Hi Everyone,
There's been a lot of buzz in lefty news recently about street harassment targeting cis women by cis men and though the same outlets haven't said much, I think it's also well-established that trans women who don't "pass" - especially if they're a POC - receive more harassment than anybody. I haven't read any statistics on trans men, except that I know in some places masculine women or trans men are also at risk of sexual violence when our sex is revealed.
So far this hasn't been my experience, however. (Thank god). As a (white) FAAB with chest-masculinizing surgery and a "boy's haircut" but otherwise no male sex characteristics, I've noticed that the more masculine - or maybe confusing? - my gender presentation (e.g., tight shirts that show my flat chest with short shorts that show my big thighs), the more stares and questionable looks I receive. Mostly the stares are curious or slightly suspicious but sometimes they have a certain lewdness or undercurrent of malice that make me uneasy. However, the number of comments directed my way has significantly gone down. But even before I had the chest surgery, when my presentation was already pretty masculine, I don't feel like I was ever harassed that much - a factor I attributed to just being unattractive. :-\
So I was just wondering, for those of us who identify outside of the binary and present ourselves accordingly, whether that has affected the attention we receive and how. Does "masculinizing" your appearance deflect male attention? Has "feminizing" it enhanced it? Can you predict the amount of harassment you'll receive based on how you present yourself that day? And does it ever make you think twice about wearing that skirt you really like or whether or not you should bind when passing through certain neighborhoods?
Cheers.
-V
harassment is something i received when i presented cis female and was very uncomfortable with pretty much everything in my life.
i no longer let people harass me, so i can't really comment until i've tried medically masculinizing my body.
They dont mess with me genderqueer. As soft as I look, there is something deep within that they sense, and unless they are foolish, they wont screw with that.
Most respect me having the balls to do it. Although I'd like to trade those for something my other friends would also like not having, they can have mine, I would enjoy theirs, though truth be told, when it comes to visuals, I prefer genderless too. But not when it comes to physical needs, so it remains, never actually acknowledged by me to be a body part that is part of me.
But no, they don't harrass. Not with this specific presentation, they just figure its original, bending.
I don't get harassed when I don't pass. I get stares, glares, smirks (still don't know what that's about) but no harassment, not even a little.
When I do pass, I have guys calling out to me when I walk down city streets, but not in any other public venues (mall, stores, park, etc.)
The harassment I got before transition was actually worse than post transition, I was an androgynous femme male, who was always read as queer (either gay or lesbian depending on what I was wearing, haircut and whether or not I had facial hair). I actually came close to being queer bashed on a number of occasions.
Post transition I mostly get catcalling (I get meowed at, a lot ??? ), occasionally I get a bit of harassment from being read as a queer woman, mostly from my habit of dressing skater,riding skateboards and carrying a handbag. It confuses people.
I am perfectly capable of being read as cis and straight, unless I deliberately queer it up, so presentation definitely does play a role in the kind of harassment I get.
I don't get harassed, I do the harassing.!
Not really harassing I suppose, more like protecting.
If I ever witness anyone helplessly being harassed, whether trans, gay, female, old person etc. I think I'll just take a swing or two, and put them out..
I'm old, bad health, what are the cops going to do to me.?
I don't get harassed and I suppose that even though I sport some obvious female attributes that having been fully masculinized for the first half of my life there is something in my demeanor and presence that is offsetting to any potential harassers. I am pretty well accepted by women, probably because I am friendly and warm and don't flaunt my differences, though I'm sure that a few consider me somewhat of a colorful androgynous eccentric. I've never been approached by men in their 20's - 30's range, but I suspect some of the older men see something interesting, however I take it in stride and am pretty non-responsive to that sort of stuff. Then again I just may be too dull of wit to even notice!
Quote from: Vestyn on November 09, 2014, 11:03:28 PM
There's been a lot of buzz in lefty news recently about street harassment targeting cis women by cis men and though the same outlets haven't said much,
Cheers.
-V
Hi Vestyn,
Sorry to sidetrack the discussion a bit but I just had to says something about the idea that there's a lefty media in the U.S.. It's a bit of a myth. When you have a country where the words Liberal and Socialist are equated to Communism, you really don't have much on the left. Really the only thing the U.S. has is different flavors of right-wing corporate media, which are all driven by their corporate agendas. There's not really much lefty about that.
