Hey all. I'm posting here because I'm considering trying to de transition, but don't know if that'll make things better or worse. I'm on low dose testosterone and have been for 2 years. I no longer get severe dysphoria on the regular, and I occasionally wonder if I should try being female again. When I look in the mirror I still don't look right, and I dunno how to tell if it's my masculine features or my feminine features features that I'm uncomfortable with. I just know that I find myself severely uncomfortable at times and something has to change. I'm starting therapy again soon, hopefully this guy knows his stuff but I'm not convinced he does.
Sometimes it feels like there's two of me- one who wants to be a boy and one who wants to be a girl.
So I'm certain based on my dysphoria that I either need to up my dose or stop entirely. How do I figure out which to do? Especially considering how depressed I get when dysphoria is bad?
I'm female so I hope you don't mind a girls view on this.
Dysphoria can be debilitating and I would tread carefully before risking going back to a place you already know. Since starting hrt, my Dysphoria has in fact gotten worse. But I may just be looking at myself through more female eyes, and what girl wouldn't be distressed looking masculine. You could in fact be looking at yourself through more male eyes, and maybe just distressed at any female features you see.
Do you have a therapist? I would suggest speaking with him/her before making any major decisions.
That is possible but it's not the kind of dysphoria that'sthat's super clear about what it's over. It's more a sense of discomfort that won't go away combined with an acute anxiety that I'm making the wrong choice. I've always feared that I might come to regret transitioning someday, and the only thing that eventually got me to make up my mind was when it got so bad I was suicidal.
Right now I feel confused and angry and unsure what to do.
I addressed in the OP that I am in the process of starting up with a new therapist. Seeing my old one just want working because of the two hour drive.
How much of an effect has the testosterone had on you so far? You've said it has been a low dose, were you keeping it low to keep effects hidden or because you wanted to proceed slowly?
I began keeping a daily journal and documenting my emotions and feelings throughout the day (intensity, length, etc.). Once you have a completed journal for both situations, it's then easier to compare. It's easy to forget how bad the dysphoria is when you've managed it for a while.
Quote from: Ms Grace on October 17, 2014, 10:17:00 PM
How much of an effect has the testosterone had on you so far? You've said it has been a low dose, were you keeping it low to keep effects hidden or because you wanted to proceed slowly?
I wanted to proceed slowly because I had this fear of regret weighing on me. I've had my voice drop, I've gotten hairier, my skin has gotten oilier and my junk has grown. I've also had some fat distribution changes, and become somewhat more muscular. It's been pretty similar to what happens on full dose just to a lesser degree. I still only have a few stray facial hair though.
Quote from: amZo on October 17, 2014, 10:17:51 PM
I began keeping a daily journal and documenting my emotions and feelings throughout the day (intensity, length, etc.). Once you have a completed journal for both situations, it's then easier to compare. It's easy to forget how bad the dysphoria is when you've managed it for a while.
this sounds like a good idea. Maybe over time I can find some pattern in what triggers it that'll tell me what I need to do. I just hope it doesn't take too long because it's seriously impacting my quality of life to not know
Maybe you do have two sides to you, one that's a boy and one that's a girl. Nothing wrong with that. Its nothing to do with personality disorders or anything like that. Why can't you wear a skirt one day, then boy jeans the next. Looking Androgynous would allow that to happen easily.
Quote from: BreezyB on October 17, 2014, 10:29:35 PM
Maybe you do have two sides to you, one that's a boy and one that's a girl. Nothing wrong with that. Its nothing to do with personality disorders or anything like that. Why can't yu wear a skirt one day, then boy jeans the next. Looking Androgynous would allow that to happen easily.
Edited because I sounded rude:
My problem stems from feeling dysphoric over my current situation, and I currently am fairly androgynous
I'm usually really emotional but this reply will be sensible, not emotional. Living as a girl made you suicidal. That means it will NEVER make you happy or be the right choice. Accept this and then accept that you can either stay in your current situation.(which makes you unhappy) or become a proper man. Besides those choices you only have the choice of death. So not that you know your choices are stay, fully become a man or die, what will it be?
