So people say the voice doesn't change, and from my personal experience, it REALLY changed, I started taking stuff since I was 16, and I say stuff because when I was -18 that I was unable to get treatment I'd just take anything that had estrogen.
But anyway, the thing is that as a matter of fact my voice changed with the years, I was extremely surprised and freaked out because I was told it was impossible, but yes it did, and I got no training at all.
Okay maybe the vocal chords didn't change, but does the voice really depend only on that? as a musician I know that even the littlest change can make a note sound higher or lower. Like when you get a flu and your voice lowers, you can even hear that people fluctuates their voice pitch during the day, with no effort at all.
Come on, there must be more people who got this to happen too.
Im glad to hear that you've done well with your voice. It's not so easy for many of us...although it came fairly naturally to me compared to some.
As I understand it, the male voice is capable of a wider range of frequencies than the female voice. The vocal chords grow larger, making the lower notes and deeper resonance possible. But the higher notes and lack of resonance are still possible with the male anatomy. It's just that most guys dont try to sound female.
IMO the biggest difference between identifiably male and female speech is actually the speech patterns and not necessarily just the pitch. This is why some women have low voices but still sound very much like women. And so if you transitioned in your teens, then you would have picked up these speech patterns naturally instead of having to figure them out later in life after decades of talking like a guy.
I know that HRT can sometimes affect the voice for MTFs, but yours is probably a combination of age and learning to talk like the girls around you in a natural way instead of later in life.
I guess if you're young enough you can stave off a lot of the testosterone damage. However I seem to recall Dr Kim telling Jenny (she mentioned it in the Yeson thread) that estrogen thins your vocal cords so your pitch can get higher.
It's also funny you mention this because when i was signing informed consent paperwork, one of the effects listed that I had to agree to was my voice may raise in pitch. So I guess it does happen to some degree. I guess we will see as I progress further along if I see the same thing, but I'm older so it may not be as dramatic.
I think the other thing to remember is that the human brain is very good at mimicking. This comes into play once you truly believe that you are female and that is also once you totally accept yourself as female. At that point I think the brain automatically begins reprogramming itself for speech. This is the say way people loose and gain accents when moving to different regions. That is just a thought though I have no proof of this but it makes sense to me.
Quote from: SarahElizabeth on December 15, 2014, 03:05:29 PM
... At that point I think the brain automatically begins reprogramming itself for speech. This is the say way people loose and gain accents when moving to different regions. That is just a thought though I have no proof of this but it makes sense to me.
I lose and gain accents in the middle of conversations. Maybe there's hope for me yet.
I sort of sound softer and refrain from projecting my voice a whole lot when I talk in guy mode, but it hasn't physically changed my vocal anatomy.
Once I decided who I was I started paying attention to how females speak and their mannerisms and became more observant and naturally there is a tendency to copycat the manner of speech - even if subconciously. The way I speak has changed and I do have two voices that are distincly male or female.
E will change your voice.
But not in the way your hoping for.
Because of the way sound works, when you speak the sound echoes through your body, particularly in your torso and this creates a harmonic element of your voice. As your body changes physically on Hrt, the harmonic make up of your voice changes too. It doesn't alter your pitch but it does make your voice sound 'thinner'. Think what happens when you put a mute on a trumpet. The effect of Hrt is similar to that albeit less pronounced.
Does that make Sense?
I think one thing that happened for me more then hormones is I always had an androgynous voice and I could mimic voices before I even accepted I was transgendered. I've been getting called ma'am on the phone my whole life basically. After I began hormones the combination of the two made me mimic females around me more and more and I have to put forth an honest effort to prove I'm myself some times if its a legal matter where I need be a guy for 5 minutes. I go to doctor's appoints for my son with my wife and get asked if I'm her friend or sister.
HRT definitely softened voice up - the records sound totally different than they used to (and I have to intentionally go a bit lower if I want to sound like guy). It did not however shut the chest voice down, I need to make a mental effort with that one, so in overall my voice does not pass just by itself. If I used my now everyday voice, I am still mostly being seen as a guy. But when I am around my kid, there is something which immediately changes in my voice (I am yet to figure out what.. but there is a subtle difference how adults speak to children) and I get gendered female even when wearing andro clothes (leaning male).
Then apparently I am just speaking differently for dont-really-care what reason.
