Has anyone here had FFS and really struggled to pass before they had it done? if eel like most people going into it could at least pass half if not most of the time, so I'm a bit worried as I have only been able to ever really pass a bit less than half the time at this point. (though it's hard to tell) And if so, did FFS really help or were you still stuck not really passing? Did your rate of passing go up?
Everyone right down to an actual FFS surgeon has said with FFS I should be fine but I have my doubts because I'm just built so damn big.
Would love to hear feedback from others who might have been in a similar spot.
I'm in the same spot as you. I don't really pass and I'm looking at surgeons for FFS consults now. I'm scared I'll go through this surgery and still come out of it not passing. I don't know if I can trust what FFS surgeons are telling me either. I don't need touch ups for rough angles, I need major changes.
I'd love to hear what surgeons they went to too.
It is possible you may come out not passing as much as you'd like, or perhaps not as much as you'd like at first. I've posted elsewhere that I would urge against relying on FFS as a passing panacea. Too much of passing has to do with factors other than face (body mass, chest/shoulders, voice, mannerisms) but also there are limits to what any surgeon can do with a strongly masculine face. In the hands of a good surgeon, you will pass better, but to what extent it will be fully, it's going to vary between individuals, and even for the same person at times. Also, it takes some time before you'd even know, as it takes time for swelling to go down and your face to settle. Passing (meaning unquestioned) 100% of the time is tough for many, and I suspect at times the best one can hope for is that people may wonder, but not clock you.
I may be similar in that I really didn't feel comfortable I could go forward unless I passed enough to live unnoticed, or at least not noticed for the wrong reasons. To me passing would also determine whether I did bottom surgery, or might consider stopping. I had mixed signals,and I tried to test my passing. I was legally "transitioned" before FFS, meaning I had already changed my name, DL gender, etc., so my RLE started before FFS, and I wasn't challenged at airports etc. Outside my home town I also had been using the women's room for months before I had even legally changed because I was getting challenged by men (never women oddly). But I did get looks time to time from men mainly. It seemed was a very masculine looking woman, but that wasn't much comfort to me. I really didn't feel I passed the way I wanted to (which was the key issue) prior FFS, though I wasn't confronted etc. I was also self employed, so I wasn't necessarily going to get push back professionally. Whether that was because most people don't care or didn't look that closely, I'm not sure. Friends tend to protect you when it comes to passing as well. They don't want to be the ones to discourage you. Still, I never felt I had honest answers. In reality, it is a decision based on what YOU feel and want, not them. For me, my decision to go ahead with FFS (and I did it all apart from tracheal and with Spiegel) was because I thought I would be more comfortable or at ease day to day. I would be less masculine. I wanted more from it, but that was basically how I approached it. In that, I know I am far less masculine than I was. I'm no beauty: I get "you are a striking, handsome woman." meh. I have reconciled myself to the "female ex-athlete" look. But I'm also an older transitioner, and a full FFS would be to "buy time" socially so to speak. I already didn't look my age, but post FFS (and with high fitness), most people think I am 12-15 years younger than I am. I felt it might give me a chance to evolve and have a social life, not be invisible as a middle-aged woman.
It has been imperfect. I feel more confident post FFS, and also post GRS (which was 18 months later), but I also know I doubt myself and am more withdrawn socially than I was in the past as a result. FFS helped, and I am not "sirred", but I also I avoid prolonged conversations with new people and dating isn't in my notion of the possible at the moment. I do worry about being seen only as T and passing was a goal because I wanted to at least have a chance to earn an identity as someone not "other." I will have to move to another area to explore that, as I transitioned in the open here because I was "known."
While I would listen to what a surgeon says about what they can do for you, I would not rely on that. They will reassure: it IS a business to them as well (as is most of the gender reassignment universe. When was the last time you heard of a PS saying "I'm sorry, there is nothing I can do for you."?), though they want to please you. They best thing you can do is look independently at a surgeon's results in any way you can -- ideally in the flesh otherwise from people not on a surgeon's website. I'm sure you have been doing that. But really, be honest about what you are trying to achieve with the FFS -- which is only going to address that part of your anatomy. It's just one element of passing, though admittedly an important one. There are so many variables at work in passing and you have to address as many as you can. I personally feel that chest/shoulders, which is harder to modify if at all (you can lose bulk but not the underlying bone), is the one area you have to come to terms with and decide whether what you see is OK to you post transition. You say you are "so damn big" (and IDK if that is actually true), but FFS won't address that one variable. Only you can decide if the whole package works as you want it to to feel comfortable post transition.
