from a good number of regulars here, there's a huge turnover. People stick around for a month, maybe a little more, make a few posts and then disappear.
Now, do we consider those kinds of initial investigations and toe-dipping exercises as actually starting transition and then quitting? For many, just finding out the realities of the process might be enough to either make them realize that they aren't transgender after all, or that they don't want to transition. Both would be successful outcomes: the goal surely is to find an identity one is comfortable with?
Out of those who commit to transitioning and start taking hormones, and whose end goal is presenting as the opposite to their birth gender, I think the success rate is modest. Once the decision is made, the closet is left, and there's little room for backtracking (socially, psychologically and medically), the only way to go is forward.
I believe the success rate is less more like 35%. I have read that close to 30% succeed at suicide. If half the remaining drop out, it's 35%. I hope that I am wrong.
A job and money. That came to me from this topc. Support is good, passing is good but the job and money seem to outweigh everything else.
I defined a successful transition as one where a person "settles into themselves". I'll stick with that one. It is the "place" where I am trying to get. It is like sitting beside a fire after working all day in the bitter cold, it is sitting in that stuffed chair that fits just perfectly, it is being inside my physical body and being home. And for me, it is peace.
I'm there sometimes. Sometimes, I am not. For me, I need SRS. I can't say why but I do. It's not for everyone but it is for me. The journey is different for all of us.
Hugs,
Jen
Quote from: JLT1 on October 06, 2014, 08:31:25 PM
I believe the success rate is less more like 35%. I have read that close to 30% succeed at suicide. If half the remaining drop out, it's 35%. I hope that I am wrong.
A job and money. That came to me from this topc. Support is good, passing is good but the job and money seem to outweigh everything else.
I defined a successful transition as one where a person "settles into themselves". I'll stick with that one. It is the "place" where I am trying to get. It is like sitting beside a fire after working all day in the bitter cold, it is sitting in that stuffed chair that fits just perfectly, it is being inside my physical body and being home. And for me, it is peace.
I'm there sometimes. Sometimes, I am not. For me, I need SRS. I can't say why but I do. It's not for everyone but it is for me. The journey is different for all of us.
Hugs,
Jen
the comfy chair seems about right
Somthing that I feel bears mentioning is, there isn't really such a thing as a "failure" when it comes to transition, since it's never too late. Even if someone finds it too difficult or burdensome at one point in their life, that doesn't mean they'll never give it another try. Sometimes people just need time to mature. Sometimes people just go into it thinking it will be easier than it actually is, and after the reality hits them they're more prepared on the second go.
Either way, it's never too late to make yourself happy and improve your life for the better. I think that fact makes it pretty much impossible to talk about a success rate of any sort.
Quote from: riversong on October 06, 2014, 10:33:42 PM
Somthing that I feel bears mentioning is, there isn't really such a thing as a "failure" when it comes to transition, since it's never too late. Even if someone finds it too difficult or burdensome at one point in their life, that doesn't mean they'll never give it another try. Sometimes people just need time to mature. Sometimes people just go into it thinking it will be easier than it actually is, and after the reality hits them they're more prepared on the second go.
Either way, it's never too late to make yourself happy and improve your life for the better. I think that fact makes it pretty much impossible to talk about a success rate of any sort.
Agreed. One thing I realized about my own situation is that I hadn't reached the right level of personal growth to start transition earlier than I did (at age 35). Even if I had concluded earlier that I was trans and needed to go that route I don't think I could have been successful. It's unfortunate that I wasn't able to sort this out much earlier and had the chance to go through my young adulthood as my gender of choice, but I know it couldn't have turned out any other way. I think there would have been a point in time where I might actually have been mortified if presented with the idea that I needed to live as a woman. In the end I reached the right conclusion at the right time for me and I don't fret much over the wasted past.
Quote from: JLT1 on October 06, 2014, 08:31:25 PM
I believe the success rate is less more like 35%. I have read that close to 30% succeed at suicide. If half the remaining drop out, it's 35%. I hope that I am wrong.
