That's one thing that nags at me all the time. How do others interpret my writing style?
If they were to read one of my five or six paragraph rants would they think a man wrote
it or a woman? Is my diction too turgid to naturally be one gender or the other?
From my own experience reading the works of Dion Fortune, Mme. Helena Blavatsky, or
Camille Paglia clearly proves that women are fully capable of elaborate and cerebral writing
with vast and impressive vocabularies. I certainly wouldn't have thought otherwise; but we
live in a world where genders are supposed to fit their molds. Men are passionate, assertive
and intellectual; women are passive, humble and simple in thought; and any variation
outside of this "norm" is considered to be an anomaly or a peculiar turn of events for that
one individual turning them out "advanced" (i.e. "you're pretty smart...for a girl" ).
But history tells us that the women of antiquity — long before any patriarchal takeover —
were the leading minds of all higher education, scientific discovery, mathematics, art, and
so on. Many of you may take this as myth, but what I'm referring to are the civilisations
that populated Appalachia (city of Atlantis) and Oceana (city of Lemuria). Then came the
flood and washed away with flora and fauna was the goddess traditions and the high
reverence of the feminine.
So, I think it's important to bring into focus a woman's genius, and that — with proper
understanding of both men and women as being equally capable of genius — it is
completely impossible to identify gender in printed word. And honestly, I'd rather not
run into a situation where someone decides to accuse me of being male from writing
something highly verbose and exceptionally nuanced in the subjects of psychology,
or religion, or sociology.
Would you say this is a valid point or am I being too paranoid?
I sometimes play a game called Bad Eggs Online. The only way to communicate us via a text chat. There is no voice chat. There are no pictures, video, or voice. But there are a lot of horny teenagers.
One day, I got tired of being hit on by the kids. So I changed my avatar to a male avatar. People promptly started telling me the various things I was doing wrong. As in, "if you want people to think you're a guy, you need to do _______." So no one was fooled and, after a few games, I gave up.
Then, some months later, I was having again dealing with annoying teens. So I did the same thing. And again had the same result.
It's was very weird. I still have no idea what happened there or how anyone would know that I wasn't quite male.
But I guess it shows that a part of gender is its performance. How we talk and how we act are gender cues as much as how we look. And that applies even to what we write in pure text.
If I didn't tell people I was female back before I knew about being FTM, everyone assumed I was male.
I have no idea how my writing is perceived, tbh. I would say the difference in writing between genders probably has more to do with style and structure than vocabulary or intellect tho.
Quote from: BunnyBee on December 26, 2014, 09:00:37 PM
I have no idea how my writing is perceived, tbh. I would say the difference in writing between genders probably has more to do with style and structure than vocabulary or intellect tho.
I've always been terrible at vocalising my thoughts and feelings (thanks, Asperger's), so writing naturally became my outlet. I never expressed myself in any particular
gender direction. I think growing up and being immersed in the expected social environments plays a big part in how one might tend to have a recognisable male or female style.
I only ever had one or two friends at a time. My childhood bestie was a tomboy, and we'd run around letting our imaginations run wild as we'd seek out invisible creatures and creep ourselves out with fantastical ideas about what might be lurking in the window of some abandoned house or the deep of the woods. When we'd play with Ninja Turtle action figures we weren't battling the baddies with lots of sound effects; we'd actually create unique storylines while giving them dialog that you might see in some supernatural drama.
I never joined in with any boy activities, or played any sports, or did any "rough-housing". It was always about creating elaborate fantasies, playing piano, reading, writing, drawing and singing along to Mariah Carey or New Kids On The Block (that is, until I discovered progressive rock when I was 13).
So, I can't even contemplate what my writing style says about me, gender-wise. I always knew — somewhere in some vague place in my brain — that I was different. I even experimented in the bathroom with clothes and makeup, but still it never crossed my mind
why I did it. I've always just been Me, whatever that was.
The only thing I can think of that would suggest any underlying masculinity is how much I rely on logic and reason, but only from a philosophical place. I've always been equally emotionally sensitive. It's like I have no Left-Brain
or Right-Brain dominance. I just know who I am, and the only way to express that fully is through this transition.