Paige :)
We dont get that sort of harassment here like what people could see on that famous YT clip (about 10 hrs walking the streets of NYC - I was like, OMG, that's crazy... but I think, I am getting now some insight on what You folks are experiencing). Now, here one might get some unwanted attention if seen as LGBT, but well, being 5'9" I dont really experience that. I cannot project that aura or presence and danger anymore, but I use that calm and peaceful stare now (You know, I am not presenting a danger to You but I am not afraid of You either) whenever I sense those curious stares upon me. Just make them know that their attention is detected and is unwanted. Works fine - at least so far :).
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 10, 2014, 02:44:15 PM
We dont get that sort of harassment here like what people could see on that famous YT clip (about 10 hrs walking the streets of NYC - I was like, OMG, that's crazy... but I think, I am getting now some insight on what You folks are experiencing). Now, here one might get some unwanted attention if seen as LGBT, but well, being 5'9" I dont really experience that. I cannot project that aura or presence and danger anymore, but I use that calm and peaceful stare now (You know, I am not presenting a danger to You but I am not afraid of You either) whenever I sense those curious stares upon me. Just make them know that their attention is detected and is unwanted. Works fine - at least so far :).
Uh - huh, it works for me too hon, that's what I mean by having a certain presence!
I am comfortable in my social presentation most of the time, unless triggered by.a type of male I find belligerent and offensive. But where I dig the new threads, the new look, the new me, the more contagious that is for others. When it's real, not faked, it seems to work.
That's on strong days. I have some other days, still very emotional.
An awful lot of girls seem to like my boots....
Maybe eyes will drop someday too. I'd rather enjoy that.
But I have had it with harrassment, and will respond with something swift, reflexively like when the guys criticized my boots. That sure didn't last long. :)
Quote from: Satinjoy on November 10, 2014, 07:54:04 PM
I am comfortable in my social presentation most of the time, unless triggered by.a type of male I find belligerent and offensive. But where I dig the new threads, the new look, the new me, the more contagious that is for others. When it's real, not faked, it seems to work.
That's on strong days. I have some other days, still very emotional.
An awful lot of girls seem to like my boots....
Maybe eyes will drop someday too. I'd rather enjoy that.
But I have had it with harrassment, and will respond with something swift, reflexively like when the guys criticized my boots. That sure didn't last long. :)
:eusa_clap: :icon_bunch:
Wow, I'm really surprised and encouraged by the responses I'm reading here. :)
I'm curious if cis and trans binary women would confirm or deny that it's possible to have a particular "don't-mess-with-me aura" that keeps the pigs at bay.
Not that I've noticed, even with skateboard and headphones people still bother me.
That would be then a compliment. I think. I like your style df, you have guts.
Blessings
Satinjoy
When I dress feminine I brace myself for cat calls, stares, and being followed or cornered. When I dress masculine I brace myself for a whole lotta nothin. (unless there's a police officer. At night.) I haven't had the nerve to dress full on queer yet, so I don't know what kind of reaction that gets.
There definitely is a "Don't mess with me aura" and you learn to have it very quickly when you dress femininely. Especially in the summer when you don't want to wear as much. I will be more conscientious about how forceful my presence is, and will intentionally wear a b*tch face.
Quote from: AnonBear on November 11, 2014, 10:10:49 PM
When I dress feminine I brace myself for cat calls, stares, and being followed or cornered. When I dress masculine I brace myself for a whole lotta nothin. (unless there's a police officer. At night.) I haven't had the nerve to dress full on queer yet, so I don't know what kind of reaction that gets.
There definitely is a "Don't mess with me aura" and you learn to have it very quickly when you dress femininely. Especially in the summer when you don't want to wear as much. I will be more conscientious about how forceful my presence is, and will intentionally wear a b*tch face.
I'm a pretty outgoing chatty personality and women usually feel quite comfortable in my presence, but when I see a woman with the "bitch face" and body language to match, I instantly go (Whoa don't go there dummy, it isn't going to be pleasant if you do!) I have one of those stone faced looks that I can flash instantly that says (Careful, this person may be dangerous) It works well when the circumstances warrant it.
