I am wondering if most people are able to pass, no matter what age or genetics they are working with. (talking about on the MtF spectrum) Given enough surgeries and voice work etc I'm wondering if most can pass, or if I'm just one of those few cases that was doomed from the start. :/ I started transition at around 25, I'm thin and I'm 6 feet tall, every one seems to say I'll be ok eventually with FFS and such, but I have no idea how I could ever blend in with my body in daily life as any other woman...I hope I'm not one of those absolute lost causes is all...I really want to be able to get on with my life and I've been transitioning for almost 3 years on hormones now....
What's interesting is I've talked to other trans women who have transitioned and pass fine and have very similar measurements to me....but to myself I just look odd and strange in most clothes whereas I see pictures of them and they don't at all.
Chest: 35 inches
Waist: 30 inches
Hips: 34 inches
Under bust: 33 inches
Shouldlers: 17.5 inches
Hand length (from middle finger to wrist): 8 inches
Palm length: 3.5 inches
Shoe size: Women's 12-13
Head size: 23.7 inches or 60 cm
Height: 6 feet
Weight: 160 lbs. (I'm pretty slim)
I always feel like I'm too big and bulky, but maybe not....I'm not sure anymore...
Yes, "passing" is completely impossible for some people. It's completely impossible for me because I tell people that I'm a crossdresser. You're going to be fine once you get past your hangup over what other people think of you.
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 09, 2015, 07:52:38 PM
Yes, "passing" is completely impossible for some people. It's completely impossible for me because I tell people that I'm a crossdresser.
I'm not following that last part...is there a reason you tell people that?
The day I ran out of sh*ts to give about what anyone else thought was the day I set myself free.
I am 6'2", huge frame, muscular, big hands, big feet and weigh well, I don't want to know. Safe to say north of two bills though. Hey, I'm big. Whatever. Passing really has more to do with demeanor and attitude than looks anyway. I'm just a big girl. That's all. Nothing to see here...
I can't change these things, so I stopped worrying about them and worked hard on everything else.
If you don't think you pass, you probably won't. Believe in yourself, forget about what others think, be yourself and you're golden.
Quote from: lemons on January 09, 2015, 08:00:31 PM
I'm not following that last part...is there a reason you tell people that?
That's how I identify. I have no issues with being a crossdresser, I'm very open about it.
Hugs, Devlyn
I was thinking about this in another thread. I think I worry less about passing than I do about being accepted as a woman. I don't even care about being accepted as a gg, but I sort of dread the idea of people thinking of me as just a crazy guy in a dress. As Jill said, so much of it is attitude and demeanor. I just hope I can have that confidence.
Lemons, I've seen some pics you posted of yourself and I seriously don't understand how you don't pass. Do you go out in girl mode and everyone calls you sir? Or do you only presume they can tell? You say you're slim but then say you are bulky, at 160lb/6' you are comparable to my 170lb/6'3" - I'd guess my other measurements are similar but I don't have a measuring tape to know, I lost or burned it or threw it out because fretting about those things only made me feel bad about myself. I'm sure I've told you before passing isn't just about how you look, it's about presentation (clothes, hair, shoes, jewellery, makeup. posture..there's no need to go overboard just tastefully enough) and confidence and/or lousy not caring what others think (see Jill's comment above!).
You talk about physical aspects and surgery, but what might be some of those presentation and confidence points that could be changed to help?
Quote from: Ms Grace on January 09, 2015, 09:35:57 PM
Lemons, I've seen some pics you posted of yourself and I seriously don't understand how you don't pass. Do you go out in girl mode and everyone calls you sir?
Yes. Or sometimes worse. Like "freak" or "->-bleeped-<-got."
Only at work with customers do I ever get correctly read. And even then it's very 50/50.
Quote from: Ms Grace on January 09, 2015, 09:35:57 PM
You say you're slim but then say you are bulky, at 160lb/6' you are comparable to my 170lb/6'3"
Weird. That means I'm not slim? My lowest I've been is 150 lately and highest about 175. I just mean bulky in that my build is kind of boxy with my square shoulders and narrow hips and all.
