There is a tendency in the trans culture to say that "we are trans, take us or leave us, if you really love us we can live as we please and you will stay."
I don't buy it. I have had several years of therapy designed to preserve my family and marrage life while transitioning and it has been successful. It isn't easy either.
I am curious about how many of us change presentations while having a core that is more than the presentation that we show to others. I have tailored presentations for situations, one for me in private, one for the workplace (nails and the boobs are not hidden as well as they could be now, I am tired of hiding them), one for the wife, one for one kid, and a full presentation I can do with the two fully accepting kids in the family, they are the only ones that have seen Satinjoy in full transition mode.
And of course, I keep the blasted goatee. That is my gift to my wife, and my gift to myself as a diversionary tactic in the macho construction environment I need in order to eat. It distracts them from getting as cruel as their capabilities are, and confuses the heck out of them.
These presentations are socially real for me, as in authentic since I am non binary at core, and in the core itself, I see it as convenience to be able to continue to just experience feeling without repression without outing myself.
I should not care about outing, but i do. I am at that place where I would just do it and stop any concealment, but not change presentations, it would still in the business world be long nails, boobs and sooner or later hair, and full mtf facial non surgical hormonal changes. Not to mention the rest of the body. But male clothing, generally, not pushing it much. Coming out in that environment would probably be really tough, it might be successful, I am half out anyway. But there are consequences.
That stinks. The idea that we are not accepted by anyone stinks, this negative esteeming is really unfair and wrong. But it simply is a problem, it used to be a huge problem. The abuse of our minds by being transgendered and considered to be crazy, harmful, evil, it is so pathetic. The need of the loved ones to hide Satinjoy. What bullsh-t, yet, it is my reality, I can only poke at it by saying "Can you see how wrong that is....?" And they agree, at least my loved ones accept, but the full force of the extended family and social abuse on the spouse would be such hell unleashed that i would just lose it.
But do you alter your presentation in order to make those around you comfortable or feeling safe? My wife feels safe with this facial hair thing, she feels it would stop a full time transition. Since it is medically advised for me not to go full time, I can live with it.
I need her comfortable so that I can be as free as I can to feel.
The other side issue is, sometimes Satinjoy will get really, really strong at work. I think I will be read and I start to panic, since I come from a place of severe abuse in childhood in similar circumstances. Almost involuntarily out. So I breathe, and wonder if they will notice.
I am told they don't, that it was all in my head, but when it happens and the anxiety attack that accompanies it goes with it, I run to the coworker that knows of the duality, that knows I am a transsexual, and just let it all out. It really helps to have that.
So, back to the question. Do you alter presentation, do you think there is anything right or wrong about that, do you think it impacts your authenticity? Where are you on this rather intense issue? One that can determine if you will be able to maintain some relationships where they just can't quite handle the full components, one where they cannot see the old you pass away, where they need to see the husband they married, the father they know, the mother they know, the wife they love?
This thread dedicated to our loved ones, our families.
Blessings and love to all who see this
--Satinjoy
SJ, I admire your selflessness.
For me, I strongly believe that I'm only given one life. I'm not willing to live it as someone I'm not, not for anyone, no matter how much I love them or they love me. Though if I really loved someone, I would never ask them to be someone they were not, even if it means there are ways they wouldn't be there for me.
I didn't compromise... It cost me a stable relationship with the bios, but I have awesome friends who've supported me in the past five years. Heck I've started building bridges with some of the bios, though I think I've permanently trashed them with two siblings.
I am an all or nothing kind of grrrl, go hard or go home. I'm lucky that I've been able to do that
Quote from: Satinjoy on October 14, 2014, 06:45:22 AM
There is a tendency in the trans culture to say that "we are trans, take us or leave us, if you really love us we can live as we please and you will stay."
I don't buy it. I have had several years of therapy designed to preserve my family and marrage life while transitioning and it has been successful. It isn't easy either.
