We all know sugar coating happens quite a bit on these forums.
Understandable. If you just had your parents scolding you, you risk losing your partner or you just feel for sharing your story for the first time. The last you want to hear is that you might be doing it wrong.
Although in most cases, are the reactions not understandable? Sure, parents not accepting you suck but before that they loved you for who you are. Even if not in the gender feeling right for you but for who you are as a person. Then your now partner with possible even children threatens to end the relationship. This hurts but you also turned their life upside down with just saying that single thing. I personally don't understand how in many cases the suggestions basically are, stop doing what others want and do what makes you happy. How can you be happy if you can just drop an others feelings and focus fully on yours?
I do believe everyone should do what makes them happy. For one it takes more effort and/or struggles than the other. One might needs to work on their posture, clothes or one should even consider surgery. The other might be perfect at everything but should reconsider the way they tell it to the people around them. We are not perfect and especially when trying to be something we avoided for years, it isn't weird to make (many) mistakes.
On these forums we sugar coat a lot, afraid to hurt the other. We tell you should; just do what makes you happy, that you look fine, perfect even, nothing to worry about. But wouldn't it be more realistic if within the trans community we feel save to suggest others what is best for them with the best intentions, instead of people outside the community to do it with the worst?
Maybe this message comes out of nowhere, but I seen people say their opinions before and get negativity as respond. I wish the best for everyone here, but I don't like sugar coating. I rather was told (happened before these forums) my short leather jacket looked funny on me, instead of being laughed at by people to realize so. That is why I don't sugar coat but still do feel like we can't be completely honest with each other either.
I said it earlier today, we're not a discussion site, we're a support site. This isn't a place to toughen up, it's a place where you can cry because you're broken, and someone will come sit with you.
Hugs, Devlyn
PS My mom always said "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" She never mentioned sugar coating.
Quote from: Kirey on November 19, 2014, 06:48:09 PM
We all know sugar coating happens quite a bit on these forums.
Understandable. If you just had your parents scolding you, you risk losing your partner or you just feel for sharing your story for the first time. The last you want to hear is that you might be doing it wrong.
Although in most cases, are the reactions not understandable? Sure, parents not accepting you suck but before that they loved you for who you are. Even if not in the gender feeling right for you but for who you are as a person. Then your now partner with possible even children threatens to end the relationship. This hurts but you also turned their life upside down with just saying that single thing. I personally don't understand how in many cases the suggestions basically are, stop doing what others want and do what makes you happy. How can you be happy if you can just drop an others feelings and focus fully on yours?
I do believe everyone should do what makes them happy. For one it takes more effort and/or struggles than the other. One might needs to work on their posture, clothes or one should even consider surgery. The other might be perfect at everything but should reconsider the way they tell it to the people around them. We are not perfect and especially when trying to be something we avoided for years, it isn't weird to make (many) mistakes.
On these forums we sugar coat a lot, afraid to hurt the other. We tell you should; just do what makes you happy, that you look fine, perfect even, nothing to worry about. But wouldn't it be more realistic if within the trans community we feel save to suggest others what is best for them with the best intentions, instead of people outside the community to do it with the worst?
Maybe this message comes out of nowhere, but I seen people say their opinions before and get negativity as respond. I wish the best for everyone here, but I don't like sugar coating. I rather was told (happened before these forums) my short leather jacket looked funny on me, instead of being laughed at by people to realize so. That is why I don't sugar coat but still do feel like we can't be completely honest with each other either.
I am there with you girl! I prefer frankness and clarity, the trick is not to cross into an offense. I think we, the transgender folks, tend to overreact, and the majority suffers from the "victimization" syndrome...
You just wait and see how I get scolded for what I said above... even though it is just my perception and opinion....
I certainly won't scold you. They took away my stainless steel Scolder, anyway! :laugh:
I haven't been here very long, but I think that I have noticed what you are saying.
There is a huge difference between honesty and being mean, but I feel that sometimes they are viewed as the same thing here.
Personally if I wore something awful, I'd rather someone tell me instead of just saying it's lovely or whatever. Like I might not care and go for it anyway. But criticism can be very helpful.
When I was wearing a bit of makeup the first few times, one of my friends told me I needed to fix it basically, but in more vulgar terms I guess. But she helped me and such and it's so much better and I love her for it :) Almost everyone else was like yeah, it's fine or whatever.