FFS can only help most people look better and pass better, but if it's going to determine whether you transition I'd be cautious. It's not an absolute and it's only one factor as I said. It's painful, and it changes how you see yourself and how others see you. Who I was outwardly is gone -- and that has affected how I see me and all my relationships. It hasn't destroyed them, but people have to adapt.
So if you pass like 40% now or less and it goes up to 60% - would that not be in any case a plus? I think face and voice are two major factors in passing. Being tall or maybe have a bit of a more male built is not as important. I have a big built - wide shoulders but I am not tall. I usually get asked if I did Pro swimming or body building. So of course it still depends - basically passing is a sum of all kinds of little things and if the total is above the perception limits of a certain person, it means you pass - To pass with everyone ever, that sum would have to be enourmous, but I think every bit counts - some can be changed and some not, so all that is left is to change the ones that can be changed. Voice, Face, Breasts, Body shape - and for some also body language, was of speaking, behaviours.
Quote from: Sabine on December 21, 2014, 04:41:20 PM
Stuff
I'm 2.5 years on HRT btw.
I had a consult with Spiegel and he said I was in a very good place and I didn't have much o worry about going into FFS but of course I have my doubts.
When he swy me he said from the neck down I looked fine and many people seem to agree who have seen me. Honestly my biggest worry is my head and face. He told me the stuff he couldn't fix is already working on my head and face and the stuff that isn't working he could fix. He seemed very positive. Also, I transitioned at 24 and even though I generally don't pass I am mistaken for much younger than my age. (I'm 27 now and most people think I'm 20 or sometimes even 18)
So adunno if I have hope. Maybe. I can PM timeline and pics and whatnot to give a better idea.
Quote from: anjaq on December 21, 2014, 04:52:00 PM
So if you pass like 40% now or less and it goes up to 60% - would that not be in any case a plus? I think face and voice are two major factors in passing. Being tall or maybe have a bit of a more male built is not as important. I have a big built - wide shoulders but I am not tall. I usually get asked if I did Pro swimming or body building. So of course it still depends - basically passing is a sum of all kinds of little things and if the total is above the perception limits of a certain person, it means you pass - To pass with everyone ever, that sum would have to be enourmous, but I think every bit counts - some can be changed and some not, so all that is left is to change the ones that can be changed. Voice, Face, Breasts, Body shape - and for some also body language, was of speaking, behaviours.
I remember you mentioned adding up passability by body parts. Seeing as my general shape is pretty andro femme I guess I'm ok, but I have square shoulders, big hands and feet (8 inch long hands, size 12 shoes) and small hips, so I worry I have less going for me than what's working.
This was me before FFS : https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174887.msg1538251.html#msg1538251
I think it is reasonable to say that I didn't pass even remotely.
Quote from: anjaq on December 21, 2014, 04:52:00 PM
So if you pass like 40% now or less and it goes up to 60% - would that not be in any case a plus? I think face and voice are two major factors in passing. Being tall or maybe have a bit of a more male built is not as important. I have a big built - wide shoulders but I am not tall. I usually get asked if I did Pro swimming or body building. So of course it still depends - basically passing is a sum of all kinds of little things and if the total is above the perception limits of a certain person, it means you pass - To pass with everyone ever, that sum would have to be enourmous, but I think every bit counts - some can be changed and some not, so all that is left is to change the ones that can be changed. Voice, Face, Breasts, Body shape - and for some also body language, was of speaking, behaviours.
I'm going to put it out there and say I'm talking about my face passing in real life, I want people to say "that's a girl", not "that's a guy". Photos are horrible in this regard. With the perfect angle, bad lighting and a good filter someone that is unmistakably male can come out looking ambiguous.I don't think going from 40% to 60% (or in my case 0% to 40%) would be a satisfying result when I'm paying upwards of $30000 to $40000 and going through months of recovery.