I am curious about how many of us change presentations while having a core that is more than the presentation that we show to others. I have tailored presentations for situations, one for me in private, one for the workplace (nails and the boobs are not hidden as well as they could be now, I am tired of hiding them), one for the wife, one for one kid, and a full presentation I can do with the two fully accepting kids in the family, they are the only ones that have seen Satinjoy in full transition mode.
I think I am going to reply on one or two paragraphs at a time, per day, its easier to be detailed about each thought, plus to be honest I've really missed your topics like this SatinJoy, and want to take it apart somewhat and reply on one or two things at a time.
I haven't been very thorough in many previous replies to important topics, and I'm working on that now.
So yeah, I've also heard that phrase before, "we are trans, take us or leave us, if you really love us we can live as we please and you will stay." I've even thought it/written it. Now I must rethink this whole idea.?
I mostly am aware of this "take it or leave it" concept from reading topics in the forums from members posting that their SOs say they're leaving and divorcing if said member follows through with full transition. Quite a few replies seem to be to follow through with your schedule, and that if your spouse or SO says they will divorce and leave, then they don't love you anyway, because they want you to live a dishonest life with them, not being able to be yourself, and that you always have to come first, regardless of how its going to affect others, and damage or destroy family relationships or marriages. Many also, to be fair, give much more tempered advice, and are quite insightful. But still, that mentality by some is still there.
Basically, family relationships and especially marriages are about giving of yourself, in every way it seems like sometimes. We all can't just do whatever we feel will make us happy 100% of the time, call it being authentic, and discount how those things will affect those around us, or in the end, we will have few if anyone there.
So for me, I've been happily married almost 30 years, and its more important to me by far to preserve my marriage, than to fulfill my own personal identity, or me being the true authentic me in the midst of the rest of the worlds preconceptions and narrow gender descriptions. I guess I feel self confident enough now to know who and what I am at core level that I can tone down myself if need be, to make others comfortable, without feeling that I'm selling myself out in any way.?
I'm lucky that my wife let's little I say or do bother her.
We have no children.
My family is almost all dead now, so realistically I only have my wife to worry about, and a few friends.
But even with minimal pressure in my personal life to present myself in any certain ways, I'm still very conservative in dress and behavior, something my introverted personality won't let me break away from. I do love some special jewelry though, a baby blue charm bracelet given to me free by Swiss jewelry designer Zineta Blank, a couple of tribute bracelets to the Boston bombing that I added a silver transgender triangle hanging off each one, and a silver signature ring etched/signed inside the band by Andreja Pejic. I dream of a few more things like that, but I don't wish to present much different physically than I am now. Does that make me less trans than someone whos identity is the opposite binaries clothes and hair.? Some might think that, but being other than myself now would not be authentic to me.
So those things makes it much more simple to be authentic in most situations, and don't threaten my marriage or friendships. I guess that's the short answer.
More to follow.
I think altering presentation modes for time and place is sensitive and smart initially. Employing an incremental emergence into the light of their lives makes it easier for all and allows one to retain relationships that would otherwise be destroyed. Lets face it, we human beings are all self destructive by nature and sometimes when we kill off our old persona to become who we really are, that old person dies away and there is often an awful lot of heartbreaking collateral damage. So kudo's to those who can put themselves on the slow track for the sake of others! That's not to stick my fingers in the eyes of the rest of us who couldn't stand another dysphoric moment and came out fast like a flower blooming rapidly in a time lapse photo, some people know up front that they won't be well received and that life for the next so many months are going to be hell on earth, my hat's off to them because they have guts and are driven and do what needs to be done in spite of everything. In either case there needn't be any critical condemnation, because each of us knows what we are up against and what the possibilities are for some and what the impossibilities are for others.