And sometimes we need to be told to stop acting this way or that. I'm all for looking out for yourself first and foremost, but they're are times when one should consider others in their lives. Definitely agree with the victimization point Peky made. And some of the replies on topics such as that just enable? it. (Enable seems like the wrong word but it's late and I can't think :P )
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on November 19, 2014, 07:08:33 PM
I certainly won't scold you. They took away my stainless steel Scolder, anyway! :laugh:
I will take the "woody" one then... thank you :o
Quote from: Ash on November 19, 2014, 07:09:59 PM
I haven't been here very long, but I think that I have noticed what you are saying.
There is a huge difference between honesty and being mean, but I feel that sometimes they are viewed as the same thing here.
Personally if I wore something awful, I'd rather someone tell me instead of just saying it's lovely or whatever. Like I might not care and go for it anyway. But criticism can be very helpful.
When I was wearing a bit of makeup the first few times, one of my friends told me I needed to fix it basically, but in more vulgar terms I guess. But she helped me and such and it's so much better and I love her for it :) Almost everyone else was like yeah, it's fine or whatever.
And sometimes we need to be told to stop acting this way or that. I'm all for looking out for yourself first and foremost, but they're are times when one should consider others in their lives. Definitely agree with the victimization point Peky made. And some of the replies on topics such as that just enable? it. (Enable seems like the wrong word but it's late and I can't think :P )
and yet, if I am pointed to my "offensive" post... I am willing and ready to apologize, and move on... just like in real life situations...
I don't think I've sugar coated anything. Specifically about my wife - she is upset and I am 100% to blame. Well my mom too if she took DES or similar.
Can not speak for others, but at face value it can be hard to know what someone wants, some want truth, some want lies, while some want just an ear. So without direct guidance most will be careful in what they say. My best recommandation is if you want unadultered, none sugar coated truth, say it. Heck someone may even decide to answer you privately by pm if its too personal. But you will get what you need.
;)
Even if this is a support site, I feel like that cannot come at the expense of our honesty. Frankly, I think we have nothing less than an obligation to offer the truth when someone asks for it. When we offer a lie, even if it is a white lie in order to make someone feel better, we are often doing them more harm than good. Thinking back to the early days of my transition, and how often the truth was glossed over for me, I can't help but think I not have transitioned if I knew the reality I was going to face. Or, perhaps that's an exaggeration, but I would have made an informed decision. As is, I did not make one and while I'm glad about many things that have happened, I still resent the fact that I never made an informed choice.
And so it is with every other issue that comes up on this site: People want to make informed decisions, and by masking the truth, we are preventing them from having the facts they need to make those decisions. I see it especially on the passing threads; we are lying to people, and even if it boasts their self esteem, it is wrong. Of course we should be kind and gentle in offering our guidance, but we have an obligation to be honest. People are looking to us for the truth, and believe that is what they are receiving. Sugarcoating on this site NEEDS TO STOP.
I think a degree of sugar coating is appropriate for a support website, but at the same time letting someone be blissful is not exactly supportive. The middle ground between blind support and indictment is clearly the place people need to be, and I think that you are right that people are not there enough.
Quote from: skin on November 20, 2014, 03:42:07 AM
I think a degree of sugar coating is appropriate for a support website, but at the same time letting someone be blissful is not exactly supportive. The middle ground between blind support and indictment is clearly the place people need to be, and I think that you are right that people are not there enough.
Sugar coating stuff is not support. It's more than possible to give constructive criticism without having to bend the truth by coating it in BS..
We have to remember we are asking others here that most likely are also fragile and give a opinion in line of how they wish to hear.
Opinion are just that. They can help calm fears or fuel fires.
I like honesty because it lets me know where I am. I guess it is the mindset of an engineer. I measure and diagnose things for a living. I need the truth otherwise I'm wasting time. That said I try to be nice about it, meaning I wouldn't say something mean but I would try to offer constructive criticism. It has worked well for me in my professional relationships and it carries well into my personal life. Even my wife is shocked by my honesty but she doesn't think I'm mean or something. If that dress makes you look fat, yes it does and she's more appreciative of an honest "wow, you're hot" when she earned it than fake flattery when she didn't.
there is a world off difference telling some one they are gorgeous and adorable or you look fine and are progressing well, kindness and honesty go a long way
You have two kind of people. The ones telling you, you got something on your face. Or the ones feeling bad to do so and letting you walk around, looking funny all day. It sucks to be told something looks off for a moment but isn't it better to be told beforehand than to be looked funny at all day?
I am not sure why I made this thread. Not to rebel and to change how the website works. Mostly to see what other people think of this subject. It is nice to have a website around where people can feel safe. Get support and talk to someone as if someone stands or sits beside them. Holding their hand. But support isn't giving by simply agreeing with what the other says or shows. Neither by bluntly putting your opinion out there and crushing someones dream.
