I see all these recent threads about surgery, but so few about training.
I probably will get surgery but I am interested in training so the surgery has something to work with.
I see some popular options - FYFV, CandiFLA, Kathe Perez are the ones that stand out.
I'm not so sure about CandiFLA's approach because it relies initially on falsetto. Falsetto makes my throat hurt. I can't do it for any length of time. But she sounds good.
I kind of like FYFV because Andrea is a transwoman and she sounds really really good, so whatever she's doing is probably working.
I also like Kathe Perez because of her professional credentials, but I see that she has a multipronged approach (as does Andrea).
I'm on a limited budget but it's not like I'm choosing between voice training and groceries, so I can probably splurge a little.
I do want my voice to pass.
What would you recommend and why?
I'll try to see if I can get some recordings up so you have an idea of what we're working with. I can actually do voice impressions of TV characters and many real people very well.
ImagineKate,
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 07, 2014, 11:35:54 AM
I see all these recent threads about surgery, but so few about training.
I probably will get surgery but I am interested in training so the surgery has something to work with.
I see some popular options - FYFV, CandiFLA, Kathe Perez are the ones that stand out.
I'm not so sure about CandiFLA's approach because it relies initially on falsetto. Falsetto makes my throat hurt. I can't do it for any length of time.
I kind of like FYFV because Andrea is a transwoman and she sounds really really good, so whatever she's doing is probably working.
I also like Kathe Perez because of her professional credentials, but I see that she has a multipronged approach (as does Andrea).
I'm on a limited budget but it's not like I'm choosing between voice training and groceries, so I can probably splurge a little.
I do want my voice to pass.
What would you recommend and why?
I'll try to see if I can get some recordings up so you have an idea of what we're working with. I can actually do voice impressions of TV characters and many real people very well.
I feel the same way you do. There are so many different options out there can be confusing and I'm not sure which way to turn. Thank you for posting this thread. I'm going to be watching it to see what other women suggest.
Hugs,
Melissa Ann
I might try Kathe's apps because they are relatively inexpensive compared to the other options. My therapist is also referring me to a voice therapist as well.
Voice is extremely important for me to pass. I feel that even if you don't look 100% passable, with a good female voice it just "clicks" for people so they gender you correctly.
Hi Girls
CandiFLA and Cathe Perez were both interesting to me, but I found success with a singing teacher who slowly helped me move my pitch upwards. A lot of exercises, mainly variations of scales over 2-3 octaves, that took me over into falsetto and back. I did this for about 3 months. The aim was never to get the kind of pitch that CandiFLA demonstrates, but rather a lowish pitch throaty female voice, with the example we used being the singer Diana Krall. Watch this video, from around minute 1:30.
As it happens, my voice is actually higher pitched than hers, but as people often point out, it's inflection - the singing that women do - that makes a voice feminine, together with a change to your word choice - how you say things. If you don't already have this, the best way is to listen to how women speak on the radio - Women's Hour on BBC radio being the example I used. Listen and repeat...
I was quite unsure about my voice until one night when a taxi driver told me how sensual it was, so perfection, whatever that means, is not necessary. It's good enough.
I now find that it has become my natural pitch, and it has become easier. Now it's there from the moment I wake up, with no effort required, and it takes effort to find my original voice.
Happy to help with any pointers you might need.
Hugs
Julia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8YJtGy-dCU
Well I'm trying the Deepstealth videos, you can find them for free on YT. It's only been a couple days so far so I can't really say how good the method is, but it does make sense to me and I can see that it should work:) At least I don't seem to have any trouble reaching 220hz, YAY! lol
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 07, 2014, 11:35:54 AM
I see all these recent threads about surgery, but so few about training.
I probably will get surgery but I am interested in training so the surgery has something to work with.
I see some popular options - FYFV, CandiFLA, Kathe Perez are the ones that stand out.
I'm not so sure about CandiFLA's approach because it relies initially on falsetto. Falsetto makes my throat hurt. I can't do it for any length of time. But she sounds good.
I kind of like FYFV because Andrea is a transwoman and she sounds really really good, so whatever she's doing is probably working.
I also like Kathe Perez because of her professional credentials, but I see that she has a multipronged approach (as does Andrea).
I'm on a limited budget but it's not like I'm choosing between voice training and groceries, so I can probably splurge a little.
I do want my voice to pass.
What would you recommend and why?
I'll try to see if I can get some recordings up so you have an idea of what we're working with. I can actually do voice impressions of TV characters and many real people very well.
I would try training first and avoid surgery if you can. Surgery for voice has a lot of risk (to your voice) and isn't a shortcut. You've heard my voice and my old voice wasn't that for off from yours. I average about 170 Hz (in conversation I'm going higher and lower, sing-song effect and not monotone) when speaking which is on the feminine side of gender ambiguous. Resonance plays a large part as well (sometimes larger than pitch.) Because my resonance is extremely good, I don't have an issue in person, but 50% I do on the phone for some reason. (The higher quality the phone the more I'm gendered female.)
Falsetto is more for finding and testing your limits and trying to find the sweet spot and it something you really only do on the beginning. I preferred trying to talk in a cartoon voice instead to use the higher frequencies of your vocal chords. It takes time, but even if you have surgery, you still have to train for resonance and practice.
I found singing to be the most helpful in practicing both pitch and resonance. One song I really like is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hnqOhuuP70
If you can hit all the notes with that song, your doing well. I has both feminine highs and lows and help you build up. The other thing that helped was with your throat and tongue muscle pulling up your adams apple. It's hard to speak with it all the way up, but pull it down just a bit and the resonance kicks in very nicely using a head voice instead of a chest voice. The YouTube videos you mentioned (FYFV, CandiFLA specifically) are also good. Another one I like is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a02_j7PGTPI
I pretty much used the technique she describes for my voice the I self-taught.
I just started taking an advance class by Christie Block at the New York Speech and Voice Lab to help make mine even better. (It's taken me a year to reach where I am now, but my voice was pretty passable at 4 months of practice, but I would tire easily. It took 6 months before I wouldn't tire easily.) Yesterday she tested me at averaging 170 Hz, but she thinks that she can get me to average at 190-195 Hz. I also think my height gives me some acceptance of a women with a little deeper voice than normal and even at 170Hz I haven't had anyone clock me in person with my voice. (I haven't been sir'd since March.) There is always room for improvement especially since no one can see how tall you are over the phone.
Thanks Sydney. Yes you do sound good. The only reason I'm considering surgery is because it will force me to use the female voice, permanently. But as I said I want something for it to work with and I realize it's not just a switch to flip.
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 08, 2014, 05:54:56 AM
Thanks Sydney. Yes you do sound good. The only reason I'm considering surgery is because it will force me to use the female voice, permanently. But as I said I want something for it to work with and I realize it's not just a switch to flip.
My voice therapist HIGHLY recommended against any sort of vocal surgery. After gaining my female voice through training, I agree it's not necessary. People think it's a short cut, they can pay some money and wake up sounding like a woman, that just isn't the case. Lots of risks (and I mean a LOT of risks) and best case, with no training you will sound like a guy with a higher pitched voice. Pitch is only a small part of sounding like a female, there are plenty of low pitched women whom no one would misgender.
And this isn't aimed at anyone so please don't take this personally: I do find it very odd that people are willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars for FFS and vocal surgeries etc., but feel that voice training should be free and/or aren't willing to spend any money or time on voice training therapy. I've seen so many videos of really pretty transgirls who 100% pass visually, but like a bad cliche, they start talking and they sound like a truck driver, wonder why they get clocked and are considering more facial surgery as a solution. I ended up spending about $1500 on private, in person, voice therapy sessions and it was by far the best investment into my transition. And this is probably 10% or less of what voice surgery would cost.