Quote from: Shantel on October 14, 2014, 04:29:15 PM
I think altering presentation modes for time and place is sensitive and smart initially. Employing an incremental emergence into the light of their lives makes it easier for all and allows one to retain relationships that would otherwise be destroyed. Lets face it, we human beings are all self destructive by nature and sometimes when we kill off our old persona to become who we really are, that old person dies away and there is often an awful lot of heartbreaking collateral damage. So kudo's to those who can put themselves on the slow track for the sake of others! That's not to stick my fingers in the eyes of the rest of us who couldn't stand another dysphoric moment and came out fast like a flower blooming rapidly in a time lapse photo, some people know up front that they won't be well received and that life for the next so many months are going to be hell on earth, my hat's off to them because they have guts and are driven and do what needs to be done in spite of everything. In either case there needn't be any critical condemnation, because each of us knows what we are up against and what the possibilities are for some and what the impossibilities are for others.
Well, it can be a double edged sword, though. I remember when I started my transition, coming out and all that. A lot of people in my family mistook my easing in as a way to dissuade me from going further. This was especially so with my mother. She didn't want me to start HRT, didn't want me to start electro, didn't want me to change my name. On and on and on.
Eventually, I had to put my foot down and get tough about this. Then I got the cop out of "you aren't respecting what we want", "you want to cut ties from us by doing this". I reached a point where I WAS very close to saying "the hell with all of you" and cutting ties since they were throwing up accusations that weren't anywhere near the truth. They were basically driving me away and they were too stupid at the time to realize it.
Quote from: Laura Squirrel on October 14, 2014, 04:35:41 PM
Well, it can be a double edged sword, though. I remember when I started my transition, coming out and all that. A lot of people in my family mistook my easing in as a way to dissuade me from going further. This was especially so with my mother. She didn't want me to start HRT, didn't want me to start electro, didn't want me to change my name. On and on and on.
Eventually, I had to put my foot down and get tough about this. Then I got the cop out of "you aren't respecting what we want", "you want to cut ties from us by doing this". I reached a point where I WAS very close to saying "the hell with all of you" and cutting ties since they were throwing up accusations that weren't anywhere near the truth. They were basically driving me away and they were too stupid at the time to realize it.
It happens all the time Laura, invariably we come to the place where we have to exercise some discernment as to where it's going and determine if and when the push back is going to cease. I had to shut my mother and sister out of my life for ten years it became so toxic, eventually they turned the corner accepted what they knew they had no control over anyway. My spouse and my kids have all been favorably responsive as I eased them into my trans status. I'm now at the place where I am fully myself 24/7, that's why I am an advocate for an incremental transition, though I fully understand how impossible it is for many.
Please don't yell at me as this is only my opinion, OK?
At first I tried so hard to be gentle to everyone's feelings. I tip toed and walked on eggshells as not to offend either. The more things became noticeable though even with effort to conceal them, people still became offended and weirded out. I tried so hard to be gentle all the while telling them one day I would reach the point it was obvious and no effort would conceal it. They decided that was still not acceptable so I went full time immediately. I tried, but some people no matter how much you cater to them will never be happy about what you are doing in your life. Now, I hide it from no one, make no concessions and have been living as the woman I am 10 months solid now. You can try and try and someone will always be a hard head even when they see the huge effort being made. Please don't flood the report post bin. This is just my humble opinion, mine, not as a moderator, but a poster. :-\
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on October 14, 2014, 05:24:27 PM
Please don't yell at me as this is only my opinion, OK?
At first I tried so hard to be gentle to everyone's feelings. I tip toed and walked on eggshells as not to offend either. The more things became noticeable though even with effort to conceal them, people still became offended and weirded out. I tried so hard to be gentle all the while telling them one day I would reach the point it was obvious and no effort would conceal it. They decided that was still not acceptable so I went full time immediately. I tried, but some people no matter how much you cater to them will never be happy about what you are doing in your life. Now, I hide it from no one, make no concessions and have been living as the woman I am 10 months solid now. You can try and try and someone will always be a hard head even when they see the huge effort being made. Please don't flood the report post bin. This is just my humble opinion, mine, not as a moderator, but a poster. :-\
Totally valid Jessica! Of course if you are going to fully transition into either binary then there is little chance you can do it incrementally, but for non binaries transition can be very subtle or little at all, in which case it's so much easier to preserve relationships with family and siblings because it's not like an atom bomb going off in their faces.