A job and money. That came to me from this topc. Support is good, passing is good but the job and money seem to outweigh everything else.
I defined a successful transition as one where a person "settles into themselves". I'll stick with that one. It is the "place" where I am trying to get. It is like sitting beside a fire after working all day in the bitter cold, it is sitting in that stuffed chair that fits just perfectly, it is being inside my physical body and being home. And for me, it is peace.
I'm there sometimes. Sometimes, I am not. For me, I need SRS. I can't say why but I do. It's not for everyone but it is for me. The journey is different for all of us.
Hugs,
Jen
Being able to 'settle into oneself' is a lot more than gender. How many cis gendered people can say that? Gender is just one part of what makes us individuals at least from how we choose to present and express ourselves.
Is it just SRS which is getting you down or are there other issues on your mind as well?
A good question but ultimately rhetorical. Does it mean 'make it to the end of the planned journey', 'make it to a better place' or 'make a difference to your life.' Folk change, destinations change, priorities change and success measures change. When embarking on a journey it is the learning, the growth, the experience, the enjoyment, the peace, the self acceptance which seems to me to be most important. Rushing to a destination may be risky and in the end sub optimal. Who knows other than the person who travels whether they have had success or 'made it'.
Given that this is subjective and that this is a support site where many pass through without major challenges I suspect that the 'success' figure is extremely high. One thing is clear, those that don't take the first step will not find success or 'make' progress with their lives, and that appears to be a waste of the precious opportunity that a human life offers.
Safe travels
Aisla
Hi, Everybody!
I've been following this thread without comment so far, but at this point I've decided to throw in my 2c worth. My remarks aren't directed at any one individual or any one viewpoint, but address this question generally.
My feeling is that when this issue is raised, there's a risk of it becoming a biased question. That is, we regard a successful transition as a "full transition" that allows the person in question to live happily ever after.
My feeling is that we shouldn't look at it this way. The goal should be finding a way to live as happily as possible, and it doesn't necessarily imply fully transitioning. We all know this. We all know that we're all individuals with different needs, and we each need to find our own individual path to happiness.
I generally find the whole discussion of "transgender regret" unsatisfactory, mainly because it's usually presented as an all-or-nothing affair: either you totally regret transitioning or you don't regret it in the least.
This is simplistic. It's a rare person who finds pure and unalloyed happiness after transitioning. This doesn't imply that they regret having transitioned. It simply means that you never get everything in life.
Consider this analogy: not long ago my son was considering a job offer. The job he was working at the time was making him extremely unhappy, so unhappy that he actually collapsed at work one day and had to be taken to the hospital. Obviously, he needed another job. The problem was that he couldn't be sure that the offer he was considering would be any better.
Now he did accept the offer and, sad to say, it did actually turn out to be worse. It was so bad that he eventually expressed regret at having accepted it. But I pointed out to him that in my view he had made the right decision. His first job was so bad that he had no choice but to change. It's just that he couldn't possibly foresee whether the second would be better or worse. In life there are simply too many variables. You can't possibly accurately weigh them all. You make the best decision you can and hope for the best.
And that's what he did. It's just that he was extremely disappointed with the result. I think we need to draw a distinction between disappointment and regret. It can happen that you'll be very disappointed with the consequences of a correct decision. That's simply the way life is.
This is the case with transitioning: you can be quite clear in your mind that you need to do it and still be disappointed with the results. Those who have transitioned can discover that they're actually less happy afterwards than before—often for reasons that are entirely outside their control: people are harassing them, they find a lack of acceptance from their families, friends, colleagues, etc.
This doesn't mean that their decision was wrong: it simply means that, as so often happens in life, they're disappointed with factors that they couldn't possibly assess beforehand.
Rather than regard "regret" as an all-or-nothing matter, we should see it as nuanced, perhaps ask ourselves the question, "As regards gender, how satisfied am I currently with my life in general? On a scale of 1 to 10, how happy am I at present?" There's always going to be some sort of disappointment, but that doesn't mean that on the whole you won't be satisfied with where you are.