Resting bitch face can work, until someone tells you that you'd look prettier if you smiled
Quote from: Dread_Faery on November 12, 2014, 11:03:46 AM
Resting bitch face can work, until someone tells you that you'd look prettier if you smiled
Oh always true, but smiling doesn't disarm the other person in a threatening situation like mean looks do.
Quote from: Dread_Faery on November 12, 2014, 11:03:46 AM
Resting bitch face can work, until someone tells you that you'd look prettier if you smiled
Telling one they would look "prettier" if they smiled is, in itself, sexual harassment. Just saying.
Erin
I know. I hate it, you just can't win when it comes to being perceived as female in public spaces
Quote from: ErinWDK on November 12, 2014, 11:07:29 AM
Telling one they would look "prettier" if they smiled is, in itself, sexual harassment. Just saying.
Erin
Don't let my granddaughter know, she's 14 and I am forever telling her, "Stand up straight and quit slouching, smile and get that grumpy look off your face and give me that damned cell phone!" :D
Quote from: Shantel on November 12, 2014, 11:33:37 AM
Don't let my granddaughter know, she's 14 and I am forever telling her, "Stand up straight and quit slouching, smile and get that grumpy look off your face and give me that damned cell phone!" :D
To family this is fine and OK. To say it to a random stranger on the street - not so much.
Erin
Quote from: Dread_Faery on November 12, 2014, 11:03:46 AM
Resting bitch face can work, until someone tells you that you'd look prettier if you smiled
How about response that "You would look smarter if you kept your mouth shut".
but people dont have a habit of this type of street harassment here.
Quote from: Dread_Faery on November 12, 2014, 11:03:46 AM
Resting bitch face can work, until someone tells you that you'd look prettier if you smiled
Aw crap, how did I forget that.
Quote from: ErinWDK on November 12, 2014, 11:37:42 AM
To family this is fine and OK. To say it to a random stranger on the street - not so much.
Erin
Ditto. I was sick at school one day and had to sit down in the break room to get myself together (dizziness, nausea). Someone walked in and said "SMILE!". And I smiled. It's a reflex at this point. But I hated myself afterward for doing it. Another person came by later and asked me if I was okay. This is the proper response to a stranger who looks miserable.
If a friend told me to smile, well, I trust that person's coming from a genuinely good place more than a stranger. Plus I'd feel more comfortable telling them that what they said wasn't cool. A stranger I might need to fight and I wasn't in the state to do it.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 12, 2014, 12:23:07 PM
How about response that "You would look smarter if you kept your mouth shut".
I like this, and yet it can be such a dangerous thing to do if you're not up for a real fight. Heck some people wanna fight you just for refusing to smile. Gotta pick your battles.
Quote from: AnonBear on November 12, 2014, 03:01:40 PM
I like this, and yet it can be such a dangerous thing to do if you're not up for a real fight. Heck some people wanna fight you just for refusing to smile. Gotta pick your battles.
Seriously? They would fight a woman just because of that??? Well, they are up for some nasty surprises then...
Some people's entitlement knows no bounds.
Quote from: AnonBear on November 12, 2014, 04:13:04 PM
Some people's entitlement knows no bounds.
Oh well :(.
Then
swords of others will set them their limits...
And speaking about that street harrasment, I guess, it really does matter where You live... I just stumbled across this one on YT.It was made in response to that clip who has now gone viral (walking 10 hrs in NYC as a female). This is how it looks up here and there is a huge difference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnZsH4kNyLI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnZsH4kNyLI)
No wonder, it is much safer here to live as a trans as well, cause people keep so much to themselves.
I live in a village, and while it's an absolute sink of debauchery and depravity, people generally don't say unpleasant stuff to you in the street, a) because you like as not know where they live and b) gossip spreads like wildfire in a village.
When I go to the city that's when I get comments and stuff. They get creepier the warmer the weather is and the more skin I'm showing
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 12, 2014, 04:23:41 PM
Oh well :(.
Then swords of others will set them their limits...