Quote from: Shantel on October 14, 2014, 06:00:26 PM
but for non binaries transition can be very subtle or little at all, in which case it's so much easier to preserve relationships with family and siblings because it's not like an atom bomb going off in their faces.
I did it again, didn't I? :eusa_doh:
<Jessica hauling bootie> :icon_walk: :icon_walk: :icon_walk: :icon_walk: :icon_walk: :icon_walk:
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on October 14, 2014, 06:09:35 PM
I did it again, didn't I? :eusa_doh:
<Jessica hauling bootie> :icon_walk: :icon_walk: :icon_walk: :icon_walk: :icon_walk: :icon_walk:
You did nothing wrong Jessica, you stated how you felt and how you handled your transition and I stated how non-binaries sometimes have the advantage of being more subtle in their transition. Some non binaries go all the way but don't end up with a binary mentality, this would have been my case had I followed through with SRS, but when struck by the absurdity of myself becoming a woman full time I put on the brakes and saved myself 19K and my marriage. Simple to understand hon and not an us and them polarizing thing at all.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on October 14, 2014, 05:24:27 PM
Please don't yell at me as this is only my opinion, OK?
Jessica! :-*
Your opinion matters and I am glad to see you.
I hid behind a beard for two years, using my old name for months after changing it legally. Living as one gender at home and work, another everywhere else. I so wanted to save my marriage that I nearly destroyed myself - my core. For me it didn't work to live and present a duality. It just seemed like cross dressing to me, and I couldn't keep track of who was who and when or where. Yes I am here because I am not all there, but the complexity of my feelings only made things impossible.
It made my wife nuts too. The thing is, she married and wanted to be married to a man. Male, macho even. It isn't that I said love the t-girl or nothing, it was just that I didn't fit what she needs and needed as this kind of feminine androgynous, boy/girl/child. So in the end it came crashing down anyway. I need to be and live as I authentically am. I must do that or die inside. That means a feminine presentation even if I am a chimera inside. I am not a dichotomy, nor am I strictly binary. It am me.
It isn't I am trans love it or leave it, it is I am a human being who needs to be loved, and needs to be accepted if not understood. That I am trans is a distant and not very meaningful attribute of that.
I frankly don't care if you present male, female, queer, or some combination. If you present in one mode in one set of criteria, and another elsewhere. I only care if you are being true to yourself, and are finding joy in the process. Gawd, I have spent too much time in my own darkness, and too much time in the darkness of those I care about to give a jot or a tittle to any of this except as it is a self actualizing experience for each and all.
How you present, how you relate to those you love, how you balance your internal and external world is wonderful as long as it works for you and is not exploitative of anyone else. I will honor your pronouns, your name, your desires, (as best as I remember therm). If they change situationally, so be it. I will try to comply.
Satinjoy, you are my hero. You truly balance gender on the sharp edge of a knife. I know it is sometimes a challenge, and I know that sometimes you struggle. But you do it, and do it with grace even in the face of hostility, even in the face of potential loss. That is one of the most courageous testimonials I can give to anybody.
And it applies here to many. I salute you!
With admiration,
Julie
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on October 14, 2014, 06:09:35 PM
I did it again, didn't I? :eusa_doh:
<Jessica hauling bootie> :icon_walk: :icon_walk: :icon_walk:
:icon_walk: :icon_walk: :icon_walk:
Didn't offend me at all dear.
What I heard in the post was live your truth.
Nothing critical. Nothing triggering, just your story.
Hang in there girl, you have it way rougher than I do.
Can't say more. You are living your truth. That is what we all need to do. Trans is deeply personal, but when truths that are personal are not questioned as.inauthentic, there is so much good that can come.
No triggers here.
Blessings
Satinjoy
Julie, it is getting much easier and the wife has fully accepted gq with me.
