Is it or will it ever be possible for people (in general) to treat the nonbinary (of any kind) like a PERSON instead of a male or a female?
I keep reading about these "male and female privileges" from various posts in here and find them both quite disturbing. This is the main reason I don't talk to people. Also I am mainly referring to non LGBT people because obviously they would already have some understanding being open minded and all regarding this but my problem lies in the fact that I precisely don't want to talk to them because they are from LGBT since I feel like I am "outing" myself here.
So it's like a no win situation either way; cis or trans= discomfort for me...
Even when I go to my gender clinic I feel like I am outing myself. I am always uncomfortable and I just want to get the appointment over with so I can leave. I am always scared that someone I know will see me in there.. I hate myself for having this birth defect.
Birth anomaly my dear.
Not defect. Special. Don't let anyone say otherwise or if they do, know it is not truth.
And you are surely a special person in my book.
Foolish, this fighting. It should not be.
Outlast it.
Blessings
Satinjoy
^-^ Awww, it's not your fault. I'm sorry things are so difficult for you right now. :embarrassed:
I don't know if things will ever change in society enough to be acceptable to us.? Maybe in time, I really hope so.
But for now, we all just have to muddle through our days, doing the best we can. And thats all that anyone expects from you, or you should expect from yourself. Everyone fails, falls and is treated unfairly at times, what makes a person successful is the getting up part.
I'm not sure how to answer the other questions you asked, or way you feel, I'm sure others will have more insight..
Take special care.
Mark
Quote from: makipu on October 06, 2014, 04:37:05 PM
Is it or will it ever be possible for people (in general) to treat the nonbinary (of any kind) like a PERSON instead of a male or a female?
In my opinion, no. Gendering people is wired into human brains. We figure out people's gender and then treat them according to the way we expect people of that gender should be treated. It is subconscious and nearly impossible to eradicate.
The good news is that the closer a friend is - the more they really get what you're about - the less gendered their treatment of you will be and the more connected it will be to who you really are.
I don't know if this helps, but it's all I got. Sorry.
Honestly, I get more luck being treated like who I am from people who are not within the LGBT community.
Quote from: suzifrommd on October 06, 2014, 07:03:16 PM
In my opinion, no. Gendering people is wired into human brains. We figure out people's gender and then treat them according to the way we expect people of that gender should be treated. It is subconscious and nearly impossible to eradicate.
The good news is that the closer a friend is - the more they really get what you're about - the less gendered their treatment of you will be and the more connected it will be to who you really are.
I don't know if this helps, but it's all I got. Sorry.
Incorrect.
Sex may be wired into human brains but
gender is the way we believe we should act or treat people by virtue of their sex.
Quote from: makipu on October 06, 2014, 04:37:05 PM
Is it or will it ever be possible for people (in general) to treat the nonbinary (of any kind) like a PERSON instead of a male or a female?
I keep reading about these "male and female privileges" from various posts in here and find them both quite disturbing. This is the main reason I don't talk to people. Also I am mainly referring to non LGBT people because obviously they would already have some understanding being open minded and all regarding this but my problem lies in the fact that I precisely don't want to talk to them because they are from LGBT since I feel like I am "outing" myself here.
So it's like a no win situation either way; cis or trans= discomfort for me...
Even when I go to my gender clinic I feel like I am outing myself. I am always uncomfortable and I just want to get the appointment over with so I can leave. I am always scared that someone I know will see me in there.. I hate myself for having this birth defect.
One hopes that the binaries would be more sensitive to the non-binaries but lets have some patience dear... the whole non0binary phenomena is new, even in the LGBT community...
Treat the disturbing threads like a radio, change the station if that music is not of your like...
Quote from: peky on October 06, 2014, 07:32:28 PM
Treat the disturbing threads like a radio, change the station if that music is not of your like...
Well said, wish more would. There is no one in these forums that are better then anyone else. A community of equals so remember that when we make posts.
If it makes you feel any better, the whole idea of gender "privilege" is alien to me. I see other people talking about it like it's this thing that permeates all of society, but I've never personally experienced it, and I'm binary. There are a LOT of people out there who will treat you as a person and not a gender, but of course, there will always be those who only see superficial characteristics and make assumptions based on them. Don't let them bring you down, okay?