Note: I didn't feel like beating around the bushes would have helped the OP. I spoke from an honest place, without meaning to offend anyone.
Personal experience: as the years went on I got more comfortable having sex with the junk I had (I was never that uncomfortable with it anyway).and I got more comfortable seeing my sometimes more male than female body (usually a combination). I'm now post OP and I'm 100% sure I'll never regret this and that this is absolutely the right thing for me. :)
Butterflies, I would have to respectfully disagree.
Become a "proper man"? Really? There's speaking honestly and there's speaking insensitively. :eusa_naughty: For some people, it is not so black and white about transitioning being a matter of life or death. I once viewed living as a female being equivalent to a death sentence, whereas being male was a life filled of (misguided) happiness. Now I feel living as a male is equivalent to hell because there are more pressure and less freedom of gender expression, it isn't any better than being female and now I wish to live in a more androgynous manner. Feelings, emotions, beliefs and life experiences can change one's view and perception of their identity over the years. We should encourage Zoidberg to explore their feelings more, not give them an ultimatum under the guise of "tough love" which could potentially pressure them to make a choice they could be unhappy with.
Zoidberg,
I understand your situation all too well... I can relate to the dysphoria you are experiencing. I too, present as androgynous.
I have believed all my life that I hated being female but it was not being female that caused my body dysphoria, it was the pressure from society and the physical characteristics of being female that bothered me on an intense level... but the rigid binary thinking led me to believe I was a male, that if I was so miserable as a female, surely, being a male can't be worse...right? I was wrong. Dead wrong.
It took being on testosterone for four years for me to realize that I am comfortable with expressing femininity, something I would have avoided like the black plague pre-HRT because I feared if I enjoyed doing "traditionally feminine activities" that it would reinforce the fact that I am female in the eyes of others, something I did not want to validate as I did not identify as female in any manner whatsoever, only the feminine traits - excluding the female physical sexual characteristics.
Now I am currently stuck in a rather interesting situation. Being on testosterone for four years and passing as a "male" gives me dysphoria. Having a masculine deep voice that enables me to pass as a man, having excess body hair and facial hair triggers dysphoria... I have no money to spend on hair removal as I am strictly throwing all my available money into saving up for top surgery. Having my gender identity as a "male" questioned because I enjoy make-up makes me want to break down crying. I want to wear feminine clothing and feel free to wear masculine clothing as well but I cannot because in this twisted society we live in, men wearing dresses are frowned upon, treated like freaks, like a joke. It is an awful double standard and I hate it so much.
A thought crossed my mind... what if I were to live as a female, where I would have the freedom to wear whatever I like and not have anyone question or cast doubt upon my identity...? I would be a flat-chested (fe)male, unable to conceive children and androgynous in appearance and that would be OK with me... I no longer hate being a female because testosterone has made me realize I never hated being female in the first place, it was my body not aligning with my genderless mind.
Female... male... having experiences of living in both worlds has opened my eyes, very wide. Neither of them are better than the other, both have ridiculous rules and standards people are demanded to follow...
As for me, I definitely do not want to go all the way. While I do want to receive FTM Bottom surgery, I don't view it as going all the way since I do not wish to have a complete set of male genitals. I do not want testicles, nor do I want an average size penis to penetrate others with. Just a small micro-penis to pee standing up (when I feel in "boy" mode) and no balls because I would rather have a smooth surface and be close as I can to being physically sexless.
I used to be suicidal pre-HRT. Going on T and doing the deep soul-searching I have done while on T, it has helped me figure out on a deeper level who I really am - that I am genderless, desire a sexless body and prefer to present as androgynous. If I hadn't gone on T, I don't think I would have ever come to that conclusion. Now I am at that state where I could care less about being referred to as a man or a woman, at this point, I am purely thinking about survival. How can I survive in this world in a safe manner, how can I express myself safely that will not get me killed? Going back to being female, it might make my family jump for joy but their joy will be short-lived as I still desire the (ftm) surgeries I need to align my body with my mind.
I wish I had the chance to stay on low-dose a lot longer, but it took the stronger effects of T for me to realize I do not enjoy it in the slightest. Just like I thought I would enjoy having a deep masculine voice, I do not and now currently seek voice therapy to help train my voice to a more gender neutral range. It's one of those sneaky things, you won't know if you like it or not until you experience it.
