One of the reasons I started going to TG support groups was to get an idea of what being a trans woman might look like in real life. I've been on Susan's for over a year, but as anyone who has done on-line dating has discovered, what you see in the flesh isn't always what the on line version led you to expect.
Anyway, I've seen maybe one or two dozen trans women and a half-dozen trans men (our local group is co-ed, the one in NYC is segregated.) They're mostly pretty nice people. But I've noticed that I get certain "vibes" from the trans women that are awfully reminiscent of the vibes I get from cis men, and those vibes are the reason (or maybe a large part of the reason) why I don't want anything to do with being male. The trans men I know give off vibes that are reminiscent of the vibes I get from many cis women that are the reason I feel comfortable with women and not with men. If I were going to spend an evening with either the trans women I know or the trans men I know, I'd definitely prefer the trans men.
I've spent the day trying to define those "vibes," and haven't gotten anything that really satisfies me. The words and phrases that I've come up with that dance around the feeling are: soft; gentle; kind; tender; concerned with other people's feelings; motherly. They are also the words that I would wish would describe me, though I suspect there's a lot of wishful thinking there.
Anyway, after thinking this, I started wondering: what exactly is it that I would like to become by transitioning (assuming I go for it)? If I end up being someone exuding and living with those vibes, my impulse would be to think that it wasn't worth the bother. Maybe what I need is a very different kind of "transition," not that I have any clue what that would be. Or maybe what I long for, deep inside where I can't really know exactly what it is, is something I can never get anywhere near except in daydreams.
On another board, someone asked people how they saw themselves inside. I envisioned myself as a tall, thin, somewhat awkward girl with long hair and glasses, in a loose yellow calf-length dress, who tends to stay quietly on the periphery of groups and pefers to deal with people one-on-one, likes petting kittens and holding babies, and who kind of notices and wants to notice people who need a little extra attention or support, or maybe just a little kindness. I don't know that that's who I actually am -- in real life, I think I'm more of a blundering, insensitive loudmouth -- but that's who I wish I were. (I also wish I were easier on the eyes, but that's another story.)
Quote from: Asche on January 07, 2015, 06:51:37 PM
But I've noticed that I get certain "vibes" from the trans women that are awfully reminiscent of the vibes I get from cis men, and those vibes are the reason (or maybe a large part of the reason) why I don't want anything to do with being male. The trans men I know give off vibes that are reminiscent of the vibes I get from many cis women that are the reason I feel comfortable with women and not with men.
At the risk of getting flamed, I need wholeheartedly to agree with you.
I once went to a picnic for trans people and allies. I talked to about a half dozen trans women. None of them, not one, asked me anything about myself. In each case they spent the entire conversation talking about themselves. I also talked to a handful of cis women. They were willing to talk about themselves, yes, but they also were all curious about me.
Of course no generalization fits everyone, but I've seen this an awful lot.
For my own transition, I've really tried hard to distance myself from that reality. I aspire to the sort of femininity you describe. "soft; gentle; kind; tender; concerned with other people's feelings; motherly" sums it up pretty well.
Am I there? Sometimes. When I watch myself carefully. Other times I can be selfish and monopolize the conversation, trampling other people's feelings.
But I'm trying. For me, "Woman Wannabe" that accompanies all my posts, is more than just a gender identity. It's an aspiration, a statement of values, a vision of the ideal person I'd like to be. Maybe some day.
But, Asche, none of us are the person we'd like to be all the time. That's the way we grow, right? By wanting to be a different person from the one we are. By articulating, just like you have, how we would like to be.
And there's one more, very important ingredient: Being gentle with yourself. Realizing that achieving femininity is hard, especially when you've been socialized your whole life to be male, when you've been burdened with an XY genetic configuration and the body structure and chemistry that goes with it, and when large portions of your brain are structured the way male brains are, your gender identity notwithstanding. Give yourself credit for every inch of growth, every single time you coo over a kitten or a baby, every single time you notice someone who needs extra attention, support, or kindness, every time you find yourself moving away from insensitive loudmouthdom.
True transition, from masculinity to femininity can't be achieved by hormones, SRS, electrolysis, etc. It can only be achieved one tiny step at a time.
Keep taking those steps. You'll get there.
Quote from: Asche on January 07, 2015, 06:51:37 PM
.But I've noticed that I get certain "vibes" from the trans women that are awfully reminiscent of the vibes I get from cis men, and those vibes are the reason (or maybe a large part of the reason) why I don't want anything to do with being male. The trans men I know give off vibes that are reminiscent of the vibes I get from many cis women that are the reason I feel comfortable with women and not with men.
I agree with you. May I share a story?
Pre-transition, I went to a workplace happy hour with a very good friend who also happened to be a co-worker. She got nabbed by someone who wanted to talk sports. I don't like sports so I made sure she was okay and then wandered off to find someone else to talk to. The first group I came on was a group of about four guys. They were talking about hijinks they got into as kids and childhood hobbies and mischief. I had no similar experiences. I could not understand the conversation. It really, truly might as well have been Swahili. I stood there for about ten minutes saying nothing except to shrug my shoulders and say "no idea" whenever they turned to me and said "how 'bout you?" No matter how hard I tried, I just couldn't connect to them or even speak the same language. And that hurt. Especially since they expected me to understand the rules of how their interaction worked and be able to participate.
So then I wandered off again and came upon two female co-workers. I joined them and it was great. They were talking about movies and books. We had similar tastes. I left having given a recommendation to see the movie Stardust and having been advised to read the Game of Thrones books. We spoke the same language. We had the same frame of reference. It was awesome. But I was still seen as an outsider. And that space could never be my home.
I cried over that single instance for about three days. And incidents like this are the single biggest reason I transitioned.
But when I transitioned, I discovered that the interaction with transwomen would be very much the same as that interaction with my male co-workers. They expect me to know the rules of the interaction and be able to join in and have that same frame of reference. And no matter how hard I try, I just can't. I was recruited into an eight week trans* leadership academy here in Maryland. By the second day, I was in constant tears because it hurt so bad.
And with trans men, much the same happens as with my two female co-workers. The language is similar, the frame of reference is the same, and the interests and experiences match up a lot better. But I am liking them for the thing that they seem to most want to get away from. The "girl" parts of themselves. So it doesn't work very well. And they often have an "ewwww, you're a girl" reaction to me.
It's made it very hard to really socialize with trans* people. About a year and a half ago, I had the experience of sitting and listening to a trans woman telling boob jokes and I had another one take my hand. When I pulled my hand away, she took it back again, called me "baby," told me not to pull away, and while caressing my hand, told me she loved me. Yes, using the words "I love you." After those two incidents I've pretty much given up. It's just too awkward, and I just can't understand what's going on, and so I make myself a rare attendee on the trans* social scene. And there are tons and tons of these stories.
Quote from: Asche on January 07, 2015, 06:51:37 PMIf I were going to spend an evening with either the trans women I know or the trans men I know, I'd definitely prefer the trans men.
Me too. But there's always that "ewww, you're a girl" problem and the problem of what happens when you appreciate something about a person that they don't like about themselves.
Quote from: Asche on January 07, 2015, 06:51:37 PM
I've spent the day trying to define those "vibes," and haven't gotten anything that really satisfies me. The words and phrases that I've come up with that dance around the feeling are: soft; gentle; kind; tender; concerned with other people's feelings; motherly. They are also the words that I would wish would describe me, though I suspect there's a lot of wishful thinking there.
I've spent a lot of time trying to define it too. So far the best I can say is that it's about taking up space. If you're socialized male (like most, but not all, trans women) then you're taught to take up all the space, both physically and metaphorically. So you charge in, crowd out others, don't consider them at all. Women are taught to be interested in and nuturing toward others. If you are raised as a girl, then usually you are taught to make room for others. When you transition, old habits die hard.
I suspect the wishing is pretty common. I see two ways of dealing with it. One is to do as Suzi suggests:
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 07, 2015, 08:05:25 PM
For my own transition, I've really tried hard to distance myself from that reality. I aspire to the sort of femininity you describe. "soft; gentle; kind; tender; concerned with other people's feelings; motherly" sums it up pretty well.
Am I there? Sometimes. When I watch myself carefully. Other times I can be selfish and monopolize the conversation, trampling other people's feelings.
But I'm trying. For me, "Woman Wannabe" that accompanies all my posts, is more than just a gender identity. It's an aspiration, a statement of values, a vision of the ideal person I'd like to be. Maybe some day.
I needed authenticity. For me, that meant never again having to think about my manner, my speech patterns, etc.
So I took a different path. I decided that I would study absolutely nothing about movement, speech patterns, optics, etc. I decided to accept no advice--none, not one iota--related to transition from a trans woman. I just decided that for better or worse, I would be who and what I am. I did not know whether that would give me a girl vibe or a guy vibe that I'd give off or what it would mean for me. But it's worked out well. For the first time in my life, I can relax and just be. And whatever you may feel about me, I am very real. And if I feel like cooing at a baby, I will. And if I'm feeling grumpy that day, I won't.
But I will say one thing about those who give off a "cis male vibe," or who are otherwise highly nonconforming. A nonconforming person has to have a lot of courage. Because it is they who take the brunt of all the bad stuff that happens to trans* people. So I think they are deserving of respect. And just because a person may give off a vibe that you or I might not want is no reason for their identities to be deemed any less worthy of respect. I'm not saying you are doing so. I just feel like in a thread like this, someone needs to stand up for respecting all the most nonconforming among us.
But the best possible advice is probably this:
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 07, 2015, 08:05:25 PM
And there's one more, very important ingredient: Being gentle with yourself.
Don't judge yourself too harshly. You're out there doing the best you can to be the best you can. Just like everyone else.
True true :). I have seen this and experienced, but I have to admit that there are people who are good natural listeners and then there are those who aren't (but women in general tend to be better listeners than guys). We do not have any local TS/TG support groups or community as such, but there have been a couple of TG-themed events which attract certain crowd. So I had the honour to meet in person some local "celebrities" and just like Asche said, the impression in RL was quite different. A couple of examples which I remember was when one elderly transwoman pretty much trampled into our quiet conversation with guest speaker (a transman from Belgium, well known European TG expert - and I have to say, I had met him in private before, he was the first transman I had ever met and we had wonderful three hours of on-going mutually respectful conversation). So that transwoman got into our talk, moved very closely into my private space and started to ask quite private and insensitive questions. I dont really get intimiated much, especially by lady-folk, but somehow it really felt very pushy and discomforting. I was trying to reason myself internally that she is probably the oldest MtF in the country, has been discriminated and harrassed a lot, besides I should respect her only because of her age and life experience, but could not. She was loud, rude and annoying and I just wanted to be somewhere else.
