I'm still at the early stages of figuring out what I'm feeling, whether I'm trans or not. I'm really scared because I want to keep my marriage with my wife. She's my best friend and we've been married 15 years. We have seven children together. She's made it clear that she cannot stay with me if I pursue becoming a woman. I get that. She didn't sign up to be married to a woman.
A lot of people have told me that marriages can survive when one of the partners transitions. But so far all the stories I end up reading or hearing about have ended up in broken marriages. I don't see any way that I can ever be a woman and still keep my marriage. But I desperately want to be wrong. Are there any positive stories where the marriage survived that someone can tell me about?
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My marriage survived and is quite honestly better than ever. I know I'm extremely lucky, but it can happen.
I was very open about everything as soon as my dysphoria hit the breaking point and I never kept anything from her. We have been best friends and inseparable since the moment we met in 1992.
The fact is that now that I've found happiness, my wife no longer worries about coming home to find me being depressed, angry or at room temperature. It certainly takes some adjustment time for her, and giving her space to take it in is key. Please don't overload her with all of your trans issues at once, and don't just talk about your trans-related things. Make sure you still do everything you used to do and don't deprive her of things she likes or needs.
Hugs,
Jill
the answer partially depends on how you define transition.
I know quiet a few members here whose marriages hav survived a transition. However, it is only a kind of partial transition...
It can happen but depends on how flexible the sexual identity of the partner is. I was never in a relationship when I transitioned but I know that had I married one of the two girlfriends I'd ever had that it would have self destructed because there was no way she'd cope with it. Our reasonably strong and affectionate relationship broke down once I told her about my earlier trans history and, even though I was adamant I was never going to try transitioning ever again she just utterly wigged out. I think it challenged her sexual identity to know she was in a relationship with a "male who identified as female". And that is the way with many partners - if they are strongly hetro then even a whiff of transition can cause real problems.
Those statistics I believe were less than 7% of marriages survive a person's transition...or somewhere around there.
The survey currently considered the gold standard in trans research, "Injustice at Every Turn," which was conducted by The National Center for Transgender Equality and the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force (and which surveyed 6,450 Americans who were transgender or non-gender conforming) says that, contrary to the accepted wisdom, only 45% of people reported that their relationship ended due to coming out or gender non-conformity. Among those who actually went on to transition, the rate is 55% of relationships ending.
http://www.thetaskforce.org/static_html/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_full.pdf
I'm one who is still married, and actually we're happier together post-transition (and by "transition" I mean I even had GRS a couple years ago); I just spent the day with another couple where the wife wasn't even especially unhappy about her partner transitioning and they're clearly very much in love. There are no guarantees, of course, but it's definitely possible. I think the tragic stories are just often the most told/remembered, which is is kind of human nature.
Thank you everyone for your answers. These are really helpful. Jenna, thank you especially for the link. Looks like I've got some reading to do! :D
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Ours is making it and we are happier now than ever.
Our is still going and once I get the right mix of meds will be stronger than ever. We were much stronger after than before transition. Everything was great until the work place destroyed my life and mind.
We've actively tried to help a couple of couples locally, but they transwomen have left their marriages (NOT the cis-women) because they were straight.
Quote from: Jill F on December 13, 2014, 06:14:11 PM
My marriage survived and is quite honestly better than ever. I know I'm extremely lucky, but it can happen.
I was very open about everything as soon as my dysphoria hit the breaking point and I never kept anything from her. We have been best friends and inseparable since the moment we met in 1992.
The fact is that now that I've found happiness, my wife no longer worries about coming home to find me being depressed, angry or at room temperature. It certainly takes some adjustment time for her, and giving her space to take it in is key. Please don't overload her with all of your trans issues at once, and don't just talk about your trans-related things. Make sure you still do everything you used to do and don't deprive her of things she likes or needs.
Hugs,
Jill
This pretty much sums up my experience as well. As a couple, we're much happier than we used to be for a long long time.
Quote from: Shodan on December 15, 2014, 07:35:24 AM
This pretty much sums up my experience as well. As a couple, we're much happier than we used to be for a long long time.
... and I can say the same thing. Together for almost 10 years and stronger than ever as a couple following a complete transition.