Your voice does not change during HRT. This should be an axiom by now. It's simply not medically possible. Claiming it does defies known medicine and is a delusional belief about the self typically used as a validation of one's femininity due to insecurities. Furthermore, it's extremely hard to get a person having delusions to admit it because it seems so real to them. Is suspect you are suffering from a type of counterfactual overconfidence barrier where you are having more confidence in the accuracy of your own judgement than is reasonable and imaging an outcome that never actually happened. There is no empirical evidence that a male to female transsexual's voice changes during HRT or gets "softer." The endogenous change here is usually due to one "trying" to sound more feminine so they conclude that it was the "hormones" that changed their voice or they make up elaborate stories to justify their erroneous belief that it "changed." There is nothing positive about spreading misinformation. You are, however, free to believe in delusions just as much as the next person, but there is no need to make mendacious claims that do not exist in reality.
Oh, wow. I have no idea what counterfactual overconfidence barrier is, but I did have imaginary friends when I was kid. Maybe those two issues are related.
Eh, nevermind then and try to have a good day.
Trying to type non gruffly, no HRT has not changed mine either :'(
L Katy
youre not alone its happened to me too got put on estro at 19 c :
@Emily, best response ever. I can't tell you how great it is to see such a gracious response in a conversation that could have easily turned into a flame war.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: Natalie on December 16, 2014, 04:13:39 AM
Your voice does not change during HRT. This should be an axiom by now. It's simply not medically possible. Claiming it does defies known medicine and is a delusional belief about the self typically used as a validation of one's femininity due to insecurities. Furthermore, it's extremely hard to get a person having delusions to admit it because it seems so real to them. Is suspect you are suffering from a type of counterfactual overconfidence barrier where you are having more confidence in the accuracy of your own judgement than is reasonable and imaging an outcome that never actually happened. There is no empirical evidence that a male to female transsexual's voice changes during HRT or gets "softer." The endogenous change here is usually due to one "trying" to sound more feminine so they conclude that it was the "hormones" that changed their voice or they make up elaborate stories to justify their erroneous belief that it "changed." There is nothing positive about spreading misinformation. You are, however, free to believe in delusions just as much as the next person, but there is no need to make mendacious claims that do not exist in reality.
Exactly. If E actually changes your voice. Then that must mean that I AM an anthro squirrel. :D
E will NOT have an effect of your voice. Some people enjoy lying to themselves to make them feel good. The ONLY thing that will change your voice is a LOT of serious work and practice. Anything else is a myth.
I think it is interesting to think the vocal chords can get thinner, but that is news to me if they do. Resonance may change a bit as the body reshapes, that is just how resonance works but the largest resonators stay the same so that effect is likely minimal.
Depending on where they live, most men talk in a lower pitch than their natural voice and most women talk in a higher pitch than their natural voice. I am sure many trans folk just stop using a lower or higher voice and find their neutral once they have allowed themselves to transition. Moving to a female register and melody can be a lot of work for a baritone or bass.
I don't know. For me there was a subtle shift. If I speak in my normal male voice all day, I lose my voice. But nothing has happened that makes my voice more feminine. It could just be that this topic has just not been researched enough by the scientific community. But I don't think large shifts happen.
Quote from: Tori on December 16, 2014, 01:13:05 PM
Moving to a female register and melody can be a lot of work for a baritone or bass.
Indeed it is.
I was a baritone when I was in my 8th grade choir. It took a LONG time once I began my transition in my late 20's. It took me a few years to get my voice to where it is now. (This was also hampered by my tonsil infection that I went through a few years ago. Along with their subsequent removal.) But with a LOT of work, I got my voice to its present state.
Meh, as long as I keep hearing women with deeper pitch than mine I'm not going to worry. Now, resonance is another matter.
Quote from: Natalie on December 16, 2014, 04:13:39 AM
Your voice does not change during HRT. This should be an axiom by now. It's simply not medically possible. Claiming it does defies known medicine and is a delusional belief about the self typically used as a validation of one's femininity due to insecurities. Furthermore, it's extremely hard to get a person having delusions to admit it because it seems so real to them. Is suspect you are suffering from a type of counterfactual overconfidence barrier where you are having more confidence in the accuracy of your own judgement than is reasonable and imaging an outcome that never actually happened. There is no empirical evidence that a male to female transsexual's voice changes during HRT or gets "softer." The endogenous change here is usually due to one "trying" to sound more feminine so they conclude that it was the "hormones" that changed their voice or they make up elaborate stories to justify their erroneous belief that it "changed." There is nothing positive about spreading misinformation. You are, however, free to believe in delusions just as much as the next person, but there is no need to make mendacious claims that do not exist in reality.
