Hi Everyone,
Now I won't be mentioning dosages or brand names in this thread so as to respect the rules.
So today I had an appointment with my Endocrynologist to discuss an issue (well it's actually great, but also not so great). It was the dact I have a 0 T count and no matter how much we reduce things it stays at 0, or basically at an unmeasurable level. I also take estradiol valerate however we have kept that the same, just reduced the dosage. Anyway, that's not the core of this thread as I have faith in my Endo.
So I have been taking Spironolactone as my Anti Androgyn for approx 4.5 months. Clearly by my above statement it's working well, a little too well some may say. Anyway, my Emdo suggested I change to a different Anti Androgyn, Cyproterone Acetate. Which I have agreed with.
Firstly, a hugely more expensive medication, here in Australia anyway. And the other thing is I believe Cyproterone Acetate is used as a chemical castration drug, in a much higher dose.
But my question is whether anyone has had experience with these two and should I be expecting any serious differences in side effects? On the Spironolactone I already have no sex drive, reduced drive and the expected such like reduced body hair and muscle.
Would appreciate any feedback anyone has on these two.
CA is far more commonly used in Aus than spiro. I know what my endo would do. Give me a shot of T.
To bringme up to normal female levels.
I prefer Spiro as I prefer the side effects to those of CA. CA can cause depression, I suffer from it so try to avoid it.
I also know my endo's second and preferred thought, get the nuts off!
Was your baseline T low? If so you would probably need a really low dose of anti androgen n also if Spironolactone has been that effective your endo must be nuts to suggest Cyproterone because it's much more potent n this is also partly because it has a 40 hour half life, I'd be asking for bicalutamide instead, because when it's first taken there's a increase in testosterone before it's blocked n bicalutamide is specifically made to block testosterone, unlike spironolactone n cyproterone, so bicalutamide has less side effects .
I have had bad experiences with both Spironolactone n Cyproterone
1 Spironolactone made me really thin n brakeouts on my nose n strangely made me sniff alot
2 Cyproterone killed my sex drive n caused erectile disfunction
But I'm ok on a very low dose of Spironolactone
Cyproterone n bicalutamide are both damaging to the liver in high doses.
Cyproteronne n Spironolactone may damage the skin even tho they are also used to treat acne n female hair loss.
Spironolactone also decreases the hormone aldosterone in the adrenal glad but not in the nose, by taking up the role of adosterone n also blocking it.
Search for aldosterone on Wikipedia, it's a good read
Thanks girls.
Quote from: Cindy on November 11, 2014, 04:23:26 AM
CA is far more commonly used in Aus than spiro. I know what my endo would do. Give me a shot of T.
To bringme up to normal female levels.
I prefer Spiro as I prefer the side effects to those of CA. CA can cause depression, I suffer from it so try to avoid it.
I also know my endo's second and preferred thought, get the nuts off!
I too was concerned about depression as I've suffered this a long time. Although it's been well under control for many years it was something we discussed. And I've considered your endos second and preferred thought quite seriously in fact, I think I just have too many unanswered questions regarding future SRS. But that's a whole different thread.
Quote from: Clhoe G on November 11, 2014, 04:51:18 AM
I have had bad experiences with both Spironolactone n Cyproterone
1 Spironolactone made me really thin n brakeouts on my nose n strangely made me sniff alot
2 Cyproterone killed my sex drive n caused erectile disfunction
But I'm ok on a very low dose of Spironolactone
Well my results have been good on Spiro, apart from some early electrolyte issues, which are now under control, everything else has been fine. Main thing I hoped was better was the body hair, ie. I hoped it was more gone! My endo has said CA was somewhat more effective in this area. And my sex drive is is already non existent. But I'm single right now and won't be getting into a relationship until I'm living full time so not too concerned.
It is only a low dose of CA he's prescribed so I'm hoping the change is going to be ok. First sign of depression though and I think I'll be ditching the CA!
Quote from: Clhoe G on November 11, 2014, 04:33:34 AM
Was your baseline T low? If so you would probably need a really low dose of anti androgen n also if Spironolactone has been that effective your endo must be nuts to suggest Cyproterone because it's much more potent n this is also partly because it has a 40 hour half life, I'd be asking for bicalutamide instead, because when it's first taken there's a increase in testosterone before it's blocked n bicalutamide is specifically made to block testosterone, unlike spironolactone n cyproterone, so bicalutamide has less side effects .
I never had a baseline taken, please don't ask, I started off being a bad girl, but have redeemed myself. My endo told me off already. I'll take a look at bicalutamide, haven't come across it. Thanks Chloe
All anti androgens will on some level reduce any male hair growth, but Spironolactone and Cyproterone are typically used by women to reduce unwanted hair growth because they are a steriodil drug, made from the hormone 17a hydroxyprogesterone, unlike bicalutamide or flutamide which is especially made to be a male anti androgen, flutamide acts just like bicalutamide by binding to the androgen receptor causing a blocking of testosterone, without decreasing it, this makes testosterone monitoring pointless because testosterone levels won't drop, it will only stop the effects of testosterone.