Well I consider myself quite slender. I say a genetic woman on the train the other day who would have been 6'1"... she was quite young and really skinny. I thought to myself that it would be interesting to see her in her late thirties/early forties when the weight usually starts to pile on. Anyway, I've seen women at 6' who have been huge, I was practically anorexic next to them.
I'm appalled that people would call you freak/->-bleeped-<-got regardless of your appearance. But I'm curious what you might be wearing when you cop that kind of unwarranted abuse?
I'm not sure if this will be any help, but I've found that feminine accoutrements tend to outweigh a lot of gender signifiers. This is all purely my opinion based on the mountains of books I read and tutorials I watched.
Pay attention to other women your age and what they wear. Pay attention to fashion through magazines and shows, and the flattering colors that match your season coloring. Different colors rotate in and out of trend. Darker reds like wine, but with more brownish hues are supposed to be on trend right now for instance. Be mindful of your outfits, make sure they don't clash with themselves. Patterns and. color opposites can be tricky when you incorporate them.
Get clothes that flatter an inverted triangle figure. Skirts and dresses that are a-line, flouncy, and around knee length draw attention to your lower half and accentuate your hips. Boot cut, straight leg and boyfriend jeans work well too. 3/4 sleeves shorten your arms, tops with scoop or v neckline diminish the width of the shoulder. Find a store near you that sells larger sized women's shoes, they exist, models and WNBA players need shoes too. If you don't have a pair of UGGs, or nice boots, get them and wear them, it's winter.
Skinny jeans and pencil skirts make broad shoulders look bigger, as do camis, halters, tube tops, and boat necklines. Essentially you want to wear embellishments on the areas that are smaller to fake an hourglass figure. There's such a large variety of styles because women can be pear shaped, rectangular and the inverted triangle as well.
If you're not good with makeup, go to Sephora or a department store like Macy's, and have a professional demo their line of products, then buy the ones you like from them. Watch what they choose for you, why, and how they apply it. Too much or badly applied makeup is worse than none.
Walk slower with shorter strides, and practice as though you were on a balance beam. Gliding around with grace is more effective than you might think.
Read You Just Don't Understand, by Deborah Tannen. It thoroughly explores the differences in how women tend to speak compared to men. Public or private, personal or professional, many of the habits that you have grown up with in your conversational intonation and how and when you speak are more significant than the pitch of your voice when people are trying to read gender from you.
Confidence matters. Most people are attracted to it more than any other quality.
Not all women can be Barbies, most cheat anyway (Spanx[emoji6]). Instead of comparing yourself to an idyllic stereotype, embrace the feminine qualities you have and accentuate them with sparkles or embellishments or patterns.
Accessories are very important. Bigger purses will look better on larger/taller women. Earrings and manicured nails are synonymous for feminine IMO.
If there's any particular part of your anatomy you feel screams MALE, there are ways to cover it up. Prominent Adam's apples can be covered by scarves, or reverse contour makeup or other clothes. Women have hyoid cartilage on their trachea as well, just not usually very much. Widows peaks and high foreheads can be handled with bangs, hats, beanies, etc. Using the color opposite of your five o'clock shadow as your foundation, orangish if you have paler skin like me, will make any stubble very difficult to see on your face when it grows in.
Don't wear heels unless you can walk in them. Flats are on trend right now anyway. If you must wear heels and are having issues with balance, there are exercises you can do to strengthen your ankles to help eliminate any wobbling. One of the simplest is pretending you are drawing the alphabet letter by letter with your foot, alternating left and right. Many dancers and models do these to prepare for shows and performances they have to do in heels.
That's all I can think of for now [emoji2]
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
A major problem is self perception. I transitioned 17 years ago, the occasions people take me for being trans are very rare, I am told I "pass" fine and my gyn told me I have a absolutely female phenotype now - I have wider hips than chest while having E cup breast size.
Still - when I think of myself I cannot but wonder why this would be - given my wide shoulders, my partially masculine facial features, my wide ribcage, my voice,... etc - if I look in the mirror there are quite a few moments or even days where I would say that this screams "trans" or even "male". There is something wrong with the self perception of very many transpeople, sadly and I believe it is not all correctable by changing the body.