Tone aside, I very much agree with this post. Testosterone enlarges the vocal chords at puberty, enabling males to reach lower notes and have the deep chest resonance we work so hard to get rid of. Fortunately, we still have the capacity to limit the resonance and to raise our pitch to reasonably female levels.
So it's more likely that while HRT is working on your body, you're also working on your female presentation -- including voice. Learning to do different things with your voice takes time and so it could appear that HRT had something to do with it. But the reality is that you've exercised your vocal chords and have learned to use typically female speech patterns along the way. So if your voice is softer, then congratulate yourself. You've put in the work to achieve that.
In high school I sang bass in the choir, but I haven't been able to reach those lower notes for years. Why? Because I'm not regularly stretching my vocal chords to allow them to do that. And reaching higher notes works the same way. Repetition, exercise, repetition, repeat.
The reality is that having a more female sounding voice takes work...more work for some than others. And it's not helpful to give people hope that HRT will reduce the amount work needed to reach a passable voice.
Quote from: Laura Squirrel on December 16, 2014, 12:44:08 PM
Exactly. If E actually changes your voice. Then that must mean that I AM an anthro squirrel. :D
E will NOT have an effect of your voice. Some people enjoy lying to themselves to make them feel good. The ONLY thing that will change your voice is a LOT of serious work and practice. Anything else is a myth.
I am going to disagree with this because of what I mentioned previously - the informed consent paperwork I signed which mentioned voice changes and Jenny's comment about E thinning the vocal cords after she did her surgery with Yeson.
Of course I don't think the change is dramatic but I do think there is a small change. Probably not enough to give you a female voice but enough to make it just slightly easier to speak in a female range.
Quote from: ImagineKate on December 16, 2014, 08:54:07 PM
Jenny's comment about E thinning the vocal cords after she did her surgery with Yeson.
Yes...after she had
surgery. That is NOT the same thing at all.
Quote from: Laura Squirrel on December 16, 2014, 09:00:18 PM
Yes...after she had surgery. That is NOT the same thing at all.
Why not? What would cause E to thin the vocal cords after surgery but not before?
E does not thin your vocal cords, full stop.
Of course it doesn't change your vocal chords!!!
But as your body changes so does the timbre of your voice! because of what it is echoing through.
Albeit to varying and always minor degrees
Think of the difference between a quality violin and a rubbish one played by the same musican
Or a French horn made of tin compared to an identical one made of brass
They're only slightly different sounds, but they are different even if they are essentially unnoticeable
Yes, my voice did change during HRT :)
Whether or not it actually changed because of HRT, I guess that will remain one of life's big mysteries o:
Estrogen can cause changes in voice.
Specifically, post-menopausal women can have occurrences of menopausal vocal syndrome, and some menstruating women can have premenstrual vocal syndrome which includes lowered vocal intensity, vocal fatigue, a decreased range with loss of the high tones and a loss of vocal quality. In all cases where this occurred, it was successfully alleviated with estrogen therapy plus vitamins.
So yes, there are verified cases where estrogen can impact the vocal cords. Now, as to what can and cannot happen in transgender MtFs on HRT, that's an open question. Lacking actual data, I won't say it cannot happen at all but anecdotal experiences suggest that if it occurs, it is rare, and any such change would be small.
Actual studies:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10498059
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=s0034-72992008000400002&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
My voice also dramatically changed since being on hormones but it wasn't because of HRT. I began playing with my voice and eventually over time it learnt to fit into a female tone. I find it really hard to access my old voice but after singing along to Metalica for a while it can become male like.
Quote from: Jo-is-amazing on December 15, 2014, 08:46:09 PM
E will change your voice.
But not in the way your hoping for.
Well I didn't mean a big change my voice still sounds like a boy if I don't make any effort, but the pitch changed to some degree.
Quote from: Laura Squirrel on December 16, 2014, 12:44:08 PM
Exactly. If E actually changes your voice. Then that must mean that I AM an anthro squirrel. :D
E will NOT have an effect of your voice. Some people enjoy lying to themselves to make them feel good. The ONLY thing that will change your voice is a LOT of serious work and practice. Anything else is a myth.
Lying? I hope that was the answer, but it's hard to explain such rare cases.
I met a dude which voice would soften and get higher pitch with the effect of testosterone, now he sounds silly, like a cartoony character :3, it's got insane.
