Because of this constant debate of "pass , no pass " why do you thing so many are willing to take their chances in a society not totally enlightened about people who need to transition. For me the decision is easy, because I have nothing else and when you have nothing you have freedom to do anything. I just ran into the absolute dead end where the only possible choice was to transition. " pass and not pass" concerns me because I'd like to be ignored for my looks , but it's not the over riding cause of my decision . Given my age and life experiences I have no choice, but I totally understand why the people are concerned about " passing" , but is passing really enough to stop one from becoming who they are. The civil rights movement is sadly an on going problem with victories along the way. With all the suffering of people trying to accomplish freedom the attempt to be free will never be abandoned by those needing their freedom. I'm just so curious as to why One would abandon freedom because of a fear of how some of the unenlightened of society view a persons need to feel the freedom to be who they are. Or why abandon yourself just because your not the prettiest girl or guy in your neighborhood. Disclaimer[ ( please try to understand , I'm just trying to learn not instigate), possible trigger ]
Because I would have killed myself had I not transitioned. Passing? It is fun to work on but not a requirement.
For me its a question of happiness and health.
I think that addressing what makes us unhappy in our lives allows us room to pursue the things that *do* make us happy.
That's very general but I think it applies to so many things, not just transitioning.
I also believe that health follows happiness. When we allow ourselves peace, we also allow ourselves to heal. I feel like years have been taken off me. Not so much physically, but I feel revitalised from within.
So why do it? If this is what a person needs to be their best and healthiest self - this is what they must do.
The choice for me was either to not pass, or to not live.
I'm still here, and more than 30' away I think I do pass, closer depending on the person's visual acuity. ;)
I do care a lot about passing when i think about maybe transitioning in the future, (but I'm not ready yet). I'm young, but even if I have to wait for a few more years, I don't think I'd have as much trouble as most other people when it comes to passing, so that keeps my mind at ease a little (besides i am pretty much helpless now). I think it's natural to want a little more, to look pretty, but i also think that my gender dysphoria will progress to a point, where i will happily take whatever i get. I don't want to say that it's either transition or nothing for me, but I can't and don't see myself living this way for the rest of my life. It worries me, wish it wasn't this way.
Passing is one of the transition fears.
It is highly person to person conceptions of what that means.
As i have said so many times before i came to understand it was one of the things that is not worth the effort to care about.
I've never stressed about passing. I'm looking forward to the day when I can fully pass. If, for whatever reason, that isn't able to happen, it doesn't change who I am. I've accepted the real me, I will not go back. Ever.
For me, it was real simple. I was ready to die. I couldn't keep trying any more. I was so depressed, especially in the last few months before my epiphany moment. It wasn't that I didn't want to live, it's that I couldn't live that way any more. It was eating me away little by little every day. Once I figured it out, that was that. All my feelings made sense and things started looking up. I would say it didn't happen overnight, but it didn't take long at all.
Now, almost a year later since that moment, and I'm better than ever. Life is wonderful. :)
<3
Quote from: mrs izzy on January 21, 2015, 10:54:38 PM
Passing is one of the transition fears.
It is highly person to person conceptions of what that means.
As i have said so many times before i came to understand it was one of the things that is not worth the effort to care about.
I can't agree harder. I'm exhausted from how long (about 1 and a half years) I obsessed about hiding my changing body from the world, going about as an androgynous guy. When I finally started full time presenting, I was still anxious, but I could finally relax since I was allowing myself to be me. I am so tired of hiding, I just can't do it anymore, unless you count half a day in boy-mode to visit my Grandma who paid for my college degree. :-\
While I get that people have their own process, there is a HUGE emphasis on passing, and I think it has something to do with our internalized transphobia. It's easier to hide that you are trans if people assume you're cisfemme, and you can be yourself. I think the biggest hurdle for transwomen to overcome is to see your reflection as female/feminine. But you'll have it made when you do.
Even if I won't be able to pass I must do this to be at peace with myself.
I was thinking about the OP's question and I was instantly reminded of an old Northern Territory ad campaign..
"Because you'll never, ever know, if you never, ever go.."
I went in to transition with no idea how it would end up. I think I've done OK. Not fantastic, but OK. Would I do it again knowing the result? Yep..
My other options were "go crazy" or "die". No brainer.
Quote from: Jill F on January 22, 2015, 01:13:42 AM
My other options were "go crazy" or "die". No brainer.
Mine were "be incredibly miserable" or "die".
Not much better.
