You folk have no idea how much I'm in love with your rule that one cannot advocate the separation or exclusion of members of our community. I've been doing a lot of reading about the origins of the LGBT liberation movement, and reason why we were so strong was because we all recognized the common oppression of sexuality and gender expression. Now, everywhere I turn, I see the promotion in the GLBT community to break the bonds that made us such a force to be reckoned with.
Apparently, 40 years ago the trans umbrella included not only transsexuals and transgenderists but drag queens/kings, cross dressers, intersex individuals, and even feminine men and masculine women we would today qualify as cisgender. Today, however, this diversity is dying out. Drag is always put down for being just performance, and even accused of promoting trans oppression. Cross dressers are also dismissed for the same reason: just wearing clothing is consider not good enough to be trans. Some people in the trans community even perpetuate the belief that cross dressing is solely sexual based, and in turn claim that it promotes the fetishism of trans people. I have never seen an intersex person or organization have any interest associating with us, and of course feminine men and masculine women have been booted out because they are now defined as cisgender even though they too suffer punishment for their gender expression. I even heard the proposal that the word transgender be "taken back," and only include transsexual people!
I completely understand the disgruntlement toward the GLB part of are community. The general treatment of gay marriage as the final frontier of civil rights is absurd, and the whole gradualization strategy of "lets get the less radical stuff out of the way first, and then we'll focus on you" is quite frankly insulting and I believe ineffective for real social change. However, to suggest that transgender folk need to separate entirely from the GLB community is too much. To do so is to throw away our history and strength.
For me, this separatist attitude makes me feel like I have to choose between being a gay man and being a trans man. Heck, the separatist attitude has made me question if I was transgender at all! I felt not only unwanted by the community but that my mere existence was a threat to them. It made me believe that the best way to promote trans rights is to remain a "straight cisgender ally" and never transition.
What happened over the decades? I felt so enlightened and elated to read the origins of the trans community, and its alliance with the GLB and other liberation movement. Why are we abandoning this? Why are we choosing to move backward? It makes me fear for our future.
I see (and agree) with what you're saying about unity. There is strength in numbers, and it is never a bad thing to have friends.
And indeed, our definitions of what it means to be trans have narrowed. No one that you mentioned should be excluded; it is not right to brush off someone else's gender identity (or sexual orientation, for that matter) to validate your own.
With that being said, I do believe that gender and sexuality need to be kept separate because mixing them leads to a lot of confusion and ignorance.
This is not to say that we should not all support each other, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a part of both communities, but honestly, the less ignorance on the part of the masses, the better.
This is only my opinion and not meant to offend anyone.
Kyler.
I am probably going to make people mad. *sigh* Prepare the torches and pitchforks.
Quote from: Satyrane on October 20, 2014, 09:54:54 AM
Drag is always put down for being just performance, and even accused of promoting trans oppression.
To be fair, there have been issues with drag queens slinging around the offensive slur "->-bleeped-<-" and then acting like trans women, the people against whom that slur is used most with intent to hurt, had no right to be upset. While not all drag queens do that, that behaviour does promote trans oppression.
Quote from: Satyrane on October 20, 2014, 09:54:54 AMCross dressers are also dismissed for the same reason: just wearing clothing is consider not good enough to be trans.
This may be due to the fact that it's clothing. Some of us (me at least) think the idea of clothing having a gender is ridiculous. Some of us are tired of people getting gender and expression mixed up. We're tired of hearing "why don't you just be a crossdresser?" or "why don't you just be butch?"
Quote from: Satyrane on October 20, 2014, 09:54:54 AMI have never seen an intersex person or organization have any interest associating with us,
You'd have to ask the intersex people who don't want to be associated with us.
Quote from: Satyrane on October 20, 2014, 09:54:54 AMand of course feminine men and masculine women have been booted out because they are now defined as cisgender
Some of us HATE gender roles with a burning passion. Some of us are also sick to death of people getting gender confused with gender roles.
I don't know why you'd feel you have to choose between being gay and being trans. I don't get along with LGB community for a few reasons, but that doesn't stop me from being bi. Even if I didn't transition, I'd still be a guy. A very unhappy guy in a female-shaped body, but still a guy.
Personally, I want people to just wear what they want, be who they are, and stop pretending gender roles are anything more than illogical. Do I think we need to work together? Yes. But people don't need a label to do it. To me, labelling people who could be classified as "masculine" or "feminine" and gendering clothing goes against that goal.