Still, I have to agree with suzi, that watching yourself can be helpful at times. Some things are eased up by HRT itself, but some social conditioning needs to be un-conditioned :). I have learned a lot by watching other women interact with each other and guys, reading about differences in social skills between genders and trying out what works and what does not for me. Have to admit, I used to be a person who would interrupt conversation to make the point heard - I dont do that anymore, or if I must, I do it differently. Listening to what other people say is very fun experience too (unless You have to multitask X other tasks at the same time - then it can create awkward situations) - people in general like to talk about themselves (both women and men, actually), so simply listening to them, picking up clues can give You extra threads for further questions so You keep asking and they keep talking and imparting useful information ;).
Finally, as far as typical "male" and "female" modus operandi during conversation, I found that - at least for someone who was born and socialised for several decades in another role - it is harder to make total switch, but maybe some adjustments could be made (especially from non-binary point of view). For non-binary MtF (or MtA) presenting as female or female leaning andro I would call it the "approach of needlepoint pillow". Being nice, gentle, soft and attentive on the surface, but if someone gets too close that it becomes uncomfortable or tries to squeeze or push You around, then that person is going to feel needles :D.
If we're being honest, I think this is possibly a matter of what people's work/social lives are like, and the socialization they're subjected to in that work/social life.
And, well, look at who attends support groups and the like.
I've found that the longer people are full-time, and the longer they are around their identity gender, seen as a member of their identity gender, and thus subjected to all of the social expectations that come with it, the more they become like that identity gender. I think passing plays a part too.
Trans support groups are very often populated by people who are early in transition, and thus haven't really had a chance to be exposed to the social expectations of their identity gender, and thus haven't picked up the mannerisms and the social "rules" yet, so they're still acting on the instinctual learned behaviors of their birth sex. Trans spaces are also very often populated by people who spend significant amount of times in these trans-specific spaces, and thus don't really have a chance to get out into the wide world and just be treated as a normal member of their birth sex.
I also suspect that passing plays a part in it, because someone who's seen as trans rather than cis will probably not be subjected to the same expectations about parenting, sports, heteronormative assumptions about romance and life aspirations, and other things.
I very often noticed when I first started my new job (which was my first ever post-transition job,) that I was VERY defensive behaviorally. I was standoffish, I stood in a very defensive "don't intrude on my space" manner, and it was this rigidity and the social closed-offness that I believe made me come across as more "male." I noticed how open the women were... how much they were unafraid of bearing their emotions, how much they were unafraid of physical contact and gentle touches and welcoming hand gestures, and how relaxed and at ease they seemed to be, where the guys were all in this defensive "alpha male" stance which gave off an "I own this space" kind of vibe. And I was definitely acting more like the guys.
After months and months and months of being around the other women at work, though, and being subjected to all of the expectations that come with it, I really noticed that I was starting to pick up on the feminine mannerisms. And slowly, as time has gone on, people have been more open with me in turn. I've been called "sweetheart" more often, people smile at me like they smile at women more, and other things. And I still screw up a lot. I still don't like that I tend to write on and on and on with this automatic "I deserve to be heard" attitude while those born female are a bit more "this is just my personal opinion," and their writing is more simple rather than descriptive. But really, I think as long as you realize what you're doing, and when you're subjected to a certain socialization over and over again, and when you make a conscious effort to change something when you notice it's a bit too much like your birth sex, eventually it starts to sink in, and becomes second nature over time.
And it's not necessarily a trans thing, or anything to do with how you're innately wired. It's just ingrained behaviors based on socialization coupled with how you internalize that socialization due to how you see yourself.
Also, and I know this might be hard to accept, but:
No matter how much we wish we could be cis, we never will be. No matter how much we wish we could have been raised as our identity gender, no matter how much we wish we could have been subjected to that gender's socialization since birth and thus have perfectly-gender-conforming behavior come naturally, and as much as we wish our bodies could be completely indistinguishable from someone of that identity gender, it never will. We can come close. We can approximate it. Through effort and training and being seen as that sex for long enough, we learn, and a lot of us can take that far enough that any layperson would never know that we weren't cis. But in the end, we're still trans.
And a big part of reaching a point of personal peace is just accepting that. The part of you that might criticize trans women for not being "female enough," or trans men for not being "male enough" in terms of their natural behavior, that's just societal cissexism talking... the cultural notion that unless one conforms to a standard of cis-normality, they are somehow lesser.
Don't let it get to you. Even if our behavior doesn't conform, even if there always will be differences that we can't overwrite, we still have a right to be who we are, and be accepted for that. Don't ever doubt it. :)
Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 09, 2015, 04:31:11 AM
I also suspect that passing plays a part in it, because someone who's seen as trans rather than cis will probably not be subjected to the same expectations about parenting, sports, heteronormative assumptions about romance and life aspirations, and other things.
Really interesting observation. I hadn't thought about that, but it really makes sense.
While we identify as being a particular gender most of us were not raised or socialised within that gender context. It can be hard to acquire certain gendered traits coming to them later in life, largely because they are probably invisible to us unless they're pointed out. Depending on how one socialises during transition these traits can still be absorbed to varying degrees.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 09, 2015, 04:31:11 AM
If we're being honest, I think this is possibly a matter of what people's work/social lives are like, and the socialization they're subjected to in that work/social life.
And, well, look at who attends support groups and the like.
I've found that the longer people are full-time, and the longer they are around their identity gender, seen as a member of their identity gender, and thus subjected to all of the social expectations that come with it, the more they become like that identity gender. I think passing plays a part too.
I think the passing thing plays a role, but honestly I see it as a bit of a chicken & egg problem. Behavioral cues are a big part of passing. So does a person pick up on behavior because they pass (and are subject to expectations matching the role) or does one pass because they picked up on how to behave? I'm not sure.
But I have not observed this phenomenon to be related to how long ago a person transitioned. I see an awful lot of trans women who transitioned 10 or 20 years ago who still have a super strong male vibe.
I think this is where that article by psychologist Anne Vitale that I posted in some other thread (I'll find it again if anyone is interested) comes in. She posits that there are two broad, general categories of trans women. There is group one (G1) consisting of people whose brains had minimal or no masculinization, leaving the default female identity intact. There is group three (G3) consisting of people whose brains were partly masculinized, leaving a female gender identity that has been damaged, so to speak. She points out that the folks in G1 tend to transition quickly and easily because they are able to just click right into place. Folks in G3, on the other hand, tend to have a much harder time because their brains (and therefore their identities) tend to have certain strong masculine elements that did develop. It bears noting that she is proposing a hypothesis, not describing well grounded research, but it sounds a lot like what we're talking about here . . . .
So I suppose the obvious question is what can (or should) a person do about it? Especially if they happen to be in G3?
Well . . . I am never a big fan of "should" in discussions about transition. I don't think there's any requirement to do anything in particular. So if a person has a strong masculine component or vibe, then I don't think there's any requirement to do anything in particular. So walk with head held high. I just wish people who have that strong vibe would be a little more honest about it.
But in the real world we all live in, those mismatched vibes can have very negative consequences, so it may be desirable to do something to change them. If I a person wishes to do so, I'm not sure I know a great option. The usual advice seems to be to practice imitating women. And there seems to be a list of behaviors, most of them horribly stereotyped. For example, I read something somewhere about someone saying to be sure to coo at babies. There are quite a lot of women who don't.
I am not a fan of listing out behaviors to imitate for two reasons: (1) it has always seemed to me that doing this leads to doing an imitation and putting on an act rather than leading an authentic life and (2) most people raised male tend to have very odd ideas about women, so the result is lots of strange stereotypes that don't seem to match up very well with real life. Since the stereotypes don't match real life, it doesn't seem to help very much.
Unfortunately, I don't have any good solutions for this one. My best advice is something that has not been received well: befriend and hang out with cis women. It's not about who is "more" or "less" of a woman. It's about exactly what Carrie Liz is pointing out:
Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 09, 2015, 04:31:11 AM
After months and months and months of being around the other women at work, though, and being subjected to all of the expectations that come with it, I really noticed that I was starting to pick up on the feminine mannerisms. And slowly, as time has gone on, people have been more open with me in turn. I've been called "sweetheart" more often, people smile at me like they smile at women more, and other things. And I still screw up a lot. I still don't like that I tend to write on and on and on with this automatic "I deserve to be heard" attitude while those born female are a bit more "this is just my personal opinion," and their writing is more simple rather than descriptive. But really, I think as long as you realize what you're doing, and when you're subjected to a certain socialization over and over again, and when you make a conscious effort to change something when you notice it's a bit too much like your birth sex, eventually it starts to sink in, and becomes second nature over time.
In other words, hopefully things rub off on a person who spends time among women in the way the person hopes they will.
Unfortunately, when I have given this advice to people in the past, there have been some strange reactions. For example, I've been asked "Oh my gosh, but what if I'm attracted to them??" And I've noticed that there seems to be a very strange aversion to learning about women from cis women. I'm not quite sure why that would be and I will refrain from voicing a guess.
And as already pointed out, there are a lot of folks who transitioned long ago who still have that vibe. So the "rubbing off" is far from certain.
Alas, it would be a lot easier to change something that was concrete and more readily defined. It's hard to change something as vague as a "vibe."
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 09, 2015, 10:11:14 PM
But I have not observed this phenomenon to be related to how long ago a person transitioned. I see an awful lot of trans women who transitioned 10 or 20 years ago who still have a super strong male vibe.
I think this is where that article by psychologist Anne Vitale that I posted in some other thread (I'll find it again if anyone is interested) comes in. She posits that there are two broad, general categories of trans women. There is group one (G1) consisting of people whose brains had minimal or no masculinization, leaving the default female identity intact. There is group three (G3) consisting of people whose brains were partly masculinized, leaving a female gender identity that has been damaged, so to speak. She points out that the folks in G1 tend to transition quickly and easily because they are able to just click right into place. Folks in G3, on the other hand, tend to have a much harder time because their brains (and therefore their identities) tend to have certain strong masculine elements that did develop. It bears noting that she is proposing a hypothesis, not describing well grounded research, but it sounds a lot like what we're talking about here . . . .