And speaking about that street harrasment, I guess, it really does matter where You live... I just stumbled across this one on YT.It was made in response to that clip who has now gone viral (walking 10 hrs in NYC as a female). This is how it looks up here and there is a huge difference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnZsH4kNyLI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnZsH4kNyLI)
No wonder, it is much safer here to live as a trans as well, cause people keep so much to themselves.
Yeah..
And for the video, I love that these 10 hour walks are becoming a trend. It really does show you how different things can be in different parts of the world, as Dread_Faery points out also. It makes me laugh a little when people assume that men are just inherently rude and cat call because they're male.
Then I die a little inside cause I know they're serious.
a smile is a show of emotion. one that can be easily faked.
i hate hearing that anyone should smile more or is prettier when they smile, or even just a command to smile.
you could just as well tell them to cry, despair, and go kill themselves out of unhappiness.
having been robbed of any right to have negative emotions in the home where i grew up, it makes me more than just a little annoyed, particularly when i hear people say it to younger family members. so you're even going to control their emotions?
if a stranger says it, i can just call him an idiot if i want to. that doesn't work well with parents when you're just 8 years old.
i think people look better when they smile. much better.
but i don't want any fake smile. i want my friends and those i care for to smile simply because they want to.
i've perfected my fake smile, just so i wouldn't have to have people tell me constantly that i should smile more no matter how much i feel like dying.
happy people seem to have this inherent belief that smiling makes people happy. they don't see the opposite way of causation.
the sexual harassment part of this is a little... either you smile, and are harassed by some guy who thinks you're an easy catch,
or you don't smile and are harassed because of that.
a stern look would be different though. nobody harasses a woman with that strict and stern look.
i don't use it because it's not in my nature to reject people without even knowing them.
i hate when they assume the lack of initial rejection equals sexual interest.
By the numbers (well by the USA NTDS survey)* use your own judgement if your own country differs in amounts
The national TG survey showed less discrimination from cisgender than TS and CD.
The survey didn't divided non-binary, called gender non-conformity by birth base.
It does show the enemies of non-binary are the police (their not going to respect you, and are 10% more likely to assault you) and presenting photo ID when in-congruent. Also mistreatment in k-12, mostly verbal harassment.
Despite these setbacks, most non binary go onto college and more likely higher education.
Retail establishments and hotels can create problems.
Jail and prison is less likely.
Job security is much higher for non binary
Non-binaries are heavily FAAB in number. The survey didn't divide the discrimination according to sex at birth. From my own experience, not statistic based, the discrimination for MAAB that openly break gender roles, gender norms, and gender expression are discriminated very very high. The survey however failed to care enough to document the birth differences unlike the MTF and FTM differences which were well documented.
While the entire non-binary population which is 70 to 80% FAAB and 20 to 30% MAAB, is overall like 50% lower discrimination, I believe most of that discrimination is towards 20 to 30% MAAB norm breakers.
p35 non binary are the most likely to be mistreated in k-12.
p37 non binary are more likely to be verbally harassed by students in k-12.
p38 non binary are the least likely to be harassed by teachers during K-12. (most non-binary gender identity emerges ages 18 to 22)
p40 non binary have highest percentage of graduate, and college rates.
p52 non binary are greatly less likely to be "out" at work than the others. 20 to 30% less than FTM and MTF
p53 non binary are half as likely to loose one's job because of gender.
p54 non binary are greatly less likely to be discriminated in being hired.
p55 non binary are less likely to be denied job promotions.
non binary are the least likely to be underemployed.
For example. Page 57 shows MTF and FTM discrimination numbers together, FTM discrimination is lower that MTF in most cases. Then on the other side of the page it shows ALL and GNC (Gender non conforming). most numbers are lower than the other amounts for discrimination. Page 63 shows that GNC use least number of the discrimination avoidance tactics.
When you look at page 131 you see that in retail settings, non binary greatly receives the highest inequal and harassment mistreatment.
p74 non binary, only experience 1/4th amount the refusal health care workers to provide medical service.
p76 non binary are less likely, nearly in half, to postpone preventative medical service (checkups and sickness) because of gender discrimination
p117 non binary are the least likely to experience harassment in finding housing or shelter.
