This thread doesn't have much point, honestly.. But almost 2 weeks ago I was texting my sister, and she said something that has been bothering me ever since. :(
This is what she said, word for word and without context:
QuoteThere's even a girl like you that wants to be a guy. We address her as a guy just as she wants. Dresses like a guy. We call her by her male name. She binds her chest so you can't see her boobs.
To clear things up a bit: I've "come out" a few times, but the paranoia and frustration was always too much for me, and the one time I did ask my family (parents and my sister) to use male pronouns and a "boys name" I picked out, I ran back into the closet that same day because I was getting frustrated with having to correct them, and them never once getting my name+pronouns right (I was just being impatient, I know, but it still stung more when they called me "she" then than it did prior to my request). So she knows I'm trans, but still calls me her "sister", by my "girl" name, and uses female pronouns because of the last time I came out I told her and my parents "nevermind!".
That said, all that misgendering made me worry, plus made me all the more afraid to "try again". I'm now paranoid that even when someone gets my name and pronouns right, that they only use them when I'm present. That they don't
really see me as a man. That to others I'm just, to quote my sister:
"a girl that wants to be a guy".
Sure, being gendered correctly is better than being told "No. You're a woman and you'll always be a woman. I refuse to call you He".. But it's still extremely important to me to be taken
seriously.
Does anyone else worry about these things? :( That even when someone uses the correct pronouns+name, they aren't really seeing you as your gender? I kind of feel like I'm alone in this and that I'm just being overly sensitive.. idk.
Yes, I worry about this especially since when I suspect it's happening, I turn out to be right.
A gay guy I knew pretended to be a trans ally, calls me Victor, and uses the right pronouns. Then he started accusing the trans group of things we're innocent of and claimed that trans men weren't real men.
One of my friends met me as Victor and uses male pronouns. He also said a few times while we hung out that he and his wife have trouble remembering I'm a guy, that he calls me "dude" and "bro" so much to remind himself, and then compared me knowing what it's like to be a guy to him knowing what it's like to be something he's not.
I'm worried about my boyfriend doing the same thing because he met me as Victor, but has slipped up and called me "she," slipped up and called trans women "trans men," and the other day told me that he doesn't think he has to gender people correctly unless they're in the process of transitioning or have transitioned. So yeah. The first he says were just slips, but I wonder if they reveal what he actually thinks.
Quote from: Edge on October 20, 2014, 10:31:34 PM
the other day told me that he doesn't think he has to gender people correctly unless they're in the process of transitioning or have transitioned. So yeah. The first he says were just slips, but I wonder if they reveal what he actually thinks.
I think that last bit in particular is very revealing about what he thinks.
When I address someone to identify me as male, I do want them to take me seriously, not just to my face but also when I'm not there.
I have a friend who I've come out to as a transman, but she doesn't really make me feel like she's making much of an effort to support me.
(I'm pretty sure when she refers to me when I'm not there, she uses female pronouns, but that's just because of her lack of understanding
in trans issues and also her personal transphobia that I do feel from her at times.)
I'm beginning to not care anymore, though. I'm working my way up to coming out to everyone (especially at school), because I just can't take being misgendered anymore. It's getting really tiring.
And don't feel so bad, I'm overly sensitive, too, but I'm working on it.
I hope everything turns out well for you (and me). Us men gotta stay strong.
Quote from: Mitchell the Deathbell on October 20, 2014, 10:43:48 PM
When I address someone to identify me as male, I do want them to take me seriously, not just to my face but also when I'm not there.
I have a friend who I've come out to as a transman, but she doesn't really make me feel like she's making much of an effort to support me.
(I'm pretty sure when she refers to me when I'm not there, she uses female pronouns, but that's just because of her lack of understanding
in trans issues and also her personal transphobia that I do feel from her at times.)
I'm beginning to not care anymore, though. I'm working my way up to coming out to everyone (especially at school), because I just can't take being misgendered anymore. It's getting really tiring.
And don't feel so bad, I'm overly sensitive, too, but I'm working on it.
I hope everything turns out well for you (and me). Us men gotta stay strong.