Quote from: lemons on January 09, 2015, 07:45:05 PM
I am wondering if most people are able to pass, no matter what age or genetics they are working with. (talking about on the MtF spectrum) Given enough surgeries and voice work etc I'm wondering if most can pass, or if I'm just one of those few cases that was doomed from the start. :/ I started transition at around 25, I'm thin and I'm 6 feet tall, every one seems to say I'll be ok eventually with FFS and such, but I have no idea how I could ever blend in with my body in daily life as any other woman...I hope I'm not one of those absolute lost causes is all...I really want to be able to get on with my life and I've been transitioning for almost 3 years on hormones now....
What's interesting is I've talked to other trans women who have transitioned and pass fine and have very similar measurements to me....but to myself I just look odd and strange in most clothes whereas I see pictures of them and they don't at all.
Chest: 35 inches
Waist: 30 inches
Hips: 34 inches
Under bust: 33 inches
Shouldlers: 17.5 inches
Hand length (from middle finger to wrist): 8 inches
Palm length: 3.5 inches
Shoe size: Women's 12-13
Head size: 23.7 inches or 60 cm
Height: 6 feet
Weight: 160 lbs. (I'm pretty slim)
I always feel like I'm too big and bulky, but maybe not....I'm not sure anymore...
every woman comes in a different shape and size. are your fingers the same? no. so everybody else. you should embrace yourself and stop comparing yourself to other women, cis or trans. you are a woman, so cis women are somewhat bulky and very tall, but that doesn't make them any less of a woman. so love who you are no matter what shape\size you come with.
It seem the successes far outweigh those who fail at transition or am I wrong? Are the ones who make it simply more vocal? It's hard to say...
I mean, for MtF individuals, many go through male puberty, and it's hard to pass as female after male puberty if your bone structure develops masculine enough....so I don't understand how so many succeed and very few seem to fail??
I think to say "fail at transition" can be a fairly loaded proposition. When I was 25 in 1991 I essentially "failed at transition", primarily because I believed I had "failed". And yet, looking at pictures of me from the time I can say I had no basis in fact for that belief - sure I probably could have done with a better wardrobe and better support and better resources too, but I was there. All I had to do was see that I was and believe in myself. And I couldn't. So if I "failed" at anything it was that.
I passed when I wore female clothes, I didn't when I wore andro clothes. Do you think that sunk in? No. I thought I was too tall. Did anyone else notice? No. I was my own worst enemy. The truth is I just wasn't ready. I know that doesn't apply to everyone who doesn't go ahead with transition, but it's equally true that not going ahead doesn't equal failure.
Quote from: anjaq on January 11, 2015, 12:09:09 PM
A major problem is self perception. I transitioned 17 years ago, the occasions people take me for being trans are very rare, I am told I "pass" fine and my gyn told me I have a absolutely female phenotype now - I have wider hips than chest while having E cup breast size.
Still - when I think of myself I cannot but wonder why this would be - given my wide shoulders, my partially masculine facial features, my wide ribcage, my voice,... etc - if I look in the mirror there are quite a few moments or even days where I would say that this screams "trans" or even "male". There is something wrong with the self perception of very many transpeople, sadly and I believe it is not all correctable by changing the body.
Don't be so harsh on yourself. Open your eyes and see lots of women have male traits. Some have lower pitch, others have body hair, many can't walk properly on heels and so on... It's admirable to see even after 17 years you're still willing to learn, to do it better. But really, isn't life all about living?
Quote from: lemons on January 11, 2015, 06:01:20 PM
It seem the successes far outweigh those who fail at transition or am I wrong? Are the ones who make it simply more vocal? It's hard to say...
I'd say those that transition and end up happy probably outnumber those that transition and aren't happy.. Success and failure are a little loaded.
QuoteI mean, for MtF individuals, many go through male puberty, and it's hard to pass as female after male puberty if your bone structure develops masculine enough....so I don't understand how so many succeed and very few seem to fail??
Attitude. Confidence. For myself, I know I'm a woman - and that translates back in to confidence.
Regardless of how feminine you may look, if you don't think you 'pass', you never will. Your lack of self confidence will shine through. You also seem to be locked on the "looks" side of passing.. "Looks" are merely a part of the equation.
I've had fairly average results from HRT, my life experiences tell me I pass.. Based on my own feelings, my looks let me down - but I have the rest of the package together enough that the looks aren't as important as they might be.