It was however a second mariage and I was very upfront with my feminine side from the beginning. At the time neither of us knew it would end up with me transitioning though.
My marriage seems to be surviving quiet well as I transition. This is the second marriage for both of us. My first marriage didn't survive me telling her I had been cross-dressing. In my second, I came out to my wife while we were engaged but not yet married.
Initially, she was very accepting, and actually started encouraging me to dress. She said, however, that she couldn't stay with me if I transitioned because she wasn't a lesbian and a healthy sexual relationship is very important to her. At the time transitioning was not even remotely being considered. So no issue there!
Two years later and I am solidly in the early stages of transition. We both very much plan to stay together. My wife is my biggest supporter, and she would actually be saddened if I didn't transition.
Kim
Quote from: Natalie on December 13, 2014, 07:25:30 PM
Those statistics I believe were less than 7% of marriages survive a person's transition...or somewhere around there.
This sounds about right, if not high.
You have to think about what it puts your partner through. I'm amazed any survive.
I'll be the counterexample here. Ours may not survive. My wife is very much cis hetero. We may remain friends, but as it is, she claims that my transition is causing her extreme discomfort. She did not marry a woman and she doesn't want to be a lesbian. This is true.
Since I started transition she's always inspecting me looking for clues if I'm wearing something to work (where I am not fully out yet but I push the limit of the dress code) or if I'm buying clothes etc. Always asking about my appointments for electrolysis, therapy or endo, not in a concerning way but a prying way. Then the worst is that she always asks if I found a man yet. Then asking if I want to donate my man clothes to the church yet. Then she mopes around and claims she is depressed. She very well may be but she should seek help. I have tried but I am not a dr or psych.
Then she's asked about divorce a good few times...
She sees my developing breasts which are getting harder to hide under clothes and she gets depressed all afternoon. It's like how I was at the height of my dysphoria.
She never makes it easy. So our marriage may not survive. I might have to resign myself to that. And I am thinking I might just stay single for a while, even post SRS when I do get around to that.
1) most women married to a man are hetero, now they're being asked to be in love and be attracted to a woman.
2) in the months or years leading to this relationship crisis, their husband has been depressed and distant and probably some anger, due to extreme discomfort, issues too, which means the relationship on rocky ground leading into it.
3) in the midst of the crisis, her partner is utterly self-absorbed. It isn't a knock, you just have to be. Often transitioners are in survival mode cause they waited too long, it's focus on their self or die. You're dealing with some intense changes and navigating dangerous waters, there is no room to consider much other than yourself.
4) ambiguous grief. as you transition, the man she fell in love with disappears and is replaced with this other person. She feels the loss, but you aren't exactly gone, so closure is impossible. The feelings linger. It's so hard on her, meanwhile you're self-absorbed
5) sex? Serious incompatibilities on both sides.
6) often the transistioner experiences a shift of some kind in their sexuality. This is a problem for both, depending on how big the shift.
Those are just the big ones I can think of, much more going on that is just completely against your relationship working out. If you look at it from her perspective, it's just too much to ask in most cases. It's not impossible because it has been done, but prepared to work very hard when you may not have the wherewithal to work on anything but yourself and still probably have it not work out.
Not trying to be a downer, just trying to show reality.
Oh PS—a split can often be the best thing for BOTH of you, even if it doesn't seem like it now.
It gets more complicated if you have kids because you have to deal with them, as well as possible side effects such as bullying in school.
I didn't even think about how kids affect things. Makes it harder emotionally I'm sure from several angles.
We can speculate but we do not know about all of your personal circumstances or strengths for taking on this journey. I think a fair question to ask any transitioner is; "would you stay if your partner was the one in transition?"
A long term marriage with a big family would be challenging for anyone while the fundamentals of honesty and good communication are critical for any relationship.
We have been together for over 41 years, celebrating our 40th anniversary last month. We have allowed ourselves maximum freedoms while also expecting maximum support to make it work. Without a crystal ball we can not be certain of the future and it's OK to not take each other for granted.
There are other transitions in a married couples life that can be just as hard. Loosing your health, a job, home or child for instance? We adapt or move on and it can be done while still loving each other.