I hope I reach that point soon, haha. :P Leaving the closet only to go back in again is becoming really exhausting.
Quote from: Edge on October 20, 2014, 10:31:34 PM
Yes, I worry about this especially since when I suspect it's happening, I turn out to be right.
A gay guy I knew pretended to be a trans ally, calls me Victor, and uses the right pronouns. Then he started accusing the trans group of things we're innocent of and claimed that trans men weren't real men.
One of my friends met me as Victor and uses male pronouns. He also said a few times while we hung out that he and his wife have trouble remembering I'm a guy, that he calls me "dude" and "bro" so much to remind himself, and then compared me knowing what it's like to be a guy to him knowing what it's like to be something he's not.
I'm worried about my boyfriend doing the same thing because he met me as Victor, but has slipped up and called me "she," slipped up and called trans women "trans men," and the other day told me that he doesn't think he has to gender people correctly unless they're in the process of transitioning or have transitioned. So yeah. The first he says were just slips, but I wonder if they reveal what he actually thinks.
Ouch. :( I hope he's just ignorant, but I dunno. You would think that if you're dating someone who is trans - and knew beforehand - you wouldn't have trouble with misgendering that person. Not to mention his beliefs on using the right pronouns are worrisome..
As for your experience with the gay man.. experiences like those are why I'm afraid that even if someone is my friend, if I get on their bad side their "true colors" will show and they reveal that they've never taken me seriously to begin with.
Yeah, I'm really paranoid about this. Then again, I'm paranoid that my friends and family are humouring me about a lot of other things. I've overheard my housemates refer to me with female pronouns more than once, and it's been behind my back. Thin walls and such.
I know that it's going to take a while for everyone to get used to referring to me as 'he'. I'm hoping that after my surgery it'll be easier. Until then, I'm going to be like Mandark from Dexter's Laboratory; whenever people would call him Susan, he'd bitterly mutter "Mandark". Only I'll try not to be too bitter.
My old therapist humored me. That's why he's my OLD therapist.
"she wants to be a man"
I don't think your sister understands as well as she thinks she does. You (and that other transguy) aren't a woman who wants to be a man, you are a man NOW. You are a man with an unfortunate condition in which female hormones course through your body and make you appear (and maybe behave) typically female. She needs to hear that.
I'm finding that it's common for FTMs to not be taken seriously. In a "oh how cute, you want to be a man" or "silly girl, you're too feminine" kind of way. Is my perception just skewed, or is this really a thing, guys?
Quote from: Amadeus on October 20, 2014, 11:43:21 PM
Yeah, I'm really paranoid about this. Then again, I'm paranoid that my friends and family are humouring me about a lot of other things. I've overheard my housemates refer to me with female pronouns more than once, and it's been behind my back. Thin walls and such.
I know that it's going to take a while for everyone to get used to referring to me as 'he'. I'm hoping that after my surgery it'll be easier. Until then, I'm going to be like Mandark from Dexter's Laboratory; whenever people would call him Susan, he'd bitterly mutter "Mandark". Only I'll try not to be too bitter.
Yeah. I understand that it would take time to adjust if you've known someone before they came out/started transitioning (sometimes I forget that my sisters last name has changed even though she's been married for like 2 years haha), but strangers or people who met me as a guy? That'll really sting. (I'd probably start obsessing over "passing" and try to force myself to be more masculine just so I won't get misgendered so often.. or just go back into the closet for the 100th time)
And aww, Dexter's Lab.. I haven't seen that show in ages. :laugh: (but maybe that's because I don't watch TV anymore hahaha)
Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on October 20, 2014, 11:48:33 PM
My old therapist humored me. That's why he's my OLD therapist.
"she wants to be a man"
I don't think your sister understands as well as she thinks she does. You (and that other transguy) aren't a woman who wants to be a man, you are a man NOW. You are a man with an unfortunate condition in which female hormones course through your body and make you appear (and maybe behave) typically female. She needs to hear that.