Quote from: Edge on October 20, 2014, 11:06:33 AM
Personally, I want people to just wear what they want, be who they are, and stop pretending gender roles are anything more than illogical. Do I think we need to work together? Yes. But people don't need a label to do it. To me, labelling people who could be classified as "masculine" or "feminine" and gendering clothing goes against that goal.
To put an end to labels...that would be the day, huh.
Kyler.
I can't speak for intersex people, not being one (to my knowledge). But we have intersex people in our support group. Also here and in my group on FB many of whom do use the term transgender to apply to them. As for drag queens/kings, well they are an unusual group. I believe some of them ARE trans and some are not. I know a guy who is a drag queen (nice guy), who is a cis gay man. He just enjoys it. It's fun and theatrical and so on. But there are other drag people who are trans. I know a guy who did drag as a drag king for years. He ended up transitioning because being drag was NOT enough for him. He still does it for charity and so on. (I know others who are trans, but not so well.) Crossdressers (i believe ->-bleeped-<-s is rather an unpleasant term) are normally straight cis males. But there are many exceptions and many trans women who are cross dressing for years (often in childhood) because it was all they could do. (What's a cross dressing woman called-- nothing it's never called cross dressing.)
Funny thing re: the umbrella. I do Trans 101 for a local trans center and I just got the presentation so I could do them by myself if needed. The umbrella slide disappeared. I asked why. Too complicated I was told, re all the drag king/queen thing, the cross dresser thing, etc. You have to explain too much. I suppose it's more of a 201 slide. :)
--Jay
Quote from: Satyrane on October 20, 2014, 09:54:54 AM
You folk have no idea how much I'm in love with your rule that one cannot advocate the separation or exclusion of members of our community. I've been doing a lot of reading about the origins of the LGBT liberation movement, and reason why we were so strong was because we all recognized the common oppression of sexuality and gender expression. Now, everywhere I turn, I see the promotion in the GLBT community to break the bonds that made us such a force to be reckoned with.
Apparently, 40 years ago the trans umbrella included not only transsexuals and transgenderists but drag queens/kings, cross dressers, intersex individuals, and even feminine men and masculine women we would today qualify as cisgender. Today, however, this diversity is dying out. Drag is always put down for being just performance, and even accused of promoting trans oppression. Cross dressers are also dismissed for the same reason: just wearing clothing is consider not good enough to be trans. Some people in the trans community even perpetuate the belief that cross dressing is solely sexual based, and in turn claim that it promotes the fetishism of trans people. I have never seen an intersex person or organization have any interest associating with us, and of course feminine men and masculine women have been booted out because they are now defined as cisgender even though they too suffer punishment for their gender expression. I even heard the proposal that the word transgender be "taken back," and only include transsexual people!
I completely understand the disgruntlement toward the GLB part of are community. The general treatment of gay marriage as the final frontier of civil rights is absurd, and the whole gradualization strategy of "lets get the less radical stuff out of the way first, and then we'll focus on you" is quite frankly insulting and I believe ineffective for real social change. However, to suggest that transgender folk need to separate entirely from the GLB community is too much. To do so is to throw away our history and strength.
For me, this separatist attitude makes me feel like I have to choose between being a gay man and being a trans man. Heck, the separatist attitude has made me question if I was transgender at all! I felt not only unwanted by the community but that my mere existence was a threat to them. It made me believe that the best way to promote trans rights is to remain a "straight cisgender ally" and never transition.
What happened over the decades? I felt so enlightened and elated to read the origins of the trans community, and its alliance with the GLB and other liberation movement. Why are we abandoning this? Why are we choosing to move backward? It makes me fear for our future.
I see your point, and I really want a united group which sadly is not always the caise.
we are alot of people and very diffrent, so making us an united group are rather difficult, however
how the comunities works depends from place to place. Someplaces it more stiff and somewhere more openminded and filled with varity.
I dont know the reason, I think maybe because we are more people with more attention, and because the distance between us as in "status" have become more seperated from low and high hiraki on how much acceptance we own.
There's nothing wrong with the general sentiment of unity and support, and I support anyone's rights and expression, but I guess I just don't see your point here. I don't really like the idea of being randomly lumped in with a bunch of people who I don't feel I have anything in common with. I think all that does is serve to confuse all our individual issues. And I don't see why I need to be shoehorned in with other groups in order to get things accomplished. We should care about each other and others' rights because we're all part of humanity, not because we see each other as somehow belonging to our special unconventional gender expression club or whatever.