Quote from: Pikachu on October 06, 2014, 07:46:39 PM
If it makes you feel any better, the whole idea of gender "privilege" is alien to me. I see other people talking about it like it's this thing that permeates all of society, but I've never personally experienced it, and I'm binary. There are a LOT of people out there who will treat you as a person and not a gender, but of course, there will always be those who only see superficial characteristics and make assumptions based on them. Don't let them bring you down, okay?
Most of these "privileges" are overstated and do not even apply to everyone of that gender, just certain members of it. Alpha male types and really good looking women are the ones that have most of these in this society...
I wasted a good portion of my life trying to figure out how to become some alpha male type, when I'd really rather have the privileges of a really good looking woman...
Ok this is just my opinion but the only privilege that I see from people is if they have one helluva trust fund or they are a celebrity or their last name is Hilton or Kardashian.
Other than that I can't get into an exclusive club unless I play a gig there. I think this whole privilege thing is something that seems real but is nothing more than an illusion.
Privilege refers to something being seen as the default state by society. So cis privilege exists because cis gender identities are viewed by society as the default, gender identities that are different than that are other. Having a particular privilege doesn't automatically mean that you are well off, it just means that a particular aspect of your life is viewed by society as being default rather than other. Lines of privilege and oppression intersect differently for everyone and certain lines of oppression can have a profound effect on how others are experienced. For example, a WoC experiences sexism very differently to a white woman because of the intersection of racism and misogyny.
When talking about binary privilege all it means is that for both cis and trans gender identities, binary identities are viewed as the default (I am viewing gender non-conforming cis gender individuals as non-binary for this). Obviously if you are trans that is a major line if oppression and having binary privilege does not negate that, it just means that in an environment where trans identities are viewed as being valid, having a binary identity means you have more chance that people will accept it as valid.
What it is not is some kind of magical token that allows binary identified trans people to exist without trouble in the cis world.
i have experienced havong and not having male anf female privilege, as well as binary privilege. it often takes me by surprise, as i don't realize that one groups has privilege in certain settings until i experience it in ways that seem extremely bizarre and meaningless to me.
there are some defaults in society which i don't always notice until they're practically thrown at me, because i don't treat people diffenrently based on anything other than personality traits that i have personally observed in that person. so it always surprises me when someone defaults based on someone's gender, appearance, skin color, clothing, accent, family background or other things that would not matter in an ideal world.
privilege definitely exists. but it is not something that makes people good or bad, and many who realize their privilege will even use it to help less lucky members of their society.
I wouldn't call variant gender identity a birth defect. It is natural human variation, and in some cultures it is even celebrated. None of this is new, some people have been like this thousands of years.
The problem comes when you have a variant gender identity in a society or culture that doesn't even recognize it as being real.
Will most cis- people "get it", no, but the good ones will still treat you well.
I am slowly coming out to my friends, and making some new ones in my local LGBT group. Each person I talk to makes me feel a bit more at ease, and less worried about the ones that I don't feel I can talk to about it. The cat is likely to be out of the bag eventually for me, but once that happens I plan to already have a wide support network in place.
- Jaded Jade
a post was not posted and i realized too late i posted my last post totally off topic... because i thought i'd already said wjat wasn't posted. sorry about that.
moving on topic again, being treated as a person is something that happens. not always where i'd expect it though. the easiest ones to deal with as well as the hardest ones, have been students. it seems there is a difference between those who study a subject they're interested inand those who study because everybody else does, and just follow the main stream. the first group has a whole lot of interesting persons who are so weird themselves (in a good way) that they usually don't have any problems accepting one more weird.
among trans people i get both acceptance and (binary) gender policing. trans people probably aren't any better or worse than the cis, but it's just a little bit more hurtful and frustrating when it comes from someone who should know a little bit of what it's like to not be accepted for who you are. seems some cis people also have this kind of experience in other areas though, and have no big problems relating and accepting/understanding.
Quote from: makipu on October 06, 2014, 04:37:05 PM
Is it or will it ever be possible for people (in general) to treat the nonbinary (of any kind) like a PERSON instead of a male or a female?