I'm finding that it's common for FTMs to not be taken seriously. In a "oh how cute, you want to be a man" or "silly girl, you're too feminine" kind of way. Is my perception just skewed, or is this really a thing, guys?
Yeah. :-\ I wanted to say "Well you obviously aren't taking him seriously if you refer to him as a woman when he's not around", but I went easy on her and said "Well you obviously have some work to do, pronoun wise. :P He's a he, silly."
And it does seem to be common, from my experience.. My Dad - despite being "willing" to use male pronouns and my chosen name that one time because "he wants me to be happy" (even though he never got it right) - admitted to thinking that I'm just confused because I was born premature, because he "heard somewhere that babies who were born premature can have identity problems".
That said, trans women aren't taken seriously, either (they seem to get more violent responses), but yeah. Trans guys seem to get more patronizing responses.
Quote from: littleredrobinhood on October 21, 2014, 12:00:30 AM
That said, trans women aren't taken seriously, either (they seem to get more violent responses), but yeah. Trans guys seem to get more patronizing responses.
Yeah, that was what I meant to say. Transwomen seem to get more hostile responses, transmen seem to get more patronizing ones.
I think requesting pronoun changes before physical changes are apparent, make it much more difficult for others. I preferred to let it be odd and uncomfortable for them to not use the correct ones and then change (mostly) on their own. It is difficult to live through that period but, it is shorter for us than for transwomen.
I've sort of accepted that people will think of you whatever they want and the only way to maybe change that is to just be yourself and let them see that (doesn't always work). I expect people to treat me respectfully by at least trying to get my pronouns and name right. I'll correct people on that.
I kind of think: you can think what you want but if you don't respect my identity in your thoughts keep it there. As long as people use the right pronouns and don't say things like 'you want to be a man' in my presence, I'm okay. I'll react to people saying disrespectfull things (about me and others) but I know that often on their inside they will stick to their ignorance. It's not my job to change that (although I will try by being me) and it doesn't reflect on my identity or it's validity.
It's not always easy to think this way though, sometimes it does get me down. But I try.
Quote from: NathanielM on October 21, 2014, 01:24:51 AM
I've sort of accepted that people will think of you whatever they want and the only way to maybe change that is to just be yourself and let them see that (doesn't always work). I expect people to treat me respectfully by at least trying to get my pronouns and name right. I'll correct people on that.
I kind of think: you can think what you want but if you don't respect my identity in your thoughts keep it there. As long as people use the right pronouns and don't say things like 'you want to be a man' in my presence, I'm okay. I'll react to people saying disrespectfull things (about me and others) but I know that often on their inside they will stick to their ignorance. It's not my job to change that (although I will try by being me) and it doesn't reflect on my identity or it's validity.
It's not always easy to think this way though, sometimes it does get me down. But I try.
Unfortunately, "myself" doesn't seem the slightest bit "male" due to how feminine I speak/act, and the things I like. So being myself just results in being gendered as female. :( (hopefully the new haircut I'll be getting will help with that? lol)
I do think I would be bothered by it less if they kept it to themselves, but the problem isn't so much keeping their opinion from
me as it is them keeping their opinion from
other people.
Like, if they said it to my face, I could correct them. But if they spread lies and tell other people I'm "a girl that wants to be a guy", as well using females pronouns when I'm not present? I can't do anything to prevent that, and it's really annoying because when people spread that, it just means more and more people will think I'm "confused", and the more correcting I'll have to do.
Quote from: LordKAT on October 21, 2014, 01:01:09 AM
I think requesting pronoun changes before physical changes are apparent, make it much more difficult for others. I preferred to let it be odd and uncomfortable for them to not use the correct ones and then change (mostly) on their own. It is difficult to live through that period but, it is shorter for us than for transwomen.
I would agree with the above. If they aren't "seeing it" with physical changes or at minimum full male garb and hair, it can be harder for people. We are raised to read social cues as male or female and it is hard to move out of that. Even well meaning people have a hard time seeing us as our new gender even WITH physical changes (those who have known us for a long time, especially). It is hard to make the "switch over". It takes time. Try to not think about what they are thinking and just be pleased when they get the name/pronouns right. I think it is about people's "intent". Are they doing it on purpose, or is it internalized transphobia at work that our society made sure we absorbed? It is hard to change our way of thinking about what we
thought we knew (sex=gender). Remember that people haven't even considered that one's genitals does not define who they are. It takes time for people to wrap their mind around it and see it differently.