So I suppose the obvious question is what can (or should) a person do about it? Especially if they happen to be in G3?
...
Unfortunately, when I have given this advice to people in the past, there have been some strange reactions. For example, I've been asked "Oh my gosh, but what if I'm attracted to them??" And I've noticed that there seems to be a very strange aversion to learning about women from cis women. I'm not quite sure why that would be and I will refrain from voicing a guess.
And as already pointed out, there are a lot of folks who transitioned long ago who still have that vibe. So the "rubbing off" is far from certain.
Alas, it would be a lot easier to change something that was concrete and more readily defined. It's hard to change something as vague as a "vibe."
To be honest, I really don't know whether the "vibe" is ingrained or not. It's once again kind of a chicken-and-egg thing, where because people look a certain way people treat them a certain way which reinforces certain behaviors which makes the "vibe" even stronger. So I don't know. Maybe it's one of those cases where it's a little bit of both? Part socialization and part genetics?
I believe I read a study which showed that IQ has a 40% heritability rate in childhood, but an 80% heritability rate by the time those same children reached adulthood. So that definitely reinforces that there's a genetic component to it, but also clearly shows the role that socialization plays... children born to intelligent parents become more intelligent regardless of their birth IQ the more time they spend around them, and vice versa. Perhaps gender traits are the same way. That yes, part of it is just a matter of genetics and hormone exposure and "partial masculinization" of the brain as you spoke of, but I definitely think socialization plays a big part in it too.
Also, pfft... seriously? There are seriously trans women who are afraid of being in groups of cis women? And think that they shouldn't learn feminine behaviors from them? How the hell do you think cis-women learned their femininity in the first place? That's like the #1 trying time in every girl's life is in the "judgment" phase of middle and high school where you have to either learn to act like a girl or have the "gender police" all over you trying to shame you for not being "girl enough." You don't want to know how many girls I saw in middle school who used to be completely tomboyish and gender-nonconforming as kids all of a sudden instantly turn into girly-girls because that's what the gender police demanded that they do. Same with me. This is why I had such a hard time transitioning from childhood to teenage years, because suddenly my gender-nonconformity wasn't socially acceptable anymore, guys had to be tough and masculine or else, so I got teased MUCH more, and started experiencing social dysphoria for the first time.
Part of this is just the feminist in me talking, after having read books like "The Curse of the Good Girl" which specifically talks about how cultural femininity expectations robs girls of their ability to stand up for themselves and learn that there's more important things in life than being liked by other people. (Because basically that is what society constantly teaches young girls, is that the most important thing they can do is be seen as likeable and "nice" and a "good girl.") So I'm constantly looking for those differential social treatments, and I personally think that those different expectations have a huge effect, since so much of brain development is based on which things we reinforce, but I don't know.
Maybe I'm also not the best person to comment on this because people constantly thought that I was gay pre-transition anyway, so even though I felt like I was acting more "masculine" right after going full-time, maybe I wasn't. I don't know. That's one of the other frustrating things is that there's basically no way for me to know if I give that "vibe" off myself or not, and whether it's changed or not. So yeah, maybe I shouldn't use my own view of myself as a study example, since I don't know if anything's actually changed.
And honestly, I guess I don't have data to back it up. The change in behavior I notice most often with trans women's behavior isn't so much a change from "masculine vibe" to "feminine vibe" so much as it's a change from "so nervous and scared to death that she can barely even talk" to "relaxed, calm, and comfortable with who she is."
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 09, 2015, 10:11:14 PM
I think this is where that article by psychologist Anne Vitale that I posted in some other thread (I'll find it again if anyone is interested) comes in. She posits that there are two broad, general categories of trans women. There is group one (G1) consisting of people whose brains had minimal or no masculinization, leaving the default female identity intact. There is group three (G3) consisting of people whose brains were partly masculinized, leaving a female gender identity that has been damaged, so to speak. She points out that the folks in G1 tend to transition quickly and easily because they are able to just click right into place. Folks in G3, on the other hand, tend to have a much harder time because their brains (and therefore their identities) tend to have certain strong masculine elements that did develop. It bears noting that she is proposing a hypothesis, not describing well grounded research, but it sounds a lot like what we're talking about here . . . .
Just a small courtesy :)
http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm (http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm)
A great article, btw - it made the difference for me 2 years ago. I do wonder if some parallels can or should be drawn between this theory and that of Blanchard's (dont hate me, but they both do have some points despite latter having been so heavily criticised - just my opinion and I dont want to start a flame war on that).
And everyone - this is awesome discussion (one of the best one on Susan's recently) - this has been a true intellectual pleasure to reading Your insights and ideas about this quite controversional topic. And have even managed to stay civil and polite on that :). Awesome!
Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 10, 2015, 01:32:53 AM
Also, pfft... seriously? There are seriously trans women who are afraid of being in groups of cis women? And think that they shouldn't learn feminine behaviors from them?
I said they had an aversion, i.e. they are unwilling. I never said it was because of fear. I actually don't think it is.
I suppose it makes some sense in that cis women never had to transition. But the fact they never had to transition is also part of what makes them so helpful and useful. They have a lot more practice. :)
And it's also a reality that most men (and therefore most trans women because they are usually mistaken for men before transition) seem to not know much about women. A lot of strange ideas are prevalent.
So I see a large gulf between trans women and cis women. It might just be the group of people I encounter, but it seems that most trans women learn from other trans women, drag queens, or cross dressers. Very few actually spend much time around cis women or learn from them.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on January 10, 2015, 02:23:37 AM
Just a small courtesy :)
http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm (http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm)
A great article, btw - it made the difference for me 2 years ago.
That's the right article! Thank you! It's a more recent discovery for me, but it also was truly a lightbulb moment for me too.
QuoteI do wonder if some parallels can or should be drawn between this theory and that of Blanchard's (dont hate me, but they both do have some points despite latter having been so heavily criticised - just my opinion and I dont want to start a flame war on that).
I'm afraid I must be missing something because I don't see a connection between this and Blanchard.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 07, 2015, 10:34:37 PM
Pre-transition, I went to a workplace happy hour ...
So then I wandered off again and came upon two female co-workers. I joined them and it was great. They were talking about movies and books. We had similar tastes. I left having given a recommendation to see the movie Stardust and having been advised to read the Game of Thrones books. We spoke the same language. We had the same frame of reference. It was awesome. But I was still seen as an outsider. And that space could never be my home.
I cried over that single instance for about three days. And incidents like this are the single biggest reason I transitioned.
I feel the same way.
Since I feel more at home with women, if transition brought me nothing more than to be accepted by women and not seen as an outsider and someone to be wary of, it would be worth it. I talk with women and sometimes even can get together with them, but I always have the feeling that my being male sets up a barrier between us. There are different expectations and the same behaviors get interpreted differently depending upon whether you are (seen as) male or female.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 07, 2015, 10:34:37 PM
I've spent a lot of time trying to define it too. So far the best I can say is that it's about taking up space. If you're socialized male (like most, but not all, trans women) then you're taught to take up all the space, both physically and metaphorically. So you charge in, crowd out others, don't consider them at all.
:) And taking up space is all about saving room for cats! (http://savingroomforcats.tumblr.com/) :)
But seriously, I've noticed that on those occasions when I actually get a seat on the subway, I keep my legs together and my stuff on my lap and generally try to take up as little space as possible. I've always thought it was simply common decency, but maybe it's more?
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 07, 2015, 10:34:37 PM
I decided to accept no advice--none, not one iota--related to transition from a trans woman. I just decided that for better or worse, I would be who and what I am.
I guess I
have tried to be different. Mostly because at work my bosses kept telling me I coming off as nasty or something and antagonizing people (mostly, maybe always in E-mail.) I've been working on it for at least 15 years. Regardless of whether I transition, I want to be seen as kind and considerate, etc. It's not so much "how can I pass as a woman" as "how can I acquire this thing that seems to be mostly something that women have."
BTW, it's not about mannerisms for me. It's about what kind of person people see when they see me.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 10, 2015, 07:15:50 AM
And it's also a reality that most men (and therefore most trans women because they are usually mistaken for men before transition) seem to not know much about women. A lot of strange ideas are prevalent.
Ugh, yes! I stopped visiting a certain cross-dressing forum (which shall remain nameless) because the guys[ * ] there seemed to have learned all they knew about women and being a woman from other equally clueless guys, and on the few occasions when the cis women (called "Genetic Girls") tried to correct their ideas about women and being a woman, they were contradicted and dismissed. The sexism was so thick it was hard to breathe. There was an F2M section, but F2Ms soon learned that there was no room for them there, either.
[ * ] -- I say "guys" because (a) they acted like typical guys and (b) they were insistent that they were 110% male when they weren't living out their "female side."
BTW, I've noticed that when men get together in all-male (or male-dominated) groups, there's some sort of feedback that accentuates certain "masculine" characteristics, especially the ones that alienate me. That's why I finally gave up on men's groups. I wonder if something like that happens in trans women groups.
I'd like to add another possibility here. Since I'm really interested in exactly what causes people to pick up these "vibes" from people, here's something else that might be involved in it.
The following is a video of a football game, where you can hear a woman screaming, and then yelling obscenities because her team gives up a 50+ yard touchdown pass.
Now imagine that those EXACT same words are being screamed, except by someone with a male voice.
Catch the bias there? When a woman does it, it seems more "cute" and "harmless." But when you imagine a male voice doing the EXACT same thing, saying the EXACT same words, the reaction might be an eye roll where you think "typical guy, getting too invested in sports and being all mannish."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOeL1D8vMiI
So I do suspect that a lot of this has nothing at all to do with whether someone is actually behaving the same as a woman would behave or not, it's just a matter of gender confirmation bias, where a cis-woman saying the EXACT same things that a trans woman might say is automatically deemed to be less threatening and more calm just because she's more feminine in appearance and voice... smaller frame, shorter limbs, more rounded face, higher vocal resonance where her voice is clearly unchanged, etc. Someone who looks and sounds completely female would not have her femininity belittled for saying these things and acting this way, where it's very easy to look at a trans woman and say that it's her old "male side" still back there which hasn't gone away yet, and judge her behaviors as "mannish."