Here are two quotes from two different people. Tell me which one you think came from a man and which one came from a woman:
△
"No enunciation of the Truth will ever be complete, no method of training will ever be suitable for all temperaments, no one can do more than mark out the little plot of infinity which he intends to cultivate, and thrust in the spade, trusting that the soil may eventually be fruitful and free from weeds so far as the bounds he has set himself extend...."△
"Plato defined good as threefold in character: good in the soul, expressed through the virtues; good in the body, expressed through the symmetry and endurance of the parts; and good in the external world, expressed through social position and companionship."
Well, I do a lot of fiction writing and love writing (and drawing) female characters. Even before I came out and transitioned people told me that they loved my female characters because they were so natural and believable. That was certainly quite a compliment and it became clear that I was living vicariously through my female characters and it was helping me to cope with my dysphoria in a very significant way.
Sometimes in the voice I speak in, but usually some kind of gender neutral voice.
Quote from: Ms Grace on December 26, 2014, 10:02:20 PM
Well, I do a lot of fiction writing and love writing (and drawing) female characters. Even before I came out and transitioned people told me that they loved my female characters because they were so natural and believable. That was certainly quite a compliment and it became clear that I was living vicariously through my female characters and it was helping me to cope with my dysphoria in a very significant way.
I imagine my female characters would be far more believable, as well, if I ever get around to writing one of my stories. Any male characters would have to be based on things I've observed, or they'd all end up seeming quite androgynous in personality. The only thing I write that isn't extensive prose is highly introspective and abstract poetry. Sometimes, though — depending on what music I'm listening to — I'll end up writing something like this: http://illuminess.net/poetry/justlikeme.htm
Regarding living vicariously, I've done that with various TV characters like "Sofie" from
Carnivale, "Lisbeth" from
The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, and various roles played by Christina Ricci. Dysphoria wasn't something that came to mind, though (not that it wasn't the case). I just really felt close to those characters and wished I was like them.
When talking I'd say my prosody is very direct; all words properly enunciated. They say men speak with more slang and half-pronounced words, and I guess that's true. I've always hated slang and words like "ain't". I'm just a writer at heart, though. There's not a day that I don't visit a dictionary or a thesaurus.
Pretty much every person I've talked to online had assumed I'm actually biologically a female. I like that, only I have problems with going to far. I know I should tell them sorry, I'm not bit many times I like they think I'm female so I don't tell them anything. Many times they'll grow attached to me the I have to tell them cuz I'm never interested in being more than friends and I've lost many friends due to this. Some don't care and are alright with it. I have one friend though I really need to tell but I've been scared and haven't been able to catch him on lately. But I really do need to tell him. Getting teal key tired of hurting people by letting them get close enough to hurt the mosy when I have to push them away.
Have you tried http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php (http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php)?
I think it's actually less of an issue than we might think. I just read an article a few days ago about how two professors were able to "switch" genders while teaching an online class simply by using a different name, in a study designed to test how gender effects course evaluations, and the results were consistent for both of them. (The "female" professor was rated lower in professionalism, organization, and promptness, regardless of the actual gender of the professor.) So even though there are measured differences between male and female writing styles, (mainly just in that men tend to use more quantifiers, adverbs, and numerical descriptions, while women use more pronouns and possessives,) it's usually not enough that people can actually notice. Back on my days on Gamespark.com, where you chatted with people while playing chess/checkers, I was generally able to "pass" as either sex equally well, just by telling them that I was male or female.
Quote from: suzifrommd on December 27, 2014, 09:06:00 AM
Have you tried http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php (http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php)?
I get male on this :|
Quote from: Carrie Liz on December 27, 2014, 01:20:11 PM
I think it's actually less of an issue than we might think. I just read an article a few days ago about how two professors were able to "switch" genders while teaching an online class simply by using a different name, in a study designed to test how gender effects course evaluations, and the results were consistent for both of them. (The "female" professor was rated lower in professionalism, organization, and promptness, regardless of the actual gender of the professor.) So even though there are measured differences between male and female writing styles, (mainly just in that men tend to use more quantifiers, adverbs, and numerical descriptions, while women use more pronouns and possessives,) it's usually not enough that people can actually notice. Back on my days on Gamespark.com, where you chatted with people while playing chess/checkers, I was generally able to "pass" as either sex equally well, just by telling them that I was male or female.
Probably true, but I would say there is far less difference between genders in formal writing than informal or fiction. I can almost always tell the gender of the writer of an episode of a show I'm watching, for onstance, just mainly because of how the men and women are characterized in the story.