In 2009 I jumped into the waters taking hormones cos it was UNBEARABLE to live a single day more as a 'man'. The amount of rejection I had to bear my entire life was a tremendous as a guy, so I had to revert to the proper looks to attract the correct category of people I wanted. I also jumped without even knowing if I'd ever be able to complete my transition cos at that starting point it was looking IMPOSSIBLE but look today after 5 years I finally completed my SRS. Some miraculous things happened on the way when you are really determined to have something so bad.
Stephanie, I apologize for being late to the party, but I hope my contribution is still helpful.
I know many trans women IRL who don't pass. None of them feel like they are "taking their chances." All of them report that there have been generally no issues with safety or intolerance, or no more than any other woman would have experienced.
1) Transition is just another word for nothing left to loose
2) Transition or die
3) Which pain is worse?
In my early 20's when I twice "experimented" with transitioning, the outcome was exactly as I expected, failure. A large part due to being large (6ft) at a time (late 70's early 80's) when not being able to be 100% stealth meant a (likely very short) life of ridicule. At 6ft tall with the average height for women my age being like 5'6", biggish boned, deep voice and already balding, I stood out. Most of my life untill then I had also stood out and got a lot of negative unwanted attention. I wasn't looking for any more.
So far I've been lucky, still stuck on #3, mostly. I feel no greater joy, no greater sense of being genuine then when I am out in the real world as the real me. Right now my situation requires me to be even less then the almost full-time life I was living. The pain of switching back and forth now often feels far worse then the days of the daily jump.
Being female is a large part of my identity. However it is not the only part. I spent decades suppressing it, and a few years now nurturing it. Today I am almost a fully integrated person. If it weren't for the fear of the possible negative outcomes that would greatly impact the other major parts of my sense of self I would transition tomorrow.
Whose definition of passing? I love myself now and feel great so what more is there to life? My choices were die or transition so there was no clause for passing. :)
For me, I had to start transitioning before I'm passable. It was getting to the point where it was starting to cause mental damage. I couldn't hold it in any longer. I had to start wearing lady clothing and makeup, slowly incorporating them so no one would question what I do and think it was just who I am. It's just a matter of time before I can look passable.
Interesting question!
I sorta go back and forth about how important passing is to me. I think I will be content if I reach a point where I blend for the most part---close enough that people aren't clocking me in public very often. But I'm not really after stealth, and I don't plan to hide that I'm trans. I'd rather it not come up much, because honestly, it shouldn't matter.
I'm willing to transition without knowing that I'll pass for a few reasons. The cheap one is that I think I will be able to pass reasonably without too much effort, as I don't have an especially masculine body or facial structure. So that lessens my worry. But even if I don't pass, I know that I will feel better as myself. It'd be nice if people saw me as just another girl, but that's not critical to my happiness. I'm already pretty socially inactive (and I was even before the kids caused that), so it's not like staying in on Friday and Saturday nights would be a change.
But I think the main thing is that my goal isn't to pass, it's to be who I am. Cis women don't automatically get to be stunningly beautiful just because they have two X's, the majority probably wish they could change their appearance. It's sad, but society is not cruel only to trans women, it's cruel to women, period.
Passing is important to me. I don't think I'd be able to transition if I couldn't pass to some degree. The most depressing days for me are when I look a lot like a man, which is usually a day or two before electrolysis when I have to let the facial hair grow out. When I get to shave afterwards it feels extremely liberating.
I do "get" why some ladies don't care about passing though. It's all about being yourself and they want to be themselves. I don't judge them. They're free to be who they are. I know one girl (not a friend, just someone I know, and she's kinda famous in a not so good way in the trans community) who doesn't pass at all, as in doesn't even bother to try. She might shave her face and that's about it. No boobs or nothing, just wears dresses and women's clothing in public. She seems happy. She even insists she's a cis girl but everyone knows otherwise. Whatever, it's her life not mine. I don't know how I'd deal with that. I would freak out and cry going out in public looking like that.
Delusion? I don't know why anyone would be willing to go through the rest of their life being treated like they are less than human.
Quote from: jeni on January 22, 2015, 09:27:57 AM
Interesting question!
I sorta go back and forth about how important passing is to me. I think I will be content if I reach a point where I blend for the most part---close enough that people aren't clocking me in public very often. But I'm not really after stealth, and I don't plan to hide that I'm trans. I'd rather it not come up much, because honestly, it shouldn't matter.
I'm willing to transition without knowing that I'll pass for a few reasons. The cheap one is that I think I will be able to pass reasonably without too much effort, as I don't have an especially masculine body or facial structure. So that lessens my worry. But even if I don't pass, I know that I will feel better as myself. It'd be nice if people saw me as just another girl, but that's not critical to my happiness. I'm already pretty socially inactive (and I was even before the kids caused that), so it's not like staying in on Friday and Saturday nights would be a change.