So yeah...
Just something else to consider. Some of the self-hate over acting "mannish" and not acting more like cis-women act might not even be true, it might just be cis-sexism talking where certain body features that are none of our fault are triggering our automatic responses to judge those who are shorter, with smaller builds, and higher voices as more "feminine" and non-threatening, and to judge those who are taller, with larger builds, and deeper voices as more "masculine" and threatening and dominating.
I don't have a great deal of expierence with support groups or even that many other transpeople but, I have to wonder if ITT there have been some rather unreasonable judgements. With being kind for example thrown out a femme trait, which makes me very confused I have met plenty of women who were unkind and plenty of men who were kind, so this tells me it has more to do with the perceptions of people ITT than gender. I am not a terribly kind person, I am selfish, manipulative, and egocentric and I don't think that makes me any less of a woman, even if that means I am not living up to some stereotype....I very much hate the idea that a sterotype would be used to judge or define me, and it is this that pushes me more and more away from the LGBT community, there is so much judgement from within it.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 10, 2015, 02:18:29 PM
I'd like to add another possibility here. Since I'm really interested in exactly what causes people to pick up these "vibes" from people, here's something else that might be involved in it.
Me too. I've been trying to figure it out for years now.
Quote
So I do suspect that a lot of this has nothing at all to do with whether someone is actually behaving the same as a woman would behave or not, it's just a matter of gender confirmation bias, where a cis-woman saying the EXACT same things that a trans woman might say is automatically deemed to be less threatening and more calm just because she's more feminine in appearance and voice... smaller frame, shorter limbs, more rounded face, higher vocal resonance where her voice is clearly unchanged, etc. Someone who looks and sounds completely female would not have her femininity belittled for saying these things and acting this way, where it's very easy to look at a trans woman and say that it's her old "male side" still back there which hasn't gone away yet, and judge her behaviors as "mannish."
I suspect you're right about confirmation bias. But I also suspect it goes both ways. Yes, the fact that people see a person with a deeper voice and larger stature and longer limbs doing something may nudge the observer to gender the behavior in a masculine way. But it is also true that a person who badly wants to see something in themselves may miss the contradictory evidence, which may lead a person to see themselves as expressing femininity when they are actually sending off the OP's "masculine vibe."
So let me get specific about the kind of thing I'm talking about. Here are three specific examples of what I mean:
EXAMPLE #1:
I was sitting at the Green Turtle. Three people present. Me, a ciswoman, and a trans woman who has been full time for at least 4-5 years.
Waitress: So can I take your order?
Trans woman: Well, I'm a double D but I'll have the triple-D burger.
[later]
Me: oh, I really do need to lose some weight. I feel big. But it's hard when you're life is like mine.
Trans Woman: Oh. No don't lose weight 'cause your boobs'll shrink!
EXAMPLE #2:
At the annual Trans*Unity Picnic. I'm the head of Trans*Unity, so it's my group's event and I was doing my thing of circulating to say hello to everyone, make sure everyone was having a good time, etc.
Me: (walks outside and sits down at a picnic table with a group of about five people)
Trans woman: (takes my hand in both of hers) Oh hello, baby.
Me: (takes hand back)
Trans woman: (takes my hand again and starts to stroke it) Oh no, don't pull away. I love you, honey. No, no, don't pull away.
Me: (takes hand back again, gets up and walks away)
I later sent her an email from a good distance away telling her that this and the whole series of interactions between us were making me and others think she was hitting on me, that I was not interested, and it was starting to get the point where I was actually starting to feel scared because of it.
EXAMPLE #3:
I was at a trans group meeting just a couple of months ago. I, trans woman #1, and trans woman #2 arrive at the door at the same time.
Trans woman #1: (opens the door, motions me and trans woman #2 to go through) After you, ladies.
Trans woman #2: (motioning to me to go through) After you.
Me: (walks in the door, through the hall, and up the stairs to where the group is meeting. All the sofas and chairs were taken, so I looked around for a folding chair).
Trans woman #3: (jumps up out of her seat, goes over to where the chairs are stacked, takes one down, sets it up) There you are!
Me: thank you.
[The meeting happens. I sit there until the end.]
Me: (stands up, folds the chair, picks it up and starts to take it back to the stack it came from)
Trans woman #4: (stands up, comes over to me, takes the chair away from me and puts it back on the stack)
Now, any of these examples could have involved a cis woman as the other person. But it would have been pretty unusual and seemed very strange. Especially example #4, which involves four different people in the space of two hours. Women just don't usually behave that way toward one another. Not that it never happens, but it's odd.
On the other hand, this type of behavior is very, very, very common by men toward women.
And most of the trans women involved in these stories were transitioned for at least several years.
So I guess I could read it as a group of very strangely behaved women whose actions left me confused and bewildered. Or I could say the behavior in these situations gave off a very male vibe. Either statement would be true. It's the gender based expectations that make it so strange.
Quote from: Hikari on January 10, 2015, 02:18:29 PM
I don't have a great deal of expierence with support groups or even that many other transpeople but, I have to wonder if ITT there have been some rather unreasonable judgements. With being kind for example thrown out a femme trait, which makes me very confused I have met plenty of women who were unkind and plenty of men who were kind, so this tells me it has more to do with the perceptions of people ITT than gender. I am not a terribly kind person, I am selfish, manipulative, and egocentric and I don't think that makes me any less of a woman, even if that means I am not living up to some stereotype....I very much hate the idea that a sterotype would be used to judge or define me, and it is this that pushes me more and more away from the LGBT community, there is so much judgement from within it.
I don't know what ITT is. But I do agree with you about the idea of kindness being a feminine trait. It's an example of what I mean about people not knowing much about women . . . Women can be extremely vicious.
But as for judgment, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with having the "male vibe." In fact, I hope I'm saying that absolutely nothing is wrong about it. But I do wish people would just be honest and admit that very often something is there.
Heavens, even in me. Talking about me being male socialized is usually a good way to get groups of people laughing. But apply some pressure to me and watch how I break bad . . . You will see some guy type traits emerge. Loudly and with much profanity.
ITT means "In This Thread".
Okay, I understand what you're talking about now... the "trying way too hard to call attention to their femaleness" type.
I feel bad judging them as that, though... like, for the most part these people seem to be consistently among the happiest trans women I know, because they enjoy celebrating their newfound womanhood so much. My old roommate was exactly like that, basically at EVERY single support group meeting telling a story about her gender being confirmed in some way ending with "...because I'm a woman!" And she constantly tells off-color jokes about female body parts, menopause, etc. And again, I tend to just roll my eyes at her because I'm very much of the "you do know that women completely take their femaleness for granted, right? They're not constantly thinking about the fact that they're women" persuasion, but again, I feel awful for judging her, because she's happy. She LOVES telling those jokes. She LOVES wearing dresses EVERYWHERE whether the situation calls for it or not. She loves going to drag shows and having the queens pick dollar bills out of her garter. All of those things confirm her own femininity to her, and make her smile, so again, I feel bad for judging her for it, even though the behavior is indeed VERY atypical and jarring to be coming from an adult woman.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 10, 2015, 04:31:36 PM
But I do agree with you about the idea of kindness being a feminine trait. It's an example of what I mean about people not knowing much about women . . . Women can be extremely vicious.
You're right ThePhoenix, it would be wrong to say that women are kinder than men. There are men with hearts of gold and some really small, petty women.
But there's SOMETHING there. It seems to me that in general, women are constituted in such a way that makes it easier to be empathetic. Men can be empathetic too, but it seems harder for them - that by their nature not as many automatically tune in to other people's feelings.
It's just how it seems to me after half a lifetime of observing men and women, but you may be right. This may be a sign that I don't know much about women, but that's the way I'm seeing it.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 10, 2015, 07:15:50 AM
I'm afraid I must be missing something because I don't see a connection between this and Blanchard.
Maybe You are right and there is no connection. It was just my personal observation that as concerns MtF transsexuals, there are at least two (maybe more) groups which are very distinct from each other. Blanchard tried to separate them apart by age of transitioners and their sexual orientation, Vitale uses the criteria of supposed differences in degree of brain masculinisation and age (again) - G1 tends to transition at younger age as well as to blend in perfectly (in fact where they do have trouble is trying to present as men), whereas G3 are "late bloomers' for various reasons (blending into male world better than G1, not being able to figure themselves out as early as G1 and countless other). In some way, Dr Vitale's theory is much better phrased unlike Blanchard's (my opinion again - but he did have some serious points) - my impression was that he was hated because of ->-bleeped-<- reference much more than for referring to sexual orientation as the main criterion.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 11, 2015, 12:00:25 AM
Okay, I understand what you're talking about now... the "trying way too hard to call attention to their femaleness" type.
Well, I'm not quite sure they are trying to call attention to their femaleness. Maybe example #1 is sort of like that? Example #2, on the other hand, was reaching the point that her behavior was sexual harrassment. Example #3 is hard for me to describe without using words like gentlemanly or chivalrous.
QuoteI feel bad judging them as that, though... like, for the most part these people seem to be consistently among the happiest trans women I know, because they enjoy celebrating their newfound womanhood so much.
I still don't feel like noticing this is judgmental. To me, this is no different from noticing that a person is tall or has red hair. People may wish their traits were different. Everyone does, I suppose. Like me being 5'9, but I'd love to be about 5'6".
I'm not sure why people respond to the idea of having gender incongruous traits as if it's a bad thing. When I look at trans* people, I'm not interested in hearing about hormones or surgery or clothes. I've been hearing those stories for around 15 years or so. So when someone is newly postop or just started HRT or whatever else, I'm happy for them, but I'm afraid that my attention tends to drift off and I tend to tune out those threads/discussions/conversations until the topic changes to something else.
But if the topic is how trans* identities and expression affect lives in the workplaces the family, or society, then I'm intrigued. It provides me a window on things I don't experience. It provides me with perspective on things I do experience. It gives me a good stock of stories to use the next time I give a talk on trans* issues. And it's where the diversity of this community really shows. That diversity is what I think is so fascinating.
So I recognize that people may wish they had fewer of those traits. But I think those traits are morally neutral. It's no different from wishing to have a different color of hair or be taller/shorter.
But I do wish that I were different in respect to the pain it causes me to be put in that situation I posted about earlier. The one where all the pain of being expected to be "one of the guys" comes flooding back. Socializing with men is a lot easier now that I'm not expected to be one of the them. I wish it didn't hurt the way it does.
