This worries me more than just a little bit...
That job, as the document describes, is to make plans for "National Essential Functions" of all federal, state, local, territorial, and tribal governments, as well as private sector organizations to continue functioning under the president's directives in the event of a national emergency.
The directive loosely defines "catastrophic emergency" as "any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions."
http://www.ww4report.com/node/3940
All I can say is, those of you who live outside the United States would be best off staying there.
Dino
I am working very hard at maintaining my calm.
I would like to believe that the people between the president and the rest of us would refuse him, but they probably won't.
Man, that is some scary, scary stuff,
Hmmm...
A couple of weeks ago, he gave his Secratary of the treasury power to confiscate property at will. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html
Last week, Congress extended the patriot act with a new provision: The Attorney General now has power to circumvent the courts in any surveillance.
If they want to seize power, our government will be locked up, unable to do anything as they try to move it through the courts (stacked in the presidents favor). Meanwhile, the leadership could do anything it pleases, including dismissal of congress.
The press has been publicly threatened for putting out real news.
The executive branch has actually hired its own news people to disseminate its version of the news.
Our democracy is hanging by a thread here.
Oh, it's just a temporary thing, people will tell you. That's what they said about Hitler. Remember that Hitler wasn't elected either. He put himself in charge. He took away the basic rights a little at a time. And then when the opportunity was ripe, he knocked out the support timbers of Germany's democracy. People could not do anything for fear of being arrested. That devolved of course into fear for their very lives.
Please! Write your representatives. Nothing has been so important in our lifetimes as getting these directives and laws retracted. If you don't do it now, while you still have the right to free speech, you may very well regret it.
Cindi
Oy, this administration is completely trashing what is left of the democracy. Grrrrrr. >:( >:( They've committed numerous impeachable offenses, and everyone is more concerned with Paris Hilton's month in jail, or whatever the distraction of hte week is.
Z
i think you will find clauses like these in place everywhere, thier necesery, under a national emergency, its necesery to take direct, comand and control, contigency plans such as this, are to facilitate smooth recovery and management of disasters and incidents. it might seem like a loss of liberty, but you will thank them when it saves your complaining arses...
R :police:
That's because we will sit around and complain a little... just like democracies of the past who lost all... and then go back to watching our reality shows.
How many of us have actually written our congress representatives voicing our concerns?
If you haven't done so, you deserve to lose your freedoms, you deserve to be arrested, you deserve to be lined up, sheared, and shot for the sheep that you are.
Wow.... did I actually write that? Yup.
Cindi
i think its more a case of they want to act agast, and upset, and complain, and know they cant do anything, because govornment and leadership is something they dont get. Bush might be an arsehole, but hes still in charge :)
R :police:
Rachael,
There is no situation where the checks and balances provided by the government should ever be suspended. This is unconstitutional. If that gets broken, we will lose our democracy.
Establishing a dictatorship to "protect" the constitution makes absolutely no sense to me.
Cindi
possibly, but sometimes direct action needs to be taken, and fannying around with comittees in a time of national threat will cause more loss of life. isnt a temporary loss of 'liberities' you arnt experienceing at the time anyway, better than death from inaction and hesitation?
R :police:
There is never an excuse for the executive branch to skirt the laws. We've seen the utter failure to act in more than one situation of national import in the past six years. Martial law has not been required in a single instance to deal with these issues. Need I enumerate?
The president is elected to be a leader. Let him lead.
Great leaders don't need dictatorial powers. They never have.
Weak men need dictatorial status to remain in power. Without the fear of the populace, they will lose their position. Weak men can not lead without threat and fear.
Cindi
Quote from: Rachael on August 16, 2007, 01:57:05 PM
possibly, but sometimes direct action needs to be taken, and fannying around with comittees in a time of national threat will cause more loss of life. isnt a temporary loss of 'liberities' you arnt experienceing at the time anyway, better than death from inaction and hesitation?
R :police:
Have you heard of the expression, "give me liberty or give me death".
Seeing that Bush is responsible for so many loss of lives already, do you think that giving him dictatorship power will actually save lives?
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 16, 2007, 02:05:58 PM
There is never an excuse for the executive branch to skirt the laws. We've seen the utter failure to act in more than one situation of national import in the past six years. Martial law has not been required in a single instance to deal with these issues. Need I enumerate?