As soon as I came out of the closet and began living full time I started facing difficulties that I'd never had to face before. The fact is that transwomen have certain problems that ciswomen don't have. But does that mean that I regret having come out? Not at all. I'm much, much happier now than I was before. Happiness often comes with a price attached. You simply have to decide whether the price is worth it. If it's not, then you might not be finding happiness.
And consider: do cispeople never have any regrets or disappointments? Of course they do. You can regret the career choice you made. You can regret having bought the car you did. You can regret having married the person you did. Whenever people are making any kind of decision, it's inevitable that there's going to be a certain level of disappointment.
For me, these points are extremely important for two reasons: (1) We need to avoid putting undue pressure on ourselves. We need to decide what we mean by "making it". The definition is different for each one of us.
If we could all go back to the moment of our conception and be given a choice, how many of us would choose to be trans female rather than cis female? Probably none of us. Which means that none of us is really going to "make it". None of us is ever going to get where we'd really like to be. That's what being trans implies: unavoidably there's going to be some unhappiness in your life that cispeople don't have to face.
So we need to be realistic. We need to seek happiness on our own terms. Right now, in terms of gender, on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd rate my satisfaction in life at an 8. Now 8 is pretty good, and it's going to be hard to improve upon. It may be that for me this is as good as it gets.
So I need to think carefully about imposing on myself the goal of full transition. I'm an "all-or-nothing person": I recognize that if I can't be cis female, I'm never going to be truly happy in life—and I can't be cis female. So if I go further with my transition, I might be putting myself through a lot of time, trouble, expense and pain and find out at the end of it I'm no happier than I am now.
We shouldn't put pressure on ourselves by setting goals that won't be conducive to our happiness. Fully transitioning isn't necessarily "making it".
(2) Second reason: if we posit a full transition as the goal for each and every one of us, we're playing into the hands of our bitterest (and most ignorant and vindictive) of our enemies. Our enemies have the idea that the goal for every transperson is fully transitioning. Thus when they see that not all of us do that, or that many of us who do have various regrets and disappointments, in their view it invalidates ->-bleeped-<- altogether.
They love stories about "transgender regret" and "detransitioning". "X regretted his transition. Therefore nobody needs to transition." Or "Y detransitioned. Therefore nobody needs to transition."
They're wrong because they don't have a correct view of the situation—and we shouldn't contribute to their incorrect view. We know that not everybody needs to fully transition and that among those who do there will inevitably be some disappointment. This doesn't prove that nobody needs to transition.
Also, we shouldn't be surprised when somebody detransitions. Transitioning is a step-by-step process, and it's often hard to know when you've taken enough steps. That's the position I'm in now: I'm quite pleased with the steps I've taken so far, but would I be better off by taking the next one? I'm not at all sure.
Often in life there's only one way to be sure: you try it and see how it works out. If it doesn't work out, then you know you've gone too far and you need to back off. If certain transpeople find themselves in this position, it should occasion no surprise. The goal is not necessarily to travel the entire road, but only to travel as far as you need to. Finding your spot along that road can be difficult, and at the end of the day there may be nothing for it but to put it to test. Going one step too far doesn't invalidate the steps you've already taken nor the steps that somebody else has taken.
At any rate, those are my views, whatever they're worth, on this question.
i noticed that there is that word that keeps popping up - "Suicide" - i know i have had that thought many a time, luckily the fear of killing myself was stronger than the emotional pain, and it always seems to happen when money problems occur, when i cant find a lover, and frustration of not being a complete women gets to me...
im sure if we are honest with our selves, we have all had those moments of thought...
unfortunately, some of our sisters and brothers have crossed the line of suicide and succeeded, like the 18 year women in our peer support group. i cried for months for her and tried over and over in my mind as to why she did it - she was one of the few that was very passable and very beautiful, she could of owned the world with her looks...
im sure there are other factors involved that cause us to cross the line - with that said, please oh please take it very seriously like im sure we all do...
i wont mention here name, but there was no sign displayed indicating that she was in trouble, and gave every hope that she would be one of the success stories...
to this day i still dont understand why, i just know i miss her...
sorry to be a downer, but this is important, love you all :)
Quote from: Foxglove on October 07, 2014, 07:32:54 AM
It's just that he couldn't possibly foresee whether the second would be better or worse. In life there are simply too many variables. You can't possibly accurately weigh them all. You make the best decision you can and hope for the best.