Quote from: Pikachu on October 20, 2014, 03:26:52 PM
There's nothing wrong with the general sentiment of unity and support, and I support anyone's rights and expression, but I guess I just don't see your point here. I don't really like the idea of being randomly lumped in with a bunch of people who I don't feel I have anything in common with. I think all that does is serve to confuse all our individual issues. And I don't see why I need to be shoehorned in with other groups in order to get things accomplished. We should care about each other and others' rights because we're all part of humanity, not because we see each other as somehow belonging to our special unconventional gender expression club or whatever.
Thank you. Exactly.
The main thing is, in my opinion anyway, is that too many people seem to want to look down on someone or at the least see themselves as better than, so they don't want to be in the same subgroup as those people. People by nature have some sort of bias and it shows quite a bit in discussions like this.
And keep in mind, that if you keep throwing members of the transgender umbrella off the bus because you don't wish to be associated with them, then your bus could get canceled for lack of riders eventually. A stupid analogy but then consider the source...
Don't worry so much about what you don't have in common, but look for the things that you might have in common and embrace that.
To people who say we don't have anything in common with drag queens, crossdressers, femboys and butch gals, guess what? You're wrong. We are all oppressed for the same reason: we violate traditional "rules" of gender, and face discrimination, harassment, and violence because of it. We aren't exactly the same and don't have the exact same needs, but as a community we are facing resistence for the same reason, and for that reason I think we are all in the same boat. No, I don't think it. I know it. Anyone who says that "these people aren't like me, they aren't trans" is part of the problem.
And hey-labels suck. I really, really hate labels. But that does not mean we can't unite as a community. There's a huge difference between refusing to be labeled and refusing to organize, and fight oppression under one banner.
I'd agree with this:
Quote from: Pikachu on October 20, 2014, 03:26:52 PM
There's nothing wrong with the general sentiment of unity and support, and I support anyone's rights and expression, but I guess I just don't see your point here. I don't really like the idea of being randomly lumped in with a bunch of people who I don't feel I have anything in common with.
And I'd agree with this, too:
Quote from: Jaime R D on October 20, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
And keep in mind, that if you keep throwing members of the transgender umbrella off the bus because you don't wish to be associated with them, then your bus could get canceled for lack of riders eventually.
I don't feel like I have to have something in common with someone in order to support them. E.g., I'm not gay and I have no intention of ever getting married, but I support same-sex marriage nonetheless. When you support openness and progress generally, you're supporting it for yourself.
I note the strategic blunder a lot of our bitterest enemies make. They're so insecure about themselves that they're uncomfortable with those who are different. Everybody has to be the same as them. The mistake here is that if we're judging people, excluding them, then anybody can be judged and excluded for the least little reason because nobody ever fits the mould perfectly. Which means that the insecure person remains insecure because he can never be sure that he himself won't be excluded. In his efforts to exclude others he may only be building towards his own exclusion.
The way to be secure is to be all-inclusive. When everybody is accepted, then that person will be accepted himself and so he no longer has to feel insecure. As they say, nobody counts unless everybody counts. So even if I don't have anything in common with someone else, it still makes sense to support them. (Even if some of them don't support me, which some of them don't. But that's another story.)
Actually, I can't unite with people who enforce what I'm against. I am very much against gender roles. Do I think we should unite together against them? Yes. Do I think perpetuating the idea that they exist helps in any way, shape, or form? Heck no.
How does out community support gender roles? I'm very much against them. Sure, there are a few old-school transsexuals who still cling to them, but for the most part we all disavow them on some level big or small...
Labelling someone as trans because they are "feminine" or "masculine" enforces gender roles. It perpetuates the idea that gender roles = gender instead of the idea that anyone of any gender can have whatever traits they have. Same with clothing.
Yes, but even if you oppose the labels themselvs, like I do, these people still are violating traditional gender norms. Like we are. I don't like those words either! We're just in the same boat as they are...
This issue is I'm being told I owe something to the community. Hello? I started transition and was mostly done before even talking to the community.
Ugh. Seriously, people? How is it I can make a statement saying we should care about ALL people and then be told I'm somehow part of a problem? That is ridiculous. Just because I am not the same as someone doesn't mean I can't support them and be against the discrimination they face.