To me some things don't add up on this website. On one hand many members tell the others; do what makes you happy. You look great, pass-able, without doubt. You will be fine. On the other hand, almost all new threads are about the opposite, unhappy situations and things going wrong. It is fine to give positive criticism. To tell someone everything will be fine and to be a listening ear. But don't close your and their eyes for the negativity either. Very bluntly put, being a transgender is in most cases a harsh life with many struggles and HRT doesn't automatically makes it all easier. So don't make it seem as if HRT is 'the' way out. I think it would be a good thing if it is also a possibility to tell someone what they are doing might not be the best decision or suggest them a different path. Without having to defend yourself after.
And to randomly put this out there which is pretty unrelated to this I think :P. But I also see many say that transition is not something to be proud of. It wasn't an option. It was either this or dying. That is still an option. If you choose to continue living and go trough all the struggles to be happy then I think you can be pretty proud at yourself. Just saying!
Maybe I am reflecting this too much on myself also and I realize we don't all handle everything in the same way. I personally always heard how hard something was only to find the happy stuff coming after the struggles. I just don't believe you help anyone just by telling the good news when we are talking about supporting others.
Remember, people have very different views of what is beauty. When someone "sugar coats" in your words a member asking for advice, they may really see that beauty honestly. We all have views and opinions and to invalidate what another person says is judgment on that person and every one else who agrees with them. :)
I don't sugar coat anything. At least not intentionally.
But I would say that worrying over what others think is not healthy. In fact, a great deal of my own therapy has involved me "letting go". Letting go of changing my spouse's mind. Letting go of changing my son's mind. Letting go of trying to save my marriage once my spouse said it was over. Letting go of others dictating how I had to present and behave.
I can only be responsible for me. If someone decides to be hurt by what I said, that's their choice. Now I do try to be tactful. I do try to choose my words carefully. But I've had to learn to not be co-dependent, to stand up for myself, to make my own choices, and to accept when others walk away from me because they do not accept my choices. That's been painful but it's also been liberating because I now no longer see myself as worthless outside the context of husband and father. I am a human being. I am a woman. I am worthy in my own right of life, love, and happiness.
one thing , I don't think people benefit from getting their psychotherapy from a impersonal, unaccountable public forum, help in getting directions to professionals and some shoulders to cry on, but psychotherapy no.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on November 20, 2014, 10:37:54 AM
Remember, people have very different views of what is beauty. When someone "sugar coats" in your words a member asking for advice, they may really see that beauty honestly. We all have views and opinions and to invalidate what another person says is judgment on that person and every one else who agrees with them. :)
Exactly! Opinions are just that, opinions and the thoughts belong the particular individual only. What is beautiful to one person isn't always the same to another. We all need to keep this in mind when we post or reply to a post.
Quote from: ImagineKate on November 19, 2014, 07:22:53 PM
I don't think I've sugar coated anything. Specifically about my wife - she is upset and I am 100% to blame. Well my mom too if she took DES or similar.
Sidetrack here - you are not to blame. You made a decision. She then made a decision in light of your decision.
This was her choice! You didn't "force" her to make that choice. You didn't tell her she had to make that specific choice. She
chose to be upset.
This was one of the biggest things that my therapist had to ram into my head again and again. We cannot control the actions of others But each of us as individuals has a choice - to allow that other person to upset us or not.
If your wife is upset, it's because she chose to be upset. Perhaps not fully consciously, but it's still her choice. She could have chose otherwise but didn't.
(I am putting this out there publicly because so many trans people go through this, blaming themselves for the choices that others make when the trans person make a choice, usually a medically advised choice, about their own lives.)
Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of sugar coating.
So if someone makes fun of you on the streets or discriminates you, it is your own choice to be bothered by it?
Weird theory..
...Really really hope you're being sarcastic. Personally I'm not so much bothered by these microagressions as the effect my transness may or may not have on the larger scheme of things as they relate to my own life. Relationships are a lit harder to come by, for example. As problematic as harassment is, for me personally that doesn't get to me.
What I think we tend to downplay here and in many conversations about transitioning are the major yet less overt effects that tend to come along with transitioning. People told me that I might get looks, or even called at from time to time. Nobody told me that two and a half years into my transition I still haven't been in a relationship (except for one, which was quite toxic). So, while it's easy to overlook how we face antagonism, what isn't so easy is that transitioning can be extremely isolating, if you don't have a good support network going in. Isolating both because of people's judgements, but also the self-perpetuating cycle of shame and depression that isolation breeds.