Quote from: Tessa James on December 15, 2014, 01:59:44 PM
We can speculate but we do not know about all of your personal circumstances or strengths for taking on this journey. I think a fair question to ask any transitioner is; "would you stay if your partner was the one in transition?"
A long term marriage with a big family would be challenging for anyone while the fundamentals of honesty and good communication are critical for any relationship.
We have been together for over 41 years, celebrating our 40th anniversary last month. We have allowed ourselves maximum freedoms while also expecting maximum support to make it work. Without a crystal ball we can not be certain of the future and it's OK to not take each other for granted.
There are other transitions in a married couples life that can be just as hard. Loosing your health, a job, home or child for instance? We adapt or move on and it can be done while still loving each other.
I asked this question. All I got as a reply was probably not. It just makes me wonder about how long I can just brush off some responses.
With children in the picture the focus, for me, becomes more about how we negotiate changes with love and support. If you have children in common you will ALWAYS have a part of your life that is shared and impacts the entire family. I was married once long ago and we had two children. My being trans was then an unacknowledged but real part of our break up. That woman refers to me as "it" and I am sorry for the pain in her life that still causes her to lash out at me. We hung in there till we could not stand each other and I cannot recommend waiting till there is nothing left but hurt and hate.
We are married since 18 years and still together. I fully transitioned in spring this year and I am post OP.
It is likely that we will split up because we are both heterosexual women. Of course it is not easy for her. But currently our relationship is good besides the lack of sex. We are both dating men.
Lara
Mine did not survive, I was divorced. Most of my friends that transitioned did not either, there is one exception. That put my personal knowledge average at around 85% divorce rate.
BunnyBee : Please notice the study and statistic I posted - 45% survive. :) The gloom and doom does not help the partners who DO want to make it work...
The longer version of my story is that I didn't even know I was trans until I was 32, and when I came out to my wife neither of us realized I'd be fully transitioned within 11 months. She was and remained my staunchest supporter, and I'll always be grateful beyond words for her; we had some rough moments during the transition process, but neither of us ever considered divorce. And several years on, we're blissfully happy together.
Tessa : That is a *very* good point about other "transitions" that can come with a marriage. Personally, I think we're blessed that we're both still healthy and stable, and if this is the worst that ever happens, we're lucky.
Broken-hearted : Wow, that's a bit cold from your spouse. They're asking a lot of you here, and not to even acknowledge that...
Thought I would make it but my x turned on a dime when I started looking more about GCS.
Marriage 24 years 28 years together.
Now since remarried and will be 9 years in the spring.
Life does not have to end alone. It is yours to make move forward.
No...support means telling the truth and representing "Relationships ended for 45% of those who came out to partners." isn't the question. Implying 55% of marriages survived transition based on that vague stat/statement is a flat out misrepresentation.
That doesn't say marriage, heck is doesn't even say transition, much less a name change and SRS.
Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on December 15, 2014, 09:09:36 PM
No...support means telling the truth and representing "Relationships ended for 45% of those who came out to partners." isn't the question. Implying 55% of marriages survived transition based on that vague stat/statement is a flat out misrepresentation.
That doesn't say marriage, heck is doesn't even say transition, much less a name change and SRS.
Exactly. 55% success rate of gender non-conformig and /or simply coming out as such is not surpirsing to me at all, and may totally be right. If that is all you're doing, then you have a much better chance than I am talking about, cuz I'm talking about if you fully transition with your partner not knowing anything going into the marriage. I am skeptical of the second part of the study where it says to expect a 45% success of your relationship surviving post transition, though. It doesn't jive with what I have observed at all. If the study is true though, then cool.
I don't really like being the pessimist, it isn't usually my role, but idk... I just want people to have realistic expectations.
Our marriage has so far been surviving though I worry once we are both on hormones how well things will go. Sex is very important to DW and sometimes hormones can muck things up but to what extent, we won't know. If that does happen, it's highly likely we'd have to consider an open marriage or something similar to a FWBs set up. I'm not sure how that would work though given my ideas of monogamy.
I will be honest in saying that sexual incompatibility wouldn't be the deal-beaker but it would be part of the divorce should it happen.