If this stance somehow makes me a problem to you, Sasha, well tough. Because I'm going to keep having my opinions and I'm going to keep being against the discrimination you face whether you like me or not. I don't need to be part of some club to care about people.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on October 20, 2014, 04:09:52 PM
Yes, but even if you oppose the labels themselvs, like I do, these people still are violating traditional gender norms. Like we are. I don't like those words either! We're just in the same boat as they are...
By that logic, pretty much every human being is trans because every human being violates at least some gender "norms" in some way and everyone is in the same boat. Then we'll have to find another word for those of us who are a different gender than the one we're assigned at birth because we do have different issues (like dysphoria and transition).
I'm not saying we shouldn't all support each other. I'm saying they don't need to be called trans for us to be on the same side.
Quote from: Pikachu on October 20, 2014, 04:14:56 PM
Ugh. Seriously, people? How is it I can make a statement saying we should care about ALL people and then be told I'm somehow part of a problem? That is ridiculous. Just because I am not the same as someone doesn't mean I can't support them and be against the discrimination they face.
If this stance somehow makes me a problem to you, Sasha, well tough. Because I'm going to keep having my opinions and I'm going to keep being against the discrimination you face whether you like me or not. I don't need to be part of some club to care about people.
^ Hear hear
No, no! What I meant is that you're drawing lines. "People I don't have anything in common with...". Drawing lines is the problem the OP was pointing out, certainly didn't mean anything other than that. Sorry if it came off that way hon :/
I've been saying that for ages Edge! We're all trans, some of us are more trans etc. And yeah, we do have moe extensive needs than the rest of the population (specificly medical care), but that doesn't make it an "Us and them" situation, does it?
No, but it does make it a "some of my issues are different from yours" thing. Which is not a bad thing. People are diverse and have diverse issues.
I think calling everyone trans due to gender "norms" enforces gender "norms." Not to mention that definition of trans alienates those of us who feel that gender "norms" have nothing to do with our gender and are insulted by the implication.
But gender norms have to do with all of our genders-that's what gender is in my opinion. A socialy constructed list of "norms".
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on October 20, 2014, 04:18:47 PM
No, no! What I meant is that you're drawing lines. "People I don't have anything in common with...". Drawing lines is the problem the OP was pointing out, certainly didn't mean anything other than that. Sorry if it came off that way hon :/
I've been saying that for ages Edge! We're all trans, some of us are more trans etc. And yeah, we do have moe extensive needs than the rest of the population (specificly medical care), but that doesn't make it an "Us and them" situation, does it?
1) Sorry, I don't agree with your definition of trans. At all. A trans person is someone who does not identify as the gender they were assigned at birth. Therefore, a feminine cis man or a masculine cis woman cannot be trans, because they identify as the gender they were assigned.
2) If simply not following society's gender roles makes someone trans, then doesn't that make any man who isn't attracted to women, and any woman who isn't attracted to men, trans? Because I'm pretty sure society expects women to solely be attracted to men and vice versa. So what's the point of the L, G, B, P, etc in LGBT+? Why not just "T", then?
3) "Some people are more trans"?? Really?
Really?? Does that make me "triple trans", then? Because I don't ID as my assigned gender, I am feminine despite my gender identity being male, and I'm not solely attracted to women.
Not trying to start anything here, but that comment really bothered me.. No one is "more trans" than anyone. You're either trans, or you're not. Period.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on October 20, 2014, 05:06:43 PM
But gender norms have to do with all of our genders-that's what gender is in my opinion. A socialy constructed list of "norms".
This is exactly what I am whole heartedly against.
And I am too! Against the concept of gender in general! I am sorry though, this has gottn way off topic, and the fact remains that we need to stop having arguements like this and just accept the fact that our community needs to stick together and stop waisting it's energy fighting people in similar situations.
Painter, gender identity is not about gender roles. As I stated in my last response, I am feminine despite ID'ing as male.
Yes, if you ID as male or female, you're "expected" to act and dress a certain way. But again those are gender roles -- not gender identity. Gender identity is gender.
Uh... I just quoted exactly what you said and said I am whole heartedly against it. Why would you say it's your opinion if you're actually against it too?
I think arguments like this do need to happen.
I absolutely refuse to stick by people who enforce gender "norms" and spread that misconception that gender = gender "norms" because I think they are harmful to everyone.
