I am listening to a transgender podcast, (audio) and the guest is introduced as (not her real name) Linda Jones, the woman strats talking and the voice is unequivocally male, as I listen it is impossible to conjure up anything but the image of a man talking. Although it doesn't make me uncomfortable, I would say I found it unsettling and I had a hard time not judging this woman as to her wisdom of doing a radio interview with a voice that people are going to hear as male.
What does bother me is that I feel my attitude regarding her was judgmental and transphobic. So I thought I would put it nout there and see what others think.
In the case of a radio interview, where the voice is very important, I think that she lacked introspection and judgement to go there and I myself would not be too happy about this, because it promotes the man-in-dress view in the public (though it sure helps those that do not correspond to this stereotype remain stealth...). Its not because your a TS, that calling into question any judgement call by them, or questioning their self-awareness, should not be done. Plenty of normal people are idiots and I am not afraid to say so.
Melissa,
We all have our own type of prejudices and it is all right. In your mind you have this thought of a guy, with I assume a womans name, and you can't just listen to what she has to say without putting a gender to her. There are a lot of GG's out there who have deep voices. You should just listen to what they have to say and don't worry about the gender, does it make a difference? I hope not.
Sheila
Sheila, there is a difference between a deep male voice and deep female voice.
Its quite easy to see the difference, the timbre is quite different (subarmonics of the main pitch).
Some people don't realize how manly their voices are or they don't care.
Well, If they're going into a public space like this, not caring lack self-awareness.
The voice I heard was unequivocally male and, believe me, that is what everyone else heard. There didn't seem to be any effort on her part to sound anything but a man.
My voice isn't perfect but I think it is better than most (when I am "on" anyway) Still, I myself would not do a radio interview at this point.
Posted on: August 14, 2007, 03:10:10 PM
Quote from: Keira on August 14, 2007, 02:53:57 PM
In the case of a radio interview, where the voice is very important, I think that she lacked introspection and judgement to go there and I myself would not be too happy about this, because it promotes the man-in-dress view in the public (though it sure helps those that do not correspond to this stereotype remain stealth...). Its not because your a TS, that calling into question any judgement call by them, or questioning their self-awareness, should not be done. Plenty of normal people are idiots and I am not afraid to say so.
Whew! Thanks K!
In some ways, I'd rather hear an M2F just speak in her original bass voice than an obviously breathy fake falsetto expending WAY too much effort to sound stereotypically feminine... :P
Zythyra
I noticed voice more than most things last May when my husband and I attended an MFT conference attended primarily by crossdressers. It had been 4 years since we'd been around a group of CDs, and it seemed so strange that many made no effort to modify their speech or behavior.
Perhaps if one is just visiting the other gender for a few days or hours, one isn't concerned with voice, walk, slouching, toe direction in the ladies room, etc. That's a shame because the public must see more Cds IRL than TS folks.
I'd be interested to hear what some of our CD members think.
Robyn
Quote from: y2gender on August 15, 2007, 09:50:57 PM
In some ways, I'd rather hear an M2F just speak in her original bass voice than an obviously breathy fake falsetto expending WAY too much effort to sound stereotypically feminine... :P
Zythyra
On the radio though, the image I would get is that of a transwoman, not a man. You hear a man's voice and all you see is a man.
QuoteOn the radio though, the image I would get is that of a transwoman, not a man. You hear a man's voice and all you see is a man.
Actually, all I see is the radio >:D
Seriously though, yes, voice is an obvious gender marker. Sometimes though, people go overboard trying too hard, and to me that sounds worse than just hearing a booming bass voice...
Zythyra
I believe that it is human nature to carry a prejudice. I admit that I feel similarly when I see or hear one of these interviews. But then I think and remember one of my dearest friends in the world. She has never been able to get the voice right. Twenty years after surgery, she still has this trait. She's tried. She's tried hard. My heart bleeds for her sometimes.
So, when I hear one of these interviews, my initial thoughts are in the same vein. And then they turn to sadness, hurting for the person being interviewed. And before you know it, I'm crying and have to turn it off. This sadness is more than I can bear. How is that for having this prejudice.