So, based on my lengthy rhetoric, what gender do you see?
Quote from: suzifrommd on December 27, 2014, 09:06:00 AM
Have you tried http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php (http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php)?
I get weakly female, and weakly European, lol. Probably the European because I'm Canadian, and we spell words like the British, and not Americans.
I tended to find it was where I went, and what I was talking about. When I go to mainly female hang outs online, people of course assume I'm female. When I write on the philosophy forum, people assume that everyone is male, and the couple women that I know on there would rather not be known to be female, or they'll be treated differently.
I've been told that my writing style is very male, because of my excessive cursing I guess?
Illuminess, it's funny you should bring this up. In the few conversations we've had via PM, I always worried that my writing wasn't as feminine and expressive as yours. And many people have told me mine is feminine. One person even refused to believe I wasn't a cis girl when I told him, based solely on my writing, lol.
So... I'd tell you not to worry about it, but it's something that is very important to me, too - how I come across in my writing.
Your writing comes across as female to me, sweetie.
Quote from: Pikachu on January 03, 2015, 05:56:25 AM
Illuminess, it's funny you should bring this up. In the few conversations we've had via PM, I always worried that my writing wasn't as feminine and expressive as yours. And many people have told me mine is feminine. One person even refused to believe I wasn't a cis girl when I told him, based solely on my writing, lol.
So... I'd tell you not to worry about it, but it's something that is very important to me, too - how I come across in my writing.
Your writing comes across as female to me, sweetie.
What makes me wonder about it is how verbose I usually am. I write with proper grammar and punctuation; even in texts. That GenderGuesser thing always gives me Male, too. Honestly, I just don't see how it's possible to detect gender unless you're basing everything on modern diction including slang and exaggerated words like "soooo" or "amaaaazinngg". Younger females are often far more emotive and musical in both speech and writing. When you read the words of a woman who is writing something philosophical or informative all specific gender markers disappear.
Anyway, whether or not someone reads my words and thinks one gender or the other is
far less important than whether or not what I'm saying is taking root in their minds. How my writing is appreciated means more to me than how it's being interpreted. If I come across with a female vibe, then that's just a lovely bonus! I'll take it. :P
On that gender hacker thingy I got:
Genre: Informal Genre: Formal
Female = 1631 Female = 2496
Male = 1046 Male = 1606
Difference = -585; 39.07% Difference = -890; 39.15%
Verdict: FEMALE Verdict: FEMALE
from 1333 words from a short story about a girl.
well I don't know what think about it. maybe very accurate cause I am female or very good at guessing? because I also tested writing 1350 words a different short story about a man. So i'm guessing maybe it looks for words like marriage, handsome, man, pretty.. vs masculine type words
the second result:
Genre: Informal Genre: Formal
Female = 2035 Female = 1214
Male = 2560 Male = 1553
Difference = 525; 55.71% Difference = 339; 56.12%
Verdict: Weak MALE Verdict: Weak MALE
Weak emphasis could indicate European. Weak emphasis could indicate European.
I hope I type/chat/write like a girl~! I will ask one member of this forum whom I chatted with for close to 5 hours today, she might give a more accurate response.
I put something technical I wrote on the demarcation of science, and got: Total words: 912, Genre: Informal
Female = 675
Male = 1970
Difference = 1295; 74.48%
Verdict: MALE
Genre: Formal
Female = 981
Male = 1132
Difference = 151; 53.57%
Verdict: Weak MALE
Weak emphasis could indicate European.
Quote from: Elsa Delyth on January 03, 2015, 04:19:18 AM
Probably the European because I'm Canadian, and we spell words like the British, and not Americans.
I'm also Canadian, so funny that we both got that but also interesting it came up when we got weak male status. :-\
I don't know how this thing works, putting in excerpts from Judith Butler, and Emma Goldman and they get male. Nietzsche gets higher male than I thought too, in an excerpt from twilight of the idols. I doubt swears have much to do with it, I put in a short story I wrote that had tons of swears and still got about 50/50, slightly weak male though.
I assumed that it had a lot to do with punctuation, run-on sentences, and grammatical indicators of emotion... but I dunno. It should really explain the methodology.
cant say i have ever really been able to tell gender based on one persons writing,
then again i hope people would guess female, if they were to read anything i have written
also you can actually view the source code for the gender guesser, which basically searches for a small list of key words and assigns them a number either positive or negative(positive = male, negative = female)
Since I am not transgender I tried the gender guesser just to see what it would say. I don't really put much stock into these computer analyzing things but figured I'd see how accurate it is.