I don't think fighting against this is a waste of energy.
We're also still on topic since the topic is why people who are the gender they were assigned at birth aren't trans just because gender "norms" aren't normal.
I do not concern myself with traditional roles nor expectations of what a woman or transwoman is perceived to be. I only concern myself with being true to myself. We are all unique individuals and there are simply as many ways to be trans as there are transpeople. The fact remains that there are people out there who wish to keep the decks stacked against us, and if we do not stand together, our goals will remain out of reach.
Divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book. Don't let that happen to us.
We need to refrain from being judgemental about each other while embracing our individuality and each other.
*chucks mic on ground*
Quote from: Jill F on October 20, 2014, 05:40:59 PM
Divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book.
True and it works very well.
QuoteDon't let that happen to us.
Sad to say, it more than likely will happen.
Quote*chucks mic on ground*
You just bought a microphone, buddy! >:(
Quote from: Satyrane on October 20, 2014, 09:54:54 AM
You folk have no idea how much I'm in love with your rule that one cannot advocate the separation or exclusion of members of our community. I've been doing a lot of reading about the origins of the LGBT liberation movement, and reason why we were so strong was because we all recognized the common oppression of sexuality and gender expression. Now, everywhere I turn, I see the promotion in the GLBT community to break the bonds that made us such a force to be reckoned with.
Apparently, 40 years ago the trans umbrella included not only transsexuals and transgenderists but drag queens/kings, cross dressers, intersex individuals, and even feminine men and masculine women we would today qualify as cisgender. Today, however, this diversity is dying out. Drag is always put down for being just performance, and even accused of promoting trans oppression. Cross dressers are also dismissed for the same reason: just wearing clothing is consider not good enough to be trans. Some people in the trans community even perpetuate the belief that cross dressing is solely sexual based, and in turn claim that it promotes the fetishism of trans people. I have never seen an intersex person or organization have any interest associating with us, and of course feminine men and masculine women have been booted out because they are now defined as cisgender even though they too suffer punishment for their gender expression. I even heard the proposal that the word transgender be "taken back," and only include transsexual people!
I completely understand the disgruntlement toward the GLB part of are community. The general treatment of gay marriage as the final frontier of civil rights is absurd, and the whole gradualization strategy of "lets get the less radical stuff out of the way first, and then we'll focus on you" is quite frankly insulting and I believe ineffective for real social change. However, to suggest that transgender folk need to separate entirely from the GLB community is too much. To do so is to throw away our history and strength.
For me, this separatist attitude makes me feel like I have to choose between being a gay man and being a trans man. Heck, the separatist attitude has made me question if I was transgender at all! I felt not only unwanted by the community but that my mere existence was a threat to them. It made me believe that the best way to promote trans rights is to remain a "straight cisgender ally" and never transition.
What happened over the decades? I felt so enlightened and elated to read the origins of the trans community, and its alliance with the GLB and other liberation movement. Why are we abandoning this? Why are we choosing to move backward? It makes me fear for our future.
I don't think it's falling apart, nor do I think the people who developed the umbrella concept expected to build it once and forget about it. It needs maintenance to stay in good working form, like any tool. That's our job. I feel like I'm doing my part, I'm always pushing for equality for everyone under the umbrella.
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Satyrane on October 20, 2014, 09:54:54 AM
What happened over the decades? I felt so enlightened and elated to read the origins of the trans community, and its alliance with the GLB and other liberation movement. Why are we abandoning this? Why are we choosing to move backward? It makes me fear for our future.
Maybe it's just my doom-and-gloom, the-glass-is-half-empty attitude, but I don't think there was ever a time when everyone was happily under one umbrella. Any umbrella. E.g., the Stonewall riots were largely carried out by the groups that the mainstream gays hated to be associated with: the drag queens, the (non-passing) ->-bleeped-<-s, the blatantly "->-bleeped-<-gy" guys, and the homeless gay youths, and I think the contempt was mutual. In the transsexual community (to use the traditional term), transgender people who didn't rigidly adhere to the expectations of their new sex used to be condemned more severely by their fellow transsexuals than by society at large.
If anything, I think the situation is improving, albeit very, very slowly. I only recently started attending our local transgender support group, which is part of the local LGBT center, and there's (now) a fair amount of overlap between the trans and the gay and lesbian groups, but the long-time participants tell me it didn't used to be that way.