Yes, I am prejudiced. And sometimes it turns my stomach that I feel this way. How cruel this world is to some of us.
I'm sorry Melissa. I wish I hadn't read this thread. Now I feel like the world's greatest bigot. Perhaps just by knowing what our gut reactions are and realizing what we are feeling is a start. Maybe the way the world comes to terms with all of this needs to start with us.
Cindi
Maybe it's a lesson to people like me that if we want to be perceived as women, we need to pay attention not only to our appearance but to the way we speak. I've put alot of effort into my voice recently and I'm pleased because I 'm making progress - not perfect yet because I tend to do silly reflex things like clear my throat or cough in my deeper voice, but I think I'm getting the pitch and resonance much better than when I started. It's not just that though, it's so hard to get into the habit of speaking GIRL language and stop speaking MAN language, especially after having masqueraded as a man for most of my life....know what I mean? Maybe I'll put something on youtube so you can hear me, I'll let you know if I do! BUT....I'm not ready to do radio interviews.....YET!
And getting back to the topic, it's only transphobic if you wouldn't have the same feelings about ANY woman who spoke like a man. OMG if I had been born a woman and I spoke like a man I'd have to do something about it, take elocution lessons or something. Definitely.
Quote from: y2gender on August 15, 2007, 09:50:57 PM
In some ways, I'd rather hear an M2F just speak in her original bass voice than an obviously breathy fake falsetto expending WAY too much effort to sound stereotypically feminine... :P
Zythyra
I agree for the most part with this statement. My mother had a deep voice and I sound very much like her. I talk on the phone all day at work and have talked to many GG women with much deeper voices than most men.
However,at the same time if the voice was that of say..Barry White or Isaac Hayes then I would be a little disturbed about it!
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 14, 2007, 02:37:29 PM
I am listening to a transgender podcast, (audio) and the guest is introduced as (not her real name) Linda Jones, the woman strats talking and the voice is unequivocally male, as I listen it is impossible to conjure up anything but the image of a man talking. Although it doesn't make me uncomfortable, I would say I found it unsettling and I had a hard time not judging this woman as to her wisdom of doing a radio interview with a voice that people are going to hear as male.
What does bother me is that I feel my attitude regarding her was judgmental and transphobic. So I thought I would put it out there and see what others think.
Funny, I didn't recall even mentioning pitch, and now I see I didn't mention pitch. I said the voice was unequivocally male. Anyone who has made ANY effort to find her feminine voice should know that it is not all about pitch. Very few females speak in a much lower pitch than the average male BTW and those that do usually speak with feminine resonance, timbre, pace, articulation and context.
Yes, I feel better that other people feel the way I do. I think it is a normal reaction, especially since I would probably avoid radio myself until I have more confidence. I have seen myself on TV and the voice with the visual is a woman but the voice alone many times gets clocked as male. (Which makes me feel pretty good that the visual trumps the not perfect auditory)
It isnt transphobic in my view. I would react the same way. Some TG women I know dont care to improve their voice. That bothers me. Attitude is not whats needed when you want the world to see you as you wish to be seen. its your responsibility to adjust to the norms of society. it isnt society's responsibility to adjust to yours.
It is more like how we see ourselves, isn't it? When I know if I hear myself on the radio and hear a man, I will not be pleased, I may be my biggest critic, people keep telling me my voice is good, my therapist tells me "there is nothing wrong with your voice." But I have not found my true feminine speaking voice yet. Not the one that suits me.
Hey Melissa,
Thanks for bringing this up in the way that you have. It's really good of you to admit having these kinds of feelings, because I think we all do, at least at times. Just the fact that you are willing to admit having these feelings and want to do something about it speaks volumes about where you are on your journey.
I don't know if anyone caught that program about transsexuals in prison, but there was this one MtF that was in prison in Idaho. She looked and sounded very manly and knew it. She had been blacklisted in the oil field where she had worked as a roughneck. She decided her only choice was to go to LA and prostitute herself, but soon found out she was too old and too manly.