And it would be nice idea trans women could drop the expectation that I be able to socialize with them like they did back when they were living as guys. It would be nice if they didn't accuse me of folding under societal pressure to conform to gender norms when they figure out that I can't.
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 11, 2015, 04:47:39 AM
You're right ThePhoenix, it would be wrong to say that women are kinder than men. There are men with hearts of gold and some really small, petty women.
But there's SOMETHING there. It seems to me that in general, women are constituted in such a way that makes it easier to be empathetic. Men can be empathetic too, but it seems harder for them - that by their nature not as many automatically tune in to other people's feelings.
Men are taught to close themselves off to emotion and to react to a person's problems by solving them. from early childhood, the notion of being a "tough boy" is praised and being sensitive is discouraged. One result of that is that men are much more direct.
Women are taught to feel emotion and to react to a person's problems with empathy. From earliest childhood, the notion of being a "sweet girl" is praised and toughness is seen as being a bitch. One result of that is that women can be much more subtle.
Turning a table full of people against a person without ever saying a negative word about them is a typical woman thing. Charging in and clobbering them directly is a typical male thing.
Not to say that women don't ever charge in and men don't ever turn people against a person. But I hope my point is made.
And of course there's the difference between how men are to other men and how they are to women or how women are to other women versus how they are to men.
I'm trying to not write a long post about this here . . . but I'm sure you'll find out what I'm talking about. :)
Thank you for an amazing conversation. :) I am a woman, that I am trans isn't usually relevant. Still I tend to spend time in the non binary area because I recognize that for nearly all of my life I lived as a queer man, one who did not fit in with straight or gay men well, one who preferred being and socializing with women, and one who was horribly conflicted.
So do I commit male faux pas and step forward assertively? Sometimes I do, but I spend most of my time with cis women who liked me before transition and like me still. I just spent a week with trans folk and felt both accepted and embraced. I must live an authentic life - else I will die.
For me that means embracing life as a woman but acknowledging that I'm damaged goods. It has been said here, that we will never be cis. That is true, but at my stage of life that is not a tragedy either. No I won't patronize you, nor will I hit on you or touch you without an invitation. But I will listen. I always have. If you are a child, I will play with you. If you are hurt, I will bind your wounds. Are these the essence of the feminine experience? Perhaps, but I think they are more the purview of the human condition - or at least ought to be.
I will never be entirely comfortable around dominant men cis or trans, but I'll let them open the door for me. Cis men finish my thoughts, or discount my observations more often than I am comfortable with. Trans women sometimes do also, as do some trans men. I am ever so careful not to, but the impulse is sometimes still there. Ever notice how men will invent causation when they don't know how something works? That is a hard habit to break, but it is a habit and can be broken.
I have so much to learn on my journey to me that I ought not throw stones, but I do insist on respect, and I do demand of my self to be respectful. It comes down to am I teachable? Do I have at least a passing flirtation with humility? Am I willing to love without expectation? I think that is my goal of transition - the morphological acceptance and genetilia corrections aside, my transition will be complete when I understand and live the prayer of St Francis.
Peace,
Julie
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2015, 10:55:47 AM
But I do wish that I were different in respect to the pain it causes me to be put in that situation I posted about earlier. The one where all the pain of being expected to be "one of the guys" comes flooding back. Socializing with men is a lot easier now that I'm not expected to be one of the them. I wish it didn't hurt the way it does.
And it would be nice idea trans women could drop the expectation that I be able to socialize with them like they did back when they were living as guys. It would be nice if they didn't accuse me of folding under societal pressure to conform to gender norms when they figure out that I can't.
Yeah... definitely understandable. And yes, I definitely do feel the same way when the same friend that I mentioned, despite constantly talking about how much of a woman she is, goes on long blathering talks about how to tell which train is owned by one company or another, the schedules, etc, every single time we pass a railroad. She CONSTANTLY talks about military weapons and vehicles while focusing on absolutely nothing but the technical details, and yeah, I'll admit, it just makes me roll my eyes and think to myself "God, Dale, why does ANY of this technical detail matter? Why do you think it's interesting?" So yeah, again, I guess I deal with it too, the vibe that I pick up from those long technical rants is very "masculine," and it makes me uncomfortable exactly because it reminds me of being "one of the guys" in high school. And I constantly see cis-guys at work talking like this too, where every single time they talk about football, it's not about rooting for a team anymore even, or just jokingly trash-talking each-other like my female sports-fan friends do. It's always about the over/under, the odds, which players they think are going to do well in fantasy, which players they're starting, and to me it just feels like purposeless blathering with no human connection in it whatsoever.
So yeah, as much as I talk about not criticizing trans women for being themselves, I find myself doing it. It makes me uncomfortable because to myself I'm thinking "God, Dale, you are acting so much like a guy right now," and it brings back bad memories of being expected to talk like that myself and thus constantly being in aimless friendships where I felt like no emotional connection was going on whatsoever, it was just always "stuff, stuff, stuff, stuff."
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2015, 10:55:47 AM
Men are taught to close themselves off to emotion and to react to a person's problems by solving them. from early childhood, the notion of being a "tough boy" is praised and being sensitive is discouraged. One result of that is that men are much more direct.
Women are taught to feel emotion and to react to a person's problems with empathy. From earliest childhood, the notion of being a "sweet girl" is praised and toughness is seen as being a bitch. One result of that is that women can be much more subtle.
I actually find this a bit funny, because while it is definitely a gender stereotype, (like, one of the biggest points in "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" was the "Mr. Fix-it" thing where men give solutions while women are looking for empathy,) I actually haven't found it to be as true in execution. There's definitely gender bias in there, where women are automatically seen as being more empathetic even if they're being every bit as much of a "fix-it" person as men are supposed to be.
Like, my ex-girlfriend Jenny, I actually had a LOT of frustrating conversations with her where I was feeling bad, ranting about something bad that had happened to me, and she immediately offered solutions to my "problems." And I just kind of stopped, not knowing what to say, because I really wasn't looking for solutions, wasn't looking for some way to actively solve this thing that I was whining about, I really just wanted someone to listen to me and understand my pain. She was completely and totally a "Ms. Fix-it." And she's completely 100% cis. So now that I'm thinking about it, maybe it isn't a gender thing at all, maybe it's just a matter of certain behaviors not feeling "right" to us, and we ascribe them to gender when they happen because they're gender stereotypes? I don't know.
Any talk about social gender roles and expectations is going to be dicey by nature because of the fine line between oppositional sexism, automatically gendering certain traits even though both men and women do them in real life, and being realistic with how most members of a sex act.
See my own experience on this subject pretty much falls in line with the G1 group described earlier in this thread.
As Phoenix stated, " There is group one (G1) consisting of people whose brains had minimal or no masculinization, leaving the default female identity intact."
I started the social transition long before hormones so by the time I was on hrt, everything from mannerisms to speech patterns were already there and flowed naturally even better than before cause estrogen just relaxed/eased my dysphoria a lot. I started transition around 19/20 but didn't start hrt till around 21, a few months before my 22nd bday.
An interesting thing I realized the other day was that, looking back on my childhood and teenage years, I was very much like any other girl during that time in terms of overall attitude and social interaction. I tried desperately to be that "hyper alpha male" during high school to hide it but it never really worked. My peers, especially the boys in public school would call me out on being girly so I was constantly failing at trying to mask my female identity. I even had to train myself to walk like a guy back then too, where as walking like a cis girl always came much more natural to me. I guess that was due to my wide hips and overall feminine skeletal structure (another reason why I was always made fun of by boys). I always preferred and did hang out with girls growing up so the socialization factor later on at the start of transition was a very natural process cause most of it was already done. I always had this habit of absorbing things like a sponge. When it came to female socialization it felt right, where as all the male socialization always felt very forced and practically alien to me. It just felt so odd, like I had this disconnect with it.
In terms of what vibe I give out, its like very feminine I guess. Random women out in public start convos with me and whenever I'm in female spaces I get treated like any other girl or in any place really, guys open doors for me, I'm constantly being called honey and such..So it feels amazing to be at this point in my life where my body and identity are finally unified and everyone around me recognizes me for who I truly am. I went through so many struggles prior in my life that it's just so surreal to be at this point.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 11, 2015, 01:47:00 PMI actually find this a bit funny, because while it is definitely a gender stereotype, (like, one of the biggest points in "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" was the "Mr. Fix-it" thing where men give solutions while women are looking for empathy,) I actually haven't found it to be as true in execution. There's definitely gender bias in there, where women are automatically seen as being more empathetic even if they're being every bit as much of a "fix-it" person as men are supposed to be.
Well, I'm trying to avoid posting a dissertation about the intricacies of male and female socialization, so I was going for something simple, familiar, easy to see, and which has a lot of sociological backing behind it.
Of course men can be empathetic and women can sometimes want solutions. Of course little boys can sometimes get rewarded for sensitivity and little girls can sometimes get rewarded for toughness. None of that is the point.
The point I'm trying to make is that despite numerous exceptions, there are still generalities that can be observed in the socialization of people based on gender and those general rules of thumb about learned socialization have consequences throughout life.
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on January 11, 2015, 09:12:54 PM
See my own experience on this subject pretty much falls in line with the G1 group described earlier in this thread.
As Phoenix stated, " There is group one (G1) consisting of people whose brains had minimal or no masculinization, leaving the default female identity intact."
I'm very deliberately not saying anything about which group I would put myself in. And I am in no way stating a doubt about where you categorize yourself. However, after having discussed this article here and elsewhere a couple of times, I have noticed something interesting. So far every single person who has made a comment about it has categorized themselves in G1. I don't think I've yet seen anyone describe themselves as a G3. Not even one person.
If Anne Vitale's observation has any validity whatsoever, then folks who fall in the G3 category exist. We all seem to observe the existence of trans women who express a substantial amount of masculinity and don't seem to fit the G1 description (read the article if you're unclear on this; the link was posted earlier). So why does no one recognize themselves as fitting in G3?
I suspect that a lot of people are either unaware of the "vibe" we have been discussing or they just so badly want it not to be there that they convince themselves it isn't. And I suspect that the unwillingness of even a single person to acknowledge that G3 describes them better is a reflection of the same thing.