I ended up spending $600 to get a hormone letter, after I had been living full time for three years, was perfectly happy with my life and had no need for therapy, other than to get the stupid letter. Now THAT was a waste of money :P
Quote from: Sydney_NYC on November 07, 2014, 10:31:41 PM
The other thing that helped was with your throat and tongue muscle pulling up your adams apple. It's hard to speak with it all the way up, but pull it down just a bit and the resonance kicks in very nicely using a head voice instead of a chest voice.
This + 100. The other bonus from this is once you have trained your voice and it becomes your normal voice, your adams apple all but disappears.
Quote from: Stephe on November 08, 2014, 08:41:42 AM
My voice therapist HIGHLY recommended against any sort of vocal surgery. After gaining my female voice through training, I agree it's not necessary. People think it's a short cut, they can pay some money and wake up sounding like a woman, that just isn't the case. Lots of risks (and I mean a LOT of risks) and best case, with no training you will sound like a guy with a higher pitched voice. Pitch is only a small part of sounding like a female, there are plenty of low pitched women whom no one would misgender.
I think maybe your voice therapist is thinking of older surgeries. Yeson and Professionalvoice are in a totally different league, at least based on the reports of others here.
No, I don't think I will just go under the knife and wake up with a woman's voice. However, from what I've seen, most are extremely happy with the result. I can't deny myself that happiness. That said, I know those who have had surgeries have also had training, and this is the approach I want to take.
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 08, 2014, 09:58:00 AM
I think maybe your voice therapist is thinking of older surgeries. Yeson and Professionalvoice are in a totally different league, at least based on the reports of others here.
No, I don't think I will just go under the knife and wake up with a woman's voice. However, from what I've seen, most are extremely happy with the result. I can't deny myself that happiness. That said, I know those who have had surgeries have also had training, and this is the approach I want to take.
Kate, I don't know your voice, so I cannot say how much effort you might need. But if you could achieve a good enough voice with training, I really do recommend that you investigate this deeply before you conclude that you need to go under the knife. After a few surgeries now, I can say that all have consequences that may be less than desirable, and it starts to get darn expensive to edge towards our feminisation goals through elective surgery.
Of course I fully support your desire to reach whatever level of femininity you consider necessary, just go slowly sister.
With my very best wishes!
Julia
Quote from: Julia-Madrid on November 08, 2014, 11:05:06 AM
Kate, I don't know your voice, so I cannot say how much effort you might need. But if you could achieve a good enough voice with training, I really do recommend that you investigate this deeply before you conclude that you need to go under the knife. After a few surgeries now, I can say that all have consequences that may be less than desirable, and it starts to get darn expensive to edge towards our feminisation goals through elective surgery.
Of course I fully support your desire to reach whatever level of femininity you consider necessary, just go slowly sister.
With my very best wishes!
Julia
Absolutely Julia, and thank you!
I am planning long term. Surgery won't be until about a year or so, if I do get it. The stage I'm in now I'm planning everything so I can prepare financially and mentally.
This is the male voice I'm starting with.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1d5XGW0ddL7
It has a slight caribbean accent.
Quote from: Stephe on November 08, 2014, 08:46:39 AM
This + 100. The other bonus from this is once you have trained your voice and it becomes your normal voice, your adams apple all but disappears.
I don't have a visible adam's apple. At least I don't think so.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1368.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag176%2Fkimberlykatej%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FDC1E023D-9CE5-4215-A890-83C13DF4DAFB_zpsnwtub8nx.jpg&hash=155431da3608629063e05b6a93329aa0fb05a8bd) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/kimberlykatej/media/Mobile%20Uploads/DC1E023D-9CE5-4215-A890-83C13DF4DAFB_zpsnwtub8nx.jpg.html)
I think two major problems I have are resonance and a very nasal sounding voice.
Here is an attempt to sound higher.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1GW1DcAZV24
Quote from: Stephe on November 08, 2014, 08:41:42 AM
And this isn't aimed at anyone so please don't take this personally: I do find it very odd that people are willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars for FFS and vocal surgeries etc., but feel that voice training should be free and/or aren't willing to spend any money or time on voice training therapy. I've seen so many videos of really pretty transgirls who 100% pass visually, but like a bad cliche, they start talking and they sound like a truck driver, wonder why they get clocked and are considering more facial surgery as a solution. I ended up spending about $1500 on private, in person, voice therapy sessions and it was by far the best investment into my transition. And this is probably 10% or less of what voice surgery would cost.
I do agree with you up to a point. I definitely think that voice is a big factor in getting clocked. This is why I'm prioritizing it over FFS... I'm even prioritizing it over SRS, believe it or not.
However I don't believe that it is a waste of money to have either voice OR face surgery. The way I see it, practice and training gets you there, and surgery keeps you from slipping back.
And believe it or not there are trans girls who think hormones are a waste of time... it's really up to you what you want but I know I want a feminine, passable voice above all else. I've dreamed of it all my life.
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 08, 2014, 02:28:30 PM
I think two major problems I have are resonance and a very nasal sounding voice.
Here is an attempt to sound higher.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1GW1DcAZV24
That's a very good starting point. The nasal sounding means your using your head voice instead of you chest voice. If physically you pass very well, you won't have a problem with your voice.
One of the employees at one of my clients has a 20 year old cis-daughter who has an extremely natural deep voice, deeper than a lot of cis-men. If you heard her from the next room or on the phone, you would swear male (or maybe FTM) despite her resonance being on the feminine side. However when your looking at her and hearing her voice, you don't think male because the brain see female and voice becomes female.
Everyone has both masculine and feminine characteristics whether your a cis-woman, cis-man, transgender, etc. The gender that the person registers with more than 50% of those characteristics is what the person is going to register you as. Most people out there are going to register as one gender or the other and the last thing on there mind is if someone is transgender, it's just not on their radar unless they are looking for it. It's not just one thing, it's the whole picture that matters.
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 08, 2014, 01:45:13 PM
This is the male voice I'm starting with.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1d5XGW0ddL7
It has a slight caribbean accent.
Hiya Kate---- here's a reply to your recording:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0L2WapkYLNs
Hugs
Julia
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 08, 2014, 02:32:24 PM
I do agree with you up to a point. I definitely think that voice is a big factor in getting clocked. This is why I'm prioritizing it over FFS... I'm even prioritizing it over SRS, believe it or not.
However I don't believe that it is a waste of money to have either voice OR face surgery. The way I see it, practice and training gets you there, and surgery keeps you from slipping back.
I'm sorry but I simply have to disagree. Even if the surgery has zero risks, unless you are flush with cash, it seems like a bad priority to pick vocal surgery over other transition expenses for this perceived "slipping back", which I've never experienced. If you are living full time, you get plenty of practice daily just living. The only way I could see slipping back would be someone living part time trying to flip back and forth between a male and a female voice.
If you are going to spend some money, spend it on some personal -in RL- voice training and go as far as you can with that before you have your voice surgically altered. Don't just do a few online voice courses or watching fee youtube videos and assume that is as good as it will get. As someone else said, your voice isn't that far off now.
Quote from: Sydney_NYC on November 08, 2014, 10:47:05 PM
Most people out there are going to register as one gender or the other and the last thing on there mind is if someone is transgender, it's just not on their radar unless they are looking for it.
Unless you live in San Fransisco :P
I used CandiFLA. I found it hard to figure out, but once I did, everything that came out of my mouth sounded feminine.