But I think the main thing is that my goal isn't to pass, it's to be who I am. Cis women don't automatically get to be stunningly beautiful just because they have two X's, the majority probably wish they could change their appearance. It's sad, but society is not cruel only to trans women, it's cruel to women, period.
I agree with Jeni almost word for word. Although transitioning for me is uncertain both in terms of when I'll do it as well as if I'll ever do it (for a lot of other reasons), I think passing is not a very big concern affecting that decision. At my current mental state, I am not facing the 'transition or die' or 'transition or go crazy' options, but I don't know how bad it may get in future.
In any case, I don't think I can just get rid of all traces of my life so far, and I may not even want to, so going 100% stealth if I transition is not an option. So as long as I find a place which does not discriminate against trans folk, that should be good enough for me, whether I pass or not. Although being able to blend in most of the time will obviously help in day-to-day interactions.
Quote from: jeni on January 22, 2015, 09:27:57 AM
Interesting question!
I sorta go back and forth about how important passing is to me. I think I will be content if I reach a point where I blend for the most part---close enough that people aren't clocking me in public very often. But I'm not really after stealth, and I don't plan to hide that I'm trans. I'd rather it not come up much, because honestly, it shouldn't matter.
I'm willing to transition without knowing that I'll pass for a few reasons. The cheap one is that I think I will be able to pass reasonably without too much effort, as I don't have an especially masculine body or facial structure. So that lessens my worry. But even if I don't pass, I know that I will feel better as myself. It'd be nice if people saw me as just another girl, but that's not critical to my happiness. I'm already pretty socially inactive (and I was even before the kids caused that), so it's not like staying in on Friday and Saturday nights would be a change.
But I think the main thing is that my goal isn't to pass, it's to be who I am. Cis women don't automatically get to be stunningly beautiful just because they have two X's, the majority probably wish they could change their appearance. It's sad, but society is not cruel only to trans women, it's cruel to women, period.
I kind of agree with this but I look at it from a different angle.
Passing isn't just visual. Well, a lot of it is, but two things that I read stood out to me:
1. People gender you from the neck up. This means your face, head and facial hair (including eyebrows) and voice are critical to passing. They can even override certain other markers.
2. It's the clothes that make the man, but the voice that makes the woman. This is why I'm emphasizing on my voice. I really want to do Yeson, but I'm practicing with FYFV and may even get a few lessons from a voice coach.
With this in mind it is not hard to pass if you put on a somewhat feminine appearance with little to no facial hair and have a good, feminine voice. The rest kind of gets glossed over by most people.
But when you said this:
"I think I will be able to pass reasonably without too much effort,"
This is exactly how I feel which is why I'm willing to take a chance on transition without a guarantee of passing.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 22, 2015, 10:08:27 AM
Delusion? I don't know why anyone would be willing to go through the rest of their life being treated like they are less than human.
Not quite sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying people who transition with passing are delusional? I really hope that's not the point you're trying to make.
First of I am at the pre hrt and really not 100% accepted of self yet I can see where I could potentially go.
Transition or not and be cantankerous hermit or worse crazy/dead.
What I see from posts in general is the reason most want to transition is not truly to pass on the outside but that the inside the heart and soul outweighs what other may perceive. That being said I do worry in that I am 6 ft not small by any stretch of the imagination and of course I would love to be at least semi passable well totally save the 6 ft bulky type. Why Is the passing so important is not so much I want to be a beauty queen but rather more to do with blending in not being harassed and ridiculed. I can see that will happen during transition somewhere but at least as a kid I did learn to deal with that before being bullied for beats me why reason other then small and didn't fight back.
In short the transition is done for what I think the reason is is this to present yourself as the person you feel you are and hopefully that presentation is passable but the real reason behind it is the internal struggle to show your true self with whatever limitations arise. With that the transition itself is a hurdle that knocks down part of that struggle at least in the physical sense as for the mental well that goes along with the journey. Another aspect I think plays one of the most important roles is our brains in that I truly feel there is such a thing as male female or blend there of brained to which transgender happen to be stuck with the wrong hormones to brain mix if you will which add the body part in and well ya get the struggle.
The brain heart and soul are always more important then the body. After all we could lose a limb but losing our mind well then there is no point left in the body. I truly hope we all ascend to our given souls appearance. I can see if that was the case some people cis or trans if their true soul showed physically they may not look so pleasant but I think most trans are trying to be honest with themselves and others unlike some that are dishonest $@$@'s in the world. But the priority is the mind over the body.