And if it affects your organs then there must be a difference... even if small... because I didn't actually mean you'd sound like a woman, but just softer and a lil increase of pitch, not like a big change, say a semitone.
Quote from: Jo-is-amazing on December 16, 2014, 09:23:28 PM
Of course it doesn't change your vocal chords!!!
But as your body changes so does the timbre of your voice! because of what it is echoing through.
Albeit to varying and always minor degrees
Think of the difference between a quality violin and a rubbish one played by the same musican
Or a French horn made of tin compared to an identical one made of brass
They're only slightly different sounds, but they are different even if they are essentially unnoticeable
Heh... X3 damn I love this answer, just what I mean XD same context XD
Quote from: LizMarie on December 17, 2014, 03:19:49 AM
Estrogen can cause changes in voice.
Specifically, post-menopausal women can have occurrences of menopausal vocal syndrome, and some menstruating women can have premenstrual vocal syndrome which includes lowered vocal intensity, vocal fatigue, a decreased range with loss of the high tones and a loss of vocal quality. In all cases where this occurred, it was successfully alleviated with estrogen therapy plus vitamins.
So yes, there are verified cases where estrogen can impact the vocal cords. Now, as to what can and cannot happen in transgender MtFs on HRT, that's an open question. Lacking actual data, I won't say it cannot happen at all but anecdotal experiences suggest that if it occurs, it is rare, and any such change would be small.
Actual studies:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10498059
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=s0034-72992008000400002&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
This answer is quite serious, yeah I'd love to see some research. Everything seems to be from subjectivity, and it seems that everyone takes for granted that the way the sounds are made come only from your vocal chords, they don't change, but other things related will, personally I'd check for the size of the lower torax muscles, that got smaller since estrogen, they can make echoes with the air in your lungs (musician point of view) which creates a lowering effect, also they are the ones who put strength in the air inside.
Doppler effect maybe??? maybe if the size of your throat decreases a bit the air must get out faster, that would cause a small barely noticeable increase in pitch.
There's no way I could possibly say for sure whether HRT has affected my voice. Much in the way I can't say for sure which things and to what extent T-blocker vs E have effected any other changes in my body, and also much in the way that laser/electrolysis/HRT have been varying percentages responsible for body hair changes and when. There's far too many variables.
I know my baseline voice is different now when I'm not trying but I've also been having speech therapy for a while. I can still push my voice down to approximately how I was speaking before but it doesn't settle there anymore. Talking with my old voice while looking in a mirror is definitely unsettling!
Personally, it hasn't changed at all, and I've been on mones for 5-6 years started at 17. But my voice was passable before my transition, tho its in the lower range for females. A funny story, I suddenly remembered a good friends phone number 3 years ago that I haven't seen since grade 6, he didn't know about my transition and I called him, he said I sound completely the same as I was in grade 6 lol.
FYI: I'm IS.
I'm 35, and I've noticed it's changed, but not my normal everyday voice. I used to do goofy voices, and I've found I can't do voices I used to.
Now I don't have an pretruding Adam's apple. But I find weird that, at work in a shirt and pants, people think I'm a guy. In my street clothes, people think I'm female. I was recently told by a complete stranger that I look and sound androgynous. Which could explain why I can't gender my own voice.
I've tried two apps that tells you pitch, but since I've always fluctuate my voice when I speek, I can't get a clear understanding of my voice.
Did you actually read the data before posting it? Menopausal voice syndrome causes women's voice to "deepen" due to a decreased amount of estrogen which is the same thing that happens to female to male transsexuals. Instead of make-believe, why don't we live over here in reality for a change?
Check out pages 36-38 in the standards of care V7 edition for WPATH's medical treatment of transgender & transsexual people. They have developed lots of practices and knowledge over many decades and even they don't mention any physical effects of a voice change for MtF patients. http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=1351&pk_association_webpage=4655
If you went through puberty and had the voice change drop occur then HRT sadly isn't going to really do anything for your voice other than have some very small minor effects if that. After 1 year of HRT I still sound pretty close to my pre HRT male voice and my hormone levels have been in the typical female ranges ever since I was 3 months on HRT but it's much harder to go that low since I spend most of my time in my female vocal range now that I live authentically and use my female voice every day all day. Testosterone widens, lengthens and thickens the vocal cords and this will never go away from being on HRT alone, you can surgically alter your vocal cords to give you a more feminine natural voice but even that is up to a lot of luck. I've heard good results and bad results from voice surgeries but at least Yeson has the best results I've heard of so far but it isn't cheap to have done either. This is where transgender men are lucky in that when they start testosterone their voice does change from being on HRT as their vocal cords are experiencing male puberty and start to widen, lengthen and thicken just like ours did when we went through our unwanted male puberty.