Quote from: Sydney_NYC on November 08, 2014, 10:47:05 PM
One of the employees at one of my clients has a 20 year old cis-daughter who has an extremely natural deep voice, deeper than a lot of cis-men. If you heard her from the next room or on the phone, you would swear male (or maybe FTM) despite her resonance being on the feminine side. However when your looking at her and hearing her voice, you don't think male because the brain see female and voice becomes female.
In my case it is important that I sound unmistakeably female when people don't see me, such as on the telephone. This is why it is very important for me to get my voice down right. It is also important for me to just do this naturally without even thinking about it. I can probably accomplish this with training? Let's see if I can.
Stephe - may I ask you something baout your voice - I have not heard it yet, but did you analyze it before the training? What was your original pitch? I found that for people with an above average male pitch range (130-150 Hz) it seems to be a lot easier to just do it with training. Getting from there to 180+ seems to work fine. Those that are in the lower male range (100-130 Hz) originally seem to struggle more. I rarely heard of someone coming from that range saying that having a female voice without long term effort was well achieved. For me it was like that - I managed but the constant strain cost me voice health in the long run because I tried to push it up from my original 100-110 Hz voice :\
Just as with the face, it is with voice as well. There are always some ciswomen who have a few of the male markers - but usually those are only a few and are well compensated. Plus I know that for example Dr Kim does surgery as well on Ciswomen who feel their voice is annoying because they are misgendered on the phone. I think to rely on visual appearance is not the best idea. Again from my experience, my voice was like that - as long as I was visible, people gendered me correctly, in darkness or when people are standing behind me or on the phone, I was misgendered - and consequently once I was in sight people were looking VERY closely at my appearance - and I dont have the advantage that this is so perfect that it will eleiminate all doubt.
My feeling is that voice surgery alone cannot work. It HAS to be supplemented by voice training. So one needs the voice training in any case. if one is really happy after doing that, its fine, but I think if it still is hard to keep up, if it is straining too much or if it is still low enough to be annoying because of its ambiguity - I tend to think nowadays that a good voice surgery can be an option to make live easier.
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 09, 2014, 03:40:30 PM
In my case it is important that I sound unmistakeably female when people don't see me, such as on the telephone. This is why it is very important for me to get my voice down right. It is also important for me to just do this naturally without even thinking about it. I can probably accomplish this with training? Let's see if I can.
I totally understand. Doing it naturally, in a relaxed way, without straining, without conscious control and without slips - and not ambiguous and with the need to rely on other gender markers. A no-worry result, that is desireable - something you totally can forget about. I guess with enough training a lot can become habit, but if the habit is counteracting physiology, it may still not always work in the long run?
I will listen and maybe audio reply to the vocal part of the discussion later when I am at home ;)
Quote from: anjaq on November 10, 2014, 07:13:55 AM
My feeling is that voice surgery alone cannot work. It HAS to be supplemented by voice training. So one needs the voice training in any case. if one is really happy after doing that, its fine,
If you note, I am talking to someone here who has done no serious voice training whatsoever and is already talking about saving the money up for surgery (ahead of FFS or other things she needs/wants). If this person had said "I've been seeing a voice therapist twice a month for a year, am living full time so I get a lot of practice and I still get misgendered", I wouldn't have said what I did.
My main point is I notice that VERY few transwomen seem to be willing to pay for the services of a professional voice therapist and expect to learn this from watching utube videos with no feedback. It's so much easier when a therapist who understands this stuff is listening and can then say "OK this week I want you to work on _____" because they can -hear- what the problem is. My pitch is still lower than ideal but I haven't been misgendered on the phone in years and part of my job is answering the phone all day. Inflection and intonation is a huge part of this and it's very difficult to sort that out on your own. I also learned other small things from her like how to feminize my cough, a loud obviously male cough is something you don't want to do sitting in a stall in a crowded ladies room.
And yes if you are living full time, your female voice just becomes your natural voice without thought. It's no different than everything else you have to relearn, how to sit, stand, walk, etc. I would have a hard time -finding- my old male voice at this point.
Quote from: Stephe on November 10, 2014, 08:05:44 AM
It's so much easier when a therapist who understands this stuff is listening and can then say "OK this week I want you to work on _____" because they can -hear- what the problem is.
I hope that's true for most folks. Wasn't for me. Everything I learned, I learned from youtube and reading posts here. I went to a professional speech therapist whose specialty is working with trans women. I found her advice unhelpful and counterproductive, and I do better ignoring it.
Quote from: Stephe on November 10, 2014, 08:05:44 AM
If you note, I am talking to someone here who has done no serious voice training whatsoever and is already talking about saving the money up for surgery
Yes, that is true - but she did say she wants to try voice training first, just wants to keep that surgical option open and if needed have the money at hand - if not, she can use it for FFS or GRS ;)
QuoteMy main point is I notice that VERY few transwomen seem to be willing to pay for the services of a professional voice therapist and expect to learn this from watching utube videos with no feedback. It's so much easier when a therapist who understands this stuff is listening and can then say "OK this week I want you to work on _____" because they can -hear- what the problem is.
Yes - ideally. I am sometimes not sure how good mine is, she basically asks me what *I* want to work on. But then she and a few others think my voice is rather ok, so maybe thats why.
But I agree that simply watching some youtube videos are not enough and voice is a hugely important thing. I dont see too many people rushing towards surgery yet, as there still is a widespread fear of it around and I believe more people are willing to just keep an insufficiently feminized voice rather than having surgery (and in many cases also rather than doing a lot of voice therapy)
QuoteMy pitch is still lower than ideal but I haven't been misgendered on the phone in years and part of my job is answering the phone all day. Inflection and intonation is a huge part of this and it's very difficult to sort that out on your own. I also learned other small things from her like how to feminize my cough, a loud obviously male cough is something you don't want to do sitting in a stall in a crowded ladies room.
That would be horrible indeed. I am not sure how my cough Is, I guess I never really gave so much about it :\ - Voice therapists here do not seem to have that issue in the program.
I think intonation and inflection (prosody) is a huge part. I believe however that I am struggling a bit with it because I am at the samt time watching resonance and pitch. I feel like I am already pushing my pitch up quite a bit, to go up even more as part of speech melody seems to be harder. If I drop my pitch to the original, I have a wider range of pitches I can use for that, but below a certain point (according to my speech therapist around 140 Hz) the perception of my voice flips to male again, no matter what else I do :( - so that is really something that I dont know how to solve with speech therapy.
As I said, for some, 140 Hz is already their low "male" pitch, so in that case there would not be an issue. This is why I asked you about your original pitch. If it was in that range, I think you may have an advantage. The difference between 110 and 140 Hz may not be huge but it is very much in a crucial area :\
QuoteAnd yes if you are living full time, your female voice just becomes your natural voice without thought. It's no different than everything else you have to relearn, how to sit, stand, walk, etc. I would have a hard time -finding- my old male voice at this point.
Hmm - ok.
I am not sure if I relearned sitting, standing and such really... I think this is easier - just relax and it works. With voice, just relaxing means to go into a low pitched voice. The changes in resonance and probably also prosody seem to "stick" - I treid to make a really male voice and could not produce anything that was not at least more androgynous - at low pitches it works more towards being a male voice. But it is hard to do. Resonance and tone are just burned into my head it seems. But for some reason pitch does not work that way. To a degree it does - I usually average 30 Hz higher than my original relaxed speech, but that is barely enough, on some occasions it gets better and on some it gets worse. My theory is that this is possible what makes some people so frustrated with the concept of "with voice therapy everyone can get a feminine voice" - it works well if the voice originally was close to gender neutral range, it works only with constant effort if the voice was in the lower male range. It is not impossible to get a feminine voice. I can squeak and I can talk more feminine if I want to but its not coming naturally and effortlessly. Without effort, the best I seem to be able to do is to get a very low pitched "radio speaker" female voice.[/quote]
Quote from: Stephe on November 10, 2014, 08:05:44 AM
If you note, I am talking to someone here who has done no serious voice training whatsoever and is already talking about saving the money up for surgery (ahead of FFS or other things she needs/wants).