I correct people when they screw up gendering me or anyone else (cis or trans) in my presence. And, of course I want to be taken seriously. But it's impossible to control other people's thoughts or private conversations, and not reasonable to try. This is a big part of why I avoid disclosure as much as feasible. People who've only ever known me as me don't screw it up and I can be sure they aren't "humoring" me, since strangers gender me correctly.
On one side of things, the respectful thing to do is make an effort to gender someone correctly regardless of appearance, once they've clearly stated their gender.
On the other side, social cues for gendering are deeply ingrained and it's simply not realistic to expect most people to quickly and always get someone's gender right when every social cue available is misleading them. At the local trans support group, even other trans people slip up gendering someone when they are not doing anything at all to "present"/socially cue their actual gender. Trans women will sometimes accidentally "he" another trans women when she's sporting a beard and masculine clothing. On the other hand I've never seen a trans woman at the group get misgendered if she's shaven and wearing a dress, regardless of whether she's on HRT yet, has a deep voice, etc. Social cues make a difference.
Gendering is a form of social communication. Communication is not one-way.
Now, it says more about the person doing the mis-gendering, when someone is clearly presenting their gender. It says they're ignorant. If it's not willful ignorance, polite and calm education can help. If it is willful ignorance, you can certainly try to educate them anyway, but sometimes it's best to avoid someone.
I've been on T for a year now. I was presenting as male for a year before that (complete with short hair that I hated). I still get misgendered all the time and the people who I suspect are humoring (and who I am mad at for it) met me as me.
I've had a lot of people humour me only to find out that they were talking about me behind my back. Ultimately I cut all these people out of my life, most of them ended up feeling guilty after but I didn't care.
Quote from: Edge on October 21, 2014, 01:10:51 PM
I've been on T for a year now. I was presenting as male for a year before that (complete with short hair that I hated). I still get misgendered all the time and the people who I suspect are humoring (and who I am mad at for it) met me as me.
Sorry you are experiencing that. It sounds like you're already doing what you can. IMO within a year or two, barring some kind of memory loss issues that is a generous time frame for someone to get it in their head. Especially if they had no pre-transition preconceptions. If they're still screwing it up with no hint of progress, that's on them.
I definitely get this sense as well.
--Jay
Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on October 21, 2014, 12:21:16 AM
Yeah, that was what I meant to say. Transwomen seem to get more hostile responses, transmen seem to get more patronizing ones.
I definitely agree on the hostility and patronising toward trans people. It's like both genders are exclusive clubs, but instead of paying a fee to get in, your name just gets put down at birth. You can't switch clubs. If you're in the Girls' Club and want to join the Boys' Club, they laugh at you. You're inferior, even though you look, sound, and behave like a man. You may even be stronger than a lot of the other boys. You could prove your masculinity for days on end and they'd still pat you on the head and say, "That's cute. Now run along and make me a sandwich."
But good God, to be a transwoman? I imagine blokes would be thinking, "He wants to join the Girls' Club? They're inferior! They're weak and stupid and, and...they're girls, for ->-bleeped-<-'s sake! No one wants to be a girl! Frank used to be so macho, so manly. Wait a minute...if he's so butch and yet he still wants to be a woman...what does that say about me? Could I be just as prone to this...queerness? Sh*t. This is threatening my masculinity. If my masculinity is threatened, then another male will find a way to dominate me. If he dominates me, then I could lose my mating privileges. This will not do. I must assert myself by beating the living sh*t out of Frank. Yes. That will make me look like a hard-case mofo!"
Whereas with women, it's, "You're just a pervert who wants to spy on women, ogle our bodies, then rape us in our bathrooms. Then you'll go brag to the boys about what you did and set back the feminist movement by another twenty years. Yeah. No. ->-bleeped-<- you! Get out of our bathroom, you freak!" *mace*
Ugh. I'm so glad I live in this neighbourhood. No one here gives two sh*ts about gender. It's all about the rainbows and unicorns.
