Anybody take this?
I normally would get Watson T, but instead they sent me something labeled West-Ward. It is still cypionate. Should I care? I am worried that it is some off-brand, whereas I had heard the name Watson before and not bothered at all by it. The west-ward box looks like it is pretending to be the Watson box like generics do.
You think it is worth it to talk to my doctor about it and ditch this bottle and try to get the brand I am used to? I have convinced myself this new brand of T's 'alternative' additives or whatever it does as a generic will have worse side effects (hair loss really). Is that even possible?
It doesn't matter which T you are on if hair loss is in your genetics somewhere it's gonna happen. Testosterone is always testosterone no matter what brand. The difference is the oil "surrounding" the T ,testosterone converts in your body into DHT that's a stronger form of testosterone that is responsible for hair growth like beard and body hair but its also responsible for hair loss on your head. How much you're body converts the testosterone into DHT is also different from person to person and there's nothing to do about that either except take meds that prevent the DHT from reaching and affecting you're scalp.
From what I know those meds are usually very expensive and you're doctor have to prescribe them for you , at least in my country could be different else where.
I did some digging just now and compared labels (which I should have done before freaking out and posting, but w/e) I will share just for completions sake.
they are both made by the same people in the same place in portgual, so that is something. Just distributed by different companies. People on T forums elsewhere have said they felt different switching from Watson to west-ward, so that concerns me, but I dunno how that is possible if they are so similar.
Quote from: Mackan on January 19, 2015, 05:34:12 AM
It doesn't matter which T you are on if hair loss is in your genetics somewhere it's gonna happen. Testosterone is always testosterone no matter what brand. The difference is the oil "surrounding" the T ,testosterone converts in your body into DHT that's a stronger form of testosterone that is responsible for hair growth like beard and body hair but its also responsible for hair loss on your head. How much you're body converts the testosterone into DHT is also different from person to person and there's nothing to do about that either except take meds that prevent the DHT from reaching and affecting you're scalp.
thanks for reminding me it is all about the DHT anyways.
I clearly know nothing about pharmaceuticals and T types in general, so that does not help my paranoia about this
Watson Laboratories is now Actavis Pharmaceuticals. Whether it's just a change of name or a full buy-out by an entirely different company/team, is unclear. And West-Ward is now, perhaps temporarily, the only alternative for generic Depo-Testosterone (Cypionate) in the U.S. (or at least that seems to be the case in my area; every pharmacy here has only either West-Ward or brand-name $$$ Depo). It's the same formulary, just a different laboratory and packaging. If the formulary was not the same, they couldn't call it Cypionate, much less a generic for Depo:
Watson Testosterone Cypionate Insert (http://pi.actavis.com/data_stream.asp?product_group=1527&p=pi&language=E)
West-Ward Testosterone Cypionate Insert (http://west-ward.com/images/files/package/Testosterone%20Cypionate%20PI-web.pdf)
Look at the formulary. They are identical.
Otherwise, West-Ward launched their Cypionate in 2012 (http://west-ward.com/news.php?id=53). Here's the actual product page (http://west-ward.com/products.php?cid=147).
So, whether or not Actavis will continue to produce 'Watson' Cypionate remains to be seen. If they do, it will take them a few months to get enough production to start shipping it out (I would also have to think they will need to submit it for FDA approval 'again' due to the change of company – tack on another few months or more if so). They do still have it on their 'products' page, here (http://www.actavis.com/products/key-products/product-search?searchterm=testosterone%20cypionate). But it's of the Watson vials. I have no idea if that means they are planning to continue it eventually or not.
But yeah, that's what my latest script was filled for as well (no freaking way I am paying more for the brand-name, with the exact same formulary) but I'm still on my last Watson and will be for quite a while. Don't really think there's anything to worry about. It's real and I don't anticipate feeling any differently or seeing any alteration in my rate of changes. I'd be very surprised if that happened.