Quote from: lemons on January 11, 2015, 06:01:20 PM
It seem the successes far outweigh those who fail at transition or am I wrong? Are the ones who make it simply more vocal? It's hard to say...
I mean, for MtF individuals, many go through male puberty, and it's hard to pass as female after male puberty if your bone structure develops masculine enough....so I don't understand how so many succeed and very few seem to fail??
I don't think so. I know far more transwomen IRL who don't pass. But I don't hear them complain. Most of them are happy enough to be living as women that their lives have already surpassed their dreams.
The happiest trans women I know are those who don't pass. They never worry about being clocked.
Quote from: Indoctrinated on January 11, 2015, 06:41:21 PM
Don't be so harsh on yourself. Open your eyes and see lots of women have male traits. Some Some have lower pitch, others have body hair, many can't walk properly on heels and so on... It's admirable to see even after 17 years you're still willing to learn, to do it better. But really, isn't life all about living?
Well I begin to believe now that it is just me that is wrong. I know quite a few transwomen who have those perceptions. It is common and one has to work it out in the mind - believe what others see and don't see and not be decepted by a faulty self perception that emphaszies some traits. On the other hand one has to be realistic and that is hard. I know some women have lower pitch, others have body hair, others have some masciline facial features, others are tall, but the more of that is combined, the more uncomfortable it gets for that woman and many transwomen combine several of these traits. So I do see the value in corrective surgery and using other helpers, but one has to accept at some point the things that have worked and not be unhappy still. I know women online who had FFS or VFS and still think they look or sound male despite there is no trace of that. Thats what I meant about self perception - one needs to be ready to accept that things are ok, even though one might have a more feminine image in mind.
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 11, 2015, 07:52:32 PM
The happiest trans women I know are those who don't pass. They never worry about being clocked.
Haha - well, that is a way to see it. I am not sure if this is really what they wanted and if they are totally happy about that, but what else to do. At least one does not need to be paranoid about "passing" and beine "unstealthed"...
All my girlfriends, cis and trans, have a few characteristics they are self conscious about. Unfortunately, as we become acculturated to the female experience, the learning curve is high because we're catching up to women our age with a lifetime of practice. Also, it's easy to confuse body dysmorphia with a healthy reaction to impossible beauty standards.
Our perceptions of ourself, are flawed in a few ways. The flaws we perceive are often aspects other people ignore because they are too busy obsessing about their flaws to notice our turmoil. Other people hear our voice differently than we do. When we talk, the vibrations created by projecting our voice reverberate in our inner ear, deepening the sound we hear while talking. Record yourself speaking to hear the difference.
I have met a few trans women at my local support groups that I genuinely don't think could pass as cis regardless of surgeries, but it is VERY VERY rare, is especially uncommon in anyone who transitions while they still have youthful androgynous features, (trust me, you do,) and it generally only happens to people with multiple features that are so glaringly masculine that they immediately say "went through a male puberty" no matter what else they do to try and make up for it. And trust me, you are NOT one of those people. From your pictures, your body is VERY feminine, and your face is generally very cute, young, and andro looking. You have a lot of delicate features, a very feminine chin and profile, and honestly I think the only thing stopping you is your hair. Very few trans women have the privilege of passing with short hair. Even cis-women with short hair get misgendered on occasion, as do cis guys with long hair and shaven faces. I'm not saying it's fail-proof, but it really helps to have as many feminine features as possible to complete the picture. Longer hair softens a face. It would help a lot.
Also, I don't know what your voice sounds like, but working on your voice is probably the biggest gender tipping point for people who look androgynous. Lots of cis-women look male-ish, and I've seen cis guys with long hair who look female-ish, but as soon as they speak it becomes blatantly obvious what gender they are. That would help tremendously as well. It's been my biggest help in passing even though I'm over 6 feet tall, large-built, and have a MUCH bigger forehead, chin, and nose than you do.