My body is another issue and not what I'm getting FFS for. I'm well aware there is nothing that I can do about my rib cage size or my shoulders. I have to live with the fact that I went through male puberty. Clothing can hide most of those imperfections. My voice is mostly fine, I get gendered female 99% of the time voice chatting in games.
I hate the idea of posting images online, but here's what I'm working with: http://imgur.com/TXe0b7t,dLyYibW
Nevara, that face seems to be pretty ok - I dont think you even need massive work there. Some much more masculine faces have managed to be feminized :)
And of course 99% or 100% passability is the goal, but in reality - I would be glad about every % I can increase by some means or another.
Donna - that pre op Photo was already with HRT and electrolysis? Those two also add quite a bit. Did you go from that pre op photo to post op immediately - so you did FFS as the first step before HRT or "living fulltime"?
I think if the built is androgynous with a bit male parts like wider shoulders and such, tha face and a good voice can compensate. if you are of course built like a price boxer or a weight lifter, I am not sure...
Quote from: anjaq on December 22, 2014, 04:15:12 AM
Donna - that pre op Photo was already with HRT and electrolysis? Those two also add quite a bit. Did you go from that pre op photo to post op immediately - so you did FFS as the first step before HRT or "living fulltime"?
Hi Anjaq
Already almost 3 year's HRT when that photo was taken but no electrolysis yet. For pretty obvious reasons, I didn't make any attempt to go fulltime until I had all of my FFS surgeries behind me ie. Sept 2012. Today, based on my many interactions with other people, I think I pass pretty comfortably. However, to totally finish the job, in just over two weeks I'll be doing a Croton chemical peel to get a smoother skin on my upper lip and chin.
Oh :( 3 years of hormone treatment already? I understand fully not wanting to try and "pass" at that stage. But it must have taken some more time to at least get some hair growth back after having it so short. Its pretty amazing how much change you have gotten out of the surgery - no wonder you are always so excited about FFS
Quote from: anjaq on December 22, 2014, 09:49:23 AM
Oh :( 3 years of hormone treatment already? I understand fully not wanting to try and "pass" at that stage. But it must have taken some more time to at least get some hair growth back after having it so short. Its pretty amazing how much change you have gotten out of the surgery - no wonder you are always so excited about FFS
I stopped and started HRT a couple of times between Sept 2008 and July 2011 when that photo was taken but, the cumulated total was well over two years. I had my last "guy" haircut in January 2012 and when hair transplants are taken into account (Dec 2012), it has taken me up until now to have hair I am fully happy with. I think I finally stopped using a wig about a year ago but it is really only since last summer that it has all come together.
Regarding FFS, it was definitely a life changer for me and without it I just couldn't have transitioned, it would have been far too difficult for both me and all the people I am close to . However, I'm not at all convinced it's necessary for everyone, especially the younger girls. Even I could probably have passed quite well when I was 18 :)
Anyway, all I was trying to point out is that FFS can effectively make someone who is totally unpassable (me pre-FFS) very comfortably passable,so much so that several people who knew me from before who didn't see me during my transition now think I am my own wife.. :)
Quote from: lemons on December 21, 2014, 02:24:00 PM
Has anyone here had FFS and really struggled to pass before they had it done? if eel like most people going into it could at least pass half if not most of the time, so I'm a bit worried as I have only been able to ever really pass a bit less than half the time at this point. (though it's hard to tell) And if so, did FFS really help or were you still stuck not really passing? Did your rate of passing go up?
Everyone right down to an actual FFS surgeon has said with FFS I should be fine but I have my doubts because I'm just built so damn big.
Would love to hear feedback from others who might have been in a similar spot.
I passed with no problems even before FFS so for me the results were subtle. The brow lift made the most difference though. It was pretty noticeable difference. If I had maleness at all its gone now for sure.
Hi Donna,
you did your ffs in two times. Could you explain why in two times, and what on the first and on the second.