I think one way at looking at others reactions to you is this. First off think about this did you magically think yourself as trans or did that take you some time to figure out? My guess is the later. Therefor for one who doesn't understand it at all it might take them longer until of course you are passing physically and perhaps your mannerisms as well. For someone who is close friend/family they also may have a huge resistance to change and or fear of it may have to bear with them to internalize they change you are putting at them.
That being said some you will never convince. Yes it would be great if we could just throw a switch here and there but fact is we have to live with at least for a while a switch that is stuck in the middle until that switch is on the light side rather then the dark side. Patience and understanding on both parties is the key unfortunately some lack one or both.
As I have not publicly presented my self as target gender easy for me to say but I can also see the point of the matter. It wont or isn't easy but in time if they really are a friend or family member that actually cares about you they will adapt as you adapt.
May the light side flip sooner then later:) Don't forget to lightly oil the switch heavy oiling will may cause problems:)
I can think of one or two people who are just humouring me, but they aren't people I respect so I don't give a toss.
For me, initially, esp. when I came out and started passing (when I asked for name change/pronouns etc) I did feel like people were just humoring me, playing along in some silly game. It was weird. But now that I'm almost 7 years on T, I no longer feel humored. Occ I still hear a coworker misgender me, but they are usually ones I don't work with often. I usually ignore it, because they are the ones that will seem stupid.
But yeah, early transition is awkward for a lot of reasons. I'm sure, though, my sister still thinks of me as a girl pretending to be male, though she hasn't yet said that to my face. but then, she never liked me much anyway.
Jay
nope. I also didn't come out to almost anyone pre-T. I kind of let the changes speak for themselves. At some point people just switched. I never asked anyone to specifically. In fact my family asked if I wanted them to switch and I just said that they should whenever it came naturally to them. Sometimes my dad still calls my sister and I "The girls." I don't let it get to me. He'd been using that title for us for 20 years before I transitioned. Both of my parents are super supportive. Whats in a word? I know who I am. Really I tried to let the transition happen as naturally as I could. I never minded my female name, but many of the people I knew eventually just felt weird calling me a female name and switched to the male... maybe they thought I cared? I have a friend or two that still call me my old name. I like it. They've asked if it bothers me. It really doesn't. I didn't even want to change my name to begin with, but my mom convinced me it was a good idea. I'm glad I did now. Its a sweet name, and it probably makes things like getting jobs easier.
My transition was more for me than anyone else. Sure, its nice to be called he or sir without question and to be judged/held to male clothing standards rather than female, but I transitioned to feel more comfortable in my own skin. Gendered words are just words to me.
It also sounds kind of harsh to say, but people also just don't have the time to remember to call you male when they read you as female. It'd be nice if they did, but they see a person their brains tell them the person is female based on every other experience they've ever had in their lives (we start socially gendering people really really young) and they say she or her because that is what slips out of their brains.
Its like that experiment where you look at the names of colors on notecards that are written in other colors. Sometimes its hard to make the connection. BLUE ORANGE YELLOW GREEN PURPLE RED You're supposed to name the color the word is written in, but you end up reading the word instead (or visa versa). Sometimes people aren't trying to be douchey. Its just what they see you as. Sometimes that truly sucks, but you can only expect so much out of the people around you no matter how supportive they try to be. Like the guy who said he has trouble remembering someone is a dude... Its not his fault his brain says female when he is with you. Its programmed in. He's obviously trying to be supportive by saying dude and bro a lot to remind himself, but its hard to switch something so deeply ingrained in us.
That being said some people are just ignorant douchebags. They'll mock the kid with downs syndrome or in a wheelchair. Some people just suck. I wish they didn't, but I definitely know of a few people who have probably said, or at least thought, some ->-bleeped-<- about me. I don't care because I'm more comfortable with me now. Thats all I care about.