Yes, I am, and I don't see anything wrong with planning ahead. Surgery is a plan B, but from the successes here I can see it becoming a supplement to voice training which I had planned to do anyway. But I plan ahead, that's just how I am.
As I've mentioned before - FFS is not really that important to me. In fact, not even GRS/SRS is. I do plan to get those eventually but let's be realistic - if I don't visually pass 100% but I open my mouth and out comes an unmistakeably feminine voice, I will definitely pass. As I've also said, I have a lot of situations where I am heard and not seen, and I don't want to get "sir'ed" for those.
QuoteIf this person had said "I've been seeing a voice therapist twice a month for a year, am living full time so I get a lot of practice and I still get misgendered", I wouldn't have said what I did.
I don't see how this approach would even work. It's like the approach of 1 year RLE before starting HRT. To me this is "winging it" because I'm trying out something which may or may not work without a plan B. Also, given some of my medical conditions it is not unwise to enquire about pre-requisites so I can incorporate it into my overall health plan.
Quote
My main point is I notice that VERY few transwomen seem to be willing to pay for the services of a professional voice therapist and expect to learn this from watching utube videos with no feedback. It's so much easier when a therapist who understands this stuff is listening and can then say "OK this week I want you to work on _____" because they can -hear- what the problem is. My pitch is still lower than ideal but I haven't been misgendered on the phone in years and part of my job is answering the phone all day. Inflection and intonation is a huge part of this and it's very difficult to sort that out on your own. I also learned other small things from her like how to feminize my cough, a loud obviously male cough is something you don't want to do sitting in a stall in a crowded ladies room.
I actually am seeking out the services of a speech pathologist. I was actually exploring the full spectrum including the free and not so free options, along with surgical options. I was just inquiring as to what works for everyone. As stated, I am a complete newbie to this. Anyway, my therapist has referred me to a speech pathologist who I am setting up an appointment with. It's also why I've considered Kathe Perez, because of her professional credentials.
QuoteAnd yes if you are living full time, your female voice just becomes your natural voice without thought. It's no different than everything else you have to relearn, how to sit, stand, walk, etc. I would have a hard time -finding- my old male voice at this point.
At the same time I see a good few trans women who, despite looking absolutely gorgeous, remove all doubt that they are trans when they open their mouths. These are people who have seen speech pathologists, not just those who DIY.
Quote from: Stephe on November 09, 2014, 08:21:06 AM
I'm sorry but I simply have to disagree. Even if the surgery has zero risks, unless you are flush with cash, it seems like a bad priority to pick vocal surgery over other transition expenses for this perceived "slipping back", which I've never experienced. If you are living full time, you get plenty of practice daily just living. The only way I could see slipping back would be someone living part time trying to flip back and forth between a male and a female voice.
If you are going to spend some money, spend it on some personal -in RL- voice training and go as far as you can with that before you have your voice surgically altered. Don't just do a few online voice courses or watching fee youtube videos and assume that is as good as it will get. As someone else said, your voice isn't that far off now.
That higher voice takes a conscious effort. I also just listened at work, and wow, the sound is terrible. I wasn't using a good setup to record, just what I thought was a good headset (Heil with a HC-5 wide range element) but it was mismatched to the computer. I'll probably try the sound booth at work and see how that goes.
Interestingly enough I can get "ma'med" at the drive thru with enough effort, or if I've been stressed (argument with wife, usually) I go into a high pitched voice. I just wish I could make it stick.
My glasses aren't helping either. They make me sound all nasal and stuff. I need new ones anyway, or I could get some contacts.
I have to disagree with that recording, it sounds awful. It screams "guy" and "forcing it" at every turn...
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 10, 2014, 10:19:46 AM
As I've mentioned before - FFS is not really that important to me. In fact, not even GRS/SRS is. I do plan to get those eventually but let's be realistic - if I don't visually pass 100% but I open my mouth and out comes an unmistakeably feminine voice, I will definitely pass.
Yes, I believe this. I think due to the media people are somehow having that image in the head of the gorgeous woman who is however trans (OMG!) and the only way to tell it is by the voice or the adams apple (or adams apple removal scar). So they would much rather suspect a woman who looks perfectly female to be trans if the voice is really off than an masculine woman whose voice is unmistakeably female.
Quote
I don't see how this approach would even work. It's like the approach of 1 year RLE before starting HRT.
Well not quite because without HRT you cannot get the changes you need, with voice therapy you are seeing some changes that you will need ;) - but yes - if one has the possibility, it does pay off to get informed, save money and consider this option, so that whole process is not just starting in case speech therapy alone is unsatisfactory.
Ok. I had the chance now to hear the voice recordings. Kate, your original voice is at 120 Hz which is just a bit higher than mine which was at 110 Hz. Your resonance and inflection int he first recording are rather male-ish, I am sorry. The second recording is better in some ways, pitch is more at 150-160 Hz - Which again is the pitch increase I have seen go well for many without straining too much. In my case I can comfortably speak at 140-150 Hz. Sadly that is still a bit on th elow side, but of course the parameters from voice therapy are very important there - if you get the 160 Hz and would have a good resonance it would go long ways. Also in the second recording you are using your vocal range more freely, giving more pitch variation - a lot more. I think you are on the right way there, but it will be a bit more training before the voice can clearly be identified as female :(
Julia from Madrid - your voice really is very good. What do you mean by "pretty much just voice training" - what else did you do? ;) - Your pitch is nicely at 200 Hz, which is great and the desire of those like Kate (or me), but so hard to achieve. Can you tell what your original voice was in terms of pitch? Your voice sounds like it was trained to do audio recordings for radio or books or TV ;) - Very good vocalization and cleanliness of the voice. This helps all voices to be better - male and female voices
So I did some rambling about voice http://vocaroo.com/i/s0NZcWfNZJAu - I guess the content is just me babbling but you can hear my voice there. Average is about 150 Hz but some passages are just back down at the 120 Hz range.
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 10, 2014, 10:19:46 AM
I don't see how this approach would even work.
It's clear now you know way more about this subject and transition in general than I do. I'm sorry I gave you such poor advice. Good luck!
Quote from: Stephe on November 10, 2014, 04:25:21 PM
It's clear now you know way more about this subject and transition in general than I do. I'm sorry I gave you such poor advice. Good luck!
*thud*
Ok I guess
Quote from: anjaq on November 10, 2014, 03:23:05 PM
Yes, I believe this. I think due to the media people are somehow having that image in the head of the gorgeous woman who is however trans (OMG!) and the only way to tell it is by the voice or the adams apple (or adams apple removal scar). So they would much rather suspect a woman who looks perfectly female to be trans if the voice is really off than an masculine woman whose voice is unmistakeably female.
Thank you. Someone who understands!
And as I've said - many people know me by my voice alone, rather than seeing me in person. Amateur radio, podcasts and conference calls. I do many of those activities and it is important for me to be gendered unmistakeably female. If I can do that solely with training, great! If I need surgery, well at least I'd have saved the money. If I don't, the money can be used for other stuff. I always believe in being 2 steps ahead. It has worked very well for me in my life.
QuoteWell not quite because without HRT you cannot get the changes you need, with voice therapy you are seeing some changes that you will need ;) - but yes - if one has the possibility, it does pay off to get informed, save money and consider this option, so that whole process is not just starting in case speech therapy alone is unsatisfactory.