I think the more socially and politically active people in the various communities do see the need to work together, if only on the "we must all hang together, or we will all hang separately" principle. Trans rights are now seen by mainstream feminists and gay and lesbian activists as an important component of feminism and gay rights in a way they weren't even ten years ago. (We're still working on raising people's consciousness about the issues non-white people face :( )
But most of the people in pretty much any community aren't all that politically conscious, and the only oppressions they're even all that aware of are the ones they themselves face. So it's not surprising that they have the same prejudices and bigotries towards other oppressed groups that society at large has.
Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on October 20, 2014, 04:11:27 PM
This issue is I'm being told I owe something to the community. Hello? I started transition and was mostly done before even talking to the community.
I also am taken aback by the concept that I am beholden to some community. I am not the same as other people, what I want is different than other people. I am against discrimination because I have a sense of dignity, empathy and compassion. I don't have to be part of some community to care about people.
Quote from: Pikachu on October 20, 2014, 03:26:52 PM
There's nothing wrong with the general sentiment of unity and support, and I support anyone's rights and expression, but I guess I just don't see your point here. I don't really like the idea of being randomly lumped in with a bunch of people who I don't feel I have anything in common with. I think all that does is serve to confuse all our individual issues. And I don't see why I need to be shoehorned in with other groups in order to get things accomplished. We should care about each other and others' rights because we're all part of humanity, not because we see each other as somehow belonging to our special unconventional gender expression club or whatever.
I think this is correct.
I'm not gay, well at least not my birth gender, but transitioned I may be or I may not be. But being transsexual doesn't make me gay. That is separate. I don't hate gay people but we are different.
I don't want to be trans anything. I want to be a woman. But being trans is something I have to deal with so I do.
I want unity and strength. Joining up with other oppressed is one way to do it. I care about human rights and freedom too. I believe in freedom of the individual.
Cross dressing is twofold. For some people it is just a fetish. For others it is a gateway.
I don't really believe going gender neutral is going to solve things. I want to be a woman which implies I want to look like one which means they must look, act and think different from men.
This is why you don't let it catch the wind.
.
.
.
Before I see myself out, I'll quote this for emphasis:
Quote from: Pikachu on October 20, 2014, 04:14:56 PM
Ugh. Seriously, people? How is it I can make a statement saying we should care about ALL people and then be told I'm somehow part of a problem? That is ridiculous. Just because I am not the same as someone doesn't mean I can't support them and be against the discrimination they face.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on October 20, 2014, 04:02:57 PM
How does out community support gender roles? I'm very much against them. Sure, there are a few old-school transsexuals who still cling to them, but for the most part we all disavow them on some level big or small...
Not sure what is meant by "gender roles" but they are varied.
Do I support the right of women and men to seek whatever employment or do whatever activities they choose to do? Absolutely. A man can work in a daycare center or be a nurse (which actually is quite common) or a woman can work in construction, on an oil rig or be an executive.
But as far as choice, if a woman chooses to look beautiful and be wooed by men, more power to her. I wouldn't mind being treated like a lady at all.
The point I was making is that a man who works in a day care centre isn't trans just because he works in a day care centre because working in a day care centre has nothing to do with gender.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on October 20, 2014, 06:17:40 PM
I don't think it's falling apart, nor do I think the people who developed the umbrella concept expected to build it once and forget about it. It needs maintenance to stay in good working form, like any tool. That's our job. I feel like I'm doing my part, I'm always pushing for equality for everyone under the umbrella.
Hugs, Devlyn
Good point that the trans umbrella needs a redo, but it's complex I think. Eventually some drag performers do transition, implying of course that they were trans all a long (and some do not). Some cross dressers do identify as trans (and some do not). Some intersex people consider themselves trans, and others almost violently disagree. OTOH, I feel that some of what we term transsexual people do not identify as "trans" whatsoever. And some gender non-comforming people do not use the term transgender. Complex stuff that makes my head ache if I were think about it too hard. But I do see that there is a wider concept of transgender with a number of different types of people and identities who all have this going against the gender norms or whatever that brings us all together.
As the guy who runs the local trans center says, if any of the people under here comes in for services they would not be turned away. Nor if anyone wants to say they are my brother, sister, or sibling in this... :)
--Jay
The only separation I would like to see is it being stated that gender doesn't play a role in sexuality and lumping the T with the 3 sexualities is damning to a lot of us.