And that's what he did. It's just that he was extremely disappointed with the result. I think we need to draw a distinction between disappointment and regret. It can happen that you'll be very disappointed with the consequences of a correct decision. That's simply the way life is.
This is the case with transitioning: you can be quite clear in your mind that you need to do it and still be disappointed with the results. Those who have transitioned can discover that they're actually less happy afterwards than before—often for reasons that are entirely outside their control: people are harassing them, they find a lack of acceptance from their families, friends, colleagues, etc.
This doesn't mean that their decision was wrong: it simply means that, as so often happens in life, they're disappointed with factors that they couldn't possibly assess beforehand.
Rather than regard "regret" as an all-or-nothing matter, we should see it as nuanced, perhaps ask ourselves the question, "As regards gender, how satisfied am I currently with my life in general? On a scale of 1 to 10, how happy am I at present?" There's always going to be some sort of disappointment, but that doesn't mean that on the whole you won't be satisfied with where you are.
As soon as I came out of the closet and began living full time I started facing difficulties that I'd never had to face before. The fact is that transwomen have certain problems that ciswomen don't have. But does that mean that I regret having come out? Not at all. I'm much, much happier now than I was before. Happiness often comes with a price attached. You simply have to decide whether the price is worth it. If it's not, then you might not be finding happiness.
And consider: do cispeople never have any regrets or disappointments? Of course they do. You can regret the career choice you made. You can regret having bought the car you did. You can regret having married the person you did. Whenever people are making any kind of decision, it's inevitable that there's going to be a certain level of disappointment.
For me, these points are extremely important for two reasons: (1) We need to avoid putting undue pressure on ourselves. We need to decide what we mean by "making it". The definition is different for each one of us.
If we could all go back to the moment of our conception and be given a choice, how many of us would choose to be trans female rather than cis female? Probably none of us. Which means that none of us is really going to "make it". None of us is ever going to get where we'd really like to be. That's what being trans implies: unavoidably there's going to be some unhappiness in your life that cispeople don't have to face.
So we need to be realistic. We need to seek happiness on our own terms. Right now, in terms of gender, on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd rate my satisfaction in life at an 8. Now 8 is pretty good, and it's going to be hard to improve upon. It may be that for me this is as good as it gets.
So I need to think carefully about imposing on myself the goal of full transition. I'm an "all-or-nothing person": I recognize that if I can't be cis female, I'm never going to be truly happy in life—and I can't be cis female. So if I go further with my transition, I might be putting myself through a lot of time, trouble, expense and pain and find out at the end of it I'm no happier than I am now.
We shouldn't put pressure on ourselves by setting goals that won't be conducive to our happiness. Fully transitioning isn't necessarily "making it".
(2) Second reason: if we posit a full transition as the goal for each and every one of us, we're playing into the hands of our bitterest (and most ignorant and vindictive) of our enemies. Our enemies have the idea that the goal for every transperson is fully transitioning. Thus when they see that not all of us do that, or that many of us who do have various regrets and disappointments, in their view it invalidates ->-bleeped-<- altogether.
They love stories about "transgender regret" and "detransitioning". "X regretted his transition. Therefore nobody needs to transition." Or "Y detransitioned. Therefore nobody needs to transition."
They're wrong because they don't have a correct view of the situation—and we shouldn't contribute to their incorrect view. We know that not everybody needs to fully transition and that among those who do there will inevitably be some disappointment. This doesn't prove that nobody needs to transition.