For sure. So I start off with training AND save money for surgery if needed...
I also do "get" people who view voice surgery as risky and unnecessary. It's the same way that I view breast implants. Plenty of cis women have small breasts, and they are perfectly fine. Breast implants are also only a temporary thing. I don't think I would ever want it unless I needed reconstruction due to breast cancer or similar. But if people want it, and it makes them feel better, great. Their money, their risk, their body... same with me and my voice.
Quote from: anjaq on November 10, 2014, 04:00:25 PM
Ok. I had the chance now to hear the voice recordings. Kate, your original voice is at 120 Hz which is just a bit higher than mine which was at 110 Hz. Your resonance and inflection int he first recording are rather male-ish, I am sorry. The second recording is better in some ways, pitch is more at 150-160 Hz - Which again is the pitch increase I have seen go well for many without straining too much. In my case I can comfortably speak at 140-150 Hz. Sadly that is still a bit on th elow side, but of course the parameters from voice therapy are very important there - if you get the 160 Hz and would have a good resonance it would go long ways. Also in the second recording you are using your vocal range more freely, giving more pitch variation - a lot more. I think you are on the right way there, but it will be a bit more training before the voice can clearly be identified as female :(
Thanks anjaq. I am happy with
honest criticism. Be as brutal as you need to be. I'm a big girl, I can take it.
As said, I have zero training and I'm pretty much not really making any effort in the 1st recording. That is my natural speaking voice. The second recording is more or less a halfway try, almost mrs. doubtfire-ish, lol. I know I have a long ways to go, which is why I'm looking at all of my options.
I'm not on HRT yet anyway and I am not presenting female except at home and at my therapist's office, and partially at work. I'm trying to get my ducks in a row and I'll have more voice training by the time I'm ready to go full time.
At this point I'm leaning towards the speech pathologist my gender therapist recommended. I'll give her a try first and see what she says. She is supposed to be pretty good and deals with singers and transgender clients.
Meanwhile I'll try a few more recordings just to see what my voice can do without straining it.
Haha - yes speaking of being scared of VFS - the surgeon I had a consultation with today told me that 30% of his patients are happy with the voice post op. That are horrible odds... So i guess it makes a huge differenc who you choose ;)
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 10, 2014, 06:49:21 PM
Thanks anjaq. I am happy with honest criticism. Be as brutal as you need to be. I'm a big girl, I can take it.
As said, I have zero training and I'm pretty much not really making any effort in the 1st recording. That is my natural speaking voice. The second recording is more or less a halfway try, almost mrs. doubtfire-ish, lol. I know I have a long ways to go, which is why I'm looking at all of my options.
I'm not on HRT yet anyway and I am not presenting female except at home and at my therapist's office, and partially at work. I'm trying to get my ducks in a row and I'll have more voice training by the time I'm ready to go full time.
At this point I'm leaning towards the speech pathologist my gender therapist recommended. I'll give her a try first and see what she says. She is supposed to be pretty good and deals with singers and transgender clients.
Meanwhile I'll try a few more recordings just to see what my voice can do without straining it.
I try to practice my voice while I'm on my 5 mile walks. I'm failing at hearing anything that would resemble even an effort. I want a nice voice over time but don't know where to start. So frustrating that I don't even try much at all.
1) Oh my! Julia-Madrid such a refined enunciation :O
You sound like you could (with a *slight* accent adjustment) be a proper English lady. So many people come out sounding like Americans, I love it. You make me feel like a common oik :D
2) Obviously Kate you do not sound female in either of those recordings. Nice luck on the lack of voicebox though wish I was that lucky. I look like I am halfway through swallowing an ostrich egg. Anyway clearly your pitch is not high enough, nor is your resonance and thus your tone of voice sounding correct. For me pitch was easy, the real challenge was resonance. I say "was" tentatively since my voice is still very much a WIP and I have only just got it to a point where I think it sounds acceptable.
---
Anyway since you asked, this is what I did, over a very long period of time, on and off for about 3 years or longer even maybe (first thing I worked on).
1) Get really anxious and embarrassed about practicing, plus, over the fear of trying in case I failed. All i could really do was sing along with stuff in the car when I was driving. Obviously female musicians. So that was pretty much all I did for a few months. I would occasionally try practicing easy phrases or counting in a high pitch. I didn't even know about resonance at this point. This lasted a long time since I was too scared and embarrassed to even practice properly.
2) I had to go all femmed up for an appointment at the UK GIC (don't ask) so I was worried and wanted to be able to speak, so I practiced non stop for 4 months. I tried loads of stuff. It was like banging my head against a wall. Nothing worked. I tried candifla, I tried that deepstealth stuff, pretty much if it was on youtube or well known at all I got it checked it out and discarded it.
3) After about 4 months I got pissed off. I had been to the appointment and I just didn't speak to anyone except the doc, easy. I quit for a while.
4) I started up again after only dabbling very occasionally at the beginning of the year since I got on hormones and I was gonna need to get this stuff down. I learned more stuff about resonance from some topics on another forum. Learned about keeping up the larynx better and some good exercises on how to do it, like apparantly I have muscles and stuff under my chin between chin and your neck. I finally figured out how to tense them all and stuff to get some control. I still sounded terrible but I kept practicing for a few months and actually made some progress. I did eventually get pissed off again and quit, however I kept doing exercises to pull up the larynx and other such things.
5) I practiced on and off very sporadically between then and about a month ago then I started practicing again and it is like I actually made progress without trying. I honestly think it is all about the muscle control, building and development of that. Maybe HRT matters to some degree too, plus I did give up smoking 3 months ago though I never smoked much anyway. Oh and also, if you are having trouble like I did/am, a whole lot of determination.
---
Anyway here is my current male voice (100% usage IRL so it is not warped or anything from speaking en femme):
https://soundcloud.com/olivia1988-1/startedfromthebottom/s-DG8mH - Average 105hz
Here is probably my best recording so far:
https://soundcloud.com/olivia1988-1/quitegoodnow/s-ecRiu - Average 250hz
I have been told by people on the does my voice pass thread that I sound OK so I guess I am now willing to believe it.
Anyway I hope this convolution was of some use. Really though like I said all about muscle control, at least as far as I can tell anyway.
Quote from: Seras on November 11, 2014, 11:25:31 PM
1) Oh my! Julia-Madrid such a refined enunciation :O
You sound like you could (with a *slight* accent adjustment) be a proper English lady. So many people come out sounding like Americans, I love it. You make me feel like a common oik :D
Thank you darling :) I'll never get totally rid of the slight South African edge to it... :o But I'd be happy to try being a proper English lady - just help me find a nice single member of the landed gentry....
Your voice sounds pretty good, by the way!
xxx
J
Olivia, you sound very good! Does it take much effort though? My #1 fear is being out in public then calling out to one of my kids in panic, then suddenly the male voice comes out and turns heads for the wrong reasons.
It is not too hard no, to speak at least. I think this is because I took so long to get there. It is quite similar to how I was *trying* before, except the control and strength has developed in the muscles around that area enables me to hold it steady reasonably well. So it does not sound horrible, shaky and strained. I have not really tried shouting with it yet though, like seriously I only just got to this point of it not sounding bad within the last couple weeks, far as I can tell.
I think though to get to the point where you can just use it without thinking means you have to be using your voice more often than not. Some people on forums have said this takes around a month, to get to the point of being able to use it without thinking ie. in panic. Then again shouting out is harder still and will probably require specific practicing.