Once again, there is nothing inherently bad or wrong about having various amounts of "male" mixed into one's identity or ones actions or ones "vibe." But I do wish it were something we could be honest about, recognize it in ourselves, and discuss what it means. But I would be unsurprised if people who give off the male "vibe" are even aware of it, or whether they genuinely believe that "vibe" does not exist.
On a side note, however, I do wish to join in the thanks that have been expressed to all who have participated in this discussion. It is a touchy topic for a lot of people and a very hard one to really talk about. But yet it is an important issue, actually.
It seems like I am eternally fielding questions about "men in dresses." And unfortunately, one of the places that notion comes from is cis people's encounters with trans women who they judge to be more like men based on various things, including behavior and "vibes." (Alas, people are seldom concerned about trans men). This topic is very useful for me as I am always trying to figure out better ways of responding to that in ways that cis people will understand.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2015, 11:02:55 PM
I'm very deliberately not saying anything about which group I would put myself in. And I am in no way stating a doubt about where you categorize yourself. However, after having discussed this article here and elsewhere a couple of times, I have noticed something interesting. So far every single person who has made a comment about it has categorized themselves in G1. I don't think I've yet seen anyone describe themselves as a G3. Not even one person.
Oh, really? Time to break that pattern then :). When I read that article for the first time, I immediately noticed similarities between my life experience and description of G3. Never saw that one as an issue - rather the life cycle described in Vitale's article helped last pieces of puzzle to click in. At the same time, I did not recognise some of difficulties or struggles associated typically with G3 which could be attributed to the main topic of our discussion - masculine vibes or male persona residue. I also never made a deliberate attempt to rid my self of that persona - I was giving him time to fade out and when it did not happen, I just accepted "him". Yet, I have to say that despite descriptions of G3, a lot of things still came out naturally - or at least more natural and easier for someone who had mostly socialised as male. I really dont want to get into that "measuring" mode but in the light of some articles posted here on Susans', as well as picked up on the internet, I asked some of new female friends for honest feedback as to what impressions they had - some of them said that they felt very comfortable and did not feel any of issues which tend to occur when socialising with a guy; another one mentioned that she is getting 50/50 impression, mostly visual and emotional image conflicting with audial (she was referring to voice pitch). As was mentioned above, complete strangers (female) have struck up conversations with on on random places and guys would hold a door to me or say random things to which I often react with a huge internal WTF??? The point I was trying to make, is that You can be G3 and still blend in without much difficulties despite being in that group and despite having stronger male vibe than G1. Do I still have masculine traits? Of course, I do and hence would describe myself as non-binary - I could never be 100% female and I am happy and content with life experience I had, because it gives me a lot of edge and advantages when socialising with both genders - I feel and understand women and I know what motivates men. Besides, I am not afraid and still capable to act masculine when circumstances or danger of situation may require so.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2015, 11:02:55 PM
Well, I'm trying to avoid posting a dissertation about the intricacies of male and female socialization, so I was going for something simple, familiar, easy to see, and which has a lot of sociological backing behind it.
Of course men can be empathetic and women can sometimes want solutions. Of course little boys can sometimes get rewarded for sensitivity and little girls can sometimes get rewarded for toughness. None of that is the point.
The point I'm trying to make is that despite numerous exceptions, there are still generalities that can be observed in the socialization of people based on gender and those general rules of thumb about learned socialization have consequences throughout life.
I'm very deliberately not saying anything about which group I would put myself in. And I am in no way stating a doubt about where you categorize yourself. However, after having discussed this article here and elsewhere a couple of times, I have noticed something interesting. So far every single person who has made a comment about it has categorized themselves in G1. I don't think I've yet seen anyone describe themselves as a G3. Not even one person.
If Anne Vitale's observation has any validity whatsoever, then folks who fall in the G3 category exist. We all seem to observe the existence of trans women who express a substantial amount of masculinity and don't seem to fit the G1 description (read the article if you're unclear on this; the link was posted earlier). So why does no one recognize themselves as fitting in G3?
I suspect that a lot of people are either unaware of the "vibe" we have been discussing or they just so badly want it not to be there that they convince themselves it isn't. And I suspect that the unwillingness of even a single person to acknowledge that G3 describes them better is a reflection of the same thing.
Once again, there is nothing inherently bad or wrong about having various amounts of "male" mixed into one's identity or ones actions or ones "vibe." But I do wish it were something we could be honest about, recognize it in ourselves, and discuss what it means. But I would be unsurprised if people who give off the male "vibe" are even aware of it, or whether they genuinely believe that "vibe" does not exist.
On a side note, however, I do wish to join in the thanks that have been expressed to all who have participated in this discussion. It is a touchy topic for a lot of people and a very hard one to really talk about. But yet it is an important issue, actually.
It seems like I am eternally fielding questions about "men in dresses." And unfortunately, one of the places that notion comes from is cis people's encounters with trans women who they judge to be more like men based on various things, including behavior and "vibes." (Alas, people are seldom concerned about trans men). This topic is very useful for me as I am always trying to figure out better ways of responding to that in ways that cis people will understand.
Yeah I get what you're saying and I understand the concepts here being discussed. You see I can't possibly categorize myself in the g3 because I blend in within society and its because I transitioned young, plus I spent most of my life around women so the male socialization never took hold or in other words I'd say it wasn't really there to begin with. I didn't spend my adult life in the male side of society.
I mean if I had been an older transitioner then yes I would most definitely identify with g3 because spending so much time in that male role does imo damage the female identity to some extent. Not to say that it can't be repaired or the male socialization undone but I'd imagine its a much more difficult road since the moment you begin transition, you have so many new things to learn about yourself and the new world around you. That's why my heart goes out to the older folk, I can't imagine what they're going through. In fact reading a lot of their stories is part of the reason why it inspired me to transition when I did. So in a way I feel very thankful to them. I see so many of us young trans gals dismiss the older crowd and that just makes me sad honestly. They paved the road for us.
I've seen instances of the g3 here in susans with some of the older folk that have come and gone or with the new transitioners that are prehrt. I have yet to experience what its like hanging out with an older trans woman or a trans woman that doesn't pass or is in the early stages of transition so I can't really comment about real life experiences. Either way I'd be more than happy to hang out with any trans person passing, older, pre everything cause I've always been the kind of person to have empathy and look past the physical stuff. I should try going to a support group. I never went to one before. I guess whenever I do, I'll chime back in.
Having read the previous post by Lady_Oracle, made me think about something else with regard to classification of transsexuals proposed by Dr.Vitale (sorry :D)
What are exactly the criteria by which we decide whether we belong to G1 or G3? Age? It seems, at first, because it the first and most apparent distinction which was also made by Dr.Vitale (and which made me think about analogy with Blanchard - young vs. old). Blending in? Is blending in really that much dependant on age? Yes and no. In some cases, early transition helps to blend in because the damage by testosterone over the years and decades is prevented. In other cases, the damage is not that extreme - I have seen transfolks at the age of 30-40 and even older who do not present any explicit masculine facial features (and lets be honest, face comes the first when we try to gender strangers). And then again there are cases when early puberty creates a lot of damage before something can be done.
Life experience? One can spend years and decades making point of not enhancing or strenghtening the male persona and when finally decision to transition is taken there is not really much to unlearn.
Or is it a bit about exclusion - like, I am too old to fit into G1, so I must (MUST) be in G3? It is either one or the other, with no shady borders. Or is it not?
Another thing (sorry about bringing in personal perspective) - when I frst read about Blanchard, I figured out that I must be ->-bleeped-<- then, because I was not homosexual during my childhood (maybe I was rather bi, but I never let myself to explore that part). Except, I could not identify with other strong features attributable to ->-bleeped-<- (and I have read why Blanchard was hated and the opposite views - that a lot of folks who would fall under the ->-bleeped-<- category were in deep denial and thus would hate that term) - I had no extensive or prolonged experience of cross-dressing and it was not sexual. Yet, again, according to him, those who transition at older age must be ->-bleeped-<-s, so... Go figure :D.
And I have to stress and repeat once again that I feel very fascinated and amazed about the depth of this discussion - so far it has been great intellectual pleasure to follow it :).
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2015, 11:02:55 PM
I'm very deliberately not saying anything about which group I would put myself in. And I am in no way stating a doubt about where you categorize yourself. However, after having discussed this article here and elsewhere a couple of times, I have noticed something interesting. So far every single person who has made a comment about it has categorized themselves in G1. I don't think I've yet seen anyone describe themselves as a G3. Not even one person.
If Anne Vitale's observation has any validity whatsoever, then folks who fall in the G3 category exist. We all seem to observe the existence of trans women who express a substantial amount of masculinity and don't seem to fit the G1 description (read the article if you're unclear on this; the link was posted earlier). So why does no one recognize themselves as fitting in G3?
Because until being trans is de-stigmatized by society, NOBODY wants to admit that their brains might even be partially masculinized. Strictly according to biology, it doesn't matter what happened, each person is just being who they're biologically programmed to be. But in a society where a trans woman's validity as female is based on how well she blends in as cis, admitting that your behavior might be less than traditionally-feminine is akin to admitting that you're a lesser person.
I'm probably guilty of deliberately avoiding the G3 label myself... like, I'm technically a late-onset "heterosexual" trans person who didn't even have dysphoria until I was 13-14 years old, but I choose to not associate myself with the G3 that I'd probably technically be placed in due to my age and sexual orientation, and rather place myself somewhere in the middle between G1 and G3 due to my childhood gender-nonconformity, my naturally-effeminate mannerisms, CONSTANTLY getting read as gay by people all through my life, my high volume of female friends as a kid, the severity of my dysphoria to the point of self-mutilation once it started, and the fact that I never cross-dressed or got sexual gratification from it. Because I'll be honest, my age makes me question myself. (IE, "if I didn't know as a kid, but all of these people knew since their earliest memories, does that make me somehow "less trans" or mean that my gender identity is less valid?") And I'm constantly scared that my behavior is somehow not "female enough."
So yeah, this is a bit of an emotionally-charged topic.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2015, 11:02:55 PM
However, after having discussed this article here and elsewhere a couple of times, I have noticed something interesting. So far every single person who has made a comment about it has categorized themselves in G1. I don't think I've yet seen anyone describe themselves as a G3. Not even one person.