Since I have not really done much I am just going by what others have read and my perceptions I could be off but think I might be on the right mindset.
Disclaimer I am not judging anyone at all nor their choices just feel the mind heart and soul is priority then the body aspect follows with it.
Well you transition for yourself, not to please others. If you don't NEED to do it then i would say you should really do some soul searching.
That said, as I consider hrt and transition I do obsess over the idea of passing. It does of course make life easier. You do not get the stares or the potential discrimination that can be a very real issue depending on your situation or location. In my case, I have young children and the idea of navigating play dates and school functions as a non passing trans woman freaks me out. It would be potentially difficult not only for me but for my children. I guess a lot of it depends on your life stage, your situation and your perspective.
Quote from: kelly_aus on January 22, 2015, 01:10:42 AM
I was thinking about the OP's question and I was instantly reminded of an old Northern Territory ad campaign..
"Because you'll never, ever know, if you never, ever go.."
Kelly that is priceless. I am partial to quips, puns and bumper stickers in a keep it simple stupid (kiss) sort of way. One of my favs is a similar bumper sticker slogan from the 60's; "Don't Die Wondering"
I don't believe anyone can know how this feels without living it. I tried to be informed but was terribly naive about so much of the real life experience. Being honestly me is as close to a transition goal as I have.
Transition could be a "last chance" at happiness for some?
The other important dictum for me is that transition was no longer really a choice. My best efforts to deny and repress just cost time that could have been productively transitional.
Because the alternative is less bearable.
:police:
Let us be very careful about referring to the choices people make.
I will not allow anyone to invalidate any ones decisions, looks, presentation or feelings.
Before you post, try thinking about how others may feel about your comment!
This for me really has to do more with who I 'was' and how that has influenced who I 'am', not so much as the overall me, but that daily unfolding of the new me. These personal characterics are directly due to how I grew up and evolved as a person. I was probably 95% outside the influence of society, very geographically isolated in a rural community with almost no neighbors, socially isolated because I was the only native american in my school and suffered the discrimminations of the time period. At a 'very' young age I had a needle in my arm which isolated me even more, and then a rather quick decent into an 100% isolation, and this continued for the next 33 years.
What this resulted in was an almost complete insulation from societal mores (+ and -). I escaped the detrimental things like wanting and needing to be like others and the result of not getting this need filled turning into envy. My feelings of completeness did not come from any outside source, it was from (this did not happen until my years of sobriety) my own individual personal work. What this has allowed is a rather quick progression towards 'going full time' even though I know I do not pass in reality. In a period of six months I've gone from 100% male mode to only one step from 100% female presenting, this last being the wearing of skirts/dress 'everywhere' I go. This last step will take place very soon.
So these ingredients has allowed the old to blossom into an asset. Dani
Passing is in the Eye of the person. What i have learned some do want to pass some don't seem to worry about it. But for the most i get the impression that we are willing to roll the dice and take the gamble to transition as the other choice is to live as we are and well we would not be here if we could just do that. As someone that is Pre everything. Passing is high up on my level. I know i will never be 100 passable but I like to go out with out being clocked around every other corner. For the simple fact i want to enjoy what life i have less without having to explain or defend myself unless i choose to. I don't think everyone is bound to transition. Some will not make it that far and some will. and those that do transition some will pass and some will not.. But no matter what as long as you are doing what makes you happy and it does not hurt anyone else it should not matter. All that matters is are you more happy now then where you were in the past. So each to their own. If you pass great if you don't and you are happy with it Great and if you don't pass and you want to then don't give up. As long as you keep trying you can get there. If you give up trying you never will.
Vicky
MtF
There was a point where I wondered if I'd never pass and I had to ask myself if I'd continue with HRT and stuff. My answer ended up being "yes" because despite how difficult not passing was, chemically I just felt much better with hormones.
Quote from: birkin on January 22, 2015, 02:31:02 PM
There was a point where I wondered if I'd never pass and I had to ask myself if I'd continue with HRT and stuff. My answer ended up being "yes" because despite how difficult not passing was, chemically I just felt much better with hormones.
So true. Two years ago yesterday was my first taste of estrogen. I was skeptical that it would do any good, and part of me hoped it wouldn't do anything or even make things worse, proving to me once and for all that I wasn't actually transitioning material so I could just get on with my miserable life as a guy.
Not only did estrogen make me feel better, it fixed the underlying problems that made me dependent on all sorts of chemicals. Within a few months, I was able to get off of everything. It's like "Wow, this is what normal is like!" or "Wow, so this is what happiness actually is!"