Hi,
What would you rather be accepted for who you are as a person and be involved with day to day life a member of many groups of over 1500 people on commites in charge of detail with the groups and be known and know all those around you ,
OR......
be the most pretty looking woman and not be accepted for who you are , because you are afraid of who you are with no confidence in who you are no self worth and no selfassurance and hide away because you are unsure of your self , yet you are pretty looking ,
you know some of us females yeap im one of them and sure not pretty looking let alone sexy do i even look like a female wellllllll.........???? not really yet ,
Im one very strong woman very confident in who she is and know who i am so how do i show im pretty how do i give of my self to others what do i need to do to be counted as a female ,
ya ya okay woman by empyting my self to others in a way i show my beauty form who i am as a person my makeup and what makes me that person who people wont to have around with them , so would you say my looks or lack of have any bearing or make any difference to how people treat me or are they just playing myself along , Im incharge of people who work for me and they will again and others do all the time ,
So my thinking is acceptance is far better than my looks im just a female whos a bit more masculine in her facial features and really so what no one cares,
You said about FFS im not against it just for myself its not worth any thing to me and no not going to happen ,
I need confidence in who i am and in my self for who ,,,I,,,,am,, not change how i look , just another way of looking at it ,
...noeleena...
Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 15, 2015, 01:43:13 AM
Stuff
My biggest concern with passing is my head size. It's very large. I have other large features, but they aren't as obvious and are easier to hide on my body. I suppose that's reassuring hearing that, I do look very young and I've had instances at work where simply raising my voice up would get me correctly gendered, even if it was far and few between instances. I definitely still don't pass well, but upon having an FFS consult I was told my head wasn't that big and it was more the shape of my head being long and square which could be helped with FFS procedures. My consult was pretty optimistic and it was with Spiegel who doesn't sugarcoat and it's pretty blunt with what he can do, so I guess that's good...
I mean I have noticed most people can pass after enough time or enough surgery or whatever, so I guess it's not impossible for me as I might think?
I have a size 8 melon. I pass even without surgery. Attitude is 90% of what got me here.
In the end it is: Change what you can change and the rest has to be taken as it is, with attitude and with not making a big matter out of it. What else is there - what other options? Not transition? Is that even possible if one is a woman but has a virilized body?
Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 15, 2015, 01:43:13 AM
I have met a few trans women at my local support groups that I genuinely don't think could pass as cis regardless of surgeries, but it is VERY VERY rare, is especially uncommon in anyone who transitions while they still have youthful androgynous features, (trust me, you do,) and it generally only happens to people with multiple features that are so glaringly masculine that they immediately say "went through a male puberty" no matter what else they do to try and make up for it. And trust me, you are NOT one of those people. From your pictures, your body is VERY feminine, and your face is generally very cute, young, and andro looking.
You mentioned passing with short hair...yeah I am growing it out. But it's funny, at work I've been gendered correctly maybe a few dozen times with short hair by customers here and there, so maybe I'm not so screwed.
People seem to think I'll be ok but the fact that I'm gendered male 100% of the time when I'm dressed andro isn't very encouraging. I wish my body was as feminine as it might look in pictures...it's a matter of wearing the right clothes and even then I have small hips and square shoulders and a wide chest. It's good to know that that is very rare, as I have seen most people who have transitioned seem to pass after a while or after certain surgeries. What would multiple glaringly masculine features be? I feel like I have all of them with a wide ribcage, my shoulders, hands, feet, big head, etc.
Quote from: lemons on January 21, 2015, 09:33:43 AM
You mentioned passing with short hair...yeah I am growing it out. But it's funny, at work I've been gendered correctly maybe a few dozen times with short hair by customers here and there, so maybe I'm not so screwed.
People seem to think I'll be ok but the fact that I'm gendered male 100% of the time when I'm dressed andro isn't very encouraging. I wish my body was as feminine as it might look in pictures...it's a matter of wearing the right clothes and even then I have small hips and square shoulders and a wide chest. It's good to know that that is very rare, as I have seen most people who have transitioned seem to pass after a while or after certain surgeries. What would multiple glaringly masculine features be? I feel like I have all of them with a wide ribcage, my shoulders, hands, feet, big head, etc.
Join the club. Passing in androgynous clothes is also not often a luxury that a lot of us have. (Trust me, I wish it was, because being forced to conform to gender stereotypes just to be gendered female sucks, but it's just something that a lot of us have to do in order to pass consistently, due to the circumstances of our bodies.) I still get stared at when I wear androgynous clothes, presumably because people can't figure out what sex I am. And passing in a combination of androgynous clothes and short hair? Forget it. Not unless your body and face are both COMPLETELY blatantly female. Hell, there's even a lot of cis-women who get misgendered when they're wearing androgynous clothes and short hair.