I might've gotten off topic there, but I think its all somewhat relevant... Long story short though: The people who you think are humoring you are probably just trying their best to not offend you. They don't understand being trans. They're not experienced or in any way knowledgeable on trans issues. You're probably the only trans person they've ever met. To them you are a girl who wants to be a boy. They don't understand how thats any different from someone being a boy who was born in a female body (and really, other than semantics, is it actually any different?). Body and gender to them have always been synonymous.
Honestly, if a bearded guy tells me his name is Anna and I should call him"she", I run. It doesn't matter if he turns out to be trans, I just can't accept that. My brain doesn't bend that way. I never asked/expected people to call me differently until I started 24/7 and passed. I'm glad if your brain bends that way. Mine doesn't.
It's different if you do your best and kinda almost pass most of the time. But otherwise I'll just avoid you, for your own good, because honestly... I WOULD just be humoring you. I
I'd be lying. So it's better you find people who can do it for you without lying.
In other words, there's a difference between ACCEPTING someone and being able to accommodate their wishes
I, OTOH, am perfectly cool calling that gal Anna. And if you want I can use the pronoun "they" fairly consistently. See MY brain does bend this way. BUT did I grow up being that way? Absolutely not. Did I even know you could be that way? No I did not. Did I even know about it 5 years ago? No I didn't. But gender identity is independent of sex assigned at birth and gender presentation (or how you look). This is all called learning. And you can learn if you are 7, 17, or 70 (or refuse to learn at those ages).
Now I agree that it is 100% easier to correctly gender a person if they "pass" as that gender. It's easier for me as well.
Now obviously we are not talking about a person who is dressing all girly girl and wants you to call him Bruce and "he". And this is a sister we are talking about and not a buddy. And no one has to hang out with someone they don't feel comfortable. OF course there is no law that siblings are close either. Sometimes your chosen family is more your family than your family. Always has been so for me.
--Jay
Quote from: onescaredquestion on October 22, 2014, 10:20:50 PM
Honestly, if a bearded guy tells me his name is Anna and I should call him"she", I run. It doesn't matter if he turns out to be trans, I just can't accept that. My brain doesn't bend that way. I never asked/expected people to call me differently until I started 24/7 and passed. I'm glad if your brain bends that way. Mine doesn't.
It's different if you do your best and kinda almost pass most of the time. But otherwise I'll just avoid you, for your own good, because honestly... I WOULD just be humoring you. I
I'd be lying. So it's better you find people who can do it for you without lying.
In other words, there's a difference between ACCEPTING someone and being able to accommodate their wishes
I worry about that kind of thing, too. I'm probably one of the most feminine people on my male-identified trans support group. Last week someone said to me, "so, you're female-identified, right?" and it kind of freaked me out until I did mental gymnastics to make myself believe that the question meant I was passing as a bio-male trans woman. But yeah, even there I worry that my acceptance to the boys' club is somehow conditional or just humoring me in some way, like they're all thinking "oh, this kid has no idea what he's doing; he's not really even a trans guy."
Most of that is probably in my head. When I got into selective choirs in high school I always worried that they only accepted me to make me feel good about myself and I didn't actually have it in me (talent, skill, or in the current case, manliness).
But some people will get frustrated by change and/or won't be able to make the switch in their heads. With people you know pre-transition, it is entirely possible that humoring you is the best response you can hope for... but hopefully the switch can eventually be made.
I know I have had a hard time correctly gendering pre-transition trans people whose expression closely aligns with their assigned gender. I think the only difference between that and humoring is that I truly feel bad every time I realize I've gotten it wrong.
Btw, Robin, the thing your sister said was totally messed up, but definitely looks a lot more like ignorance than not caring. I hope that you will find within you the energy to step back out of the closet and into the classroom, because the only cure for that kind of benign ignorance is education. Also maybe her new co-worker (or whoever he is) will be able to help her along in that process. Then you might at least have one family member who is not just humoring you.
I think it's unfair that you assume everyone's brain can"learn" it as easily. There's a huge difference between knowing something and an instinctive reaction to something, and also perceiving something.