It sucks that we have to physically work on our voices unless you were lucky to have puberty blocked or that you already had a very androgynous voice to begin with. I have yet to meet a trans woman in person that had to go through the unwanted male puberty who did not have to work on their voice to get it to sound feminine. I have meet two lucky trans women who were able to start on T blockers in their early teens and they really didn't have to do much to get their voice to sound really good, and I'm happy for them that they don't have to go through the voice part of transitioning. Working on your voice is not fun, it's lots of work and many months to years of work, it's embarrassing, depressing when you feel like you aren't making progress and worse of all when you are out in public and your voice just isn't there then you run a much higher risk of getting clocked just because of that alone. Even when you get your voice to where it sounds good and somewhat comfortable to use, your old voice is still right there just waiting for a slip up to happen or you catch a cold and have your old voice back, or you cough >.<
This is why I tell every trans woman I meet that hasn't started HRT to start working on their voice right away if they plan on transitioning.
Quote from: Megumi on December 21, 2014, 01:53:06 PM
Check out pages 36-38 in the standards of care V7 edition for WPATH's medical treatment of transgender & transsexual people. They have developed lots of practices and knowledge over many decades and even they don't mention any physical effects of a voice change for MtF patients. http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=1351&pk_association_webpage=4655
If you went through puberty and had the voice change drop occur then HRT sadly isn't going to really do anything for your voice other than have some very small minor effects if that. After 1 year of HRT I still sound pretty close to my pre HRT male voice and my hormone levels have been in the typical female ranges ever since I was 3 months on HRT but it's much harder to go that low since I spend most of my time in my female vocal range now that I live authentically and use my female voice every day all day. Testosterone widens, lengthens and thickens the vocal cords and this will never go away from being on HRT alone, you can surgically alter your vocal cords to give you a more feminine natural voice but even that is up to a lot of luck. I've heard good results and bad results from voice surgeries but at least Yeson has the best results I've heard of so far but it isn't cheap to have done either. This is where transgender men are lucky in that when they start testosterone their voice does change from being on HRT as their vocal cords are experiencing male puberty and start to widen, lengthen and thicken just like ours did when we went through our unwanted male puberty.
It sucks that we have to physically work on our voices unless you were lucky to have puberty blocked or that you already had a very androgynous voice to begin with. I have yet to meet a trans woman in person that had to go through the unwanted male puberty who did not have to work on their voice to get it to sound feminine. I have meet two lucky trans women who were able to start on T blockers in their early teens and they really didn't have to do much to get their voice to sound really good, and I'm happy for them that they don't have to go through the voice part of transitioning. Working on your voice is not fun, it's lots of work and many months to years of work, it's embarrassing, depressing when you feel like you aren't making progress and worse of all when you are out in public and your voice just isn't there then you run a much higher risk of getting clocked just because of that alone. Even when you get your voice to where it sounds good and somewhat comfortable to use, your old voice is still right there just waiting for a slip up to happen or you catch a cold and have your old voice back, or you cough >.<
This is why I tell every trans woman I meet that hasn't started HRT to start working on their voice right away if they plan on transitioning.
My voice sounds female and I am not on HRT. I do slightly raise my larynx, an habit I am trying to overcome so I relax and sound less childish. But I can't make a male voice no matter how much I try, even though sometimes I wish could just so it would be a little easier. I do realize how lucky I am and I probably have low T as I am 18 and have no libido. But it is not easy to be this feminine and presenting as a guy.
That said I think HRT may effect voice but it is minimal and very unlikely for people, even ourselves, to notice. HRT may dry up the vocal cords so they end up vibrating slightly faster resulting in a slightly higher pitch but again it is really minimal. Only practice or surgery can change fundamentally how one sounds and is therefore gendered by the sound of the voice.
Quote from: Auroramarianna on December 21, 2014, 05:07:35 PM
That said I think HRT may effect voice but it is minimal and very unlikely for people, even ourselves, to notice. HRT may dry up the vocal cords so they end up vibrating slightly faster resulting in a slightly higher pitch but again it is really minimal. Only practice or surgery can change fundamentally how one sounds and is therefore gendered by the sound of the voice.