The president is elected to be a leader. Let him lead.
Great leaders don't need dictatorial powers. They never have.
Weak men need dictatorial status to remain in power. Without the fear of the populace, they will lose their position. Weak men can not lead without threat and fear.
Cindi
well, yes, because none of these situations have been as serious as what COULD potentially happen, trust me, the last 6 years has been nothing... yes, hes there to lead, so do. and its not to stay in power, these clauses often allow power for a period, and not entirely limitless, and are recalled after the requirement is passed. its not a nazi germany....
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 16, 2007, 01:54:03 PM
There is no situation where the checks and balances provided by the government should ever be suspended. This is unconstitutional. If that gets broken, we will lose our democracy.
A small nuke in a major city would actually be a good reason to temporarily suspend a number of items. The real trick is making sure that the People reclaim their rights once the immediate crisis has passed.
This Executive Order basically realigns pre-existing infrastructure through a new office with the goal of making sure that there is someone directing what has to be done and that the basic infrastructure remains in place so that essential needs can be addressed. ideally with a good system in place, the federal government would continue to function and exist which would hopefully stop any attempts by other individuals to seize control of a state or other large land mass during a time of crisis (like in Jericho).
Why place it right next to the President? I once worked a job where I had 10 bosses. 10. Even though in theory I had only two to contend with there were times when I had to deal with all of them. To my surprise and horror they would manage to each have a different priority and each would give me something different to do. One day I changed my department around 4 times only to have someone from higher up (read: above my 10 bosses) come in and tell me to put it the way he wanted it (which is how I had arranged it originally). Now add a few hundred more to those bosses and imagine what it would be like to have that job. There should be an audit process of some sort to make sure that the office is not sitting around smoking cigars and drinking all day but I do not think that the position should report directly to Congress.
Can this be abused? Yes. Will it be abused? Eventually and it will be done so by a Politician. Said politician could be Democrat, Republican, or other.
The court should define catastrophic emergency, not the president.
courts take time, people die. action needs to be direct and swift. and ever heard the old saying 'too many cooks spoil the broth?'
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 16, 2007, 02:25:24 PM
courts take time, people die. action needs to be direct and swift. and ever heard the old saying 'too many cooks spoil the broth?'
R :police:
Well, democracy takes time.
democracy yes, but sometimes it goes overboard, a disaster isnt the place for democracy. its a place for controling the situation, and dealing with it, so democracy as a system can be restored anyway. because with a naition in turmoil, theres nobody to elect a govornment!
R :police:
Quotei think you will find clauses like these in place everywhere, thier necesery, under a national emergency, its necesery to take direct, comand and control, contigency plans such as this, are to facilitate smooth recovery and management of disasters and incidents. it might seem like a loss of liberty, but you will thank them when it saves your complaining arses...
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
CS Lewis
So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men.
Voltaire
Quote from: Rachael on August 16, 2007, 01:48:45 PM
i think you will find clauses like these in place everywhere, thier necesery, under a national emergency, its necesery to take direct, comand and control, contigency plans such as this, are to facilitate smooth recovery and management of disasters and incidents. it might seem like a loss of liberty, but you will thank them when it saves your complaining arses...
R :police:
Americans don't need no central government. Our local and state level people are very capable and states tend to work together.
Posted on: August 16, 2007, 03:33:37 PM
Quote from: Rachael on August 16, 2007, 01:52:10 PM
i think its more a case of they want to act agast, and upset, and complain, and know they cant do anything, because govornment and leadership is something they dont get. Bush might be an arsehole, but hes still in charge :)
R :police:
The president of the United States is neither a king nor an Emperor.
work well together? heard that before :)
and you do need central govt services, FEMA, for example are VITAL in any national multi state incident, and the yellowstone sulper caldera for example, would effect a large swathe of the north american continent, whipeing out some states.
that is the event such directives and power systems are for.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 16, 2007, 02:12:18 PM
well, yes, because none of these situations have been as serious as what COULD potentially happen, trust me, the last 6 years has been nothing... yes, hes there to lead, so do. and its not to stay in power, these clauses often allow power for a period, and not entirely limitless, and are recalled after the requirement is passed. its not a nazi germany....
Do you think watching New Orleans get washed away is nothing? The federal government did not even respond. They came in 5 days after the hurricane while people suffered and even died from neglect.