Personally, I find that it is a success.
Take care of yourself,
Hannah
PS : are you french ?
There are so many factors and variables in terms of "Passability" I have met tall Trans-women you would never look at twice and I have also met short, petite trans-woman who were more clockable. Take into account various factors definitely face+voice rank in the top five.
Quote from: Hannahh on December 27, 2014, 12:10:36 PM
Hi Donna,
you did your ffs in two times. Could you explain why in two times, and what on the first and on the second.
Personally, I find that it is a success.
Take care of yourself,
Hannah
PS : are you french ?
Hi Hannah
I did my FFS in two sessions for two reasons:
1. There was too much to do in one session, about 17 hours of surgery.
2. In July 2011 I still wasn't sure I was going to transition and I was hedging my bets.
This also explains what I did first, upper face (Forehead and orbital recontouring with a coronal incision, upper & lower blepharoplasy, rhinoplasty, upper lip lift, malar implants & lipo fill of upper lip and cheeks). I still had no problem presenting as a guy after these procedures. However that changed after the lower face surgery (chin hight reduction (genioplasty), jaw recontouring, 2nd rhinoplasty and MACS facelift). Once I had recovered from that I started to male fail very frequently, even wearing a suit, exactly what I wanted.
Lastly, yes I am a French citizen and live in France but was not born here..
Take care too!
Donna
Thats interesting, as most surgeons describe the upper face work to be more dramatic in impact than the lower face work. Not being able to pass as male even if one tries to, that is amazing :P - I think I still could do that if I want to :( - with the proper haircut, binders and clothes. So not being able to do that must be incredibly calming. I still ponder if I want FFS one day, but for now my money is spent on VFS, it will take 2-3 Years to get enough for more procedures.
Quote from: anjaq on December 21, 2014, 04:52:00 PM
So if you pass like 40% now or less and it goes up to 60% - would that not be in any case a plus? I think face and voice are two major factors in passing. Being tall or maybe have a bit of a more male built is not as important. I have a big built - wide shoulders but I am not tall. I usually get asked if I did Pro swimming or body building. So of course it still depends - basically passing is a sum of all kinds of little things and if the total is above the perception limits of a certain person, it means you pass - To pass with everyone ever, that sum would have to be enourmous, but I think every bit counts - some can be changed and some not, so all that is left is to change the ones that can be changed. Voice, Face, Breasts, Body shape - and for some also body language, was of speaking, behaviours.
You said you're not tall, may I know how tall you are? I'm an asian mtf and I'm 170 cm, so am I too tall as a woman?
I suppose I'm replying to this a bit late, but I thought I'd share my opinion with anyone who is interested.
For Nevara, if you read this:
Your face is in an excellent place for FFS, from the looks of that photo. Your problem areas are forehead/orbital rims, chin shape and height, nose, and jaw corners. These also happen to be the most focused on areas by surgeons, in my opinion, and are frequently changed dramatically. You have good secondary (not as important in being clocked, but still worth taking into consideration) features such as upper eyelid exposure, canthal tilt (tilt of the eyes from both inner fleshy bits -- women tend to have more up-tilted eyes), lip balance, and certainly acceptable feminine facial ratio thirds (which are one of the things that cannot be changed). The only other things I would consider taking a look at are maybe a lip lift (your philtrum length is ever so slightly long) and the volume of your cheeks, though either of those certainly wouldn't give you away.
To other people:
It takes a truly exaggerated masculine feature to ruin a good face, voice, and natural set of mannerisms. You'd have to have enormous shoulders (like 19-20"+ at 5'10"), extraordinarily veiny or monstrously thick hands, facial hair, blatantly male fat distribution that was never exercised away, or a mild combination of several of these things in concert with a height exceeding 6 feet. The height, of course, depends on where you are in the world and what your ethnicity is; taller in the Netherlands, shorter in most parts of Asia, etc.
One thing to keep in mind is that taller women tend to have more exaggerated features. Their figures creep toward the slender and emphasize verticality. They are slightly more prone to wider shoulders and bigger feet, by ratio. Certainly, having a shoe size just outside of what you find in the store or shoulders that are an inch or two wider than average will not compromise your presentation. There are very few people that FFS cannot help get complete passability, assuming that voice and mannerisms are in place. The few exceptions tend to have exceptionally long or thin faces -- and there are many exceptions to that group, as well.