For instance: My grandparents who choose to just skim the top of anything the news spews at them only see me now as trans being a sexual thing because hey, the T follows right in line after LGB.
This obviously is not correct but you'd be surprised how much of the general population all think the same thing.
And when they see trans as being a sexuality, they start thinking of all the squirmy and uncomfortable ways trans and their genitals work.
And soon after, come the horrid and down right sexual harassment questions about what's in our pants.
The general population pretty much still think gender/sexuality is the same. Don't believe me? Stop 10 random strangers on the street and ask them.
I have other qualms with the LGB community as well, mainly being the older riders in the lines all think the same way the 10 random strangers on the street do too.
I can't tell you how many times I've had gay men come up to me and start talking about how it's nice I'm a cross dresser, or ask me how I grew a beard since I must identify as a butch lesbian and ask how other Ls are attracted to that.
And don't get me started on the guy who learned I was trans and flat out said, "Good luck with that. All I'm here for is to get my marriage equality."
Or here's a fun one. My old manager who was a very open gay man, who when he found out I was pansexual, got extremely angry and told me I was greedy and needed to pick a side.
It's upsetting to me because I always went against the saying, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks". We're human, we can learn if we want to no matter what age we are. But repeatedly I am shown that is not a true standing, especially among all the older LG community members.
I can see why the T is starting to separate. It's also true that it's going to hurt us in the long run because the LGBT movement is a great force and resource for us to get our feet held to the ground. But by doing so, all I see is more confusion and walking on egg shells just to appease people.
Quote from: Hex on October 21, 2014, 01:59:49 PM
The only separation I would like to see is it being stated that gender doesn't play a role in sexuality and lumping the T with the 3 sexualities is damning to a lot of us.
Thank you! That's all I was saying.
My word, I wasn't anticipating this response. I believe I had underestimated the activity of this form. It is going to take time for me to digest all this information. I thank you all for sharing your opinions, and I feel honored I could spur this kind of response.
I think what provoked me to create this new topic is that I was so inspired by the revolvers of Stonewall, their diversity, and how they were fight against multiple forms of oppression. Perhaps it's simply that the terminology has changed since then. For example, Sylvia Riviera identified as a drag queen but perhaps she would have used the word trans woman if it was more pervasive during her time period. I am just worried that that is rebel spirit being lost by our community, resulting in the increased exclusion of certain individuals who do not fit the finely engineered image of what we want to present to the mainstream, and creating hegemony amongst our ranks that will ultimately only serve a handful of us.
Once again, I thank you.
I'm a post op female but I've thought like this all along: traditional gender roles are a given, and a positive thing. I want to be a housewife (already have experience on that part) and if I do work, I want to work in a female profession with no men. This isn't because I don't like men,I love men!.I just don't want to work with men but I can as long as they act like men. I prefer traditional female professions anyway. Cooking, cleaning, selling flowers, working at a cafe, being a waitress...
The day gender roles die and there are no GIRL CLOTHES and GUY CLOTHES Is the day I move to a place where they still exist...or move out of this planet or into a cave/cabin in the woods with my husband... or die. That's how much I cherish gender roles. Not consciously.(except when forced to think about it like now) but subconsciously as one of the things that give our societies and marriages stability and structure.I'm bisexual, by the way. The kind who likes to date guys and have sex with girls.
According to you,I (and my values) belong under this "umbrella" but beyond this site I don't associate with anyone/any communities because I don't actually fit in. I don't need to or want to, either!
There's no unity because we're all different people and actually think in completely different ways. You just probably don't realize it until yup encounter someone like me.
I never rejected traditional gender roles, I was just born in the wrong role. I've seen so many good things come out of traditional gender roles and so few bad things that I can't understand why anyone would be against them. The roles aren't the problem, switchingfrom one to another is, if anything.
Edge: of course not. He's a man working a female job. You seem to be agreeing that men shouldn't work female jobs by trying to remove the gender from the occupation. Is it that shameful for a man to work in a female job? You tell me.
Quote from: onescaredquestion on October 22, 2014, 07:05:51 PM
Edge: of course not. He's a man working a female job. You seem to be agreeing that men shouldn't work female jobs by trying to remove the gender from the occupation. Is it that shameful for a man to work in a female job? You tell me.
Heck no! It's NOT a female job. It's just a job that anyone of any gender can have.
I repeat: I am violently opposed to gender roles.