That's called ignorance. There is no empirical evidence to validate your claim...NONE, but hey, you are free to believe in make-believe just as much as the next person.
Quote from: Natalie on December 21, 2014, 05:35:45 PM
That's called ignorance. There is no empirical evidence to validate your claim...NONE, but hey, you are free to believe in make-believe just as much as the next person.
...LMAO whateva. Did you actually read my post?
BTW I am sure I read it somewhere, but if info is wrong then please feel free to refute my "claim", I wouldn't have taken offense. Do you really always have to be so rude, oh and allow me to clarify I am NOT on HRT yet and never said hormones would affect voice, if there is any effect at all, it is minimal.
Quote from: Auroramarianna on December 21, 2014, 05:38:16 PM
...LMAO whateva. Did you actually read my post?
BTW I am sure I read it somewhere, but if info is wrong then please feel free to refute my "claim", I wouldn't have taken offense. Do you really always have to be so rude, oh and allow me to clarify I am NOT on HRT yet and never said hormones would affect voice, if there is any effect at all, it is minimal.
Yeah I read your post. The part where you claim, "...I think HRT may effect voice..." is erroneous and there is no empirical evidence that validates the claim that HRT will affect the voice in Male to Female transsexuals. None. I am not saying that evidence won't magically appear at some future date that will give your claim validity, but there is currently no evidence to support it and my opinion goes wherever the evidence takes thus, HRT does not affect the voice in Male to Female transsexuals. Trying to credulously shift the burden of proof to me is a classic reasoning defect. It's not my job to give your theoretical position validity. I am also unsure how pointing out misinformation that has no basis in reality is rude. If you want to live in a delusional state that is your business, but trying to get others to believe in your delusions is not okay.
Might I say that MtF HRT may change the voice - if the HRT really brings out natural femaleness and with it the desire to be seen as female and that will surely drive the person to mimic female tones, expressions, and ways of speaking especially when in groups?
Quote from: Natalie on December 24, 2014, 02:37:13 AM
Yeah I read your post. The part where you claim, "...I think HRT may effect voice..." is erroneous and there is no empirical evidence that validates the claim that HRT will affect the voice in Male to Female transsexuals. None. I am not saying that evidence won't magically appear at some future date that will give your claim validity, but there is currently no evidence to support it and my opinion goes wherever the evidence takes thus, HRT does not affect the voice in Male to Female transsexuals. Trying to credulously shift the burden of proof to me is a classic reasoning defect. It's not my job to give your theoretical position validity. I am also unsure how pointing out misinformation that has no basis in reality is rude. If you want to live in a delusional state that is your business, but trying to get others to believe in your delusions is not okay.
I should imagine that if any evidence did appear then it would not be via magical means. Either way absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Your claim that HRT has
no effect on voice without citation is worth no more than her claim without citation, if we want to be all finicky about it. I believe that mainly you are right HRT has little effect on the voice directly. However it can have an effect via indirect means due to changes in body volume around where ones voice emanates. For example my neck is significantly thinner now than pre-HRT. This is likely to have some small effect on voice. FWIW I cite basic laws of physics for this claim vis a vis acoustics. As she said any change from HRT is likely to be minimal and any real change must be affected via voice training or surgery.
Taken as a whole and considering the second half of the area you quoted her claims are not all that outlandish even if the reasoning behind what might cause minor difference in the sound of a voice from HRT are likely to be entirely wrong. It is likely that your claim that HRT has
no effect on the voice is equally false and just as requiring of reasoning behind it if not more so (given the absoluteness of the statement) than hers that,
she thinks it may have a
small effect that
people probably wont even notice.
Like I said, everyone is free to live in delusional states. HRT does not change a male to females voice.
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Firat, Y., Engin-Ustun, Y., Kizilay, A., Ustun, Y., Akarcay, M., Selimoglu, E., & Kafkasli, A. (2009). Effect of intranasal estrogen on vocal quality. Journal of Voice, 23(6), 716-720.
Hershberger, I. G. (2005). The effects of singing exercises and melodic intonation therapy (MIT) on the male-to-female transgender voice (Doctoral dissertation, University of North Carolina at Greensboro).
Israel, G. E. (2001). Transgender care: Recommended guidelines, practical information, and personal accounts. Temple University Press.
Kain, A. B. (2001). High resolution voice transformation (Doctoral dissertation, Oregon Health & Science University).