Quote from: Kirey on November 23, 2014, 03:50:52 PM
So if someone makes fun of you on the streets or discriminates you, it is your own choice to be bothered by it?
Quite simply, YES! I get back at them by being truly free and happy and no one will take that from me with words. :)
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 23, 2014, 04:54:00 PM
...Really really hope you're being sarcastic. Personally I'm not so much bothered by these microagressions as the effect my transness may or may not have on the larger scheme of things as they relate to my own life. Relationships are a lit harder to come by, for example. As problematic as harassment is, for me personally that doesn't get to me.
What I think we tend to downplay here and in many conversations about transitioning are the major yet less overt effects that tend to come along with transitioning. People told me that I might get looks, or even called at from time to time. Nobody told me that two and a half years into my transition I still haven't been in a relationship (except for one, which was quite toxic). So, while it's easy to overlook how we face antagonism, what isn't so easy is that transitioning can be extremely isolating, if you don't have a good support network going in. Isolating both because of people's judgements, but also the self-perpetuating cycle of shame and depression that isolation breeds.
If I was being sarcastic? I don't understand o.O?
Oh, hahaha, meant to say hope you wern't; it sounded a bit like you were! Sorry, I'm on finals and my words seem to be less eliquant than usual.
so, I'm kind of curious , so , I guess we're talking about replies as in the case of the before and after pics. so we have some one who has talked of severe depression and dysphoria in the past and decides to post some pics. the person in question could be 18 or 60 or any where in between. the person has been on HRT for 9 months . but has only a few changes that are barely noticeable and they ask whether there is a chance to pass. do you sugar coat , be brutally honest or some where in between.. I try to be kind and benign.
Yes, being upset is a choice. Better to channel that energy into positive actions for yourself, to reflect on why that other person made a nasty remark and what that says about them (not you!), or some other path.
But once you realize that the only person who can allow others to upset your emotional state is you, you gain a great deal of personal power over situations.
Now emotional encounters aren't physical encounters. If someone attacks you, then of course they are to blame for that. But at the emotional level, we always have a choice - to be upset or react in a different manner. Our inclination may be to get upset but that doesn't mean we lack a choice. It also means we were trained to react by becoming upset instead of reacting differently.
I'd tell them the truth-that it will be hard-but I'd say it kindly.
I think it is very important to be honest, but it is even more important to be honest and up lifting. If you cant figure out anything to say that wont damage someones self-esteem it is better to not comment. If you don't think someone passes or looks good, please don't tear them down. Many of us struggle with confidence and when we get positive feedback on our pictures it feels really good.
with that being said don't tell someone they are a 100% pass if you really don't believe that as I agree that could be bad for someone. A little sugar coating is ok imo. just too much is bad for that person.
Quote from: Kirey on November 23, 2014, 03:50:52 PM
So if someone makes fun of you on the streets or discriminates you, it is your own choice to be bothered by it?
Weird theory..
I do not agree with this either. no one is in complete control of their emotions. You have control of how act but not your emotions. So if someone calls you a ->-bleeped-<-, you can not control the way that it makes you feel but you can control your response.
I'm not saying we ought to tear anyone down...just that everyone here needs to have realistic expectations. I didn't...I expected that I would be desirable, able to fit in, and I don't have that luxery after years of hrt. If I had known what my chances really were, I would not have started transitioning so quickly...perhaps ever. So, when people are considering such major decisions, it's important that we tell them the truth. I belive that.
I agree 100% that sugar coating sucks. It isn't support and it doesn't help anyone. See I know there is a lot of it on this site people don't like to say bad things and I worry about it. For example I am always in the voice thread, it took me a long long time to get where I am on that. I do think I actually sound kinda decent now but I had to get a *lot* of people to say that before I believed it even a little cause I know what people are like on this site.
But you know, if I was told it was good when it wasn't and went out and used it and it went horribly wrong and I was humiliated, then I would be done, for a long time. That is a failing on my part but I am sure that is what I would end up doing. That aint support.
This is why people like Hanazono are awesome!
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 23, 2014, 09:17:17 PM
I'm not saying we ought to tear anyone down...just that everyone here needs to have realistic expectations. I didn't...I expected that I would be desirable, able to fit in, and I don't have that luxery after years of hrt. If I had known what my chances really were, I would not have started transitioning so quickly...perhaps ever. So, when people are considering such major decisions, it's important that we tell them the truth. I belive that.