Dream come true, I don't need my wig to be all Satinjoy. She is out, just not clothed outwardly totally, but ninety percent expressed girl from the neck down. As odd as it sounds, it works for me, it is a gift, and more and more relaxed.
Blessings
Satinjoy
This is a nice topic and replies.. ;)
Doing a little dance around my computer, with a spoon on my nose..! :icon_geekdance:
It is like they smell it... no matter how hard or in how many different ways I tried... no passing as a male could I execute... that went on until the end of sixth grade...
Then I went away from society for 2 years... I grew tall and self sufficient never adopted any presentations again, neither hided anything... fiends, lover, and eventually the wife they were all were told upfront and before their were my friends or lovers.. and even the kids were told up front..
and that is the way I have lived my life...
For me, outward presentation is male with andro touches. HRT to prevent T related age changes.
It's enough to keep me sane and functional, although a female presentation would suit me best. But going down that path is counter to what Ive vowed to do, so I've made my peace. Had I known I'd end up where I am now, I very well would have made different choices at certain fulcrum points in my life.
I'm accepted as male, but on the outer so to speak, never quite clicking socially as a male completely.
marriage is a compromise. people have so different interests, tastes, and values that it's almost impossible to always be perfect for the other.
i am hoping to get married one day, but not as a woman.
i am really happy that the relationship i had was of a type that would have ended anyway, and that i never fell for the temptation to act a woman just to get a man.
well, i've acted a woman, just not in order to please a guy, wouldn't even do it to please a woman. not after the trans feelings came back, and i started to understand why i can't stand being treated like a woman in a relationship. makes me rather livid, to a point where it becomes increasingly impossible to not get violent.
there's a whole lot of compromise i'd be willing to make. for the sake of appearances, the other person's comfort. but i won't try to change who i am. only the presentation. it doesn't cost me much to wear dresses and skirts, even when i'm feeling totally male. i'll be happy as long as a hypothetical wife doesn't insist on painting the bedroom pink.
my social dysphoria really isn't all that bad. i can stand people seeing me as a woman. what i won't be able to stand, is my closest family and friends not seeing who i am, or trying to change it. when my mom says i dress to masculine, just because she doesn't want me to be anything other than her little girl, it hurts me. it even hurts me when she says i look good in feminine clothing, but only because i know she doesn't want to accept me for who i really am. i love feminine clothing and looking good in it, i don't have a serious real need to wear masculine clothing. but i do have a need to be seen and accepted for who i am, by the people who claim they love me.
there are so many times i've wanted to tell my mother that she doesn't love me, and never has, and that it makes me cringe when she says those untruthful words. but it's not like that would help at all, so i don't. i also know she really does love her illusion of me, so she isn't really lying. she's just living on the side of reality. she always has, and never realized how badly her reality fits with the rest of her family's.
for the sake of my step father, the only one who tried to be a real parent to me (though also failed, just not as horribly), i will not come out as trans. i will do what's needed to be me, and hope he will understand and still be someone i can talk to. but i will not try to do all that i want to, i'll stick with just what i need, and do things slowly. my daughter also needs that, so she can understand that her mother won't just suddenly disappear.
My cis spouse has become fiercely supportive, but it's taken some time for her to reach that point and I worked with her patiently until we can both go bra shopping together and she can say, "This would work well for you, or this looks cute on you!" We're close and very intimate, more so than most trans/cis couples. She likes my taste in female tops and shoes and is fine with my mix and match attire.
My adult son is a carbon copy of my former self and understanding that makes it easy for us both to relate. To him I'll always be dad, he accepts that I am different from all the other dads and he's respectful as is his wife.
My 14 year old granddaughter is a gem, to her I'm her grandpa with boobies who wears some girl stuff, she loves to cuddle up with me on the couch and just be together. I took her shopping the other day, we got some eye make-up at Sapora's and a couple of cute hoodies for school.
Life is good once everyone is in tune with you and has a full understanding of the parameters you have set for yourself with respect to personal ID and outward presentation. What families fear the most is the unknown, lots of conversation to remove all fears and anxiety is an important part of the mix.