Thanks for the compliments though, you really cannot believe how happy I am to have gotten to this point and for people to be saying it sounds OK and for me to hear it sounding OK! I am not exaggerating on the time it took. It sounds though like I had a worse starting position than you? Like at this point I feel like with the determination anyone can do this. So I am sure you can sort it out too! If you want any more specific stuff though I do have records of pretty much the whole process. I am more than happy to help in any way I can if you have any trouble, cause seriously this was the #1 obstacle for me.
PS South African accent is cool too, I like it, and Afrikaans is crazy. I am a fan of Die Antwoord >:-)
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 12, 2014, 02:51:38 PM
Olivia, you sound very good! Does it take much effort though? My #1 fear is being out in public then calling out to one of my kids in panic, then suddenly the male voice comes out and turns heads for the wrong reasons.
Yes, this is a very valid concern. My voice doesn't work well at high volume. But Kate, it's not common to need to shriek in public, so work on the 95% of situations where a normal volume voice is needed.
I can't remember whose addage this is - "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ;D
Sears (or Olivia?) - Quite a difference between the two voices. The higher pitch voice sounds quite good. But my advice would be not to push it that hard upwards. I think you may be overdoing it. The voice sounds quite good but to me it also sounds a little bit strained still and I think it defeinitely sounds breathy in parts. Which is a more feminine quality but can alo be too much at times and it takes away a lot of air, so you maybe need to catch breath a lot more often. I doubt you can speak very loud in that voice either - it sounds like it is still not established enough for that. Also it does not go with the breathyness.
So generally maybe you should settle for an Alto voice instead of a soprano (depending on how your personality and body is - if you are tiny and feminine a high pitch is ok, if you are tall or bi or more athletic or are a bit of a craftswoman, maybe a more medium or lower female range would suit you) and do some exercises that are made to get a good singing voice - like airflow exercises. It also pay off to regularly visit a voice specialist to chek if you are doing something that causes damage - happened to me.
Interesting thread and one that's been on the front of my mind for a long time. Given where I live (Anchorage Alaska) there are few resources available here. I'm looking into speech therapy but I don't know of any with any experience working with our community and honestly, I'm not sure how well I would do with YT lessons or DeepStealth, etc. I'm giving very serious consideration to the Yeson procedure due to the, so far, apparent lack of other options for me here in Alaska.
Soundcloud name is Olivia hence the double name issue :P
Well thing is that pitch is not actually too hard for me, I am pushing it a little though ofc. An earlier recording in the does my voice pass thread averages at 11hz higher on the mean average, but that one was for sure strained. Also it is not quite as breathy as it sounds I do not think, it is somewhat emphasized by the microphone being practically in my mouth. It is still very much a work in progress and I am still working on stabilizing it at that pitch, like I would be pretty happy with a slightly lower pitch. After all 250hz is higher than some people after Yeson. I can practice with this voice for quite some time though without getting a sore throat at all. I do know what the pain feels like too from practice long ago! I do appreciate the warning though and understand it, I have read your posts some time ago with regards to your voice issues. Depending on how it goes I do have a speech therapist who I may end up calling some time to get an opinion from. When I feel I have reached the precipice of personal learning.
Yea, as for what kinda voice I wanna end up with though it is hard to find what I want. See although I am 6ft tall I also weigh only 126lb (57kg), due to ridiculous metabolism and extremely slight frame (for a male). Oh but I can speak pretty loud I think because a lot of my practice is made up by (terrible) singing. I do imagine my final voice may be a little lower pitch though you know, but I think a little push while learning (and being careful not to overdo it while training muscles and making sure to always have a glass of water at hand) and then dropping back into a slightly more accessible register for real life will be best?
Danke schone fur die Rat ? :D
---
How long you been workin it Wynternight?
Quote from: Seras on November 12, 2014, 05:36:11 PM
Soundcloud name is Olivia hence the double name issue :P
Well thing is that pitch is not actually too hard for me, I am pushing it a little though ofc. An earlier recording in the does my voice pass thread averages at 11hz higher on the mean average, but that one was for sure strained. Also it is not quite as breathy as it sounds I do not think, it is somewhat emphasized by the microphone being practically in my mouth. It is still very much a work in progress and I am still working on stabilizing it at that pitch, like I would be pretty happy with a slightly lower pitch. After all 250hz is higher than some people after Yeson. I can practice with this voice for quite some time though without getting a sore throat at all. I do know what the pain feels like too from practice long ago! I do appreciate the warning though and understand it, I have read your posts some time ago with regards to your voice issues. Depending on how it goes I do have a speech therapist who I may end up calling some time to get an opinion from. When I feel I have reached the precipice of personal learning.
Yea, as for what kinda voice I wanna end up with though it is hard to find what I want. See although I am 6ft tall I also weigh only 126lb (57kg), due to ridiculous metabolism and extremely slight frame (for a male). Oh but I can speak pretty loud I think because a lot of my practice is made up by (terrible) singing. I do imagine my final voice may be a little lower pitch though you know, but I think a little push while learning (and being careful not to overdo it while training muscles and making sure to always have a glass of water at hand) and then dropping back into a slightly more accessible register for real life will be best?
Danke schone fur die Rat ? :D
---
How long you been workin it Wynternight?
Interesting thing: since my hiatal hernia repair I've noticed a decrease in my lung capacity that has made singing a right chore. I'm also unable to give a good cough or laugh. I'm wondering if there isn't some nerve damage in my diaphragm from the surgery. I've found that voice practice of any kind these days is hard and I think I'm compensating in other ways because I feel an almost constant tension in my vocal cords. I'm going to call the surgeon and try and get some answers and I'd really like to see a speech therapist even aside from the voice training for transition.
Definitely sounds like a good idea to get a specialist involved if you got that kinda problem.
Quote from: Seras on November 11, 2014, 11:25:31 PM
2) Obviously Kate you do not sound female in either of those recordings. Nice luck on the lack of voicebox though wish I was that lucky. I look like I am halfway through swallowing an ostrich egg. Anyway clearly your pitch is not high enough, nor is your resonance and thus your tone of voice sounding correct. For me pitch was easy, the real challenge was resonance. I say "was" tentatively since my voice is still very much a WIP and I have only just got it to a point where I think it sounds acceptable.
Thanks. I "lucked out" I guess although I wish that came with a female voice (and body). I know the voice is definitely nowhere near female but I'm at a starting point now.
Quote1) Get really anxious and embarrassed about practicing, plus, over the fear of trying in case I failed. All i could really do was sing along with stuff in the car when I was driving. Obviously female musicians. So that was pretty much all I did for a few months. I would occasionally try practicing easy phrases or counting in a high pitch. I didn't even know about resonance at this point. This lasted a long time since I was too scared and embarrassed to even practice properly.
This is me although I'm starting to sing more with 80s bands such as REO Speedwagon and Air Supply to start. Then I will move on to female musicians... my music library is full of Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey so you can see my dilemma. :o
Practicing at work is no-go as I am all over the place and it's pretty much an open environment. At home apart from all the chores there is also my wife who still gets upset when I do girly stuff, so I really don't want to do this in front of her. We also commute together so it's like I'm under constant supervision so I can't practice in the car except for singing. And she's a mess these days emotionally (even more so since I came out) so I don't want to add even more to it.
I figure though that if I'm paying for voice lessons I could be free to practice there and then work up the courage to practice at home. So right now I'm shopping around for a speech therapist.
Quote2) I had to go all femmed up for an appointment at the UK GIC (don't ask) so I was worried and wanted to be able to speak, so I practiced non stop for 4 months. I tried loads of stuff. It was like banging my head against a wall. Nothing worked. I tried candifla, I tried that deepstealth stuff, pretty much if it was on youtube or well known at all I got it checked it out and discarded it.