They are now talking of instituting a draft. and, the Attorney General has been given the power to
speed up executions!
The only reason for them to do that is so they can fast track the murder of political prisoners. This is not supposed to be China.
neglect? that was your perfectly capable state govts fault ;)
new orleans was nothing on a grand scheme, belive me.
New Orleans, perfect example of how not playing ball with FEMA prior to an emergency can come back and bite you on the butt (and kill people). I have lived in hurricane zones, the local govt always had the paperwork done and there were very few problems due to a lack or response or support. Civil liberties are a two edged sword, that is why so many are always willing to give them up.
And yes, in the grand scheme of things NO was a bit on the small scale. It could have been worse and a terrorist strike or even natural phenomenon could do far worse. That is why it is important to learn from past mistakes and try to save as many lives as we can.
Does this executive order do that?
Quote from: LostInTime on August 16, 2007, 03:55:34 PM
And yes, in the grand scheme of things NO was a bit on the small scale. It could have been worse and a terrorist strike or even natural phenomenon could do far worse. That is why it is important to learn from past mistakes and try to save as many lives as we can.
Does this executive order do that?
I don't know. i just mindlessly hate the government.
actually, I've decided to agree with you and Rachael. It is better to not think about anything. It prevents me from creating my yucky art.
Quoteactually, I've decided to agree with you and Rachael. It is better to not think about anything. It prevents me from creating my yucky art.
OH NO Rebis! :( Come back...... please..... we need you!!!
on the other hand, I suppose I can understand the appeal of being blissfully ignorant of what our government is doing in our name :P >:D
Z
doing in your name...
i really would like to see what qualifications you folks have while makeing these demands of democracy and liberty for libertys sake.
I dont really like how democracy is lorded for simply being. especially he jeffersonian model of western democracy. its seen as flawless. and perfect. when infact, its horridly inefficient.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 16, 2007, 04:31:14 PM
doing in your name...
i really would like to see what qualifications you folks have while makeing these demands of democracy and liberty for libertys sake.
I dont really like how democracy is lorded for simply being. especially he jeffersonian model of western democracy. its seen as flawless. and perfect. when infact, its horridly inefficient.
R :police:
Yup, it is inefficient. It is designed to be so. We need to keep those guys from passing new laws!
what a sensible aproach ::)
R :police:
Quote from: y2gender on August 16, 2007, 04:15:20 PM
Quoteactually, I've decided to agree with you and Rachael. It is better to not think about anything. It prevents me from creating my yucky art.
OH NO Rebis! :( Come back...... please..... we need you!!!
on the other hand, I suppose I can understand the appeal of being blissfully ignorant of what our government is doing in our name :P >:D
Z
Hi Z,
I'll still send missives to my representatives when I know something's up, but I noticed that when this stuff is on my mind, I become someone I don't like. I really need to clean my mind out right now.
P.S.
Rachael, who said -
Quotei really would like to see what qualifications you folks have while making these demands of democracy and liberty for libertys sake.
Our qualification is our willingness to die for our inefficient democracy.
i dont really like the title of this thread, makes it sound like a coup :P
R :police:
"They" have already been very public about making ours a "Christian" nation. Yup, "they" want to rewrite the constitution. It's not one of those conspiracies, it's in print from many of the top advisers and religious counselors. They just keep checking off those items on the "to do" list to get there. It's really quite scary.
Cindi
i forgot that your not allowed to live in a nation of one religion if your another....
must make buffy leave the UAE then!
R :police:
QuoteI'll still send missives to my representatives when I know something's up, but I noticed that when this stuff is on my mind, I become someone I don't like. I really need to clean my mind out right now.
Great, we'll all keep sending those missives. I do understand though, I often feel the need to take breaks from politics and especially the media coverage.
Quotei really would like to see what qualifications you folks have while making these demands of democracy and liberty for libertys sake.
Rachael, last time I checked, the qualifications of a US citizen were to be involved in the democratic process. I have voted in every election, often write or call my representatives on issues that matter to me, and as a musician, have played occasional fundraiser for candidates I supported.