I apologize if my comment comes across as incoherent, I have only recently begun thinking over the re-transition to a female-not-quite-female state so my thoughts are still fairly all over the place.
I don't know if I was at all helpful,
Kind regards,
Jacey
Quote from: butterflies on October 18, 2014, 07:30:56 AM
I'm usually really emotional but this reply will be sensible, not emotional. Living as a girl made you suicidal. That means it will NEVER make you happy or be the right choice. Accept this and then accept that you can either stay in your current situation.(which makes you unhappy) or become a proper man. Besides those choices you only have the choice of death. So not that you know your choices are stay, fully become a man or die, what will it be?
Note: I didn't feel like beating around the bushes would have helped the OP. I spoke from an honest place, without meaning to offend anyone.
Personal experience: as the years went on I got more comfortable having sex with the junk I had (I was never that uncomfortable with it anyway).and I got more comfortable seeing my sometimes more male than female body (usually a combination). I'm now post OP and I'm 100% sure I'll never regret this and that this is absolutely the right thing for me. :)
Hmm, I can't say I would agree with you butterflies. I don't think this advice would be sensible to take on board as there are so many factors which we are not aware of. Jacey is right, this is not as simple as life or death. It may have been for you though and Im glad you've found your peace. Many are unable to though just now.
Quote from: Zoidberg on October 17, 2014, 10:47:16 PM
Edited because I sounded rude:
My problem stems from feeling dysphoric over my current situation, and I currently am fairly androgynous
No problems Zoidberg, wasn't rude at all :)
One thing I keep repeating to myself for the past 6 years of this process is "I know what does not work". I especially have to go way out of the way to remind myself of that whenever I've gotten into one of my "WTF are you doing???" funks.
HRT has saved my butt several times over the decades. The down side is once you start feeling better about your life you start thinking "Hey, I am OK now. Time to get back to being normal" Yet, you know all too well what "normal" is, that is why you wanted to make changes.
Fear, shame, guilt may be a big factor in your feelings just as they are for me
One thing that helped me sort through my feelings after I started HRT was non-personal visualization. I would pick a hypothetical activity, like going to a formal dinner, or hanging out at home, or going on a date, or anything. I created a mental image that was distinctly not me of a stereotypically masculine man, and a stereotypically feminine woman. And I put myself mentally into that construct's shoes as much as I could and imagined doing that activity first as one, and then as the other. And I examined my emotional reactions to each.
The idea being to remove your hangups about your SELF from the situation, and only visualize a gender. Maybe you feel uncomfortable in one but not the other, maybe you feel uncomfortable in both, maybe neither. I found this helped me. But it did require a lot of mental gymnastics. A quiet room alone is preferable.
Quote from: BreezyB on October 18, 2014, 09:32:50 AM
Hmm, I can't say I would agree with you butterflies. I don't think this advice would be sensible to take on board as there are so many factors which we are not aware of. Jacey is right, this is not as simple as life or death. It may have been for you though and Im glad you've found your peace. Many are unable to though just now.
No problems Zoidberg, wasn't rude at all :)
If what I say isn't true for someone then I don't claim to know their feelings better :) but I know people often make things that are simple to begin with into something unnecessarily complicated. If my words don't ring true to the OP then by all means ignore them. That's the only advice I know to give anyway. Maybe someone else can help the OP better if my advice was bad for him/her.
Delsorou gave an excellent suggestion. +10
I found that anxiety medication drastically reduced my dysphoria - something that my doctors had never tried, and I've heard of people being prescribed anti-depressants, etcetera with various results but the two work completely differently so trying both at different times can be helpful.
Another thing I did was to educate myself about the bodies of women - cisgender women today already suffer from extreme dysphoria - they feel fat, or they feel ugly, or they have problems with the shape of their body parts (breast, genitals, etc). For some of us this turns into eating disorders, for others it turns into self-loathing that may result in cutting or other acts of self-harm, and yes I do know some people for whom this resulted in a feeling of disconnection from their entire gender and they feel they don't want to be a woman at all and want to transition.