Martin, K. A. (2007). Transsexualism: Clinical guide to gender identity disorder.Current Psychiatry, 6(2), 81.
McNeill, E. J., Wilson, J. A., Clark, S., & Deakin, J. (2008). Perception of voice in the transgender client. Journal of Voice, 22(6), 727-733.
Moore, E., Wisniewski, A., & Dobs, A. (2003). Endocrine treatment of transsexual people: a review of treatment regimens, outcomes, and adverse effects. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 88(8), 3467-3473.
Newman, S. R., Butler, J., Hammond, E. H., & Gray, S. D. (2000). Preliminary report on hormone receptors in the human vocal fold. Journal of voice, 14(1), 72-81.
Oriel, K. A. (2000). Clinical update: Medical care of transsexual patients. Journal of the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association, 4(4), 185-194.
Schirmer, A., Escoffier, N., Li, Q. Y., Li, H., Strafford-Wilson, J., & Li, W. I. (2008). What grabs his attention but not hers? Estrogen correlates with neurophysiological measures of vocal change detection.Psychoneuroendocrinology, 33(6), 718-727.
Yeah I noticed a change but it's not so direct, like my voice really wanted to go up n my low voice had became very uncomfortable, tho I've never really had a deep voice but it felt like my voice started to break, so does voice change with HRT? I would say yes n no because it does n did need some practice to get it higher, so I'm shore HRT helps but I would think it's probably much easier for the voice to go down then it is for it to go up for transsexuals, like I keep hearing FTM voices change much easier then MTF.
But we all know results differ from person to person :-\
Nice list of random information. Shame none of it will disprove the possibility of minute practically impossible to notice changes in tone caused by slight variations in size and material quality of the areas of resonance of the human voice brought about by HRT. AKA The theory posited by myself. Clearly such a theory though is of course delusional despite it having a clear scientific basis. Though if it makes you feel good to accuse people of being delusional with no real basis for doing so then feel free :)
:laugh: random information :D
Let's not forget that polling n consensus is also a science, like there's lots of unexplained things that lack scientific evidence, these things usually fall into the category of theoretical science, where there is an attempt to prove the theory and disprove the theory with little to no evidence (arguing the facts). But truly at the end of the day what is, is n cannot be told it is not, n I say in this topic it is possible out my knowledge of experience, the best science there is ;) and good luck proving me wrong n trying to tell me what it theoretically really is when it doesn't support my findings, because I know better so :P lol.
Quote from: Natalie on December 24, 2014, 05:00:55 PM
Like I said, everyone is free to live in delusional states. HRT does not change a male to females voice.
Dear Natalie,
Please chill out! Just take a few deep breaths and calm down.
I think you're a bit loose with the word "delusional".
"HRT cured my cancer and gave me the power to fly. I just did a few laps around the equator this morning!" =
delusion"HRT might make your voice ever so slightly more feminine." =/= delusion
Quote from: Seras on December 24, 2014, 05:39:55 PM
Though if it makes you feel good to accuse people of being delusional with no real basis for doing so then feel free :)
^^this. I agree pretty much with all your points, Seras. Thanks for putting into words the thoughts I struggled to express.
To Natalie, you are actually committing the Argumentum ad ignorantiam logical falacy. Lack of proof for the existence of life outside earth does not prove the unexistence of life outside the earth. Merely no proof in favor or against it has been found yet.
Clearly if there are changes they are small, making it hard to prove, and so far I have never read that voice does ABSOLUTELY not change on HRT like you claim. All I have read is that pitch does not appear to increase. However, pitch isn't the only determinant of voice. There are many more variables that may have not been fully studied.
Quote from: Natalie on December 24, 2014, 05:00:55 PM
Like I said, everyone is free to live in delusional states. HRT does not change a male to females voice.
References
Adler, R. (2007). Peer Reviewed Article Gender Voice Issues: Voice and Communication Therapy for Transsexual/Transgender Clients. Voice and Speech Review, 5(1), 293-299.
Aloisi, A. M., Bachiocco, V., Costantino, A., Stefani, R., Ceccarelli, I., Bertaccini, A., & Meriggiola, M. C. (2007). Cross-sex hormone administration changes pain in transsexual women and men. Pain, 132, S60-S67.
Coleman, E., Bockting, W., Botzer, M., Cohen-Kettenis, P., DeCuypere, G. R. E. T. A., Feldman, J., ... & Zucker, K. (2012). Standards of care for the health of transsexual, transgender, and gender-nonconforming people, version 7.International Journal of ->-bleeped-<-, 13(4), 165-232.