Learning to write perfect Chinese is a lot easier task in my opinion than learning to see/perceive that guy as the girl Anna, even if I KNOW it's not "really" a "guy". So I can learn perfect Chinese in a year or two, you can learn to see things differently in that time. I think our brains are different enough that there's nothing where you can really say "it's the same for everyone", but you're free to disagree.
I try to get rid of that person nicely and smoothly out of consideration.for them and myself. I don't think that's wrong.
Quote from: aleon515 on October 22, 2014, 10:37:43 PM
I, OTOH, am perfectly cool calling that gal Anna. And if you want I can use the pronoun "they" fairly consistently. See MY brain does bend this way. BUT did I grow up being that way? Absolutely not. Did I even know you could be that way? No I did not. Did I even know about it 5 years ago? No I didn't. But gender identity is independent of sex assigned at birth and gender presentation (or how you look). This is all called learning. And you can learn if you are 7, 17, or 70 (or refuse to learn at those ages).
Now I agree that it is 100% easier to correctly gender a person if they "pass" as that gender. It's easier for me as well.
Now obviously we are not talking about a person who is dressing all girly girl and wants you to call him Bruce and "he". And this is a sister we are talking about and not a buddy. And no one has to hang out with someone they don't feel comfortable. OF course there is no law that siblings are close either. Sometimes your chosen family is more your family than your family. Always has been so for me.
--Jay
It's saddening to hear that even other trans people can be stubborn and refuse to even talk to you unless you "pass"...
I truly hope you're in a minority in that, onescaredquestion, because if you're not, I don't think I could ever come out again. I wouldn't be able to handle going to a support group and being avoided by the people there, just because they don't want to have to put in the effort to use the correct name and pronouns.
Slip ups can sting, yes. But while they hurt, they're still much less painful than someone just shrugging their shoulders and saying "Don't be mad at me, it's not my fault you don't pass."
Quote from: littleredrobinhood on October 23, 2014, 12:15:11 AM
It's saddening to hear that even other trans people can be stubborn and refuse to even talk to you unless you "pass"...
I truly hope you're in a minority in that, onescaredquestion, because if you're not, I don't think I could ever come out again. I wouldn't be able to handle going to a support group and being avoided by the people there, just because they don't want to have to put in the effort to use the correct name and pronouns.
Slip ups can sting, yes. But while they hurt, they're still much less painful than someone just shrugging their shoulders and saying "Don't be mad at me, it's not my fault you don't pass."
You don't understand that not everyone wants a reminder they're a freak, and to SOME people, having a bearded masculine guy insisting on being called by a female is exactly that. I don't know when it became desirable and positive to be abnormal, but I didn't get the memo. I'm a girl who was born into a fairly androgynous male body. I fixed it. Now I'm a girl in a girl body. I have no problem being friends with girls in transition, but I don't even have guy friends, as in people who are guys and not trans. Why should I go out of my way to do something for a trans person that I won't even do for a non trans person? If you look distinctly like a guy, my mind perceives you as a guy even if the information part of my mind is telling "it's a girl, her name is Anna"
I can't do it.
I don't go to support groups and I'm not part of any communities. I told you,I wouldn't fit in. I see this as being considerate of people like you. I'm in a minority for sure, so please don't be afraid. You don't have to avoid anything because of me.
I don't refuse to talk to you.
I refuse to be a"friend" who constantly offends you or has a hard time not offending you. It doesn't have to be words, sometimes it's little gestures and tells that tell you what I'm really thinking.
Am I really a bad person for not wishing that kind of "friendship" on you, for sparing you from me and me from difficulties in dealing with you? If I am, then I accept that.
I actually thought of something else because of this. I don't always see it as 'humoring' either. You see I'm sure that a year ago when I started my parents and brother didn't see a guy when they talked to me. but they did care about me, so they tried.
Being trans is really hard to truly understand for most cispeople, I've noticed that by being very open. People ask questions and they do respect you and some of them will even step up for me and say 'no, you're just a guy it should be that simple'. But still mistakes slip in (my presentation is still fairly androgynous) and they don't 'get it'. But I understand that and I don't see it as humoring me when these people put in the effort to change their perception of me. Even if they can't do that and just make sure to correct themselves and respect me by using my pronouns I'm okay.