No, the survey used a double barrel direct question by using "spouse" and "partner" in the same question like they are synonymous thus it lacks content validity for this question. Did they allow for disagreement? What about uncertainty? Are the questions exhaustive and mutually exclusive? Did they use a likert scale...a thurstone scale? Was it only a dichotomous question? The study also failed to track this cohort across time to see the effect of year 1,2, or 3 on said relationships. Of the 55% that allegedly stay, what about a year later...or two years later? What about those that fully transition? Do their partners stay with them? What impact does fully transitioning have on the relationship a year down the road? This is an inherent problem with cross-sectional studies like this because it only looks at a bunch of people at one point in time and in order to achieve truly generalizable statistics it has to be repeated. Still, the researchers could have chosen a cohort study that tracked a significantly smaller sample across three years giving them one of three surveys each year and that would make it much more generalizable than the current study. Furthermore, why type of analysis was used? Did they use OLS regression? Do the findings indicate statistical conclusion validity? If so, what is the effect size? Did they control for the "noise" in terms of the variance so the model could be changed for any spuriousness that may be occurring? What are the the coefficient values for this question? How much of the variance does it really explain in terms of "relationships" ending?
So...I question the veracity of the study; especially this question due to all of it's problems. Therefore, I stand by my first statement that only 7% of people stay with a transsexual after 3 years of transitioning.
That is the closest thing we have to an actual study on the subject, and I've seen it cited repeatedly for the employment and suicide attempt statistics. (also, it's unfortunately impossible to track marriage statistics in a population where not everyone is allowed to legally marry in their state or country.)
Natalie, what study are you using for the 7%? I assume it meets all of the criteria you just listed...
Ours is working, better than ever but with different struggles - we all have them. We have three kids too. Open minded, loyal, fluid orientation, all describe my wife. Transition has been slow, very slow but full time is within a year or 18 months now as social and medical transition has started!!
To be fair though, she never once said she couldn't do it, she said she wasn't sure, and 12 years ago was when I first told her. there's a lot of time that had passed in order for her to process.
I would be cautious about hope if your partner had drawn any lines but if those lines are going to be erased it will be gradual and over time as she sees how beautiful your relationship can become - she will need to see what she gains instead of what she loses and it will need to be persuasive.
Quote from: ashley_thomas on December 16, 2014, 07:51:56 AM
I would be cautious about hope if your partner had drawn any lines but if those lines are going to be erased it will be gradual and over time as she sees how beautiful your relationship can become
This is important. It is a very gradual change process, if you push it hard and fast then it is going to end.
We grew through no dressing in front of me, no HRT, FFS, orchi, and now we both can't wait until we can afford GCS and I finally have the body my mind expects.
Go slow, listen to her feedback.
If you just think about what transitioning asks of the cis partner, you have to think it's unlikely couples with a transitioning spouse should expect a similar divorce rate to the rest of the population. If you do a study poorly enough, you can get it to show virtually anything you want.
That being said, it isn't hopeless, but you have to be pretty special and so does your spouse. But also, if it does end, it can be a good thing. I have seen people stay together and both partners be absolutley miserable and the trans person getting stuck in limbo and it doesn't seem pleasant from the outside looking in. When you negotiate your transition alone, you do it on your terms. I understand having kids does throw in a wrench. It's all very complicated and you have to prioritize.
BunnyBee, thank you for your six point synopsis of why it is hard to stay together. For most of our marriage, I've been sensitive enough to her that I could pretty easily make sure to say things in ways that didn't hurt her, or quickly apologize when I did. But now I'm dealing with emotions that are so deep-seated that it's hard for me to be sensitive to her anymore. I snap at her a lot without even realizing it. Until now, we've talked about the fact that she couldn't stay with me, but we would still be best friends. But now, as I'm talking about it more, and as it's becoming more real, we're wondering if that's still possible.
*tears* How can I go on without her? I married my first love, and I've never been with anyone else.
But at the same time, how can I go on as a man?
The price of both options is too high for me. If I pursue transitioning, I lose everything. If I don't, I lose myself.
ImagineKate, you bring up a good point about the kids in school. To complicate matters, we live in a small town. It would get out. I should probably speak with the high school guidance counselor about it... who ironically was my guidance counselor when I was in school here.