Also, we shouldn't be surprised when somebody detransitions. Transitioning is a step-by-step process, and it's often hard to know when you've taken enough steps. That's the position I'm in now: I'm quite pleased with the steps I've taken so far, but would I be better off by taking the next one? I'm not at all sure.
Often in life there's only one way to be sure: you try it and see how it works out. If it doesn't work out, then you know you've gone too far and you need to back off. If certain transpeople find themselves in this position, it should occasion no surprise. The goal is not necessarily to travel the entire road, but only to travel as far as you need to. Finding your spot along that road can be difficult, and at the end of the day there may be nothing for it but to put it to test. Going one step too far doesn't invalidate the steps you've already taken nor the steps that somebody else has taken.
An excellent line of reasoning. To transition into something new is necessarily a process. And one filled with false starts, anxiety, and second guessing. I wish I had read Foxglove's post three years ago when I embarked on this journey. I might have been less anxious, and more accepting. I have experienced euphoria, despair, acceptance, rejection, desired life, desired death, wanted desperately to connect, to run away, to be prettier, to be more understanding. Pretty much puberty all over again. Today my life is in turmoil again, and the reality of what I have done is heavy on me. I understand why some die here.
While it is true that my "last job" was pushing me to oblivion, living as a woman in a new body has not resolved all my issues and fears. Most of them haven't really changed either, they just put on a skirt and a cute top. My perspective has changed, as has my gender identity, it is much more fluid than I imagined it would be. As I became more feminine, I became increasingly reconciled to the masculine in me as well. That surprised me, I thought that the dude was dead, turns out he was morphing into something new too.
So has my idea of what it means to be transitioned. I enjoy the writing of the non-binary authors. Their perspective seems to me to be healthy. Change what you must, but it is not necessary to be one thing or another, it is fine to be both and neither. I think this is true. For me that means that my body will become that of a woman, my soul will remain both yin and yang, hopefully in harmony, hopefully complete.
It is the completeness of being that defines success for me. I will probably never be able to completely set aside the "what ifs" but I think I'm leaving the "If only" world behind. I think that is the definition of "making it" is for this trans baby.
Peace,
Julie
Wow,
I think those of us who make it out of all the trans folks out there its low.. many never come out.. and live unhappy lives... its a life sentence if you have this in my opinion. I have not changed since I was small.. and can't believe I finally gave in to transition.
What a thread.. if I had more time would read every word of it.. not that it is making me feel very good.. kinda depressing!
Anyway since basically if you are still alive you are about 50 percent of the ones who made it to this point.. at least thats what I have read about the suicide rate..
I am going full time end of this month after only being on hormones for about 10 months. I have had therapy every two weeks sometimes every week.
So far I have never been happier.. sometimes I just fall apart...totally..
I am however losing the most amazing totally gorgeous on inside and outside perfect wife.. she has movie star looks and is unselfish and amazing.. I consider her perfect.
That's what I am giving up to just be a woman.. I wish to heck I could stop but I can't.
I may never really ever be happy.. I understand that... but I might and only time will tell. I gave up feeling like a freak as a guy to finally having a body I love.
But the loses are huge... so making it.. yep I will make it for sure.... but it just depends on how you define that.
Wish to hell I could stop.. tried twice.. and made it maybe two days... each time....
I will need therapy for a long time to come.. seriously.. it helps.
I love being me now.. I was kick ass as a dude with my business and I plan to be the same as a woman..
It takes a lot of courage to do what we do... a very small percent of trans people even attempt this......
I am so happy for the young kids though who find out early and get a good start when young..
Ugh....I am going to shut up now...I don't really like this thread :)
Carrie
Count me in with the failurezzz..The rate is pretty low if you define success as living like what a cis girl would consider vaguely normal. It does happen though I just can see why it's rare.
im sure that the HRT makes us very emotional and unstable most of the time - i know when i was on my HRT program i would sometimes cry for no reason and then turn around feel as happy as a girl can get...
it is depressing carrie, and yet it is even worse when i was constantly hiding what i am, right now i can almost say im comfortable with who and what i am - but i cant help but feel if i was a complete women, how much better i would feel or is it just another pipe dream and im just fooling myself.
all i know is i have have to try...