I agree with this. We all imagine our self passing 100 percent and looing like a beautiful person once we transition, and unfortunately we rarely meet our expectations. I don't know how my transition is gonna go, but I know before I became active on this site I was pretty hopeless because I thought it was a sure thing that I would lose my family, and that I would never look completely cis. When I really felt that hopeless is when I was really a danger to myself so yes the sugar coating get outta hand here but it can definitely help with self esteem. it has for me...
I usually try to say something nice to everyone. If it is a "do I pass?" thread I'm replying to depending on the post I'm answering I still say something positive but also include what IMHO would make improvements to the individuals appearance whether it be a makeup change or outfit advice. In this way I still feel good about being positive, while also helping the person correct what may be hurting their appearance. And that is not sugar coating.
You can be positive and still suggest area's for improvement to help a person. You don't need to be negative. Many of our members are fragile and need to hear that positivity in your words to them.
And yet there are posts I feel I can't reply to because I don't have anything nice to say. In those instances, I feel it best to just not reply. As the old saying goes; "if you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." And in many of those instances somebody else thinks of something that can help the person. So you see you can be nice, positive, and helpful at the same time without sugar coating. You only need to choose your words wisely.
Peace everyone! :icon_bunch:
Ally :icon_flower:
Quote from: stephaniec on November 23, 2014, 07:26:26 PM
so, I'm kind of curious , so , I guess we're talking about replies as in the case of the before and after pics. so we have some one who has talked of severe depression and dysphoria in the past and decides to post some pics. the person in question could be 18 or 60 or any where in between. the person has been on HRT for 9 months . but has only a few changes that are barely noticeable and they ask whether there is a chance to pass. do you sugar coat , be brutally honest or some where in between.. I try to be kind and benign.
It depends on the person and the situation. You will never hear me bash someone into depression. But neither will I tell someone they look fabulous in a dress which makes them look fat. Besides, to me it isn't such a big deal whether someone passes or not. It matters if the transition is making them happy and that is often a lot more noticeable then whether they look feminine or masculine. But to answer that question, I would tell what I see, depending if she looks happy or not mention the feeling I see behind the picture and if needed give suggestions about how she could be happier with herself if not yet.
Many people on pass threads who show pictures seem to be unsure and thus a bit sad. Like 80% of the people would 'pass' if they smile, but the unhappiness and confusing comes trough and thus it looks like someone is still transitioning/in the middle of a change. Had a discussion about it already before but just to put my statement down here again; Passing is overrated.
Quote from: LizMarie on November 23, 2014, 07:30:02 PM
Yes, being upset is a choice. Better to channel that energy into positive actions for yourself, to reflect on why that other person made a nasty remark and what that says about them (not you!), or some other path.
I agree you can learn to deal with things, but having emotions is a given and thus so is being upset, happy, frustrated, sad or whatever kind of emotion. Having emotions is an instinct so putting that being upset is a choice.. is just silly. Unless you are telling me you never been angry, sad, disappointed or any of the negative, ever? But please do write a book about it then because it could change the world.
As example; Gender dysphoria is a feeling from way deeper within. You have it or you don't. You deal with it or you don't, but you do not have an option in feeling it or not you only have an option as of how you deal with it. The same with any kind of emotion/thought.
Quote from: Hanazono on November 24, 2014, 01:09:40 AM
every system produces a different response given the same input. so we do have the power to respond to events in our own unique way
You indeed do choose how you cope and react, but not how you feel.
Besides, if it is a reason to choose how we feel, why do people even sugar coat in the first place? Making no sense.
So why would it not be better to take the "bitter medicine", (TRUTH), and possibly learn and/or improve oneself...than to be limited to that sickening sweet "sugar pill" in the form of cloying "support".
Yes, I should clarify. There are things that will touch a nerve, ignite a feeling, but it is what we do with those feelings, how we react, that we control.
I can choose to express being upset or I can step back (internally), reassess the situation, and decide if another response is appropriate. And personally, I find that when I deliberately stop and examine that feeling, that the feeling often abates. And when it doesn't, I can instead channel it into appropriate action rather than anger or sadness or guilt (which is what the one inciting that feeling wants).
Quote from: LizMarie on November 24, 2014, 02:52:47 PM
Yes, I should clarify. There are things that will touch a nerve, ignite a feeling, but it is what we do with those feelings, how we react, that we control.
I can choose to express being upset or I can step back (internally), reassess the situation, and decide if another response is appropriate. And personally, I find that when I deliberately stop and examine that feeling, that the feeling often abates. And when it doesn't, I can instead channel it into appropriate action rather than anger or sadness or guilt (which is what the one inciting that feeling wants).
when you explain it this way I agree completely.