Tessa... oh I can't imagine the pain you must have gone through! To have your spouse hate you and call you, "it." God, it just breaks my heart.
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It's all very sad :(. I am sorry for the pain you feel :(.
Thank you BunnyBee.
Tessa, thank you for your kind message. I can't respond because I haven't posted enough yet. I guess I need 15 posts. I'm not sure what I'm at, but I guess I need to get more chatty. :)
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The standard narrative tells us to expect total rejection. Marriages end, family disowns you, and friends desert you. They say it's an inevitability. And of course that does happen for some. But it certainly isn't the standard. In fact, from my own anecdotal evidence I'd say the 50/50 split is about right. About half the trans people I know who were in serious relationships lost them, and the other half didn't.
One interesting thing about the study that Jenna posted is that it breaks it down further by MTF and FTM and by age group. FTM's have a 60% survival rate across the board. MTF's start with a 60% survival rate earlier in life, and the rate goes down as they get older. So MTF's in their 60's only have about a 30% chance of maintaining the relationship. But overall, the average is still close to 50%.
This is good news! The standard narrative is wrong. And the whole "typical transgender", ->-bleeped-<-r-than thou, doom and gloom nonsense needs to stop.
Ryan, does your wife know about this yet?
Imagine that, stating flaws in a study is allegedly combative and negative. That's down right hilarious. However, one's subjective opinion of my statement does not negate the veracity of it.
I would like to state that members can reconsider their smites and decide whether they would like to withdraw them.
Quote from: Cindy on December 17, 2014, 04:01:00 AM
I would like to state that members can reconsider their smites and decide whether they would like to withdraw them.
Smites should effectively be handed out with extreme parcimony but Natalie, who is very definitive, should also answer the question she was asked regarding the standards applied to the study where she got her 7% survival rate figure. As it happens, apart from my own case, I personally know three other couples , MTF + cis female and all in their forties or fifties, where the mariage survived a complete transition. I also noticed that in a poll on this site regarding where people stood in terms of their relationships, the largest group by far (about 40% I think) was MTF married to cis females
It has already been mentioned by others but I would also emphasise how important it is to allow one's partner lots of time to adjust. In my own case, I spoke about my gender identity issues from the beginning of our relationship in 2005, did not begin HRT until more than 3 years later and only finished my transition 6 years after that.
Quote from: katiej on December 16, 2014, 11:03:50 PM
And the whole "typical transgender", ->-bleeped-<-r-than thou, doom and gloom nonsense needs to stop.
Tone-policing could also stop. We all have different opinions and perspcetives and biases, we don't all need to fall in lock-step with each other, or be afraid to express our honest opinion. Dissent is good.
Regarding smiting, I have always disliked it. It seems very petty to me. It's ok to disagree. Really.
Quote from: katiej on December 16, 2014, 11:03:50 PM
This is good news! The standard narrative is wrong. And the whole "typical transgender", ->-bleeped-<-r-than thou, doom and gloom nonsense needs to stop.
Allow me to qualify and defend my statement. I did not mean to point this statement at anyone here, I certainly wasn't meaning to word it so strongly towards anyone in this conversation.
I spent the better part of a decade in complete denial about being transgender because I didn't fit the typical narrative. I figured I must not really be trans because I wasn't suicidal or severely depressed and I grew up in a stable home. And then they scared me to death with the expectation that it's virtually guaranteed that everyone I ever knew or loved would spit at me and throw rocks.
It wasn't until I came across some positive transgender influences online that made me realize the doom and gloom scenario was possible, but far from certain. And with a clearer picture I was able to come to the point of being able to accept myself. This is why I say the "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" attitude is not helpful.
Katie, you asked if my wife knows yet. Yes, she does. I first talked to her about it a-year-and-a-half ago. We've been working through it together. Our first approach, at her request, was to have me try some things to overcome it. That sounds worse than it was. I'm not sure that I have a textbook case of gender dysphoria at all. It's actually the internal confusion I have about what's going on that got me to buy in on the whole "let's try harder" plan to begin with. But now 18 months later, we've had no movement, and I'm very frustrated with myself that I've let things go so long.