Well, I am just over 5-6 feet tall but thick on top with a long back so I have a big upper body..
I had FFS and now I can't pass as male.. if I try to people would wonder why I look like a chick.
I really don't think I could have passed without FFS even though everyone even my soon to be ex wife but best friend said I did not need it...
My upper lip was too long I have half what I had now..and I had a cute nose but its better now..
Its really a super personal decision on what one does or can live with..
I will never be happy with my bigger upper body but my and the way I dress makes the difference.
Its great that you are thinking about it now.. its also something a therapist can help with too.
BTW my profile pic is three weeks post op... I had a 10 hour surgery... ugh.. it was a major event.. more so than I imagined it would be.
Funny though at the airport the guy and gal pushing me in the wheelchair to the plane were telling people we need to get this young lady to her gate....as we went through the airport. I am 55 and did not hesitate to use the womans restrooom 6 days post op..
Dodie
Before going into FFS, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have passed:
(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0B1qK1QDKjDX4LUdsb3Q4M3NLeUE)
That doesn't mean I couldn't have been happy, but I am now much more comfortable in my skin.
Quote from: Sybil on January 30, 2015, 10:54:20 AM
I suppose I'm replying to this a bit late, but I thought I'd share my opinion with anyone who is interested.
To other people:
It takes a truly exaggerated masculine feature to ruin a good face, voice, and natural set of mannerisms. You'd have to have enormous shoulders (like 19-20"+ at 5'10"), extraordinarily veiny or monstrously thick hands, facial hair, blatantly male fat distribution that was never exercised away, or a mild combination of several of these things in concert with a height exceeding 6 feet. The height, of course, depends on where you are in the world and what your ethnicity is; taller in the Netherlands, shorter in most parts of Asia, etc.
One thing to keep in mind is that taller women tend to have more exaggerated features. Their figures creep toward the slender and emphasize verticality. They are slightly more prone to wider shoulders and bigger feet, by ratio. Certainly, having a shoe size just outside of what you find in the store or shoulders that are an inch or two wider than average will not compromise your presentation. There are very few people that FFS cannot help get complete passability, assuming that voice and mannerisms are in place. The few exceptions tend to have exceptionally long or thin faces -- and there are many exceptions to that group, as well.
I'm working with a body at 6 feet tall, size 12 women's shoes, somewhat bigger but still relatively thin hands, and my shoulders are about 17.5 inches. My body isn't great...but I've been told it's feminine enough, especially if I were to gain hips and gain a smaller waist working out would likely help a lot. My head is enormous though, like a giant bowling ball or an outer planet. It measures at 23.7 inches or 60 cm around, and I've heard of even cis women with this sized head but it looks different than mine, not so massive and out of place on their body. When I had my consult with Spiegel I expressed all my concerns and he said 1. My body was basically fine and 2. It wasn't the size that was too big but the shape of my head being rather square and long and they could help make it rounder and smaller. He also seemed very confident with my post-op outcome telling me several times I could probably even go back to having short hair, I'd likely make for a very attractive woman, and I have little to worry about.
Yet I still have my doubts. :/
Hairline lowering, some setting back of your forehead with proper type3, nose revision for smaller more feminine nose, liplift, and appropriate jaw&chin agressive work, would make your head definitely apear much smaller. You cant change overall size of your head, but a good surgeon is capable of reshaping your face in a way that your will face appear and become smaller, and that would make all your head appear smaller. That wouldn't be a serious concern for me at all. Also a very little head would make your shoulders and neck look much broader and wider. A slightly bigger than ideal head makes your shoulders look narrower, which isn't such a bad thing at all. I'm also 6 feet tall, but rather very slight built, with little hands, small feet, and a smaller size head.. which makes my average size 17 inch shoulders appear a little broader than they really are. And I'm not too thrilled about that. But I do eat a LOT of chocolate&stuff to compensate with the width of my hips