Learning about the reasons why men and women's bodies are different - especially evolutionarily and historically - can be very helpful. This is something most people have only a fleeting knowledge of, but picking up a good book or two at the library and read the entire thing with an open mind and it could also give you a new perspective.
The reality is that many people are unhappy with their bodies and many transgender people are initially delighted with testosterone, then with top surgery - often not wanting bottom surgery. Some people stop somewhere along the line, others keep wanting to change things. Just like with plastic surgery, some people can stop but others keep feeling the bad feelings inside and think they can get rid of it by molding their bodies into another form, but we are human beings - not plastic. There will always be things we don't like about our bodies and instead of running away from them it may be worth taking an honest look at the fact that we DO need to accept our flaws at some point, and sometimes altering ourselves can make us feel better, but sometimes we just end up losing money and making scars only to feel good for a few months or years and then the same dysphoria comes back just as hard or harder.
I just wanted to thank you all for these replies. It gives me a lot to think about. Unfortunately while I'm in this state my anxiety is too high and I'm too stressed to do anything other than feel desperate. I think for now getting help and finding ways to tolerate the stress is my best bet. Someone suggested I try stopping t and see if the dysphoria comes back or not. Best way to know for sure? Definitely. Psychologically dangerous? Absolutely. I don't know how I could experiment with thissafely. The demons are back in full force and something has to change
Hi,
I'm not sure I can say anything helpful, as you seem really distressed at the moment. Getting a local support network would be best in the short term, I think. Also generally bolstering you emotional strength with stuff that is resource oriented (there is a lot about that online, focusing not so much on getting rid of the bad feeling, but supporting the moments where you feel better. Making lists of stuff that make you feel good, despite the gender issues. If possible taking controlled holidays (like one day) from the gender issues etc, walking a dog, or whatever ;-))
Generally, it sounds sensible to test if you feel better on T or without T. And as a girl or as a boy (or if this changes periodically, which would be ok too, you could be more bi-gender or ambi-gender or whatever).
Also, keep in mind that T and hormonal change itself might influence your mood. A diary would be helpful to find out if there is a connection. For example: In my case, my body dysphoria and body identity is linked to my hormonal cycle.
Some guys don't feel well on low T, because it might interfere with the female hormones but not fully provide male hormones which might lead to generally low hormones, which can cause depression and other issues.
Or you might have an underlying menstrual cycle, with stronger PMS because of the T irritation. And so on-
So, you should get your hormone levels checked, too, if possible.
And don't panic ;-) You have time to figure this out, you don't have to decide it *now*.
I would strongly suggest speaking with a mental health professional or getting your chemical levels checked by an endocrinologist who does not 'specialize' in transgender patients. You want someone who will stand back and take an objective look at everything going on, not just try and find a fix for dysphoria. The human body is much more complicated than any machine - we cannot look only at the problem, but must also look objectively for a source. Too often these days doctors hear dysphoria and decide to treat the dysphoria, when really they should try and examine every aspect of a person's body and mind to try and figure out what CAUSED the dysphoria, because treating the symptom without treating the source is like mopping up water while you let a leaky faucet keep on running.
Hope you find a solution that makes you happy. Best wishes,
CT
Bunter- this makes a lot of good sense to me, I definitely need to build up a strong base stop that I can handle this better. I also ought to get back into journaling about this.
Should I choose to try and see if I feel better on or off t, which I am currently considering trying, I need and advice. Obviously I should work with a physician as well as a therapist. But what they are unlikely to have concrete answers for I would like some advice on
If I decide to try this, how do I do it safely for my psyche? If stopping makes me horribly anxious but so does continuing, I mean.
I'm worried of the consequences for my life as well as the immediate risk of making my dysphoria worse with the wrong move
Quote from: Zoidberg on October 22, 2014, 01:15:59 AM
If I decide to try this, how do I do it safely for my psyche? If stopping makes me horribly anxious but so does continuing, I mean.
I'm worried of the consequences for my life as well as the immediate risk of making my dysphoria worse with the wrong move
You're saying that both stopping and continuing make you anxious. The consequences of transitioning on your life are immense and unable to be fully predicted as they can lay buried and come forth months and even years into the future, as I found out the hard way. It is best to avoid that if at all possible.