Quote from: Edge on October 22, 2014, 07:26:55 PM
Heck no! It's NOT a female job. It's just a job that anyone of any gender can have.
I repeat: I am violently opposed to gender roles.
I'm violently opposed to removing them/not abiding by them. It's dishonest. I doing think we should talk to each other. (I hate conflict)
I vehemently believe being in the umbrella of L and G and B and T. During the past year, I've personally met more trans and bi and gay and androgenous people than I've ever met in years past. We do share a struggle, and listening to some stories from some folks, I think being part of a bigger picture can only help our trans cause. I don't believe it has anything to do with "sex", as you don't have to have sex to know you're gay or bi or trans from an early age.
lgbt is a dysfunctional umbrella. still not one i'd want to rip apart quite yet though.
i'm wondering about why we're still calling ourselves "trans*".
gay men call themselves gay because it's much more fun to be gay that the rather medical term "homosexual".
lesbian women call themselves lesbian because they aren't men. identifying as gay really was problematic for many in the past.
bi- and pansexual people are discriminated against by most monosexual people. hetero- or homosexual doesn't make a difference, or maybe the hetero or nicer.
transgender people are a whole bunch of people who often don't have anything in common at all, except... well, i can't formulate one single exception, so it really does seem we don't have any one single trait in common.
lgbt is way more than four groups, there may even be over a hundred, or a thousand different identities.
and there's internal strife and discrimination. going in all possible directions, though the fewer there are in a subgroup, the more easy they are to discriminate against.
the umbrella shall still not be ripped apart.
instead we should realize and accept the vast diversity, and recognize each other's right to exist.
then we can support each other's fights for basic human rights, as well as civil rights and other causes that will improve people's quality of life.
Quote from: onescaredquestion on October 22, 2014, 08:05:25 PM
I'm violently opposed to removing them/not abiding by them. It's dishonest. I doing think we should talk to each other. (I hate conflict)
i expressively refuse to abide by any gender roles. it would be dishonest of me to pretend i'm a gender that i am not.
but, i do support your individual right to take on any gender role you want.
i also do not believe that abolishing gender roles will make frilly feminine clothing disappear. it will only allow more men to wear them if they want to.
(cooking is a male profession by the way, as are cleaning and working at a cafe. waitress is decidedly female though, for grammar reasons)
I feel like by arguing about this subject we are abjectly proving what the OP was trying to say: We can't get along, can we? This is the problem, right here: Instead of getting under one banner, trying to make things better for one another, we spend our time arguing. I'm as guilty of it as anyone else. But...ohhh dear. We are royally screwed, aren't we?
i was never screwed by royalty.
this discussion only shows our diversity and very different needs.
diversity does not mean that we can't gather for one specific cause.
the umbrella is still useful when it's needed.
i'm convinced that most people here would stand up for my rights just the same as i would stand up for theirs.
Quote from: Edge on October 22, 2014, 07:26:55 PM
Heck no! It's NOT a female job. It's just a job that anyone of any gender can have.
I repeat: I am violently opposed to gender roles.
Quote from: onescaredquestion on October 22, 2014, 08:05:25 PM
I'm violently opposed to removing them/not abiding by them. It's dishonest. I doing think we should talk to each other. (I hate conflict)
There are more than two sides to this, you know.
I'm "violently" opposed to coercing people into abiding by gender roles (or any other roles, other than the role of "decent human being.")
But if someone is happy conforming to some role, in whole or in part (and they're not hurting anyone), who am I to tell them they're wrong? Just as long as they don't demand that I do likewise. It's the "you have to live your life in a way that fits my preconceptions so I won't have to suffer the pain of being aware of alternatives" attitude that I mind.
I never once said I have a problem with people living the way they want to. I just have a problem with saying they're living that way because they're male or female. To use the day care example, someone of any gender should be able to work a day care if they want to and are qualified.
Don't put words in my mouth.
i know a guy who's currently really happy working at the local nursing home.
i, being much more of a woman than he will ever be, can't imagine ever working in a place like that.
i don't even change baby diapers unless i have to.
female job? i think not.
Thank you all this is my first post I'm this community and I love all the things we are saying here all I know is I want to not be afraid to go out of my own house for fear of discrimination and I want to help I'm the fight as long as we are hated for being different we are all the same and we all need to hold hands be unified and face down the haters on the playground as a unified group