I keep reading about these "male and female privileges" from various posts in here and find them both quite disturbing. This is the main reason I don't talk to people. Also I am mainly referring to non LGBT people because obviously they would already have some understanding being open minded and all regarding this but my problem lies in the fact that I precisely don't want to talk to them because they are from LGBT since I feel like I am "outing" myself here.
So it's like a no win situation either way; cis or trans= discomfort for me...
Even when I go to my gender clinic I feel like I am outing myself. I am always uncomfortable and I just want to get the appointment over with so I can leave. I am always scared that someone I know will see me in there.. I hate myself for having this birth defect.
im not exactly sure on which thing you refern to. I think what may make you unconfortable of male & female privilige is for you as a non-binary that it wont aplye, but that itself is a lack of privilige, the cisprivilige which I find better decribing than male and female privilige since female in general term are not really priviliged for there female gender, but more for there cis-genderness, or (if trans) the ability to pass and be like a cisgender.
-
I think it very difficult to be viewed as just a person. There sure are friends and situations where you can be so, but in many cultures since childbirth we are grown up raised to learn the diffrence in male and female, and it terryfying how much it can disturb people falling out of the boxes.
as mention good friends who see you for you, or certain place or comunities where you can get to be yourself exist but sadly in the general world theres alot of ignorance and very binary mindset.
If people would treat everyone as people instead of a gender/sex/whatever then it wouldn't be an issue.
Except... I tried to explain the non-binary concept to a work colleague yesterday and she laughed in disbelief - I would consider her open minded and she has been very supportive of me. Her reaction seems symptomatic of how the vast majority sees the gender issues we're currently exploring.
I'm kind of yes and I don't know on this one. I surrendered male privilege when I began presenting full time as female. Now about four months on I am treated pretty much like any woman at work. When I leave the campus, that acceptance (read female privilege) is left mostly behind.
I'm confusing to many people, sometimes I look feminine, sometimes masculine, sometimes queer. To those who love me it's not much of an issue, but it blows the heuristics of expectation from most of the people I interact with into an alternate reality. Fortunately I'm old enough that I get more age related privilege than gender related privilege.
All this said. I really cannot complain, outside of the few who intensely reject me for transitioning, I am treated and accepted with grace and courtesy. I totally get that the non-binary people become weary explaining themselves to the binary folks here, but I haven't experienced that dichotomy as much in the real world. Perhaps it is related to not worrying much about the pronouns people use to describe me. I get called sir/ma'am/miss/hey you almost interchangeably
We/They/He/She/Us wish you fair winds.
Julie
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 06, 2014, 11:29:46 PM
Most of these "privileges" are overstated and do not even apply to everyone of that gender, just certain members of it. Alpha male types and really good looking women are the ones that have most of these in this society...
I wasted a good portion of my life trying to figure out how to become some alpha male type, when I'd really rather have the privileges of a really good looking woman...
The real privileges are tied to money, money, and money ... the rest just walk!
Quote from: peky on October 07, 2014, 06:53:26 PM
The real privileges are tied to money, money, and money ... the rest just walk!
Yep. I'm dirt poor. I don't have any privileges.
not at all. i have a ton of privilege even without being born into a wealthy family. at least i'm free to make my own choices, there are maby young people who feel forced to deny themselves and stay on a painful path just to take over some family company. others may envy them the wealth, but they'd rather be free to do what they want instead of always having to care about how their actions would affect their family business.
of course the rich people can use the power of money to erase their kids' bad history, but what if the kid wanted to tarnish the family name, hoping to be set free or at least get some revenge on parents who care more about appearances than their own children's happiness...
if money really came with that much privilege, rich people wouldn't commit suicide.
and underestimating other types of privilege is just weird the way i see it. doesn't matter much how rich a trans woman is if she doesn't pass, and happens to go into the wrong place.
Quote from: peky on October 07, 2014, 06:53:26 PM
The real privileges are tied to money, money, and money ... the rest just walk!
See previous comment, we're are discussing a very particular meaning of privilege as I had previously detailed.
Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 07, 2014, 06:55:11 AM
Privilege refers to something being seen as the default state by society. So cis privilege exists because cis gender identities are viewed by society as the default, gender identities that are different than that are other. Having a particular privilege doesn't automatically mean that you are well off, it just means that a particular aspect of your life is viewed by society as being default rather than other. Lines of privilege and oppression intersect differently for everyone and certain lines of oppression can have a profound effect on how others are experienced. For example, a WoC experiences sexism very differently to a white woman because of the intersection of racism and misogyny.
When talking about binary privilege all it means is that for both cis and trans gender identities, binary identities are viewed as the default (I am viewing gender non-conforming cis gender individuals as non-binary for this). Obviously if you are trans that is a major line if oppression and having binary privilege does not negate that, it just means that in an environment where trans identities are viewed as being valid, having a binary identity means you have more chance that people will accept it as valid.
What it is not is some kind of magical token that allows binary identified trans people to exist without trouble in the cis world.
Quote from: Pikachu on October 07, 2014, 07:33:35 PM
Yep. I'm dirt poor. I don't have any privileges.
Same here^^___^^. I'm on a low fixed income that barely keeps a roof over my head.
Ally ;)
All I'll say is that life looks very different when you're so poor that you can't afford HRT, something almost every trans person takes for granted, so poor that if you saved every single penny you made for the rest of your life, you still couldn't afford GRS, so poor that you don't own a car, have insurance, have a legal residence, can't afford to buy ANYTHING new... I have to hunt for bargains at thrift stores when I actually buy things. Most of what I have are things others threw away. The computer I'm typing this on I built out of old, discarded parts and the internet connection is a free dial-up service. When you're this poor, you don't have a lot of sympathy for the plight of the rich. And, certainly, if I were rich, I could get as many surgeries as I wanted to pass, not that I personally care much about passing.
EDIT: And if I were rich, I'd pay for everyone's else's GRS, too, and make a ginormous donation to this site. :)
i did have money a while ago. spent it on dirt poor friends, so i didn't ever have more than i needed to get by. now i have a tiny bit more, but most of it will be spent on my daughter's needs.
i did grow up in possibly the poorest family who had kids in my school. i still talk about being privileged, because i know i have possibilities that so many others don't have. it's not only about money.
i also find it extremely difficult to get access to hrt. but not because i can't afford it. i can cut down on the chocolote, stop my subscription to this site and a few other that mean a lot to me, not travel to visit family etc. but i'd still have troubles getting access to what most binary trans people take for granted.
and this is simply because i'm non-binary, or not trans enough, the way health authorities in my country see it.
binaries have privilege. they can at least buy treatment with money. in norway, a doctor might risk losing their licence if health authorities find out they've given me cross sex hormones. in denmark, they're trying to make laws that forbid doctors outside the gid clinic from treating trans people. our gid clinics only treat binary trans people.
talking about money as the only privilege ever is extremely offending to me and many of my friends who have been completely rejected on the basis of bot being trans enough. we feel the discrimination, and we envy the privileged (though not to the extent to wanting to rob them of the privilege, i'd never even think of wishing someine else did not get treatment just because i can't easily get it).
I'm not saying money is the only privilege ever. I'm saying that when money prevents me from having the privileges I would otherwise have as a binary individual, that binary privilege then becomes meaningless.
It's why I feel offended whenever people start telling me I'm oh-so-privileged. That being said, I definitely get where you're coming from.
Quote from: Taka on October 08, 2014, 02:14:34 PM
i did have money a while ago. spent it on dirt poor friends, so i didn't ever have more than i needed to get by. now i have a tiny bit more, but most of it will be spent on my daughter's needs.
i did grow up in possibly the poorest family who had kids in my school. i still talk about being privileged, because i know i have possibilities that so many others don't have. it's not only about money.
i also find it extremely difficult to get access to hrt. but not because i can't afford it. i can cut down on the chocolote, stop my subscription to this site and a few other that mean a lot to me, not travel to visit family etc. but i'd still have troubles getting access to what most binary trans people take for granted.
and this is simply because i'm non-binary, or not trans enough, the way health authorities in my country see it.
binaries have privilege. they can at least buy treatment with money. in norway, a doctor might risk losing their licence if health authorities find out they've given me cross sex hormones. in denmark, they're trying to make laws that forbid doctors outside the gid clinic from treating trans people. our gid clinics only treat binary trans people.
talking about money as the only privilege ever is extremely offending to me and many of my friends who have been completely rejected on the basis of bot being trans enough. we feel the discrimination, and we envy the privileged (though not to the extent to wanting to rob them of the privilege, i'd never even think of wishing someine else did not get treatment just because i can't easily get it).