Spironolactone n Cyproterone will drop testosterone levels.
Also try to avoid Depo provera as it also acts as a steroidil anti androgen
Cyproterone and depo provera is used together to chemicaly castrate male sex offenders.
Quote from: BreezyB on November 11, 2014, 05:09:56 AM
I never had a baseline taken, please don't ask, I started off being a bad girl, but have redeemed myself. My endo told me off already. I'll take a look at bicalutamide, haven't come across it. Thanks Chloe
I see. Yeah I tried self medicating at first, I guess I'm a bad girl to >:-) but I've got to admit PBS rocks :angel:
I see your a subscriber, what do you get on subscription
I am going to switch from spiro to CA too, so I am very much interested in this thread :).
Actually, we give cypro to rapists here to cut the sexual desire, but it won't castrate them (law here does not see it as a punishment). I' been 10 months on cypro after 8 months of, and my T has still been high (the endo won't go over what she considers safe and up to the "toxic" dosage). I will use progesterone to make the libido functional again if needed
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Quote from: Julia (Apple-Whatever) on November 11, 2014, 06:51:17 AM
Actually, we give cypro to rapists here to cut the sexual desire, but it won't castrate them (law here does not see it as a punishment). I' been 10 months on cypro after 8 months of, and my T has still been high (the endo won't go over what she considers safe and up to the "toxic" dosage). I will use progesterone to make the libido functional again if needed
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:P
::)
True but when cyproterone is combined with medroxyprogesteron most commonly depo provera or an LH-FSH agonists to chemically castrate male sex offenders, and it's usually all done by injection for compliance reasons, this is also a requirement in some European county's to get a female birth certificate or any other I.D plus they cannot be married, have children or have any sperm banked.
Well from my personal experiences spiro was completely useless in my body, no matter how high we went it was unable to change my T. I changed to Cyproterone Acetate and with in a month i had unmeasurable levels of T.
Also I found spiro left my skin unbearably dry but had no such side effect with Cyproterone Acetate.
I should also spiro is dirt cheap in comparison to Cyproterone Acetate so that's the one down side.
Quote from: Clhoe G on November 11, 2014, 06:43:31 AM
I see. Yeah I tried self medicating at first, I guess I'm a bad girl to >:-) but I've got to admit PBS rocks :angel:
I see your a subscriber, what do you get on subscription
Yep, we were bad girls >:-) we saw the error of our ways though. For sure the PBS does rock, and even Medicare, I've hit the Aus Medicare Safety Net so getting 85% of all out of pocket expenses back.
For being a subscriber I get the personal satisfaction that I'm helping to sustain a community that helps me. Same reason I do volunteer work in the real world.
Quote from: Julia (Apple-Whatever) on November 11, 2014, 06:51:17 AM
Actually, we give cypro to rapists here to cut the sexual desire, but it won't castrate them (law here does not see it as a punishment). I' been 10 months on cypro after 8 months of, and my T has still been high (the endo won't go over what she considers safe and up to the "toxic" dosage). I will use progesterone to make the libido functional again if needed
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
I think that's the same here in Australia, if you have a dysfunction sexual desire condition you can obtain it via the PBS. I think that's what the medical world are calling the 'condition' a rapist supposedly suffers from, a joke really. And here's me having to pay full price! Well not exactly, me and my endo bent the rules a little so I could get this on the PBS >:-)
And thanks Julia, I didn't realise progesterone increases libido, I shall look into that :icon_pelvic_thrust2:
Quote from: LilDevilOfPrada on November 11, 2014, 09:18:36 AM
Well from my personal experiences spiro was completely useless in my body, no matter how high we went it was unable to change my T. I changed to Cyproterone Acetate and with in a month i had unmeasurable levels of T.
Also I found spiro left my skin unbearably dry but had no such side effect with Cyproterone Acetate.
I should also spiro is dirt cheap in comparison to Cyproterone Acetate so that's the one down side.
My skin was really dry too, I just thought it was one of the joys of being a girl. I combat with a rigorous skin care regime. Yeah, CA is way more expensive, I worked out about 60% more expensive if paying full price. We Spiro has worked well for me so hoping CA will do the same. My endos very experienced (and about 200 years old) in trans care so I'm kinda trusting his recommendations.
Problem is he's changed my meds, now is away for three months having knee surgery, so has left me and my GP, who is also very experienced in HRT and Trans health care, to monitor. Let's hope things are good in four weeks when my next bloods are taken.
Thanks girls, I'll keep you posted on how I go with the Cyproterone Acetate. Going to start it on Friday.
I consider myself a lab rat, so here goes my experience with both:
Spiro:
Negative: Feeling lethargic, tired all the time, leg cramps, headaches, nausea.
Positive: Overall good and tranquil feeling.
Libido: Normal/weak.
Used: 2 years.
Cypro:
Negative: massive depressions, suicidal thoughts. Side-effect stopped after I quit, and reemerged after I started again.
Positive: Not tired, enough energy.
Libido: None.
Used: 2 years.
Cypro definitely floored my T levels. Be cautious about dosage. It needs to be way lower than spiro.