Quotei dont really like the title of this thread, makes it sound like a coup
As far as I'm concerned, it was a coup. The votes weren't counted accurately. In either 2000 or 2004
Zythyra
now that, is an entirely different kettle of fish to this topics discussion, its its regardless of who is president.
and no, being qualified to vote, doesnt qualify you to understand why sucha meausre is in place. unless you are experienced at advanced command and control practice. you really cant say what is 'dictatorial' or not.
We might as well swap bus drivers for a driving comittee. one to use the gas, one to stear, one to watch, lets see how effective they are with so many lives in thier hands.
sometimes one person in total control for a period is SAFER.
R :police:
Quoteand no, being qualified to vote, doesnt qualify you to understand why sucha meausre is in place. unless you are experienced at advanced command and control practice. you really cant say what is 'dictatorial' or not.
I consider it important to be an informed citizen, not only of US but of the world. I'm not experienced at advanced command and control practice, in fact, I couldn't shoot my way out of a paper bag, but when compared to history of other fascist regimes, regrettably the country in which I reside has become one.
Zythyra
Quote from: Rachael on August 16, 2007, 06:36:48 PM
now that, is an entirely different kettle of fish to this topics discussion, its its regardless of who is president.
and no, being qualified to vote, doesnt qualify you to understand why sucha meausre is in place. unless you are experienced at advanced command and control practice. you really cant say what is 'dictatorial' or not.
We might as well swap bus drivers for a driving comittee. one to use the gas, one to stear, one to watch, lets see how effective they are with so many lives in thier hands.
sometimes one person in total control for a period is SAFER.
R :police:
It is the people's government. It doesn't belong to only certain people. Our constitution gives us the right to say what is dictatorial or not.
Beyond the constitution, being born a human being gives us the right to say pretty much what we want to.
tell that to the govt, thier under the impression the can arrest people for racist, homophobic and transphobic comments.....
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 16, 2007, 07:16:52 PM
tell that to the govt, thier under the impression the can arrest people for racist, homophobic and transphobic comments.....
R :police:
the government smells
then write to them and advise bathing :P
R :police:
QuoteIt is the people's government. It doesn't belong to only certain people. Our constitution gives us the right to say what is dictatorial or not.
It even says, if it isn't working, we have the right to go to Washington and throw them out... do we have a quorum? >:D
Z
Quote from: Rachael on August 16, 2007, 06:36:48 PM
now that, is an entirely different kettle of fish to this topics discussion, its its regardless of who is president.
and no, being qualified to vote, doesnt qualify you to understand why sucha meausre is in place. unless you are experienced at advanced command and control practice. you really cant say what is 'dictatorial' or not.
We might as well swap bus drivers for a driving comittee. one to use the gas, one to stear, one to watch, lets see how effective they are with so many lives in thier hands.
sometimes one person in total control for a period is SAFER.
R :police:
It's also un-American. Read the Declaration of Independence sometime to understand on what basis the American government was founded.
But then, you're a Brit, I believe.
Of course this worries me greatly. However, being in the middle of the Katrina debacle showed me just how disastrous inefficient government is. When everybody is in charge, nobody is in charge. The Bush administration gets it fair share of the blame and they deserve it. But what amazes me is how many people have turned a blind eye to the absolute mishandling of the situation by Ray Nagin and his cronies. This bigoted criminal was even re-elected afterwards. As much as I hate to admit it, in the time of an emergency someone does need to be in charge. In Katrina, nobody stepped up and did their job, and many people died for it. The biggest problem is that there doesn't seem to be a realistic way to turn the power back once it is passed. Who is to decide when the right time is? Nobody likes to give up power once they have it.
Quote from: DeanO on August 16, 2007, 12:24:18 PM
All I can say is, those of you who live outside the United States would be best off staying there.
Dino
Despite everything, I totally disagree with this statement.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
A good leader, in the time of a natural disaster, would take care of the problems. He would promptly leave his vacation and go to work. We've had great leaders.
But I wouldn't even want a great leader to have absolute power. The checks and balances must always apply. I certainly would NEVER want Bush to have absolute power. You think he would have left his vacation earlier had he been able to declare martial law? Nope. He would have declared martial law though!
Cindi
i really really believe that the state is responsible for handling and managing catastrophes. If they need assistance, they should specify to the feds what it is they need.
Louisiana could have done better before and after. If I was a Governor, I would not even allow the feds to give orders to my guard. We are going to need our state militia's to do what they were meant to do - protect us from the federal government. [I can't believe I just wrote that] I'm backing off of this thread.