Huggs to All...
Over my 20 something year of transitioning I de-transitioned and took a two year hiatus and couldn't stand it and returned after modifying my own expectations. Like I have often said before that once you're on HRT you're headed down a steep hill with no brakes and there's no getting off without having a wreck. At post orchie it was a done deal, no turning back! I made it to a place where I'm now quite content and I think "Making It" can best be defined by each individual that reaches that certain plateau wherein lies their comfort zone.
Some mornings, after I get ready for work and am in my car starting to back, out I see myself in the mirror and I cry. The tears are not tears of sadness but are of joy: I am more me than I have ever been. My mind is not racing wild, it is calm and controlled. I am, almost, at peace. I am almost there but I am more there than I have ever been.
Maybe I'll never totally get there or maybe I'll go a step too far, I don't know. But I do know that I have experienced something truly wonderful and something I never thought I would: I have found me.
Life is far from perfect. I still have problems and I even get depressed. But now, I start each day from a far better place than I have ever known.
To me, this is another definition of success: it does not include gender or surgery or passing or anything else. It is merely being mind and body matched and because we all are different, I suspect it is different for us all.
I just want to help everyone get there. I just want to finish this part of my life's journey correctly.
Hugs,
Jen
A couple comments.
First, I'm not aware of any actual studies on detransitioners, but I've read some comments by some therapists who think the number is around 5% or so.
Second, GRS regret has run below 1% and has been studied ever since WPATH established what some people bemoan as "gatekeeper" requirements. Prior to that, GRS regret was reported to run about 7% from what I've read. (If someone has more complete sourcing and data on these, I would appreciate it.)
Third, suicide attempt rates among transgender people before transition is 41%. The national suicide attempt rate is down around 1.5%. The suicide attempt rate of transgender people after transition is 4.5%. That's a pretty convincing number there, showing the effectiveness of transition overall.
As for myself, 31 months ago I had no idea how I could get to where I am right now, this instant, legally Cara Elizabeth R***** and legally female. I'm out at work, accepted, and even positively supported, I have new friends who have taught me the real meaning of family, and I learned some harsh lessons about how blood is definitely not thicker than water.
Transition is not easy. I suspect the failures come mainly in two categories - those who treated it too simplistically, and those who found too much emotional condemnation externally to bear. There are probably lots of other reasons too but my personal guess is those two reasons are pretty large ones.
I wish my mind would calm; I thought it would when I started HRT but so far it hasn't: the sturm und drang is still sturm und drangy. I can go to relatively calm to raging bitch in an instant and my mind still works at 1,000 KPH. I worry about how I'm going to be able to afford all this crap and so far I don't see any way forward. I just know that I can't do anything by half because a half-life would be worse than what I have now. There are times the peace of death just sounds so appealing. I'm so tired sometimes.
Foxglove hit the nail on the head.
And just to clarify, when I say that like half of my trans friends are still having problems, I want to clarify, they are NOT having regrets. They're just depressed because where they ended up is only a little better than where they came from in the first place.
In terms of transitioning "success," making the social and legal switch, settling in to a stable identity where they're happier with their bodies and have no intents of going back to being male socially, 9 out of 10 of my self-identified MtF friends "made it," with one additional friend realizing that she was more genderfluid rather than fully female, and one eventually "making it" but detransitioning in-between.
So if you look at transition "success" as successfully making the switch from one social gender to the other social gender, "success" is virtually a given. Once you get on hormones and start transitioning, and come out as such, odds are 90% or better that you're going to stay that way. It's only a 50% success rate if you look at the number of people who are still having problems with happiness despite "succeeding." (Who were basically stuck with the option of either being a depressed guy or a depressed girl.)