A couple nights ago she asked what I was reading on my iPad, and I showed her this thread. She broke down crying because reading what you all wrote suddenly made it very real for her.
She said, "What's the point of asking them if marriages survive? I've already told you that I can't live with you if you become a girl."
We had a pretty big fight. I don't know. We're both just so hurt. We love each other so much. But she can't be with a woman, and I can't not be one. Maybe. I don't know. I can't explore it at all, because she views any and all experimenting as me crossing the line.
The whole thing left me feeling really crappy. I felt like she was casting me as the villain in her story, and I have a very hard time with that. Thoughts is suicide crossed my mind. So I told her (or maybe she told me) to make an emergency appointment with my therapist, and I was able to get in over my lunch hour.
"Ryan," said my therapist, "you can't do what you can't do. You're looking for the perfect solution, but there just isn't one. You have to face up to that."
So yesterday my wife and I agreed to get temporarily separated so that I can sort this out. We both cried a lot yesterday.
She said, "I'm just thinking about the day you came to see me to ask to court me, and you didn't tell me why you were coming, and when you got there you gave me a dozen roses." And we both started weeping. I think we're both in mourning. She said to me, "You can't be who I need you to be, and I can't be who you need me to be."
So while you all are bickering about statistics -- it's fine, really; it's all so new for me and I enjoy reading what you all have to say -- but I'm in the middle of living out a statistic, and it's tearing me apart. I at least have the hope that I'll finally get to explore my gender identity and try to be myself. But she gets... what? Nothing. She is losing a husband. And I'm causing her loss.
"You're not causing it, Ryan. The situation is," said my therapist yesterday. "You can't control this." No, I guess not. But that doesn't make it any easier.
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Ryan : Oh, honey, I'm so sorry. It sounds as if neither you nor your wife can see any hope here, and that's just heartbreaking. It *isn't* your fault, and your therapist is very wise, but I'm sure that's no consolation.
Thanks Jenna. Your words mean a lot.
Ryan, I'm so sorry to hear you're going through such a difficult time. And you're right, you are a person...not a statistic. We only brought it up as a way to show that some marriages do indeed survive transition. And although it now seems clear yours may not, I would encourage you to remain cautiously hopeful. But the fact that she's spent the last 18 months expecting you to "overcome it" means it isn't likely she's flexible enough to warm up to the idea.
I would also caution you on delaying or stopping transition to keep someone else happy. I've never heard of dysphoria getting better with time. And so you'd spend years unhappy with yourself and building a resentment towards the people you were trying to keep around. Even without transition that still sounds like a recipe for failed, or at least difficult, relationships.
Do you have other supportive people in your life who can help you get through this?
I really wish you the best. And please do keep us updated.
Quote from: YourFriendRyan on December 13, 2014, 05:50:30 PM
... Are there any positive stories where the marriage survived that someone can tell me about?
Hi Ryan,
Yes, there are many couples whose marriage have survived and more than that, have thrived!
My wife and I have been married for over 24 years. During the last few years I completed the self discovery needed to understand and accept that my path leads to transitioning to live full time as the woman I am. This was not what I or my wife expected when we married. Together we are working through the issues and feelings that are part of our journey. My spouse is part of this journey and we expect to grow old(er) together.
My wife and I have met more than ten couples that stayed married through one of the partners going through a gender role transition and we regularly keep in contact with about half of the couples. Their stories are all different in how they met, handled discovery and worked through to a positive result.
The common theme I noticed was a shared desire to stay together and that they each love the other person for who they are inside.
Many of the couples had a bit of a rough go while the working through the transition (both spouses had to work through their own changes).
The most joyfully thriving couples discovered that the partner who completed their transition is able to finally express their true self and the qualities their spouse were originally attracted to now shine even brighter.
The stories of loss are heart breaking, the stories of success are breath-taking.
There is always hope. I wish for you to find joy in living true to yourself.
For me some days are dark and scary, other days are bright and joyful. When I am in doubt and can't see any path working, I head down the path that my heart tells me too with belief that I will achieve a positive result that is what I need.
(It may sound new age/metaphysical, but it is what keeps me going forward with hope. Sometimes what I really needed is not what I was thought I needed :-\ )
Hugs
- Cindi
I'm so sorry. :(