See you in better times,
Rebis
i think your missing the point, such powers would NOT have been brough into play during katrina,
they are for events that jepourdize the fabric of the entire nation.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 17, 2007, 04:02:37 PM
i think your missing the point, such powers would NOT have been brough into play during katrina,
they are for events that jepourdize the fabric of the entire nation.
R :police:
You're probably right.
What's with the uniform? I like looking at the real you.
Quote from: Rachael on August 17, 2007, 04:02:37 PM
they are for events that jepourdize the fabric of the entire nation.
R :police:
Then why (and no one can explain this to me) was a storm a matter of Homeland
Security?
What kind of events are you speaking of? Please help me understand.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on August 17, 2007, 10:09:09 PM
Quote from: Rachael on August 17, 2007, 04:02:37 PM
they are for events that jepourdize the fabric of the entire nation.
R :police:
Then why (and no one can explain this to me) was a storm a matter of Homeland Security?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Because one of the many idiots in the Bush regime thought that FEMA should be a part of Homeland Security instead of an independent agency. Then under directives from above in HS, they spent 75% of their time and energy preparing to respond to terrorist attacks rather than natural disasters as FEMA was designed to do.
For those who haven't, read John Varley's Red Lightening. As someone described it, it's the book Robert A. Heinlein would have written if he lived in George Bush's America.
Beverly
fema is for all emergencies, not any paticular sort that is national scale....
if i still spoke to my father, i could provide more information, hes rather high up in the british version of fema and has taught emergency management in kuait, spain and brazil...
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 17, 2007, 04:02:37 PM
i think your missing the point, such powers would NOT have been brough into play during katrina,
they are for events that jepourdize the fabric of the entire nation.
R :police:
Oh you mean like Sept 11, ought one
What a great excuse for expanded executive powers
Take a real close look at the connections between the BUSH and the BIN LADEN families
seriously, look at it
Now, the fact that the building that held, NOTE THE PAST TENSE, the records of the DOD and the CIA, a nice structure called WTC 7, which went down in appx 6.5 seconds in practically a pure vertical line, which wasn't hit by any airplane, {and which event was omitted from the 9-11 commission report, entirely}
Now look at Dr Jones at BYU's 13-point study on this phenomenon, which tends to show an extremely advanced state of the art in demolition
then look at what the rest of the bunch, not just the Bush but the Dick, et al, had to gain by this
look at some cold hard facts, in the light of day
and then maybe get back to us with your apologia for untempered power
NOTA
^-^:police:^-^
should we change the name of this thread to 'hillbilly takeover'?
only if yer offerin me a dip in the Cement Pond, Jethro
QuoteI am on my way to U.C.L.A. for to pick up my PHD
- jethro bodine doing a commercial for superbanker
Quote from: None of the Above on August 18, 2007, 06:37:50 PM
Quote from: Rachael on August 17, 2007, 04:02:37 PM
i think your missing the point, such powers would NOT have been brough into play during katrina,
they are for events that jepourdize the fabric of the entire nation.
R :police:
Oh you mean like Sept 11, ought one
What a great excuse for expanded executive powers
Take a real close look at the connections between the BUSH and the BIN LADEN families
seriously, look at it
Now, the fact that the building that held, NOTE THE PAST TENSE, the records of the DOD and the CIA, a nice structure called WTC 7, which went down in appx 6.5 seconds in practically a pure vertical line, which wasn't hit by any airplane, {and which event was omitted from the 9-11 commission report, entirely}
Now look at Dr Jones at BYU's 13-point study on this phenomenon, which tends to show an extremely advanced state of the art in demolition
then look at what the rest of the bunch, not just the Bush but the Dick, et al, had to gain by this
look at some cold hard facts, in the light of day
and then maybe get back to us with your apologia for untempered power
NOTA
^-^:police:^-^
9-11 is a good example of an event aucustrated to give power.
'change will need to come in the form of a catestrophic event, a new pearl harbour' - mr powel...
9-11 to me, was entirely us aucustrated. as binladen was in US custody at the time of 9.11, and come on... 911.... :P
i agree with the facts you listed none of the above.
but still it was too small an event with regards to this situation, too minor and contained.