Dysphoria, repetitive negative thoughts, is another form of anxiety... perhaps try some anxiety medicine, specifically something that may treat OCD as the repetitive thoughts that accompany dysphoria are a process that is similar to other obsessive thoughts and drives.
I tried an anxiety medication that I took in two small doses daily and it was an incredible relief to my mind.
I'm glad antianxiety meds have worked to ease your dysphoria. However, that was not my experience. I have attempted using antianxiety meds, antidepressants, hormonal birth control to see if it was a simple hormonal imbalance as you suggested earlier, even antipsychotics, but none of those worked. T was not my first choice, as I know it's a serious decision. I've sought a differential diagnosis plenty of times and its pretty clear that this is about my gender in some way.
What I'm looking for is advice on ways to safely explore my gender identity and relationship with my body in conjunction with my therapy. If you have any ideas of how to do this I'd greatly appreciate them.
Exploring one's gender identity and relationship with one's body can be helpful.
Try having "female" days where you are dressed in a feminine manner, envisioning yourself as a female inside your mind and have others refer you with female pronouns, interact with you as if you are female, etc. Have "male" days where you dress masculine, envisioning yourself as male and have others refer you with male pronouns, interact with you as if you are male and having "neutral" days where you are dressing in a gender-neutral manner, envisioning yourself as a neutral gender, have others refer you with neutral pronouns, interact with you as if you are a person, rather than male/female.
Carefully examine your emotional responses and feelings growing within you on of these days, maybe even diary your thoughts. If you feel inclined to, you can even do a mixture of both binaries or a binary combined with neutral (e.g. female & male, male/female & neutral) I have experimented with make-up in the past and have found I am most comfortable being a mix of male and neutral with feminine traits but not necessarily female.
Some more ideas-
in the past, there was the concept of an every day test (English word?) where during therapy you had a given time, like one or two years, during which you were free to experiment and see how you felt. It's not the worst idea if someone is not sure how to proceed.
Like was suggested, you could set boundaries in which you explore stuff. A male day, a female day, a genderqueer day etc. Make sure to have "genderfree" days a lot too. You really need breaks in between all that obsessing ;-) we all do the obsessing, but it shouldn't overwhelm you.
Talk to an endocrinologist about your hormone dosage. Maybe also to a gynecologist. It's a bit of a challenge to find open-minded and experienced doctors and therapists, but hang in there. I searched for almost a year, but now I have a good team.
And really make sure that you have nice experiences in other areas, and take good care of yourself (regular food, sleep, free time, sport etc).
Just avoid situations that trigger dysphoria. If looking in the mirror makes you feel bad, don't look in the mirror and so on. Don't get OCD-ish with that though, just try do it naturally, as you would not wear your tightest trousers just after christmas ^^
I kind of feel the same way... I need to either stop E and my anti-androgen or go all the way with FFS and SRS... I just can't stand being in between. Maybe that's your problem too? You want to be part of the binary, not something in between. I think it's normal when we've been socialized all our lives with "male" and "female" and a clear distinct line between the two. The thought of breaking this mold and constantly drawing attention to myself scares me and makes me uneasy. It's not something I want to deal with.
It's weird. I love the development I've had on HRT as well; I love becoming more feminine, but at the same it's incredibly disturbing to me to see myself as somewhere in between male and female. It's strange to feel excited and happy I'm growing breasts and at the same time freaked out and scared. Looking back at pictures even a few months ago I see myself and I can say "that's a pretty attractive guy, I'd totally date him." At the same time I WANT to be a woman. I want to take this all the way -- have a female body, a female face and of course female genitals, but getting "stuck" somewhere in between -- not quite female, not quite male, not quite passable as a woman, kinda awkward looking as a guy -- freaks me out a lot.
I don't know if your fear is the same as mine, but for me its a fear that I'll be stuck in this awkward transition stage forever. I fear I'll never get over the hill to achieve womanhood so I should just stop and take the manhood I have now and deal with the dysphoria as it come. I guess in a way, I rank being a man as worse than being a woman but still better than being in between genders.