I do see it more as a positive thing, more as people making the effort to give me a base of respect than people humoring me. After all changing your thoughts about something so basic as gender is hard, it can be done! Absolutely, by everyone willing to try, but it's hard and it can be a long process. Especially if you haven't doubted our binary thinking before. And I think as often with learning, one of the steps is: thinking instinctively 'that's a dude' but then adding onto that 'no, she isn't, she's a lady' and then acting upon the second thing. I heard this quote somewhere and it seems to fit: the first thought is what you were taught, and the second is wat you are trying to be (something like it at least). You do have influence on your thoughts, they're yours after all.
I also don't have a problem calling a big burly bearded lady, her. You tell me you identify as a gender, I'll refer to you as that. I might mess up, but I want to give you the respect you deserve and try. Even if my perception is faulty at that moment and tells me she's a dude. I don't think that's humoring or lying, it's respect and caring.
i don't really see what people's problem is.
i don't even want to understand it.
much better to be the weird one who'll call people whatever they want to be no matter how they look, because gender has nothing to do with looks.
i could even change on a day to day basis, or as often as they tell me to.
my mom told me about this kid in her school who's come out to a few teachers as trans.
they're taking care of him, have talked to his parents. my mom even told him that it didn't surprise him at all that he was trans, since she even thought he was a boy the first time she saw him (which was perfectly correct of her to think), and that she thinks that everyone should get to be exactly who they want to be.
well, i'm an obvious exception that she doesn't even want to see. as well as my two younger brothers. she had no qualms telling my youngest brother how disgusting she found it that he'd shaved his chest just to see how he liked it. and has told me that she'd never be able to accept any of her kids being gay or trans.
but that was kind of off topic...
what i didn't like about how my mother talked about that kid in her school, was that she kept calling him a girl and using female pronouns when talking about him.
so i ask her, if she shouldn't start saying "he" when talking about him.
which triggered a whole lot of excuses, basically ending with "that has to be her own choice", and she even refused to see my point in how making that choice would be so much easier if she'd just give him the option at least.
i'm not really supposed to know about this kid. it's still very confidential and everything. but i do know that there have been meetings with the school nurse, and thus i've decided to talk to her about starting an lgbt support group. can't mention something i don't know, but i can most definitely show my support and make it known that i'm here if that kid wants someone slightly more like-minded to talk to.
What I'm responding to is that you seem almost angry that someone would expect that a sister or brother might try and connect with their own sibling as your gender. I'm not so worried that people take longer or shorter at learning, but unless you are severely impaired, which you don't appear to be, there is no reason that someone with the desire and attitude can learn. I have worked with children with severe learning deficits and I never considered any of them incapable of learning. I think most lack of learning like this, has more to do with desire and attitude. (Speaking a foreign language is a kind of poor analogy given that it is more a specific skill or aptitude/same with musical ability.)
It sounds in this case, that this fellow's sister is unwilling vs being unable.
To expect 100% passing before someone tries to be accepted as one's gender?... well glad that my friends WERE capable of learning this kind of thing despite being way older than you seem to be.
Slipping is something else. I would expect someone to miss pronouns or use a birth name especially in the same family.
Well all things being equal, I don't think it's "wrong" or indicative of being a "bad person".
--Jay
Quote from: onescaredquestion on October 22, 2014, 11:18:48 PM
I think it's unfair that you assume everyone's brain can"learn" it as easily. There's a huge difference between knowing something and an instinctive reaction to something, and also perceiving something.
Learning to write perfect Chinese is a lot easier task in my opinion than learning to see/perceive that guy as the girl Anna, even if I KNOW it's not "really" a "guy". So I can learn perfect Chinese in a year or two, you can learn to see things differently in that time. I think our brains are different enough that there's nothing where you can really say "it's the same for everyone", but you're free to disagree.
I try to get rid of that person nicely and smoothly out of consideration.for them and myself. I don't think that's wrong.