I tried a bit of deepstealth and it is hard. Tried a bit of CandiFLA, it's hard. But I am trying. There are a few things I notice about my voice. One is that I have vocal fry on the lower end, and at lower volume. The other is that it is nasal. My glasses press my nose so I'm going to probably get rid of them and get contacts or do eye surgery (PRK/Lasik). I have been meaning to do that for a while now anyway. The bigger thing is that I have a gap between my high end and falsetto where absolutely nothing but air comes out. I suppose everyone has this? I dunno. Anyway these things I need to ask about when I see the voice therapist.
Quote5) I practiced on and off very sporadically between then and about a month ago then I started practicing again and it is like I actually made progress without trying. I honestly think it is all about the muscle control, building and development of that. Maybe HRT matters to some degree too, plus I did give up smoking 3 months ago though I never smoked much anyway. Oh and also, if you are having trouble like I did/am, a whole lot of determination.
If I am having normal conversation I can easily do 150-160Hz without even trying. even 170-180 if I raise it a bit. But the time I sit down to read something it drops back... I do some speaking in front of audiences and at church. I have no idea of the pitch but I've been told I sound powerful, so I assume that means low. :(
So I have my initial consultation tomorrow with a speech pathologist. I'm pretty excited. Let's see what she'll say.
For you girls that have had one on one professional help, how did the initial consultation go?
In addition to feminizing my voice, I would like to get rid of my slight accent. But here's the rub - when I go visit my old country, for my safety it is crucial that my voice passes 100%. And I usually talk like a local without even thinking (because technically I am one.) So I may have to figure out something.
I hope it goes well Kate :D
I am still tryin to work the breathiness out of my voice. I will be happy to hear how it goes cause if I continue to fail to improve I will be doing the same as you!
Initial consult went well. I'm having a full evaluation in a couple of weeks and then we can decide from there what is best.
She said my voice isn't all that low (but clearly in the male range) and that I have some issues with enunciation, especially "ing" and "th" but we will fix that.
I also mentioned my Caribbean accent and she said she won't take that away from me. It is very important for me to sound female when I visit the old country as a safety issue.
I've been training myself for the past three months by watching youtube videos mainly. My voice sounds good when speaking in a normal voice even on the phone but once I try speaking loudly or shouting (say when I'm in a club or bar) it doesn't work!! Does anyone know why this might be the case??
My technique includes squezzing my throat, highering pitch a little bit and adding breathiness. My main focus has been on reducing chest resonance and speaking "from the head and neck" if that makes sense!
Hi, as you know if you read this thread I am still working on my voice. However I believe you speak louder by expanding the area you allow the voice to reverberate in. With a male voice this will be by allowing it to shake around all over your chest. I believe if you want to do it with a feminine voice you need to try and make it reverberate all around your head more. How exactly to accomplish this I am not 100% sure. Try checking out mask resonance, I think it is a singing thing. I think that is what you gotta do and is something I plan to look into soon.
BTW when I visit my old country I would have to sound somewhat like this, just a little younger.
http://www.dialectsarchive.com/trinidad-3
I have a new mic setup I'm going to try and I'll read "Comma Gets a cure" and do another recording in my native accent.
I can't add a lot here I'm sorry as I'm yet to begin my voice training, apart from some personal attempts here and there. I have had a session though with my Speech Therapist, this was more about planning what and when we're going to seriously start working on this. What she did tell me was that pitch is only one ever so small part of the overall voice. Speech, pronunciations and the way we carry those words were her recommendations and what we'll be working on in January when I start regular Speech Therapy sessions. I would suggest finding a speech therapist who is experienced in Male to Female Trans speech requirements. Mine is and its a comfort to know.
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 20, 2014, 04:13:46 PM
BTW when I visit my old country I would have to sound somewhat like this, just a little younger.
Kate, this is an interesting one, although, having watched my accent move about through three country changes, you'll probably naturally gravitate to it once you have been there for a few days.
But accents and having to deal with different languages simultaneously do present some challenges, since you have to learn how women inflect their speech for multiple languages or regions. I feel that I sound much more female in English and less so in Spanish, for example. But it's subjective. Probably it's not important.
Julia
If you get the infelctions wrong because it is a foreign language - would that matter? After all any other woman who has to learn some new language will probably also get the infections wrong at first - and after some time in the country it will adapt, wouldnt it?
Quote from: anjaq on November 22, 2014, 12:19:31 PM
If you get the infelctions wrong because it is a foreign language - would that matter? After all any other woman who has to learn some new language will probably also get the infections wrong at first - and after some time in the country it will adapt, wouldnt it?
The problem is that this is my native accent and if I don't sound natural I would be read rather quickly.
Unfortunately it is a safety issue as gays get 25 years in jail and transgender people are lumped in with them, plus violence can and does happen (and I can't carry a weapon or even mace or pepper spray there). The laws are rarely enforced but there is always the risk...
In any case my speech therapist assures me that she would be able to work with the accent as well. The inflections for that dialect aren't hard to learn.
Wow - I would be scared to go back there no matter what. And certainly only after GRS :( - Tough - do you still have family and friends there to return to? Did you move out of the country to transition?
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 22, 2014, 01:03:17 PM
The problem is that this is my native accent and if I don't sound natural I would be read rather quickly.
Unfortunately it is a safety issue as gays get 25 years in jail and transgender people are lumped in with them, plus violence can and does happen (and I can't carry a weapon or even mace or pepper spray there). The laws are rarely enforced but there is always the risk...
In any case my speech therapist assures me that she would be able to work with the accent as well. The inflections for that dialect aren't hard to learn.
Umm Kate, not such a nice place for trans people, but I guess that you have no choice but to return from time to time for family or some other reason.
To be honest, I don't think you'd have trouble with the accent - it's a rather attractive one in my opinion - and one you already know. Compared with the effort to get your girl voice going, the rest will be simple.
Here's my voice, http://vocaroo.com/i/s01uDZuMY0XL
The best advice I can give is to use your female voice as much as you possibly can. When I first started out I could barely get my voice to be higher pitched than my normal male voice but every morning and afternoon going to & from work I used my female voice. I talked to myself, I sung along to the radio and about every two weeks I challenged myself to go outside of my new comfort zone and go a little higher with my voice then I'd drop back down a tiny bit to try to make this new level my new I can consistently use voice. This takes a LOT of time to accomplish and even after just over a year of working on my voice I still feel like I can safely keep pushing and pushing my voice higher and higher as I've basically allowed my voice to slowly but surely build up that strength & endurance over that time instead of pushing way too hard and doing damage.
When I came out at work my boss put me in touch with a voice therapist not knowing that I had been working on my voice. When I met her just to talk for a little bit she was blown away and the only tip she could offer was to keep doing exactly what I'm doing as it is working for me.
Indeed - this is a great voice - and its fun how you can switch between them. i find it interesting that it has some "roughness" to it that still sounds feminine - something my voice therapist tries to eliminate from my voice - trying to make it as smooth as possible. Obviously that is not needed always ;).
Voice training to soomething that is stable and has endurance is really a lot of work, my therapist said it is basically like always doing singing or acting in a play - it is using the voice in a manner that takes control - just like it does in performing. And she was in a way amazed that this can work for so many - to bascially be a voice performer permanently. She was clear though that this voice then needs a lot of care, jus tlike with performers - keep it hydrated, do voice training and relaxation every day just like singers do, avoid overstraining - and of course take care to use it the right way so it does not get damaged with time.
Quote from: Hanazono on November 22, 2014, 11:51:38 PM
I'm pretty blown away too. you have such a beautiful voice, you should be working in the news channel! oh my goodness!