And again, usually it's not depression related to regret or being unhappy as their identity gender, it's depression related to life circumstances, family rejection, social issues, or still not being "female enough" for themselves and wishing that they could be cis.
Carrie and Foxglove
I ahare your view and perspective but understand that personal experience may lead to a different perspective
Aisla
Well I just broke a damn nail so there u go!! Never worried about that before... usually happens when all my nails get to a nice length then wham.. there goes one..
Oh Well :)
Back to the subject.. after relaxing and reading more.
My therapist kind of puts it this way for me.. and I am different from others or maybe the same..
I managed to cope... she says I have a happy brain.. and was able to find ways to cope well but I was living a total lie.
She says it takes a lot of energy to be someone u are not.. and that my marriage and business success was amazing.. raising two kids and being a great hubby.
When I look back now.. I feel so sorry for me when I see pics of that dude.. the stud I was.. although most men would love to have been me....
Now, being a woman.. thats a hell of a lot harder than being a dude.. dang... the clothes.. the worry about our looks... makeup.. Eyeliner.. I hate putting that on..
Wow would I love to just be a dude.. but I am not... I have no idea why for sure... but I never have been ....
Like being on the other side of a glass panel watching other women live their lives.
Could be so much worse.. could have been born with a worse condition.
So, I am trans.. I will be the best I can be as a chick.. I will thrive.. I am not done in business either.. I will make it but its about attitude.
Therapist says you were a bad ass dude but watch out world when you are yourself...
And I believe her.
Its not easy.. its a real bitch and not easy to change sexes.
I have so much respect for everyone who does this..the LGBT community..
I have no respect for those who out of ignorance hurt the transgender community.. its hard enough without them...
I think the success rate will sky rocket in the decades to come..
Carrie :)
Back when I went through it all (1960s & early 70s) I knew a few dozen TS people and only one who escaped before me. On the other hand, I knew of nearly a dozen TS funerals through those years. I never stuck around so I don't know what became of everybody.
The biggest problem back then was that SRS was EXTREMELY hard to come by and ridiculously expensive before Dr. Biber came on the scene.
Even if it's a small percentage, I plan on being in it. I will fight tooth and nail for what makes me happy, I decided that long ago. I am quite literally willing to die in pursuit of my happiness. ;)
I fear that some think transition will solve all their life's woes. It doesn't. It addresses one problem - gender dysphoria.
If you're introverted, you'll likely still be introverted. If you're socially inept, you'll still have to develop social skills.
Transitioning won't make you into Miss Perfect (or Mr. Perfect, for transguys). It will simply help alleviate one specific problem you had beforehand.
Further, this is exactly why we should continue therapy ever after transition. Sometimes we reach a point where our therapist says we don't need further therapy, but lots of times that's not true, especially after just arriving in a new social space. My therapist says I'm doing great but honestly, I like being able to ask a neutral party pointed questions and have her ask me some to make me think in ways I've not done before.
Well, having read through this entire thread I have actually been able to answer a few questions I've been pondering lately about myself. First of all for me socially transition is for the most part complete. I've been living full time for the past 6 years now and am accepted in my community as the woman I've always been. My gender is never questioned not even by those few who knew me before this sleigh ride began 6 years ago. I've never been called a "->-bleeped-<-" or any other slang word, and I live in a pretty rural area of NorthWest Central Florida full of rednecks and crackers. I've never had any trouble "passing," when I leave my house it is the furthest thing from my mind despite my having only been on hrt for a little over 9 months now. I'm seen by my neighbors and friends as just one of the girls, which is more than I'd ever hoped for.
As for hrt, the changes it has brought about, and continues to bring about both inside and out have been nothing less than miraculous restoring my youth somewhat and enhancing my existing feminine features. And these changes are still ongoing. Hrt has also helped me find my voice not too long ago and I am gendered correctly on the phone which has been a great boost to my self asteem. Is there cosmetic facial and other surgery in my future? Prolly yes. But before deciding on any of these I will wait the outcome of 2 years on hrt in order to allow it more time to work it's magic. However I can prolly guess at the very least I'll need a facelift and Rhinoplasty before I'll truly be happy with my face. But these are minor issues and no matter how great their outcome may be, it won't affect my being seen and accepted as a woman to others for I already am.