Also on page 132 is Hotel mistreatment, which is higher than MTF and FTM.
Page 133 shows that with government agencies, non binary receive less harassment. This is probably due to FTM and MTF requiring change of name, sex, and record difficulties.
Page 153 shows next to FTM, non binaries have trouble presenting incongruent ID and receiving harassment and voilence. which is normally harassment, ask to leave, or occasionally violence as shown on the graph on the same page.
Page 159 shows only half 52% receive respect from police, whereas 74% of FTM and 61% MTF receive respect from police.
Page 180 non binary are 10% more likely to be assaulted by police than MTF and 50% more likely than MTF.
Page 163 non binary are half as likely to be arrested by police.
Page 166 non binary are half as likely to be harassed in jail and prison.
page 168 169 non binary are 1/6th likely to be assualted or sexually assualted in jail or prison or denied healthcare there.
Kendall where is that published? - It is interesting. Thanks,
Julie
national transgender discrimination survey: injustice at every turn you can find it pretty easy at thetaskforce.org and transequality.org
non-binary are called the gender non conforming, which they define as mostly genderqueer, androgynous, nonbinary, and other misc names. acronym GNC in the data.
Cool, Thanks :)
Eh... only time I was harass was when I was a ginger for being a ginger.
It wasnt bad.
Sometimes I was called a midget or comment my height... but I love my height so it doesnt bother me.
Nope... never harass so far
The only time I had problems with people in the street is when I was 14/15 years old. I dressed completely like a boy at that time and some stupid teenagers took me for a gay boy...
Hopefully that didn't go further than words.
As an mtf with a beard, it's constant. But oddly when I stand up to them and flat out say I am transsexual, the bull stops and respect starts.
I am currently only viewed by others as a cis female, so I get a lot of street harassment. It isn't that I don't have the 'leave me alone you bunch of ***' attitude, it's more that they choose to ignore it and go for it anyway because hey it's 'only a bit of fun'. It mostly isn't calls in the street, I am from England and that doesn't seem to happen here nearly as much in America, but more when people are walking past me or standing nearby and such. But given that most of the comments to me are about my chest/height/'pretty face' it is upsetting in regards to my own view of my gender. I have also socked some people a few times, but only those who have actually touched me/threatened. Street harassment is extremely common and very overlooked in my opinion.
I am female sexed & i look it, generally. Long hair, etc. I'm not bad-looking, and i've been told that i have "good energy" & that there's something attractive about me which has nothing to do with the appearance of my face.
I also have a nice body in femme clothes, and favor rather revealing styles.
So. Harassment.
Catcalling usually doesn't bother me unless it's vulgar. What really bugs me is physical boundary violation. When i'm read as a woman and dressed cute, men will stand very close to me, lean in towards my face, tap my shoulder from behind, reach for my shoulder or even my waist or thigh while speaking to me, etc. They can get *really* close sometimes, especially in bars and on public transit.
When i present more masculine/neutral, this changes. The older men still get too friendly and close. But the younger guys are very very different.
I live in a very trans-aware city. I don't think for a moment that i "pass" as a cis man. People in their 20s & 30s probably realize i am some kind of transmasculine and make an effort to be respectful. So younger men adapt. Even when i carry a cute little purse, i've gotten comments like "sick bag, dude!" If a guy does get creepy, i raise an eyebrow and smirk; 90% of the time he'll jump back and say "oh sorry dude my bad!"
In short, after initial confusion,most younger cis men default to treating me like a guy... that is, we can carry on a decent, friendly, low-stakes conversation as equals. (Even if we are attracted to each other.)
Refreshing as this may feel, i'm discouraged by the implications.
It indicates to me that these men know perfectly well how to treat a clearly female-bodied person with respect, but choose not to, unless & until said person is sufficiently masculine (or is performing masculinity sufficiently). It's representative of a systemic devaluation of femininity. Many trans women, i'm sure, have quite a bit of insight into this from a different angle.
Challenging this genderism is one reason why femme empowerment is so important to me.
Thank you, that is an insightful observation. I appreciate it both for your candor and your solutions. I am glad that the younger generation is less idiotic than mine. Perhaps there is hope.
Peace
Julie