And to answer the second question, no, I'm sorry, but no you don't have "glaringly masculine" features. When I say "glaringly masculine," I'm usually talking about people who are very tall, (5'11" and up,) VERY stocky and large-built, with lots of masculine facial features like a big chin and very prominent brow bossing, and who also didn't get very much feminization from HRT to help with skin texture and body shape. And again, I just do not see those things on you. To my eyes, you have a more or less completely-androgynous face, and a more or less completely androgynous body. NOTHING on you is blatantly-masculine in the way that I spoke of, where people would still read it as "male" regardless of anything else.
Having read the following study, "Gender: An Ethnomethodological Approach," which actually looked into exactly what it took for certain figures to be perceived as male or female, the only consistent way for a figure to be perceived as female is to have almost a complete absence of "male" cues. Basically this study took the same non-gender-specific face and body, and then added "male" or "female" cues to it. It took FOUR female cues on average to overcome any single "male" cue and reach a female gendering 95% of the time. It's kind of depressing for trans women, but it's just something that we have to deal with.
In this study, the base rate for gendering the figures in their androgynous clothed state was 69% male, 31% female. That's pretty much a good baseline right there. When you don't present an observer with any "male" or "female" cues, they're going to guess "male" by default twice as often.
Another telling thing in this study is that the cues that they intended to be "female" cues (long hair, breasts, wide hips, no body hair,) were seen by at least 55% of the participants as "male" cues, where the "male" cues (short hair, body hair, narrow hips, flat chest) were never misinterpereted as "female" more than 36% of the time. Basically, any single "male" cue is going to stand out, while people are much more able to ignore "female" cues. Just adding a penis to any of the figures in the study increased male genderings to a whopping 96%. And it took FOUR "female" cues (long hair, breasts, wide hips, and no body hair,) in order for the figure with that one single "male" gender cue to reach a point where it was gendered male/female 50% of the time. Whereas it took THREE very specific "female" gender cues, a vagina, long hair, and breasts in order to reach that same 95% rate of gendering the figure female.
The point is, "female" gender cues don't have the same power. People by default see androgynous figures as "male" more often, and when "male" cues are added, it takes on average three or four "female" ones to counteract it. And in an absence of gender cues, it took several "female" ones before participants in the study consistently gendered a figure female.
So, well, unfortunately, if you want to be gendered female consistently, you need to have some "female" cues. And since trans women don't generally have blatantly "female" body cues, we have to make up for it with things like hair and clothes. Cis women can pull off the androgynous look because they have more blatantly-female body cues which can counteract their androgynous hair and clothes. Anything completely "androgynous" on its own will tend to be interpreted as male by people about twice as often as female. With you, all I see is androgyny. Your body is androgynous, your face is androgynous, your clothes are androgynous, your haircut is androgynous, so basically the reason you're not getting gendered female is because people have NOTHING to go on, and you aren't really showing any "female" cues, so people just default to male. (And again, cis-women with androgynous bodies, short haircuts, and who wear androgynous clothes are quite often misgendered male. It happens more than you might think.)
And so you know, going back to the not-passing thing, when I say "blatantly masculine" in terms of trans women who probably won't pass, I really do mean "blatantly masculine..." Cues that other people will read as "male" no matter what else is there, and see as being in blatant conflict to the feminine parts of their body, which will therefore immediately make people question "is that a man or a woman?" And again, you don't look masculine... you look androgynous. (A lot of trans women criticize ourselves for not being "feminine," and we perceive our body features to therefore be "masculine" because they're not as feminine as cis-women, when in fact they're not "masculine," they're just androgynous... features that, when combined with other feminine features around it, would not stand out as being "male." I do the same thing with my face. I can see every single little thing in my face that isn't feminine, every feature that I have that cis-women don't. And so it's tempting to freak out about how I can't possibly be passing, people can't possibly not notice how unfeminine I look. Where in reality, they don't notice. Because when I add in my long hair, my breasts and hips, and my smooth skin, my face doesn't stand out as "male," it's just androgynous, which means that it could be viewed as male or female depending on what cues are surrounding it.) And trust me, you look WAY more androgynous than me as a default. Adding "female" cues to you, they would not contrast with any part of your body. Your build is androgynous, your face is androgynous, your body frame is androgynous.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 21, 2015, 02:40:03 PM
And to answer the second question, no, I'm sorry, but no you don't have "glaringly masculine" features. When I say "glaringly masculine," I'm usually talking about people who are very tall, (5'11" and up,)
I mean I am 6 feet tall... :/
But other than that, yeah I guess my overall frame is kinda andro at this point. Leaning a bit more towards male or female depending on what clothes I'm wearing etc.