Anyway. There's been an awful lot of lawsuits over TRT in recent years (allegedly that it's directly to blame for the plaintiffs heart attacks and strokes; which is IMO baloney because every study of TRT and cardiovascular risk has been to the contrary. EDIT: some sources (http://truttmd.com/testosterone-cause-heart-attacks-response-jama/)). I wouldn't be surprised if that deluge of lawsuits wasn't directly to blame for this. Then again, the FDA was after Watson a while back (the reason for their last major, months-long shortages, in late 2012 to mid 2013 if I remember correctly)... could also have been a factor. FDA's claim was "quality control issues" (but my last two vials during the alleged 'issues' were perfectly fine...).
thanks Magnus...I feel much better just looking at the chemical formula pictures being identical, hah. I guess in my head I let myself think about it the wrong way instead of just looking at it objectively. I felt mad at the pharmacy too because it felt like they switched me out without asking, but it seems that they had to anyways, so I can't fault them for that.
I didn't know about the lawsuits with Watson. I am willing to rationalize away the heart attack/stroke issues in my head, but I would really like to see some kind of study done at some point that tracks FTM health in different age groups over time relative to how long they have been taking T.
I have a home blood pressure measure-y thing I track with, cause mine is high-ish, but not yet at the point I need meds for it. I hope vigilance in monitoring is enough to ward off concern.
On a side note, I really like getting blood tests a couple times a year, as it makes me think that if something is ever wrong unrelated to the T, it will be caught way before it would have been otherwise. So, unexpected perk.
Perfectly understandable, I initially wasn't thrilled either though mostly because this came with a cost increase. I think the Watson was down to $65-80 last time... this stuff's $105. Could be worse, I guess. At least it's not the atrocious $130-150 for Depo or Enanthate. Or even worse, we could be in the midst of another extensive and long-lasting shortage of T... my nightmare (finally got a spare vial though so I've got my @$$ covered for that likely future scenario. Going to cycle it out with the new one and repeat indefinitely). Honestly, they really have got to figure out what the problem is there because it really shouldn't happen. Ultimately, as long as there actually still is a relatively affordable T available, I'm happy. Really could be worse. Just imagine if West-Ward hadn't launched theirs...
Well, we really are no different from other guys on TRT once we've been on TRT for a while. Nearly every risk or benefit is the same for us and them. I don't believe there would be any variance in such a study, by and large. And fortunately, most studies do result in around a 50% reduction of mortality overall when compared to men that aren't on TRT (and most studies are conducted on older guys too so I think that really speaks volumes). I'm sure as long as you take care of yourself, you'll be alright.
And actually, my new Endo went into that a bit and I have to agree with his opinion. It is far less dangerous to be on exogenous T than it is to be on exogenous E, where clotting risks are concerned. I mean, even really low-dose E in the BCP's can cause your clotting factors to go haywire. I can't seem to find any case studies of that ever having happened to anybody on TRT while on an appropriate clinical dose. I really do have to think that most reported problems with T represent the bulk of abusers (I mean some of them take the whole damn vial at once... crazy; of course that's going to cause problems).
Well anyhow. Cholesterol truly is the primary culprit of heart disease. Only thing that's ever gotten mine controlled was a whole lot of olive oil (uncooked; Mediterranean kind of dishes). If that's out of control, you're guaranteed to run into heart problems eventually. Particularly if it's your triglycerides that are sky-high (mine have been, since quite a while before T). Though, the 'diet' necessary for that is kind of pricey (I mean, there's really no way to do it on less than $100 a week) so that's why I haven't really been able to deal with this in a couple years now. Hopefully I'll get it corrected before any serious damage is incurred. It is definitely not the fault of T though. It's my only remaining health problem carried over from other and thankfully former endocrine dysfunction. And actually, I feel that being overweight itself raises it more than anything else, and so does actively burning fat for that matter (my labs revealed that) so it might not be quite as bad as it appears. At least it's only 200, not 300+.
But then, in that particular area we Americans really do have the smelly end of the stick. Our majority of food options are horrendous for Cholesterol (and weight). I don't even really eat red meat for crying out loud. So much for that being the foremost cause of high Cholesterol. Nope, it sure isn't.