The point is, I caught myself being prejudice against her, as if her dysphoria was not valid because she was so manly. In the end I really felt bad for her and ashamed of myself. I am sure many people see me the same way. Anyway, thanks for bringing it up.
Love always,
Elizabeth
kk, Im not actualy going to comment on the topic of this topic LoL....
Pitch has nothing to do with how male or female a voice sounds... the technical term is resonant harmonics... if it were something simple there wouldnt be hundreds if not thousands of us trying to learn a voice... and there wouldnt be dosens of how two books and CDs out there to burn our money, and voice theripists wouldnt have any TS customers...
The resonant harmonics are a dead give away... every time, all the time... and very hard to learn to controll... :)
KK, Ive given my two cents worth... have a good night.
Whoa!!!! I never said anything about shame, that word is not even in my vocabulary. I only made the point that I wouldn't be happy hearing my voice on a podcast without seeing the whole package.
Posted on: August 17, 2007, 11:03:23 PM
Quote from: LynnER on August 17, 2007, 09:26:51 PM
kk, Im not actualy going to comment on the topic of this topic LoL....
Pitch has nothing to do with how male or female a voice sounds...
That is obviously the case. Pitch is the first thing a therapist will focus on, then resonance, pace, timbre, context, etc.
I think its also about judgement, I think someone who doesn't care how their voice will come off on radio have a poor judgement. Plenty of radio people work on their voices, there is a reason for it.
Some TS ARE delusional about their ability to blend, how they are perceived, etc.
If a person doesn't care if they come off as a man on a radio show about her as a TS, what does it say about her, what do other women who listen in will think, will they all be generous souls?
I hear the word bigoted, phobic, etc, said more often in this group than anywhere else! I think that even people are accepting of you as a human being, that doesn't mean they will accept you as anything you purport to be just because you think so (because people are not mind readers in general).
I hear often here that, oh lets just ask that person about X, why does she go on radio with a manly voice, or learn more about here because she's doing some gender bending stuff; why on earth would I do that with that person and not another? Do I ask a random person I make a snap judgement about because of how they present themselves to expose all their motivations for doing so, so I can maybe understand them... What if I think their motivations are total crap, should I be their psychologist and dig where they don't even dare go...
People do stupid thing, and I don't think it reflects on me at all to point that up; I do so many of those myself and I'm sure plenty of people will make judgement on me.
How we present ourselves is the first level of communication, well before people can learn about what kind of existential angst that drive us; not caring about that puts a barrier between us and people before even they can learn about us on a more personal level. Then, we wonder what happened and mope about this wondering why the world is soooo cruel, soooo unfair; better reaction would be to work on the voice, the presentation and not be a victim. By the way, I've got plenty of experience dealing with TS in person, so I know what I'm talking about.
I remember Renee Richards commenting in her autobiography about her own TS prejudice. She was in the waiting room of a TS therapist's office and she looked around and wondered how she could be part of such a group. I've often wondered if that's the reason TS's don't usually organize socially, out in the open, like gay groups. Do we see our own "faults" in other TS's? How many TS's are secretly transphobic?
I admit that I've shared uneasy feelings towards some other TS's. There was a TS in a TS group once who was built like a football player but loved to wear chiffon dresses and heels. Others in the group, as has been said in other posts, made no effort to soften their very bassy voices. It made no sense to me and I realized that the way they presented themselves made me feel threatened -- society would equate me as being in the same box as the Jerry Springer-type TS's.
After one of these encounters at the TS group, I cried on my friend's shoulder, pleading, "Was I going to look like that after transitioning?" She assured me that I looked fine and sounded feminine.
For me, it was more of a FEAR thing than a transphobic thing. Was I as obvious as these others? Years of living as a woman has helped dispel most of those fears.
Teri Anne
Quote from: Megan on August 16, 2007, 11:52:12 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 14, 2007, 02:37:29 PM
...What does bother me is that I feel my attitude regarding her was judgmental and transphobic. So I thought I would put it out there and see what others think.
Melissa,
I overheard a podcast being recorded on August 11, and someone (that I know) was speaking in her male voice--the only voice she uses. Actually, and worse yet, I think it might have been her "radio voice." I reacted the same way you did, and I wondered what listeners would think. Wouldn't it be funny if it were the same podcast?