In everything mentioned above I consider myself very lucky for I see many who don't have it nearly as easy as I have. In so many ways I have already made a successful transition. But have I?
No, for there is one thing that remains that I'm reminded of every single time I take a bath or shower, or use the bathroom despite the fact that in my case I don't need any special garments or devices underneath my panties to appear as any other normal woman does. But I know what's there even if other people don't, and therein lies the crux that makes me incomplete, still a "partial" woman, I'm not whole, and never will be whole until I have the proper genitals.
So you could say that in my every day life and with regard to social acceptance, and in appearance I've made a successful transition. I live my life day to day pretty much as the average woman does. However, until I am made whole downstairs, I myself cannot say I've successfully transitioned. SRS for me is an absolute necessity. And, until I've had my surgery I will never be able to accept myself as the woman I've always been.
So, having said all of the above, what exactly constitutes a successful transition? From my personal experience, and my experience here being a member of this wonderful community of ours, there are many answers to that question. I believe the closest we can get to an answer is beyond the social and other standards. It is when you, the individual feel most comfortable and happy with yourself both inside and out. Sadly for me that can't happen until I've had my SRS. No, I don't look at this surgery as something that will fix everything. But it will make me whole, and that is what is important to me. The other issues are minor to me in comparison.
I address the suicide question only because I have been there, twice. And both times I felt I was backed into a corner with no way out. No way to be me. Faced with constant misery, despair, and heartache, my fight was gone, all used up, and the thought of going on was so unbearable it was just easier to pull the plug. With the difficulties I've been having lately with finding the right surgeon and getting my surgery scheduled those thoughts have re-emerged out of my past and have had me asking myself, will I make it to what I consider for myself a successful transition, and at this time my only answer is; I dunno. If I can't get it done through insurance the odds against me are insurmountableBut I'll keep going until I can fight no more.
As for percentages who actually "made it?" I think that will depend greatly on the definition of "made it."
Peace everyone
Ally :icon_flower:
Quote from: lightvi on October 07, 2014, 07:21:29 PM
Even if it's a small percentage, I plan on being in it. I will fight tooth and nail for what makes me happy, I decided that long ago. I am quite literally willing to die in pursuit of my happiness. ;)
Wow, that's such a personal question, and can only be answered by each woman. While there's such a perceived advantage for pretty women, and just those who have 'passing privilege', some women have passed wonderfully in others' eyes, from their family and friends to the outside world, but felt so miserable inside they killed themselves because they couldn't live with the fact that they were born with a penis. Then there are others who don't pass in other people's eyes and are looked at as an embarrassment by their own family and it no longer concerns them. I feel blessed and lucky to always pass, but it's been work to get where I am. To have a voice that passes is another bit of good fortune, but before I transitioned I really had little to no idea how much time and money it takes to be the kind of woman I am now, but only faintly envisioned before transition. I'd definitely say I've been successful in my transition, at least socially and in my own eyes, but like Ally, my body and mind won't be complete till GRS. I sound confused but I'm not.
I have hepatitis C from my heroin addiction, but so far my liver's pretty good and I'm hopefully going on the new drug to cure it soon, but I've already decided I'll never de-transition, and they're going to have to bury me in one of my dresses, even if it kills me. On the other side is certain death by my own hand, one way or another. It would probably be with a gun, if not that, drugs and alcohol, because I'd proven for forty years straight that I was nothing more than a male impersonator and I'm really quite happy, despite being in a great deal of pain virtually every waking moment. I'm positive I'll be even happier after GRS, a BA, and getting my hip, back and knee repaired. I can't imagine all the pain I'm going to have to go through to get there, though. I'm going in a little while to apply for my passport, which is the next thing I have to get to get to my ultimate goal of GRS.