Pinkachu,
If you're interested, send me a PM, I'm willing to help with seeking resources for you.
Taka,
I never in a million years thought I would be saying this to someone from Scandinavia, but if you ever wish to migrate to the US. I and my partner will help.
Peace
Julie
After thinking it over a bit, I would like to apologise for my first post in this thread. I do recognize that non-binary people are more discriminated against in terms of seeking medical aid in transitioning. I was only speaking of the social acceptance in that post, trying to assure makipu that there are many people who will treat people as people and not a gender.
Pikachu
Thank you for your gracious acknowledgement of non binary challenges - the general lack of understanding of NB and our lack of privilege. This means a lot to me.
Safe travels
Aisla
it's ok pikachu, i've seen how terrible it can be to be poor. even in a country like norway, the poorest don't get the help thwy need, and which is supposed to he their right. only those who have resources, particularly intellectual and mental strength, and those from the right family get the monetary support when they need it.
having one privilege while lacking another can make things still end up below zero in total amount of privilege/discrimination.
i'm very happy to know that you acknowledge our experience of discrimination, while still experiencing discrimination in other areas. i've always wondered about this thing where you need permanent residence to get a job when you can't get permanent residence without a job. seems like an easy way to keep the poorest members of society outside the better circles forever.
i always feel privileged when i hear the stories of people who are even worse off than me. i at least know i'll have food on my table for months and likely years to come. doesn't help me transition today, but i'm at least likely to be alive when i get that chance.
thank you for the offer julie. i have a community here which i care for, and my daughter seema to have rooted well. so i'm unlikely to move much farther away than across the border into sweden, where i can do an equally good job for my community if i feel like it and there's any job open. and i really want to fight this fight here, can't just escape and leave weaker non-binaries lose this fight alone.
Thank you, Taka and Aisla. I didn't mean to diminish the discrimination anyone has experienced, but I recognize that it may have come across that way. *hugs*
Quote from: Taka on October 08, 2014, 03:09:01 PM
i really want to fight this fight here, can't just escape and leave weaker non-binaries lose this fight alone.
You have my respect and admiration.
j
Thank you for clarifying some things. I didn't think the Non-binary section would get this many replies. I basically meant it like how male and female are treated differently for the simplest things one can imagine.
By the way Taka, I feel for you in terms of not having access to HRT. That's just ridiculous. I am sorry if this sounds stupid but would you be willing to put on a binary act so you can get what you need?
i'm first going to try a few of those doctors who operate outside the system. i know they exist, but they can be really hard to find. the best would be to have someone near me, so i'm gonna ask a gp or two if they'd be williing to try something new.
if that's impossible, then the binary act will be all that's left to try, but i don't think that would help for more than 2-3 years.
Privilege and oppression are funny things, receiving a form of systemic privilege doesn't cancel out a form of systemic oppression, it just means that you experience that oppression differently. I quite obviously have white privilege, so no matter how poor I am, or female, or queer or trans or non binary, I will never experience those things the same way a woman of colour would. Which doesn't mean that the challenges I face are not challenging, it just means I will never ever face them with the additional hardship of having to deal with systemic racism.
Being able to acknowledge privileges you have is a powerful thing, not because you should feel guilty about belonging to a privileged group, but because if you can acknowledge privilege you can actually start to push back against the ---ked up system that creates these power dynamics and help create change. It's hard, because privilege is by it's very nature invisible, when something is viewed as a default state you only really become aware of it if it isn't there, and it takes a lot of self reflection to actually be able to see it, and then even more to deal with it in a human way. I'm definitely not new to this game and I'm still learning.