When I quote scripture it analyses male. It did say using other people's quotes would show the gender of the one whom you quote.
When I type how I normally write it analyses female.
I guess it got that wrong.
But, it was fun.
Being a man of few words, the hardest part was trying to think of something 300 words long to write about.
May all have a blessed day.
When I write short stories I write from feminine perspective. It's kind of weird having been brought up as male. Perhaps it's my female mind.
:)
If you feel like it read through my posts on my profile and tell me what you think. I don't think personality and the way someone communicates always has to do with the gender they/their brain is. I think it can, but doesn't have to.
Quote from: suzifrommd on December 27, 2014, 09:06:00 AM
Have you tried http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php (http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php)?
This is interesting, but I wonder if it isn't just random. I copied and pasted some of my longer posts into the box and it usually read that I was a "weak male" or "weak female" and I got both male and female from time to time. The device also thinks I'm European. I should type 300 words more often.
Quote from: suzifrommd on December 27, 2014, 09:06:00 AM
Have you tried http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php (http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php)?
just out of curiosity I gave it a try. They admit the reliability is weak. but I got:
Genre: Informal
Female = 911
Male = 472
Difference = -439; 34.12%
Verdict: FEMALE
I'm not sure what this genre stuff means by informal and formal. I guess I would blog male but formally write female.
Anyway, it was fun.
Genre: Informal
Female = 279
Male = 803
Difference = 524; 74.21%
Verdict: MALE
Genre: Formal
Female = 638
Male = 415
Difference = -223; 39.41%
Verdict: FEMALE
Before I got out of the closet people online never believed I was AFAB. I have no clue of what makes one male or female online.
I had female characters on wow. They still were convinced I was fooling them when I said I'm female. Well actually I was, but I was in denial.
I will try that test.
Tony
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171127/364921a32f58a3cead7706b2f95baf10.jpg)
Ok. I'm male.
I wrote about the differance between men an women. Haha
Tony
QuoteGenre: Formal
Female = 2479
Male = 3476
Difference = 997; 58.37%
Verdict: Weak MALE
Weak emphasis could indicate European.
I stuck a random school paper in. I can't stop laughing at the last line.
Doing a few more, looks like my formal writing comes in around 60% male.
Ok, so I read some of the paper that this is based on... It's sort of complete nonsense. The big determinant seems to be usage of certain pronouns and qualifiers. But... the qualifiers are usually added in to inflate word count for stuff like school papers. And in formal writing, you are supposed to explicitly avoid second person and vague pronouns. Essentially, if I wanted to get an A on an assignment, as per this paper's criteria, I wouldn't be able to write in a female style. That seems... wrong.
Edit again: I also toss some random blog posts by women, and all are coming up male. Ree Drummond comes up like 90% male. So that's funny.
They are pretty lame games. I played with it some more using pieces of stories I have written and got a different answer each time. It seems whatever they use to judge, it isn't right.
I don't put much stock in any of those tests, even though I always score female.
As far as speaking and writing style, I think of myself as a minimalist. Women in general have more involved, more detailed conversations. Could I or should I try to change that so it would help in passing. I think not. It's who I am, and besides not many like a long read. Unless it's a great book.
Hugs, Jessica
Ah, I remember the Gender Guesser. It's been up for some time and I tried it several years ago.
A sample of 300 words of relatively formal but personal writing from me gets "weak MALE", and I think that's because of the formal language; it typically includes lots of specifiers and softeners like "I", "I think", "I feel" I believe this is due to", "perhaps it is", etc. which I know this thing identifies as more "female" language.
300 words from my last essay submitted to the Open University gets "MALE" and is formal language but without the excessive personal specifiers...
And 300 words of informal babbling from me with friends on Slack gets "MALE".
This is quite interesting because I am sure in the past at one point I scored female on this thing quite consistently.
This is an amazing discovery, to know that writing with a more feminine tone can support my voice feminization training in several ways. Even though writing and speaking are different skills, the way I structure my thoughts, choose words, and express myself in writing can influence how I think and communicate verbally.
I love this thread! ❤️💕