Dahl, M., Feldman, J. L., Goldberg, J. M., & Jaberi, A. (2006). Physical aspects of transgender endocrine therapy. International Journal of ->-bleeped-<-, 9(3-4), 111-134.
Davies, S., & Goldberg, J. M. (2006). Clinical aspects of transgender speech feminization and masculinization. International Journal of ->-bleeped-<-, 9(3-4), 167-196.
Gammon, K. S. (2007). Changing her tune: how a transsexual woman claims a new identity through voice (Doctoral dissertation, Massachusetts Institute of Technology).
Gorham-Rowan, M., & Morris, R. (2006). Aerodynamic analysis of male-to-female transgender voice. Journal of Voice, 20(2), 251-262.
Firat, Y., Engin-Ustun, Y., Kizilay, A., Ustun, Y., Akarcay, M., Selimoglu, E., & Kafkasli, A. (2009). Effect of intranasal estrogen on vocal quality. Journal of Voice, 23(6), 716-720.
Hershberger, I. G. (2005). The effects of singing exercises and melodic intonation therapy (MIT) on the male-to-female transgender voice (Doctoral dissertation, University of North Carolina at Greensboro).
Israel, G. E. (2001). Transgender care: Recommended guidelines, practical information, and personal accounts. Temple University Press.
Kain, A. B. (2001). High resolution voice transformation (Doctoral dissertation, Oregon Health & Science University).
Martin, K. A. (2007). Transsexualism: Clinical guide to gender identity disorder.Current Psychiatry, 6(2), 81.
McNeill, E. J., Wilson, J. A., Clark, S., & Deakin, J. (2008). Perception of voice in the transgender client. Journal of Voice, 22(6), 727-733.
Moore, E., Wisniewski, A., & Dobs, A. (2003). Endocrine treatment of transsexual people: a review of treatment regimens, outcomes, and adverse effects. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 88(8), 3467-3473.
Newman, S. R., Butler, J., Hammond, E. H., & Gray, S. D. (2000). Preliminary report on hormone receptors in the human vocal fold. Journal of voice, 14(1), 72-81.
Oriel, K. A. (2000). Clinical update: Medical care of transsexual patients. Journal of the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association, 4(4), 185-194.
Schirmer, A., Escoffier, N., Li, Q. Y., Li, H., Strafford-Wilson, J., & Li, W. I. (2008). What grabs his attention but not hers? Estrogen correlates with neurophysiological measures of vocal change detection.Psychoneuroendocrinology, 33(6), 718-727.
thank you for calling bull on this pseudo scientific , placebo sugar pill topic.
HRT has not any scientific evidence to change voice.
You must either train for it, or go for surgery.
And I shall raise my voice.
Discussion is fine, nit picking argument is not.
If you don't agree with something, say so and move on.
Just be aware; I'm not particularly full of Christmas cheer.
Any silly arguments will be dealt with.
Quote from: Seras on December 24, 2014, 05:39:55 PM
Nice list of random information. Shame none of it will disprove the possibility of minute practically impossible to notice changes in tone caused by slight variations in size and material quality of the areas of resonance of the human voice brought about by HRT. AKA The theory posited by myself. Clearly such a theory though is of course delusional despite it having a clear scientific basis. Though if it makes you feel good to accuse people of being delusional with no real basis for doing so then feel free :)
Oh it's not "random information" and every single one of those studies address the HRT voice issue and they all say the same thing - HRT has no effect on a male to females voice. Like I said, my opinion goes wherever the evidence takes it. Thinking otherwise is what I call "magical thinking (e.g. omitted variable bias)." You are, however, free to keep a delusional belief, but misleading those less learned than oneself is nothing short of mendacious. Fact is, there is no empirical evidence to refute my position and decades of research that shows yours has no basis in reality. All I see is the dissonance emerging due to empirical reality conflicting with one's internalized belief thus, you do whatever you need to in order to validate your own erroneous perception by engaging in reasoning defects...
Icannot stand it when people spread outright lies to our social minority due to their own self-induced ignorance on the subject matter. I have to understand that not everyone is in my lexicon and there are a lot of people that don't know any better, but I won't sit back while people spread potentially harmful information to transgender people especially those just starting out and questioning everyone about who they are. Take that however you will.
Topic locked