Political "correctness" has gone to ridiculous levels. Now a teacher is told not to call their students "boys and girls", why not? Most (and I repeat "most" are boys or girls) I'm proud to be a girl.
I want to be seen for who I am, not as some "specialty" group. I don't want special rights, I don't need them. I want to be seen and Accepted as Me.
I don't want special rights either, I just want the same and equal rights as everyone else and a place in society where men, women and everyone in-between or neither can happily coexist together.
And a Non-specified/Other box under Male & Female on forms, if that's not too hard to ask for...
Some forms do, when I bought this phone the choices on registering were male/female/other and I used other. That's right, I othered myself!
Political correctness gone mad is the rallying cry of the privileged, upset at having it pointed out that their world view isn't universal. Many children may be happy to be called girls and boys, but some aren't and there are plenty of ways of talking to a class that don't require gendering them. It's not political correctness it's called common human decency.
I'll admit, its harder to be an Other.
I'm lucky, I fit into the binary of female, woman (the better sex)
Ok, ok, just joking.
I'm not going to get into a fight about it, we all have our opinions and they are equally valid.
I'm certainly not "privileged". I'm working class and have been going through this for 60+ years. I never fit into "societies" view of normal, no transgendered person can.
But as I stated before, I'm lucky, I (personally) fit into the binary world and want to be referred to as my gender, Female.
I realize not everyone is happy with that and I fully realize that Non-binary people have a harder time being accepted.
Quote from: EchelonHunt on October 09, 2014, 12:25:06 PM
I don't want special rights either, I just want the same and equal rights as everyone else and a place in society where men, women and everyone in-between or neither can happily coexist together.
And a Non-specified/Other box under Male & Female on forms, if that's not too hard to ask for...
I agree completely. Well said.
I agree that much of this is about luck. None of us chose our parents or place of birth. Nobody asked us if our assigned birth sex fit. We didn't get a choice about our race or ethnicity. We do get some choices about educating ourselves and how we behave toward ourselves and others. Privilege and opppresion existed long (hello kings & queens) before we were born and is systematic and institutionalized. It is one major reason people usually have have a choice between male and female facilities. I have personally experienced consideable white male priviledge prior to transitioning. People treated me different than they did women or people of color. I didn't invent this privilege and work to socialize myself and our community in seeing the impacts. It would be a wonderful world if/when each of us is treated as a unique and complex individual but we take the short cuts. Those short cuts include seeing people in a binary perspective. It simply is easier for many of us to see the world that way. Using labels rather than getting to know you.
This is part of the real value of Susan's Place. We write any number of posts and threads detailing just how we feel and see the world. We get to share intimate experiences that others can learn from. I have made many friends and actually have several real life friends i met right here. We can get very sensitive about our issues and concerns but in the end we are one person reaching out. I am hugely grateful that people here took my hand and hold it still. Love makes a family and families make community. Let us continue to make the most of ours.
Quote from: Tessa James on October 09, 2014, 01:59:07 PM
I agree that much of this is about luck. None of us chose our parents or place of birth. Nobody asked us if our assigned birth sex fit. We didn't get a choice about our race or ethnicity. We do get some choices about educating ourselves and how we behave toward ourselves and others. Privilege and opppresion existed long (hello kings & queens) before we were born and is systematic and institutionalized. It is one major reason people usually have have a choice between male and female facilities. I have personally experienced consideable white male priviledge prior to. transitioning. People treated me different than they did women or people of color. I didn't invent this privilege and work to socialize myself and our community in seeing the impacts. It would be a wonderful world if/when each of us is treated as a unique and complex individual but we take the short cuts. Those short cuts include seeing people in a binary perspective. It simply is easier for many of us to see the world that way. Using labels rather than getting to know you.
This is part of the real value of Susan's Place. We write any number of posts and threads detailing just how we feel and see the world. We get to share intimate experiences that others can learn from. I have made many friends and actually have several real life friends i met right here. We can get very sensitive about our issues and concerns but in the end we are one person reaching out. I am hugely grateful that people here took my hand and hold it still. Love makes a family and families make community. Let us continue to make the most of ours.
Nuff Said
8) :-* 8) --- Julie