This person could, I imagine, make anyone feel homophobic. I don't feel badly for feeling that way, and I don't see why you should either if you heard something like I heard.
I regard to this Megan,
I really hope that you are not all talking about the podcasts that my partner and I produce. Since we recorded a session at an event that you go to.... on August 11. Though we didn't interview anyone by that name.
Since I am a podcaster, I have to say that you really have to understand just how hard it is to get on the air and say something worth while. I personaly know that the podcast that myself and my partener have produced has educated a lot of our friends, and many people who knew about what we were going through and were afraid to ask.
A VOICE is what the trans world needs, and I stand proudly behind ANYONE who speaks out on radio, TV, or whatever! No matter what, there will always be women in our community who can't adapt their voice, and this was even mentioned by the woman who we were interviewing. Male puberty does a lot of damage, some of which can never be reversed. There are some that are lucky, but not everyone.
How as a community can you condemn someone who is speaking up for you! Whoever this person was, that you are putting down for having a male voice, they are at least informing the public. Can you say the same?
Mila
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 14, 2007, 02:37:29 PM
I am listening to a transgender podcast, (audio) and the guest is introduced as (not her real name) Linda Jones, the woman strats talking and the voice is unequivocally male, as I listen it is impossible to conjure up anything but the image of a man talking. Although it doesn't make me uncomfortable, I would say I found it unsettling and I had a hard time not judging this woman as to her wisdom of doing a radio interview with a voice that people are going to hear as male.
What does bother me is that I feel my attitude regarding her was judgmental and transphobic. So I thought I would put it nout there and see what others think.
Hi, Melissa 90299;
Are you referring to this podcast (http://www.trans-ponder.com/episodes/episode004.mp3)? This is my real voice. A brand new girl (Jessica) joined the show.
Is this what you and Megan are referring to? :angel:
Karen
I suppose my feeling is the message is more important than the voice that carries it.
Not many transgender women have the courage to speak up at all. I disagree with the
attitude that if someone doesn't yet have (or many never have) a passable voice then they
need to shut up and stay invisible.
When we interview someone for our podcast it is not because, "Oh they sound sooooo pretty!" its because they have an important and interesting story to tell.
Some transgender women work long and hard on their voice without ever achieving broadcast quality. The first transgender woman who took the time and effort to befriend me when I was just starting out still gets mistaken as a man on the phone.
I feel if one has initial reaction was a bit phobic and judgmental and perhaps further introspection in yourself
would help you figure why you had such a strongly negative "knee-jerk" reaction. It would be a sad day when we cannot accept all trans persons openly and no one should be ostracized for failing to live up to someone's personal standards.... We all have our failings and virtues and should not project them onto others.
Quote from: Elizabeth on August 17, 2007, 09:23:09 PM
I don't know if anyone caught that program about transsexuals in prison, but there was this one MtF that was in prison in Idaho. She looked and sounded very manly and knew it. She had been blacklisted in the oil field where she had worked as a roughneck. She decided her only choice was to go to LA and prostitute herself, but soon found out she was too old and too manly.
The point is, I caught myself being prejudice against her, as if her dysphoria was not valid because she was so manly. In the end I really felt bad for her and ashamed of myself. I am sure many people see me the same way. Anyway, thanks for bringing it up.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Elizabeth, I did see this episode and I found myself sobbing uncontrollably for her. What a terrible hand she's had to deal with.
Cindi
Quote from: Jaynatopia on August 19, 2007, 12:46:54 PM
I suppose my feeling is the message is more important than the voice that carries it.
Not many transgender women have the courage to speak up at all. I disagree with the
attitude that if someone doesn't yet have (or many never have) a passable voice then they
need to shut up and stay invisible.
You are re-framing the situation. This was a person who spoke like a man and made no effort at all to sound anything but. People like that representing us are doing the community no favors, they are just confirming the "man in the dress" myth.