...and I'm 6'2"... :P
Mmk, fair.
So let's say going by this study that for every major "male" cue there have to be four "female" cues to override it.
The things I worry about I am not sure if they are distinct male cues or could be written off as just "bigger female body parts"
-Bigger hands,though I've seen older woman with about my sized hands, they are thin and they aren't meaty or stubby or anything, that are 8 inches long and 3.5 inches across palm
-Size 12 shoes in womens. Again, not unheard of, but quite rare.
-My shoulder length and circumference isn't terrible (17 inches across and 42 inches circumference) but coupled with them being square and having a wider ribcage it makes them stick out a bit, even though they're thin without any muscle on them anymore.
-Small hips in comparison to shoulders. I figure this could be fixed with body sculpting, so I'm keeping that as an open option down the line. My butt could also be a bit rounder and stick out more, it doesn't much for a woman...
-My HEAD size. It's 23.7 inches around and it looks like a massive bowling ball. I was told it's more the shape than size and that FFS could help that, so...who knows. Still, this and ribcage/square shoulders seem to be the biggest issues.
Things working:
+Voice isn't terribly deep anymore. With enough practice I think I'd be fine. Not at all impossible to train in my andro male range. (some trans women I know have very low voices and thus it is very difficult to ever get into a female range....that's not me at all. I've even been ma'med 3 or 4 times last year on the phone without trying...my resonance at this point is andro male while my inflection is very female, so just practice)
+Soft skin, some soft andro facial features
+Very thin body
+Being 6 feet, bigger body parts such as hands and feet and shoulders may seem a bit more balanced than on a shorter body?
+Thin legs and arms that read as feminine, literally almost no muscle on them lol
+Relatively thin chest all things considered, measurements are't too bad (Chest: 36, Waist: 30, Hips: 34)
+Solid B cup breasts, possibly on the verge of C
+Very clear skin
+Normal amount of body hair for a woman, (very very little) no more facial hair thanks to laser
+Full head of hair
Okay, now you're just nitpicking on things that nobody else would even notice or care about. When was the last time when, trying to see if someone was a man or a woman, you looked at their hands or feet?
(And I seriously do not know why you're so hung up on head size... I seriously just do NOT see it in the pictures you posted. And if an FFS surgeon told you that you don't have a big head, you probably don't. Okay, and since this is me talking to you, I just measured my own head... mine is freaking 25" around. And I'm NEVER gendered male by anyone, so I don't want to hear it. :P Seriously, every single topic where girls are posting about how they're so scared about their head being too big, or their shoulders too wide, or their ribcage too big, I just roll my eyes, because my measurements are WAY worse and yet I still pass.)
Think in generals. In general, how feminine/masculine are your hair, face, body frame, and secondary sexual characteristics.
Looking at yourself, are there really any features that stand out as blatantly "male?" (Not "I'm looking at women and comparing myself to them and my ___ is different than theirs.") No, I mean features that when you look at them, they appear to be "male" features.
From your list, I'd narrow it down to the following:
"Masculine" features that probably tip the scale toward people gendering you male:
-Higher shoulder-to-hip ratio. (And there are plenty of cis-women who are inverted-triangle shapes... don't let yourself feel like this dooms you or anything.)
-"Larger" features in general (including head, chest, hands, feet, etc. in this. They're all one package, and all in combination are a balanced thing that shows that you were probably exposed to higher levels of androgens.)
"Androgynous" features that more or less don't give people any gender-specific clues:
-Hair style
-Voice (if you're getting gendered a combination of male/female on the phone, it's in this range.)