I knew I'd have to take it for the rest of my life, and that was that. As a bonus, losing the charade of acting like a guy every day was like Atlas dropkicking the world. I didn't know if I'd pass well closer to sooner or later, but that didn't matter to me. I went full time two months later anyway.
Quote from: Jill F on January 22, 2015, 02:43:57 PM
So true. Two years ago yesterday was my first taste of estrogen. I was skeptical that it would do any good, and part of me hoped it wouldn't do anything or even make things worse, proving to me once and for all that I wasn't actually transitioning material so I could just get on with my miserable life as a guy.
Not only did estrogen make me feel better, it fixed the underlying problems that made me dependent on all sorts of chemicals. Within a few months, I was able to get off of everything. It's like "Wow, this is what normal is like!" or "Wow, so this is what happiness actually is!"
I knew I'd have to take it for the rest of my life, and that was that. As a bonus, losing the charade of acting like a guy every day was like Atlas dropkicking the world. I didn't know if I'd pass well closer to sooner or later, but that didn't matter to me. I went full time two months later anyway.
ditto
sometimes I wonder if I'm going to be busted by the cops because the estrogen feels so good.
The main reason to transition is to be accepted and live in society as your true gender identity.
The cherry on top is passing / blending as cis.
Either way, you still get to enjoy a tasty dessert.
Blueberry cheesecake , cherries and whip and goes to the right places
I wish I could experience some of the estrogen goodness, euphoria, whatever it is but whilst's it may have leveled my mood some it hasn't really improved it. I still feel hollow, angry, and depressed most of the time.
Quote from: Wynternight on January 22, 2015, 03:57:06 PM
I wish I could experience some of the estrogen goodness, euphoria, whatever it is but whilst's it may have leveled my mood some it hasn't really improved it. I still feel hollow, angry, and depressed most of the time.
The sturm und drang went away completely after my orchi. Are your T levels elevated?
Hugs,
Jill
Quote from: Wynternight on January 22, 2015, 03:57:06 PM
I wish I could experience some of the estrogen goodness, euphoria, whatever it is but whilst's it may have leveled my mood some it hasn't really improved it. I still feel hollow, angry, and depressed most of the time.
That is really terrible. I am so sorry that HRT did not improve your mood. Perhaps there are other issues involved besides GD.
Quote from: Jill F on January 22, 2015, 04:00:31 PM
The sturm und drang went away completely after my orchi. Are your T levels elevated?
Hugs,
Jill
22 at last check. The sturm und drang has never gone away.
I was me, fulltime and authentically for 5 years till I started HRT..... This was never about 'passing' it was about being me... If I wanted to 'pass' I'd be an actress ;)
so very interesting, although my path from the gates of hell where i left some guy I used to know behind has had many challanges, my life today is better in so many ways, even if I could pass I do not how it would be better. my choice to change my life and allow myself to live was not at all barred by the thoughts that maybe someday I would pass,
Quote from: stephaniec on January 22, 2015, 02:59:41 PM
sometimes I wonder if I'm going to be busted by the cops because the estrogen feels so good.
Every now and then I feel like my ability to drive well is evaporating because of HRT [emoji6]
Well, that and applying makeup while driving...
I think this image answers quite adequately..
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs18.postimg.org%2Fj6ssknnat%2Ftmp_20412_IMG_23474703437084_1735858693.jpg&hash=cba5366d1662a9a59c502c24d72793eb4c3634d1) (http://postimg.org/image/j6ssknnat/)
Obfuskatie: I honestly find that a bit offensive.... Almost kicked a friend out with the car in motion the other day for saying "Since you started hormones you drive like a woman..." .... .... "You hit like a woman too!" Okay it is funny in a way but still typical mysogynyst mentality.....
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Quote from: bluebirdx88 on January 24, 2015, 07:30:14 AM
I think this image answers quite adequately..
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs18.postimg.org%2Fj6ssknnat%2Ftmp_20412_IMG_23474703437084_1735858693.jpg&hash=cba5366d1662a9a59c502c24d72793eb4c3634d1) (http://postimg.org/image/j6ssknnat/)
Obfuskatie: I honestly find that a bit offensive.... Almost kicked a friend out with the car in motion the other day for saying "Since you started hormones you drive like a woman..." .... .... "You hit like a woman too!" Okay it is funny in a way but still typical mysogynyst mentality.....
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I'm sorry for offending you or anyone else. [emoji53] It was not my intent.
Welcome to being a woman though. You know you're there when you start experiencing discrimination. And typical misogynistic mentality would be my saying there was something wrong with my being allowed to drive. Mocking driving and force behind punches is pretty mild. Get ready for glass ceilings and people assuming you can't do things.