Posted on: August 19, 2007, 05:41:13 PM
Quote from: Karen on August 19, 2007, 12:26:55 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 14, 2007, 02:37:29 PM
I am listening to a transgender podcast, (audio) and the guest is introduced as (not her real name) Linda Jones, the woman strats talking and the voice is unequivocally male, as I listen it is impossible to conjure up anything but the image of a man talking. Although it doesn't make me uncomfortable, I would say I found it unsettling and I had a hard time not judging this woman as to her wisdom of doing a radio interview with a voice that people are going to hear as male.
What does bother me is that I feel my attitude regarding her was judgmental and transphobic. So I thought I would put it nout there and see what others think.
Hi, Melissa 90299;
Are you referring to this podcast (http://www.trans-ponder.com/episodes/episode004.mp3)? This is my real voice. A brand new girl (Jessica) joined the show.
Is this what you and Megan are referring to? :angel:
Karen
No!
Does that sound like someone who is making NO EFFORT at sounding female to you? (That is why communication is sooooooo difficyult on this forum) That voice is far from perfect but certainly not what I would think anyone with an ear would categorize as totally male.
QuoteYou are re-framing the situation. This was a person who spoke like a man and made no effort at all to sound anything but. People like that representing us are doing the community no favors, they are just confirming the "man in the dress" myth.
.... and how shallow we are if we can't rise above this ....
I'm truly ashamed of the callousness and contempt we still carry for one another.
Cindi
It's presumably human nature to see what we're insecure about in others. Without it, love stories in movies or in songs wouldn't seem so PERSONAL to us -- something we can relate to. We can feel their pain.
And when we feel that pain, we say to ourselves, "Oh, yeah. I can identify with that."
So maybe it's as Cindi suggests: "I found myself sobbing uncontrollably for her. What a terrible hand she's had to deal with."
What we feel isn't transphobia, but transpain.
Teri Anne
Why would you or anyone else care what this person sounds like. You should listen to the message that she has to say and not the tone or how feminine, or lack of, her voice sounds. I just feel very sorry for some who put how much a person is on the inside by looking at their outward appearance. I really don't like it when I feel that way, but would never ever say or try to belittle anyone who doesn't look 100% Barbie. We are all different, so try to accept the diversity. I will get of my soap mountain now. This just upsets me to no end. Would you rather they choke down a .45 calibur bullet?
Sheila
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 19, 2007, 05:48:12 PM
People like that representing us are doing the community no favors...
Representing... who? What "community?"
I just don't think in these terms. No one is "representing" me. Being TS isn't a "lifestyle" for me, or a belief system to be "represented." And it's *especially* not some sort of competition to see who's the most "representative." It's just something I gotta deal with. Others do too, in whatever way they find best for them.
~Kate~
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 19, 2007, 05:50:37 PM
QuoteYou are re-framing the situation. This was a person who spoke like a man and made no effort at all to sound anything but. People like that representing us are doing the community no favors, they are just confirming the "man in the dress" myth.
.... and how shallow we are if we can't rise above this ....
I'm truly ashamed of the callousness and contempt we still carry for one another.
Cindi
I am puzzled that people ascribe emotions that aren't there to a judgment I made. I feel, and others agree, that a woman who sounds unequivocally male, should avoid telephone interviews. It really permeates a myth that is not productive, IMO. There is no contempt or callousness involved here.
Posted on: August 19, 2007, 06:12:12 PM
Quote from: Kate on August 19, 2007, 06:07:41 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 19, 2007, 05:48:12 PM
People like that representing us are doing the community no favors...
Representing... who? What "community?"
I just don't think in these terms. No one is "representing" me. Being TS isn't a "lifestyle" for me, or a belief system to be "represented." And it's *especially* not some sort of competition to see who's the most "representative." It's just something I gotta deal with. Others do too, in whatever way they find best for them.
~Kate~
Whether you like it or not, someone who is a trans-activist and gives radio interviews is representing us, the trans community. It's like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, like it or not, represent the black community. Being African-American isn't a lifestyle or a belief system either and there are a lot of blackfolk who criticize Jackson, Sharpton and others. Of course, they don't speak for all balck people but they speak for the "community" in a broad sense.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 19, 2007, 06:12:12 PM
I feel, and others agree, that a woman who sounds unequivocally male, should avoid telephone interviews.