Thanks! I have been told similar things quite often lately which makes all the work that I've put into my voice that more worth it.
Quote from: anjaq on November 23, 2014, 05:52:58 AM
Indeed - this is a great voice - and its fun how you can switch between them. i find it interesting that it has some "roughness" to it that still sounds feminine - something my voice therapist tries to eliminate from my voice - trying to make it as smooth as possible. Obviously that is not needed always ;).
Voice training to soomething that is stable and has endurance is really a lot of work, my therapist said it is basically like always doing singing or acting in a play - it is using the voice in a manner that takes control - just like it does in performing. And she was in a way amazed that this can work for so many - to bascially be a voice performer permanently. She was clear though that this voice then needs a lot of care, jus tlike with performers - keep it hydrated, do voice training and relaxation every day just like singers do, avoid overstraining - and of course take care to use it the right way so it does not get damaged with time.
Thanks! That roughness is from being sick for the last two weeks, I'm finally in the end stages of having a cold and my voice is a little more rough sounding than it normally is. I like to think the reason why I can easily switch back and fourth between my male register and female register is all due to the control I've gained over my voice box. It can be fun & funny to use as I've tested my voice out numerous times when I was still living part time at fast food drive thru where I order in my female voice, get gendered female and then show up to the window in guy mode with my guy voice. I confused this one woman so much that I felt bad for doing it and stopped doing that as I had learned at that point that my voice was a ok and I needed to stop freaking out about my voice so much. The creepy thing is I've watched myself in the mirror when doing that and it completely creeps me out but you can see the mechanics of it all working as I use my male voice my voice box are very low in my throat and when I use my female voice the voice box goes almost all the way up to the top of my throat.
While working on my voice it was pretty tough to keep myself from going into the "danger zone" where you are pushing your voice way to hard for what it can do and end up getting it hurt in the process. Just like your voice therapist said our voices are a very important tool that can easily be damaged. So many singers careers have ended because they damaged their voice sadly.
Edit: This is what I sounded like before I caught a really nasty cold in September from a video clip I recorded on my phone while I walked outside. http://vocaroo.com/i/s09sPKOPuCqJ
You know what else is weird about lookin in the mirror, for me at least. If I look in the mirror while doing my voice I look more feminine somehow. I think my brain connects voice with appearance somewhere deep in my brain mechanics. It is odd.
Maybe it is just me ::)
Quote from: Seras on November 23, 2014, 09:42:37 AM
You know what else is weird about lookin in the mirror, for me at least. If I look in the mirror while doing my voice I look more feminine somehow. I think my brain connects voice with appearance somewhere deep in my brain mechanics. It is odd.
Maybe it is just me ::)
Same here! My male voice doesn't match my appearance at all and hearing the wrong voice with the right image is so off putting.
Totally - If I see me and then hear my relaxed voice, I fell quite odd. I immediately shift to a higher pitch to avoid that feeling :P - although I know i am not supposed to do that too much according to my voice therapist.
Anyways - even with that cold, your voice is totally feminine and that is what I meant. It is amazing since even the cold did not destroy that. For some, a cold totally ruins things because it is hard to have a cold and then still use your voice in a trained way. Cool that you can do this :)
I read a lot about the mechanics of the voice box moving up and down. I guess it is interesting if you can see that actually :)
Quote from: Megumi on November 22, 2014, 08:23:58 PM
Here's my voice, http://vocaroo.com/i/s01uDZuMY0XL
The best advice I can give is to use your female voice as much as you possibly can. When I first started out I could barely get my voice to be higher pitched than my normal male voice but every morning and afternoon going to & from work I used my female voice. I talked to myself, I sung along to the radio and about every two weeks I challenged myself to go outside of my new comfort zone and go a little higher with my voice then I'd drop back down a tiny bit to try to make this new level my new I can consistently use voice. This takes a LOT of time to accomplish and even after just over a year of working on my voice I still feel like I can safely keep pushing and pushing my voice higher and higher as I've basically allowed my voice to slowly but surely build up that strength & endurance over that time instead of pushing way too hard and doing damage.
When I came out at work my boss put me in touch with a voice therapist not knowing that I had been working on my voice. When I met her just to talk for a little bit she was blown away and the only tip she could offer was to keep doing exactly what I'm doing as it is working for me.
WHAT THE FUUUUUU***CKKKKKKK. HOW. WHEN. WHAT. Omggggg. I'm amazed. That's so crazy lol
Quote from: Julia-Madrid on November 12, 2014, 12:53:19 PM
I'll never get totally rid of the slight South African edge to it... :o
And you shouldn't. I LOVE the SA accent, I dated a South African girl once and even now when on the rare occasion I hear it in the wild, I stop what I'm doing and just listen. Recently I talked to a customer service lady from SA, I kept coming up with stuff to discuss just to keep her talking lol. >:-)
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 17, 2014, 04:07:33 PM
So I have my initial consultation tomorrow with a speech pathologist. I'm pretty excited. Let's see what she'll say.
For you girls that have had one on one professional help, how did the initial consultation go?
In addition to feminizing my voice, I would like to get rid of my slight accent. But here's the rub - when I go visit my old country, for my safety it is crucial that my voice passes 100%. And I usually talk like a local without even thinking (because technically I am one.) So I may have to figure out something.
I just spent over 3 months in Trinidad, and your accent is VERY slight IMO. Trust me, I had phone calls with locals that I had to ask them to repeat themselves multiple times and nearly brought me to tears lol.
Quote from: ErinS on November 23, 2014, 11:47:50 PM
I just spent over 3 months in Trinidad, and your accent is VERY slight IMO. Trust me, I had phone calls with locals that I had to ask them to repeat themselves multiple times and nearly brought me to tears lol.
Thanks. I've lived in the states 15 years so that helps. Plus I too got fed up of people asking me to repeat myself. Only thing is my current US dialect is a little too "Jersey" for my liking lol...
My dad on the other hand, he speaks in the native dialect and doesn't care to speak 'merican. He says people should understand him as he's speaking English after all.
Cant you just say that after 15 years in the US you sort of adopted the dialect there and unlearned your original dialect? As an explanation why you cannot yet do a female dialect version?
Quote from: Hanazono on November 24, 2014, 09:01:13 AM
I just discovered Scouse and English aren't mutually intelligible
Hah! If you don't know many people from Liverpool it may seem pretty impenetrable at first. Hell, even some other Scots have trouble with a thick Glaswegian accent.
Quote from: anjaq on November 24, 2014, 08:57:26 AM
Cant you just say that after 15 years in the US you sort of adopted the dialect there and unlearned your original dialect? As an explanation why you cannot yet do a female dialect version?
I don't think so. I can switch back pretty easily, almost without thinking. In fact if I see a person from trinidad and Tobago or the other islands I switch back automatically. Sometimes it helps put a smile on their face. I haven't really tried a Trinidad female version. I could try to sound like my mom or cousin, which isn't that hard in terms of prosody, but pitch I have a problem with.
But yeah I could use that as a fallback excuse.. gahhh I hate making excuses though.
Quote from: anjaq on November 24, 2014, 08:57:26 AM
Cant you just say that after 15 years in the US you sort of adopted the dialect there and unlearned your original dialect? As an explanation why you cannot yet do a female dialect version?
That's how I am. I'm bidialectal so after years in the US I speak the American version of RP but when I go home to Scotland my natural accent comes back very easily and quickly.
Quote from: Wynternight on November 24, 2014, 02:32:55 PM
That's how I am. I'm bidialectal so after years in the US I speak the American version of RP but when I go home to Scotland my natural accent comes back very easily and quickly.
Yes, you do it without thinking almost.