In reality I'm pretty careful and have a great driving record, although I do have a bad habit of multitasking. And 3 out of my 5 daily prescriptions warn, may impair driving or operating heavy machinery. Or something close to that.
Quote from: Obfuskatie on January 24, 2015, 08:26:36 AM
I'm sorry for offending you or anyone else. [emoji53] It was not my intent.
Welcome to being a woman though. You know you're there when you start experiencing discrimination. And typical misogynistic mentality would be my saying there was something wrong with my being allowed to drive. Mocking driving and force behind punches is pretty mild. Get ready for glass ceilings and people assuming you can't do things.
In reality I'm pretty careful and have a great driving record, although I do have a bad habit of multitasking. And 3 out of my 5 daily prescriptions warn, may impair driving or operating heavy machinery. Or something close to that.
Honestly.... Having being living as me for 5 years before HRT and 5 months and a bit since too... Living in a country that is run by the Opus Dei pretty much.... I'm quite accustomed to facing it... And far worse... Just that I didnt expect that kinda generalizations here... I wasnt implying you were a mysogynyst, just the statement.. I'm sorry.
PS:: Yeah they say all kinda things on most meds.... Never experienced any to be honest...
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The answer to the thread questions is something that I think varies with the individual.
My answer is this.
I live in an area where I would go out safely however I please. If you want to walk around Seattle with a full beard while in a tutu, only the tourists would bat an eye. My desire/need to pass isn't for how other people feel. It's about who I am and who I want to be. I don't want to be seen as trans. I want to be seen as a woman. I want to feel I am a woman and not "on the way". If I can still see any guy in the mirror when I look then I'm not feeling that. I know this will keep me back but that is okay for me as I work to get closer.
I'm not sure if I will even achieve this so at some point in the future, my viewpoint may change but this is my mind today.
I had too the alternative was rather bleak. I am 56 6ft tall 225lbs pre HRT, passing is a hit miss thing. However my life has improved in so many ways in the last couple of years, I have lost 160lbs I am able to feel happy, something that has eluded me for decades. Others have noticed more than the way I dress has changed, they sense that I am much happier and more social than I was before. Passing would be nice but the acceptance of the people I work with, my family, and my own self acceptance is more important for my well being.
For me, transitioning is about being true to myself, for as long as I pretended to be male I knew nothing but pain and suffering. Passing, by contrast, seems to be more about how one is seen by others. Even if I can never be fully passable, just knowing that my appearance has feminized gives me something to be proud of, that I finally escaped the oppression of testosterone and started receiving the hormones that my body has been craving all these years. Of course I do want to pass, especially in my own eyes. I want to look in the mirror and see a woman, not a man, and to that extent I have already made some progress, though I am not fully there. However, the emotional and physical changes associated with feminization are so rewarding that when people gender me male, I can now shrug it off rather than want to die over it.
Quote from: bluebirdx88 on January 24, 2015, 08:33:27 AM
PS:: Yeah they say all kinda things on most meds.... Never experienced any to be honest...
My spiro and my antidepressant both say this. On both, the first few days I took them it would have been a bad idea to jump right in the car and drive, just due to a sort of spaciness. That didn't last long after the dose, and for the antidepressant went away entirely after about a week and for the spiro is getting rapidly less intense so I think it's going to go away too. So I think it's good to follow the instructions and hold off on the heavy machinery until you know how you react.
I don't transition for many reason. (the main one) passing, I just don't want to look like a man pretending to be a girl, I'd rather just stay looking like a man, I just don't think the ridicule is worth the effort. Another reason is the cost of transitioning. it ain't cheap, and having a job that pays a little more than minimum wage won't be able to cover anything whether it be surgery or hrt.. I'm 22, no college yet, no good job. From what I've heard the older you get the harder it will be for you which again goes back to reason 1. It's a never ending cycle for me. I've gotten use to the idea that I may never be able to transition and I've gotten comfortable being a man.
Oh wow, about "passing"...
May I recommend a little experiment?
I suggest that anyone worried about passing go to these three places and wander around, looking at women. ALL of the women. Older, younger, heavier, thinner, tall, short. All of them. Look at those faces, hairlines in particular too especially of older women, etc.
- Your local mall
- Your local grocery store
- A busy movie theater
Just go. And look at the women there. I've seen some really "male" looking women before who were trans. And I will make the comment that, in some ways, the older we get, the easier transitioning might be for some of us.
I place the following things as critical to passing.