Why?
Should less-attractive TSs avoid TV appearances then too? Shall we establish a committee to approve who does and doesn't speak for "us?"
I can't believe we're condoning censoring people because of our OWN projected insecurities. If someone embarasses us, IMHO the problem lies within.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on August 19, 2007, 06:17:45 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 19, 2007, 06:12:12 PM
I feel, and others agree, that a woman who sounds unequivocally male, should avoid telephone interviews.
Why?
Should less-attractive TSs avoid TV appearances then too? Shall we establish a committee to approve who does and doesn't speak for "us?"
I can't believe we're condoning censoring people because of our OWN projected insecurities. If someone embarasses us, IMHO the problem lies within.
~Kate~
Never said I was embarrassed, Kate. You are projecting your insecurity on men actually. As good as my voice is, I would not do a radio interview now (probably six months from now) and certainly not one representing a transgender organization. That is not insecurity, it is knowing one's limitations. It's like I wouldn't try to get an audition for a gig as a mezzo-soprano at the MET or as a dancer for the SF Ballet.
And no, someone who is a man in a dress shouldn't go on TV representing us either. No one is censoring any one Kate, as much as you seem to want to create the drama that there is. We are criticizing the person's judgment. And based on the feedback, it's not transphobic, it's not projecting insecurity, it's not callous, or anything else. It is a little judgmental but I feel it is warranted criticism.
I believe that Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton do a wonderful job in representing equal rights for us. Remember, it is equal rights we want. I don't want trans rights only. For that would do no good to the <take your pick> minority.
There are people who will go publicly go to bat for specific causes. And for that I give them credit. I could care less what they look like or sound like. Yes, there is a public perception issue to contend with. I can guarantee you they won't learn to deal with it until we can. It is not about public perception. It is about equal rights.
As far as personal discomfort goes.... I believe I have addressed this already in this thread.
Melissa, if you were to appear in a public venue, I would feel the same way. It wouldn't matter to me how you looked or sounded. If you were to stand up for equal rights, then I'd be behind you all the way. I wouldn't care what you looked like or sounded like. I would tend to discount others' stories of the event. I'd want to hear you speak your mind.
Cindi
Like Cindy Sheehan?
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 19, 2007, 06:30:56 PM
It's like I wouldn't try to get an audition for a gig as a mezzo-soprano at the MET or as a dancer for the SF Ballet.
I didn't know anyone was "auditioning" for anything? Why does anyone need approval, be it yours or anyone else's?
Again, this isn't about perfecting a role or part for me. I am who I am. That person is who they are too. I don't think they need to live up to yours or mine expectations. They only need live up to their own.
I guess I'm just confused as to the whole idea that someone "represents" you? You didn't hire them. They owe you nothing. You have no "right" to have expectations of them, IMHO.
QuoteAnd based on the feedback, it's not transphobic, it's not projecting insecurity, it's not callous, or anything else. It is a little judgmental but I feel it is warranted criticism.
People saying so doesn't make it truth. It IS transphobic to me. I haven't heard the interview, but even if her voice wasn't passable, it's not like she was interviewed to demonstrate a passable voice. She was interviewed to tell her story as a TS, right? So she did. It was her story, told her way. If people were "uncomfortable" with it, then IMHO that just reveals insecurities THEY need to take a peek at.
~Kate~
Well spoken Kate.
Sarah L.
Expressing an insecurity is one thing. Expressing one's own discomfort is another. But advising someone to not go on the air because of their voice?
It's not an acting part. Nor is it a photo shoot for a fashion magazine. It is a public forum set up to elicit personal perspective and opinion. And if the organizer wants this person's opinion, she has every right to ask for it.
Yes, it is callous to expect anyone to live up to my own standard, no matter what that standard is. It is contemptuous and foul. It carries an air of superiority, racial purity, call it whatever you want. No matter how you paint this skunk, it still stinks.
I'm locking this thread for the time being.
Cindi