And Shantel that implies a great deal of communication and vision and truth and trust, things that take a lot of work and self knowledge and can be undone by fear or a perception shift.
Certainly levels of dysphoria and discomfort play in, but a common theme here appears to be living truthfully to our core, to who we are.
Patience, self restraint, help from experts, and cooperative loved ones are key too, and there is the wishful thinking from them that we are not trans, or that we chose to be trans over them...
So we are up against a lot, sometimes compromise is seen as settling, when it is really an act of love, while dysphoria and other pressures whisper something else.
My own experience of trans feelings continues to change, the merging and acceptance of the components into core being New...and my wife is now handling a presentation that allows me to unbutton some of my shirt, a huge help for me countering dysphoria, the Camille shows and I feel more me.
A long road the whole family walks, sometimes it works, sometimes it is touch. I lost sex, I am female wired physically, but I retained intimacy, I count myself the most blessed non binary mtf spirit on the forum.
Great posts all, Shan I think you and I fully Agree here.
Blessings
Satinjoy
Camisole not Camille, tough,not touch. Stupid smart phone...
Nails out
Satinjoy
Quote from: Satinjoy on October 15, 2014, 08:35:24 PM
Camisole not Camille, tough,not touch. Stupid smart phone...
Nails out
Satinjoy
:D :laugh:I downloaded a new operating system on my laptop that routinely changes and misspells everything I write. So much for artificial intelligence!
Quote from: Shantel on October 15, 2014, 08:32:11 AM
My cis spouse has become fiercely supportive, but it's taken some time for her to reach that point and I worked with her patiently until we can both go bra shopping together and she can say, "This would work well for you, or this looks cute on you!" We're close and very intimate, more so than most trans/cis couples. She likes my taste in female tops and shoes and is fine with my mix and match attire.
Let me expand on the foregoing commentary by saying that this all came about as the result of two marriage counseling sessions with a cis male reputed to be one of the finest marriage counselors in the entire country. When he learned that we had no intention of breaking up in spite of the fact that I had been surgically neutered some years earlier, he just couldn't wrap his mind around how that could be. His pretty young female intern that was with him got it right away. Now let me say that a vast number of cis males entire life and reason for existence is centered in the fact that they have a penis and gonads, so there was in essence a vast chasm that developed instantly between he and myself upon learning that I was in fact trans and that my spouse and I still loved one another in spite of it. As we left that session she was furious and said, "What an imbecile, even his young intern got it, expert my ass!" This is what really cemented our relationship from that moment forward. We made it a point to always spend quality time discussing things between us, private things that no expert needs to be privy to.
I met my wife at a dance. She had been a ballroom dance instructor for years. I was just learning. We danced together for about a year and a half and then started competing as a couple. After a few years of that, I had to move away for a job. Five years later, out of the blue, she came to the town where I live to see a friend of hers and called me. She was newly divorced. We were married 3 months later.
We have danced together literally every week of our marriage. While adjusting to Jean and Jen is still a work in progress, we both agree that I will dress as male to go dancing. After all these years, she really is world class and although I'm not at that level, I am good.
Where we go, everyone knows Jennifer. They are also concerned about me and ask if being a guy again "is OK?" and "How do I do it". I like to dance and I love her. It's not that hard for a few hours.
She is my only exception.
Hugs,
Jen
in the music course in high school, there are usually never enough boys (norway). this means that in obligatory dance classes in the 1st year, most girls will end up dancing as a guy. in female clothing though. one of my favorite ways to mess with guys, is to take the wrong role for a "girl" when dancing. those who aren't good at it will get really confused and have no idea why.
your wife sounds like a great woman, shan. i want one of those too...
"I like to dance and I love her. It's not that hard for a few hours."
That's the bottom line Jen! I expect that you will have a long and loving relationship because of your selfless willingness to do what it takes.
"your wife sounds like a great woman, shan. i want one of those too..."
There out there Taka, she's a very attractive type A personality!