- Facial hair removal. This is huge. Getting rid of that shadow is an immediate visual cue that tells the observer "male".
- Voice. Yes, deal with that voice, ladies. Training, surgery, whatever it takes, you need to feminize your voice. And it can still be a "low" female voice but be clearly feminine.
- Face. This is where FFS comes in and there are enough excellent FFS surgeons on the planet that I simply cannot believe that someone can't find the right surgeon for their face.
- Body shape and weight. Lose the man gut.
Regarding FFS, here's LizMarie's "guideline" about FFS. The majority of transwomen do not really need FFS to pass but at the same time, almost every transwoman will benefit from FFS.
I've seen lots and lots of before and after FFS photos, and frankly, from the photos, most of those women appear to pass before. Maybe not stunningly or beautifully, but they often pass. Yet at the same time, doing FFS can remove small tell-tale issues that not only might bring external attention but that
might cause personal self-doubt about your own presentation. And as I've found myself, over and over, it's when I've doubted myself that I've gotten clocked.
So I am an advocate for FFS if you think you want it, because I think it's good for you as well as those looking at you. Your own sense of self-confidence is critical to you accepting yourself, which is critical to others accepting you.
As to Stephanie's original question, I can only answer for myself. I was caught planning my suicide in such a way as to make it look like an accident and urged by that very dear friend to get help. I was at the edge of the precipice and turned back. And when I turned back there were just two paths. One path led back to the precipice. The other path, transitioning, led away to a new life. I chose the path of transitioning because I decided I wanted to live, not die.
Quote from: Jennygirl on January 22, 2015, 03:15:06 PM
The main reason to transition is to be accepted and live in society as your true gender identity.
...
Yes!
I've found that people can accept you, and you can feel accepted, even if you aren't 100% passable.
I think attitude has a lot to do with it. >:-)
That said, I was very fearful of not passing, and was unable to start transitioning until I convinced myself that I would look "OK" when it was all over...
It's totally understandable from all points of view whether be from fear of discrimination, fear of physical harm or even death or just wanting to fit in normally or finding a relationship with someone. I know for myself the incredible life long pain of body mind misalignment For myself I've lived with this way too long, but then again I'm at a stage in my life where I have absolutely nothing to lose. I here all these stories on Susan's of families set in turmoil , friendships ,families torn apart and the need to transition is so powerful. I truly believe it's just a natural physical necessity for the brain and body to conform to it's natural state. If I would of know the process of transitioning at 18 years old , there is no doubt what so ever that I wouldn't of tried it out. My brain has been twisted 180 degrees from my body since I was 4 and like everyone knows it's not fun to be twisted 180 degrees.
more than your knickers can get in a twist :D Didn't Chubby Checkers have a great dance for that when we were kids? How bout those twisted sisters?
;D
Quote from: Tessa James on January 30, 2015, 02:38:00 PM
more than your knickers can get in a twist :D Didn't Chubby Checkers have a great dance for that when we were kids? How bout those twisted sisters?
;D
use to play a game as a kid with a pocket knife and a lawn
Because it's much better to be happy on the inside but miserable on the outside, than happy on the outside but miserable on the inside.
And, well, even if one doesn't pass, just having the right skin texture, the right secondary sexual characteristics, hormones that feel right, a sex-drive that feels right, emotions that feel right, and being able to dress and act exactly as you've always wanted, is worth it. External distress, and being teased and ostracized HURTS. But nothing is worse than that feeling that your body and your own mind are defective, and feeling trapped in them.
Quote from: Obfuskatie on January 22, 2015, 07:07:52 PM
Every now and then I feel like my ability to drive well is evaporating because of HRT [emoji6]
Well, that and applying makeup while driving...
:laugh:
True Story: when I changed my gender at my auto insurance company, they increased my premium; :'(
Quote from: missymay on January 30, 2015, 03:19:59 PM
:laugh:
True Story: when I changed my gender at my auto insurance company, they increased my premium; :'(
...
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at that...
I think it would be very hard for me to transition without passing. I fear ridicule, being murdered or sexually abused and if my appearance was viewed as gender contradictory I worry that would bring much negative attention my way. For me it all seems to be a sort of damned if I do damned if I don't thing, because I either sit here presenting as male which most often feels uncomfortable, or I go full time which seems like it would be uncomfortable for the reasons I cited. However, I do know I am speaking largely from ignorance because I don't know how it feels to transition while not being passable - and maybe that would be the best feeling in the world one of liberation. I'm just scared to jump, and not really certain of the gender issues I face anyway. Either way I just really fear abuse, physical and mental, and the thought of someone looking at me and saying "that's really a man" or of someone following me to kill or beat me for being what they consider "gay" just scares me to nothingness.