Interesting. Now I'm developing an unhealthy curiosity what group you would place me in, given that we've met IRL. :)
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2015, 11:02:55 PMIf Anne Vitale's observation has any validity whatsoever, then folks who fall in the G3 category exist. We all seem to observe the existence of trans women who express a substantial amount of masculinity and don't seem to fit the G1 description (read the article if you're unclear on this; the link was posted earlier). So why does no one recognize themselves as fitting in G3?
Wonder if there's a selection bias. My experience with G3 folks is that, as a rule, they don't dwell on their masculinity/femininity the way G1 folks do. Could it be that those of us who've put effort and angst into cleansing ourselves of masculine traits (I include myself in this category) would find a discussion like this interesting?
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 12, 2015, 04:46:03 AM
My experience with G3 folks is that, as a rule, they don't dwell on their masculinity/femininity the way G1 folks do. Could it be that those of us who've put effort and angst into cleansing ourselves of masculine traits (I include myself in this category) would find a discussion like this interesting?
And this is very curious observation, because my understanding always was that it was G3 who were supposed to dwell on those issues (for G1 it should have been all natural and easy) At least that was my impression from reading and re-reading that article countless times. At the same time, I have to admit that I have met very few transfolks in person.
G1 vs. G3: I'd categorize myself as G3, if anything, because of the following passages:
(Apparently talking about G1:)
Quote from: www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
Some boys in particular openly endure the taunts of their peers and castigations of their parents in order to live according to their cross-gender understanding.
I don't think this describes me. I did not (consciously) think of myself as a girl, not that I had any sisters to compare myself with (I don't think my 9-years-younger sister counts), nor did I engage in obviously girl-only behavior. I didn't engage in much boy-only behavior, though, despite a lot of pressure, ostracism, and outright punishment. I remember that the idea of a boy becoming a girl (something that crops up in children's literature) made me
very anxious, which now makes me suspect that some part of me was really attracted to the idea.
(Apparently talking about G3:)
Quote from: www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
Unable or uninterested in competing in organized boys' activities and having been shuffled decidedly away from playing with the girls, many became reclusive. To add to their confusion, and counter to behavior typically reported in openly gender dysphoric boys, many cloistered boys actually preferred solo play with boys' toys and had little or no interest in girls' toys. ... The more academic of this group report little or no interest in sports and rough and tumble play. To avoid castigation from their peers, they report spending a lot of time reading and studying.
This pretty much describes me (except maybe the studying.) We didn't have any girl toys, so it's not like I would have had the opportunity to show any interest in them even if I'd been so inclined.
Of course, we need to keep in mind that G1, G2, etc., are rather like borders in the Middle East -- an attempt by outsiders to divide up a mixed and varied reality into a few discrete states. Nobody (well, almost nobody) is going to fit neatly into one box. And the existence of these boxes encourages those who end up in one to adjust who they are and how they see themselves to fit what they think people in their box are supposed to be.
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 12, 2015, 04:46:03 AM
My experience with G3 folks is that, as a rule, they don't dwell on their masculinity/femininity the way G1 folks do. Could it be that those of us who've put effort and angst into cleansing ourselves of masculine traits (I include myself in this category) would find a discussion like this interesting?
I don't have enough experience with trans people, especially trans women, to even speculate as to who is G1, G2, or G3.
I do notice that a lot of cis men do dwell on their masculinity, as do M2F crossdressers. I'm concerned with "masculinity" sort of like the way I'm concerned about muggers -- they're both unpleasant things that I'd rather didn't come over and afflict me.
As for femininity: I'm mostly interesting in seeing which of the things tagged as "feminine" I'd like to (and
can) adopt and make a part of myself. But I wouldn't see adopting them as making me more of a woman -- in fact, most of my life, I've been protesting the way things I think are (or should be) gender neutral get gendered, e.g., liking babies, cooking, sewing, being supportive and nurturing, being assertive (something I'm not good at), being strong and someone who can be relied upon, etc.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on January 12, 2015, 01:42:00 AM
Having read the previous post by Lady_Oracle, made me think about something else with regard to classification of transsexuals proposed by Dr.Vitale (sorry :D)
What are exactly the criteria by which we decide whether we belong to G1 or G3? Age? It seems, at first, because it the first and most apparent distinction which was also made by Dr.Vitale (and which made me think about analogy with Blanchard - young vs. old).
With respect, I think that you and Lady_Oracle are kind of getting sidetracked by an observation that Anne Vitale made about the two categories. The article is about gender identity, not age at transition. What she is proposing is that there are folks who are assigned male who have a basically intact female identity (G1) and thekre are folks who are assigned male who have a female identity that has been experienced a substantial amount of masculinization (G3). She believes this to be because of brain development in the womb. It is not an article about age at transition and it is not about the impact of earlier/later transitions on a person's transition, although she does posit that a G1 person is more likely to transition earlier than a G3 person. That does not mean that people who transition earlier are G1 and those who transition later are G3.
I would suggest that if distinguishing between G1 and G3 is important to people, they should look to the question of identity rather than age, blending in, etc.
QuoteAnother thing (sorry about bringing in personal perspective) - when I frst read about Blanchard, I figured out that I must be ->-bleeped-<- then, because I was not homosexual during my childhood (maybe I was rather bi, but I never let myself to explore that part). Except, I could not identify with other strong features attributable to ->-bleeped-<- (and I have read why Blanchard was hated and the opposite views - that a lot of folks who would fall under the ->-bleeped-<- category were in deep denial and thus would hate that term) - I had no extensive or prolonged experience of cross-dressing and it was not sexual. Yet, again, according to him, those who transition at older age must be ->-bleeped-<-s, so... Go figure :D.
There are trans* folks who identify as ->-bleeped-<-. They are, unfortunately, heavily stigmatized by trans* people, so it is difficult for them to come out with it.
Quote from: Asche on January 12, 2015, 08:05:49 AM
Of course, we need to keep in mind that G1, G2, etc., are rather like borders in the Middle East -- an attempt by outsiders to divide up a mixed and varied reality into a few discrete states. Nobody (well, almost nobody) is going to fit neatly into one box. And the existence of these boxes encourages those who end up in one to adjust who they are and how they see themselves to fit what they think people in their box are supposed to be.
I completely agree with you that this divides a mixed and varied reality into various boxes. But I should point out that in addition to being a well known psychologist, Anne Vitale is also a trans woman. There's an interview with her where she talks about her transition here, for anyone who may be interested:
http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/UPDATE%20Fall%202010%20-%20Final.pdf
QuoteI don't have enough experience with trans people, especially trans women, to even speculate as to who is G1, G2, or G3.
Well, trans women are by definition not G2 because G2 refers to a group of trans men. G2 is the ftm equivalent of G1. I thought it was interesting that there is no G4 ftm equivalent to G3. She explains why and I don't want to sidetrack the conversation, so I'll just say I'm not sure I agree with her on that part and leave it at that.
Many thanks to Asche and Emily for breaking the trend of no one being willing to say they might be a G3.
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 12, 2015, 04:46:03 AM
Interesting. Now I'm developing an unhealthy curiosity what group you would place me in, given that we've met IRL. :)
I'd apply my usual practice and squirm to avoid answering the question. I might ask why the answer is so important to you. Maybe I'd suggest that you should decide on your own answer rather than asking me. You'd probably have to really box me into a corner and push the issue to get me to answer it. :)
Serously, I never mind talking about things in the abstract. But I always tend to balk when it comes to specifics. I want to talk about controversial and emotionally charged things, but I don't want to hurt anyone. So I avoid commenting on people specifically, especially about things like presentation and identity and passing. I avoid commenting on everyone so that people can't infer from my passing on the question that the answer would be something they wouldn't like. I don't comment for good or for bad. Besides, why should it matter what I think? I'm no fount of wisdom.
You can comment on me if you want to. I like to keep my gender history and identity nicely confusing and vague for people, especially trans* people. It helps to force them to take me more at face value for who I am instead of doing that "one of the guys" thing to me that I described earlier in this thread. Plus people come up with all sorts of theories about me and they make me giggle. :)
Anyhoo, the thing I take away from Anne Vitale's article is that maybe saying "I identify female" is not a complete description of a person's gender identity because there are lots of blends. My "contribution" if any is just to suggest that this blend of masculine/feminine identity probably finds expression. And maybe it helps to explain the male "vibe" that people so often describe from transwomen.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 12, 2015, 09:46:45 AM
I'd apply my usual practice and squirm to avoid answering the question. I might ask why the answer is so important to you.
I know how I see myself, but it's only by hearing how others see me that I truly know how I come across.
And you're one of the only people whom I could ask who would truly understand the question.
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 12, 2015, 10:48:52 AM
I know how I see myself, but it's only by hearing how others see me that I truly know how I come across.
And you're one of the only people whom I could ask who would truly understand the question.
You come across as a person with a kind heart who is still trying to find your place in the world and is doing the best you can. You seem like someone with much love to give, but who is blocked from doing it by the fact that you have not given enough of it to yourself.
I see your posts here. I listen to what you say when we run into one another face to face. I think you're good people and your heart is made of gold. I think that is a fact that transcends gender identity or gender expression.
The only advice I could give you is to try less and be more. That might seem like strange advice. But one of the advantages cis people have over trans* people is that they don't try to be their gender. A cis woman is not out there giving a lot of thought to whether it is okay for a woman to be a certain way. She just is what she is. These discussions about "vibes" or how to learn body language, etc. are unique to the trans* community. And they are about people who want to have something they don't have and want to be something that they are not--namely an idealized version of femininity that probably does not even exist in reality.
I know that the world is a harsh place. But I still believe that trans* people would be happier if they spent less time trying to be one thing and more time just being who and what they are.
You, Suzi, come across as a person with much love to give. But perhaps you need to give some of that love to yourself. Don't try to be something. Just be who you truly are. That includes all the sadness and the loneliness and the depression. Don't hide it. Share it. Give enough of your love to yourself to accept that you need not be anything other than what you are. Take a listen to this song until you can internalize its message that you already are what you are and what you are is beautiful, and strong enough, and bright enough:
http://youtu.be/XJmwb3uHt5Q
I am filthy stinkin' rich in friends. I also speak very freely about how bad my life is these days. It's sure not a secret. Lately I have been pretty honest with folks in telling them that I don't want to go out with them because I am not able to be good company because I'm too much of a wreck to be cheerful because of the situation I'm in. The response from people has been to insist on coming over to visit me. And I would submit to you that those two things are related.