-Facial features
-Body fat distribution (to my eyes, and based on the numbers you gave, you don't have either a more masculine apple/inverted-triangle fat distribution, or a more feminine pear/hourglass fat distribution, you seem to be in the androgynous "banana/straight" category which either sex could have.)
"Feminine" features that probably tip the scale toward people gendering you female:
-No body hair / facial hair
-Soft skin
-Boobs
-Lack of muscle
-Thick head of hair with no recession
With this list, I think you can probably see why when you add something else "masculine" to the equation, you're probably going to get read as male, while adding something "feminine" to the equation like clothes or hair would be right at the point where it would cancel out the "masculine" features and probably get you read as female.
And again, sheesh, quit beating yourself up. I have WAY more masculine measurements than a lot of people on this site, and yet I'm still able to pass. There's not some magic number in terms of height or head circumference or shoulder measurements that once you cross that arbitrary magic number it's impossible to pass. It's all about the harmony of the whole package.
Again, the people I'm talking about who probably couldn't pass, are those who have like 4 or 5 blatantly "male" features that are competing with their feminine ones... people who are tall AND large-built AND have "masculine" faces AND have larger features AND have "masculine" shoulder-hip ratios. That's just more things than any amount of feminine features can overcome. Where usually cis-women can get away with "male" haircuts and even "male" shoulder-hip ratios because on them it's the only part of their bodies that are "masculine." You and me (and probably most of the trans-women on this site) are somewhere between these two extremes, where we have a few "masculine" features, but not enough that we can't balance them out and achieve harmony as a whole presentation if we add enough "feminine" features. (Or get surgery to either remove one of the "masculine" features from the equation or add another "feminine" feature.)
I think your voice is your greatest tell. Too many T-girls "walk like a woman, talk like a man". I mean you can do things right, or why do them at all?
Lemons, like many other transwomen and some women, you have what's called the Inverted Triangle body type. There are styles, collar types, and hem-lengths that will naturally flatter your figure. Wear them.
You really aren't as far as you think from being called Miss 95% of the time. And don't worry about your size, your body is proportionate to your height. There are women taller than you, with bigger feet. Get your nails done, your hair colored and styled, and wear clothes that give inverted triangles an hourglass figure, and wear a purse. You're really not as far away from looking good.
Be careful attributing body dysmorphia to gender dysphoria. Body dysmorphia untreated, leads to an addiction to plastic surgery. Gender Identity Disorder can often include body dysmorphia as part of it, as transpeople tend to feel like their bodies betrayed them. But you are stuck with your body. Be happy you can transform it some, but learn to adjust your expectations to give yourself a break from your own harsh criticisms. The goal is to be happy at the end, not an ideal bastion of femininity.
Quote from: TamarasWay on January 21, 2015, 07:21:28 PM
I think your voice is your greatest tell. Too many T-girls "walk like a woman, talk like a man". I mean you can do things right, or why do them at all?
Eh, I know a lot of women that talk like guys. Albeit they don't have super low voices, but their intonation and pitch aren't always feminine. As long as you don't sound like Dr. Girlfriend from Venture Brothers, you'll be fine once you figure out feminine style/fashion/accessories. If you do sound like her, stop chain-smoking and pounding whiskey, it's super bad for you.[emoji135]
Hi Lemons,
Andrea James wrote about the three critical areas of passing over a decade ago, I believe they are still true today.
1. Face (solved with FFS + Hormones)
2. Beard (solved with Laser + Hormones)
3. Voice (solved, best, in my opinion with VFS.)
FFS, VFS, Hormones and beard removal will allow 95% of those undergoing those procedures to pass. Perhaps even 98% to 99% (Add SRS and "pass" naked.)
Hands, feet, waist to hip ration, breast size, height are all distractions (have little effect on passing or getting clocked) to the primary goal. The only time these things (big hands for example) will be mentioned is when the person, who brings up big hands as an issue, already knows the person is trans. either because the transperson reveals it openly or because the transperson was clocked due to shortcomings in beard removal, voice correction or masculine facial features.
I will personally add that having your natural hair rather relying on a wig is helpful. But, still, is not one of the "core" items.
Kind Regards,
Danielle