Love is a funny thing that grows greater the more you give it away. So don't forget to give some to yourself,;at least enough of it to not withhold yourself--your real self--with all the joys and sorrows that come along with it. I think you'd find more people willing to embrace you than you might realize.
I'm sorry. I know that is not the answer you're looking for. But I do wonder if it might be an answer to the real question. And it's much more important than where anyone fits in some categories that some psychologist came up with in an academic paper somewhere.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 12, 2015, 09:46:45 AM
With respect, I think that you and Lady_Oracle are kind of getting sidetracked by an observation that Anne Vitale made about the two categories. The article is about gender identity, not age at transition. What she is proposing is that there are folks who are assigned male who have a basically intact female identity (G1) and thekre are folks who are assigned male who have a female identity that has been experienced a substantial amount of masculinization (G3). She believes this to be because of brain development in the womb. It is not an article about age at transition and it is not about the impact of earlier/later transitions on a person's transition, although she does posit that a G1 person is more likely to transition earlier than a G3 person. That does not mean that people who transition earlier are G1 and those who transition later are G3.
Sorry about getting side tracked but I should of just said its because of my biological identity that I never could fully immerse myself in "being male" and when I tried to be, it never really worked because my female identity was so strong that it would manifest no matter what I did to try to suppress it.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 12, 2015, 12:31:14 PM
... But one of the advantages cis people have over trans* people is that they don't try to be their gender. A cis woman is not out there giving a lot of thought to whether it is okay for a woman to be a certain way. She just is what she is. These discussions about "vibes" or how to learn body language, etc. are unique to the trans* community. And they are about people who want to have something they don't have and want to be something that they are not--namely an idealized version of femininity that probably does not even exist in reality.
Um, it's news to me that cis people don't worry about their gender. I'm constantly seeing men who are worried about their masculinity and there are whole movements devoted to teaching men how to be more "masculine." Boys are trained not to do anything which might be seen as "effeminate." Etc.
I'm less acquainted with the extent to which (cis) women worry about their femininity. Women's worries about femininity don't dominate the media the way men's insecurities about masculinity do, but that might simply be because the male-controlled media don't consider how women feel all that newsworthy, except as it affects men.
I hang around in a number of feminist on-line spaces (feminism has been a big part of my world view since before I had ever heard the word), and the sort of things I'm thinking of when I mention male vs. female "vibes" are a common topic, although they don't use the word. One such topic is how men relate to men vs. how men relate to women in terms of emotions -- basically, most men feel they can't talk with other men about their emotions, especially ones that they fear would make them seem less masculine; they end up only talking about them with their wives or SOs -- or else no one.
This is one reason I find I can't really relate to virtually any men I know. (My previous therapist -- male -- was like that, only it took me a while to realize that the problem wasn't me.) I want to relate to people on a more emotional level, and most men simply can't or won't, at least not with me. I don't know to what extent it's because I present as male and that turns on their "man talk" mode, or because they can't do it with anyone.
Even though I relate better to women, there's still a barrier. I know that there's a different way women relate to men that to women, and that they don't relate to me the way they do to other women, but I don't know how much is because I present male and how much because I give off some "vibe" that triggers the warier, slightly more defensive "talking to men" mode. If it's mostly the former, then transition will presumably solve the problem. If it's more the latter, then I have a lot more work to do on myself.
Quote from: Asche on January 12, 2015, 03:54:31 PM
Um, it's news to me that cis people don't worry about their gender. I'm constantly seeing men who are worried about their masculinity and there are whole movements devoted to teaching men how to be more "masculine." Boys are trained not to do anything which might be seen as "effeminate." Etc.
Admittedly, there's a lot I do not know about men. But I did a quick Google search about teaching me to be masculine and I came up blank. Maybe I tried the wrong search words, but if there is such a movement, I'd love to learn more about it. Any links would be appreciated.
I've never known a cis man or cis woman to worry much about passing. I've never heard them train their voices to sound like their gender. I've never known them to sit and study the movements of people to try to emulate gender appropriate body language. Etc, etc, etc.
Of course most men don't want to be effeminate and most women don't want to be masculine. But they also don't spend a great deal of time worrying about whether hat thing they did yesterday might have seemed masculine.
Of course children learn to behave too. They learn it so well they don't have to give it much thought.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 12, 2015, 10:23:15 PM
Admittedly, there's a lot I do not know about men. But I did a quick Google search about teaching me to be masculine and I came up blank. Maybe I tried the wrong search words, but if there is such a movement, I'd love to learn more about it. Any links would be appreciated.
Asche definitely isn't joking about that... these articles on becoming more masculine are EVERYWHERE. There's a reason why testosterone-boosting drugs have become so popular as TV commercials recently... lots of men are worried that they're not masculine enough or that they're somehow losing their manliness by being forced into domestic roles and the like.
http://reclaimourrepublic.wordpress.com/2014/02/25/the-war-on-men-10-ways-masculinity-is-being-castrated/
http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Manly
http://www.mazermedia.com/news/mens-psychology-becoming-masculine-sexually-attractive/
http://elitedaily.com/life/why-this-generation-needs-to-make-being-manly-cool-again/
http://www.amazon.com/Step-System-Becoming-More-Masculine-ebook/dp/B00GG5I7F8
And cis women do indeed worry about not being "female enough" too. The only difference is that in their frame of mind, they're not worried about not "passing" as women, they're worried about feeling unfeminine, unattractive or "mannish." LOTS of women who are taller or larger-built or athletic feel really awful about how they feel unfeminine. Here's a few links on that:
http://www.goddessdeeva.com/2013/01/tall-tales-internalising-being.html
http://community.scarymommy.com/thread/762/516723-tall-feel-giant-unfeminine
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090131142146AA923Qw
http://www.->-bleeped-<-.com/r/AskWomen/comments/2du9eg/how_do_i_stop_feeling_so_ugly_and_unfeminine/
http://www.self.com/life/health/2013/10/athletic-body-regret/
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2015, 11:02:55 PMOnce again, there is nothing inherently bad or wrong about having various amounts of "male" mixed into one's identity or ones actions or ones "vibe." But I do wish it were something we could be honest about, recognize it in ourselves, and discuss what it means. But I would be unsurprised if people who give off the male "vibe" are even aware of it, or whether they genuinely believe that "vibe" does not exist.
I don't believe it exists. Or rather I do. But I don't believe it exists in my body as actor, I believe it exists in your head as observer. I don't see behaviours as inherently gendered, any more than colours or clothes or well, anything. Gender is an idea that we attach to the thing, and then proceed to socially enforce as normative.
When I sit with my legs crossed above the knee, I am not "sitting like a girl." I am sitting with my legs crossed. People observing me perceive the action of sitting with my legs crossed above the knee as "sitting like a girl." Or to put it simply, gender is frequently less of an adjective and more of a verb. We gender people, we gender actions, we gender speech and behaviour and ideas and emotions and every little thing. Because we have been trained to do this, and we have been trained to do it from a young age in a very precise manner.
When I was going to an electrologist back in the day, she commented that I was unlike other trans women she had treated. (Well for one, I don't ID as a woman, but she didn't know that...) I was "serious"; I was "so obviously female." Whatever. What she really meant is "you sound female and you look female and you speak quietly and listen attentively and passively and you BEHAVE like a good girl." Or rather "congrats for conforming to the patriarchy, you win a gold star." Hilariously I was dressed in men's clothes at the time (as is my wont), but it didn't matter because my "natural femininity shined through" (comment from my gender therapist under similar circumstances; GAG). I.e. I was young and pretty and she couldn't see any man in my face or body.
It's nonsense. And sexist, heteronormative nonsense at that. I am an andro queer female. I present masculine-of-centre. I've never worn a dress or dangly earrings or high heels in my life and I have no intention of starting any time soon. I have as much "natural femininity" as the average banana. All these people are noticing is that I am conventionally attractive for a lady-equivalent person, I was socialized to be polite to strangers, I read people well, and I'm shy.
But that isn't the only thing that's going on. The other thing is, many, many trans folk are kind of bat->-bleeped-<-. I mean, sorry, but we are, self included. Dysphoria is vile, society treats us like lepers and it all takes a definitive mental toll, so a lot of us deal with various kinds of being a screwed up mess as a result. My experience of living in a house of trans women recovering from SRS for a week was a fascinating display of everything from major depression to extreme narcissism to social dysfunction to crippling anxiety to actual delusions and disconnect from reality. My arms are covered in self-inflicted scars from back in the day, I'm medicated for anxiety... and I'm relatively sane compared to many. And those that are worst off are the ones who gravitate to support groups, while creatures who are more stable vanish like ghosts. Am I surprised you encountered a bunch of people lacking social grace in that environment? No, not really. I have too. The only difference: I would describe them as irritating and obnoxious rather than "male vibes."
And yet you are correct, I would more often ascribe that kind of behaviour to males than females. Because men can get away with that ->-bleeped-<-, and women can't. Because of power imbalance. Not because of some inherent characteristic, but because "bitch" is so easily attached to any female who exercises any degree of power or autonomy. And good girls aren't supposed to be like that. I'm simplifying obviously, but that is the core of it.
What you are seeing is most likely people who are or were in a lot of pain and didn't learn how to behave well because they weren't forced to. Just people. Nothing special. You can call it "male vibes" if you like. But the gender is in your eyes, not in their bodies.
Because the truth is, those people were women. So their "vibes" were the vibes of women. Their actions were the actions of women. Their behaviours were the behaviours of women. Gender identity isn't about how you are perceived, it's about how you self-perceive.
And I had to giggle at the suggestion that the "male vibe-y" be ditched into the non-binary spectrum. Yesh, I'm as non-binary as the next but I like to think I've got some semblance of social grace, maybe even a dash or two of sweetness on a good day!
Basically, Asche, you met some trans folks who you didn't get on with. S'cool. Bet I could totes charm your socks off though and I'm about as "masculine" as trans females get. ;)
The depth of this conversation is mind-boggling. Ive read through all of it, twice, but Im going to need to read it again and again. There is so much to absorb, and the layers of possibility are so intricate, the entanglement of the various posts so knotted.
Julie, I want to thank you for your post of Jan 11. The sensitivity you expressed really touched a chord deep within me.