If I ever do get hormones, I would probably prefer to just stay more or less presenting as male until they worked some magic then once I looked a bit more feminine I would venture out into the world that way. I really cannot express enough in words how fearful I am of assault and harassment, and reading up on the amount of that transgirls face scares me even more.
So weak. Wish I had the strength of some of you folks.
Sorry , couldn't resist
www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8_xkuGbPhY
Quote from: Wynternight on January 30, 2015, 03:27:57 PM
...
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at that...
I vote laugh [emoji23]
Sent from Katie's iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: missymay on January 30, 2015, 03:36:30 PM
You only weigh 65 lbs. ? You are a tiny dancer...
I used to weigh over 380 lbs, I have not had gastric bypass surgery or anything like that. Was able to lose it on my own as result of accepting myself, and living as who I am. Passing all the time would be nice, but once you get to the point you truly accept yourself for who you are its not your highest priority. Its just too bad it takes many of us to some dark places that some don't make it out of to reach that point.
Congratulations on your weight loss :)
Sorry for the smart remark
I often feel like many trans* people swap one pretend gender role for another pretend gender role. Many seem to be more concerned with putting on a performance than with being real.
I wish we could get to a point where the thing that matters most to us is being true to your truest, best self. And where no one would be harmed (not mentally, emotionally, or physically) for being mainly concerned about just being themselves.
I suspect that if that day ever comes, passing will seem a lot less important because the sanctions for failure to pass will be removed.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 30, 2015, 11:06:54 PM
I often feel like many trans* people swap one pretend gender role for another pretend gender role. Many seem to be more concerned with putting on a performance than with being real.
I wish we could get to a point where the thing that matters most to us is being true to your truest, best self. And where no one would be harmed (not mentally, emotionally, or physically) for being mainly concerned about just being themselves.
I suspect that if that day ever comes, passing will seem a lot less important because the sanctions for failure to pass will be removed.
ditto
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 30, 2015, 11:06:54 PM
I often feel like many trans* people swap one pretend gender role for another pretend gender role. Many seem to be more concerned with putting on a performance than with being real.
I wish we could get to a point where the thing that matters most to us is being true to your truest, best self. And where no one would be harmed (not mentally, emotionally, or physically) for being mainly concerned about just being themselves.
I suspect that if that day ever comes, passing will seem a lot less important because the sanctions for failure to pass will be removed.
Here is my take on this question and I will apologize in advance if some might somehow find how I see this objectionable or somehow hurtful. It is not intended to be.
I agree with 'The Phoenix' that "...if that day ever comes....where no one would be harmed (not mentally, emotionally, or physically) for being mainly concerned about just being, themselves....passing will seem a lot less important because the sanctions for failure to pass will be removed".
Unfortunately that day has not yet come although it could argued that those 'sanctions' are significantly less harsh or apparent than they were 40 or even 20 years ago in certain parts of certain countries.
Nevertheless that not withstanding, the reality continues to be that unless one does in fact "pass" as their chosen or desired gender, they will be viewed by the majority of society as something "other than" that chosen gender or sex. I guess that is the reality that those who do not 'pass" must accept. They must be prepared to accept that reality. If they do, as many on these boards seem to have done, and that reality appears better than their existing reality, (living/existing as the wrong gender), then "transition" would appear to be the better option.
Quote from: missymay on January 30, 2015, 10:50:19 PM
Congratations on your weight loss :)
Sorry for the smart remark
No offense taken, and thank you.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 30, 2015, 11:06:54 PM
I wish we could get to a point where the thing that matters most to us is being true to your truest, best self. And where no one would be harmed (not mentally, emotionally, or physically) for being mainly concerned about just being themselves.
Can I invite you to look at this differently?
There is no one way to be socially human, right? For some, and I believe you're one of them, what people think of them and how they fit in means very little. Their relationship with themselves is the most important motivator for them. For such people, this is would be an ideal place to get to.
But not everyone is like that.
There are people, for whatever reason, who center themselves on relationships with other people. This isn't a BAD way to be, just a different one. For such people, defining how they connect with the people around them is as important, or more, than the way they connect to themselves. For some such people, what you suggest would be contrary to their nature. Being true to themselves MEANS centering on the way they present and interact with others.
Does that make any sense?
Quote from: bluebirdx88 on January 22, 2015, 05:26:55 PM
I was me, fulltime and authentically for 5 years till I started HRT..... This was never about 'passing' it was about being me... If I wanted to 'pass' I'd be an actress ;)
I think you would make a great actress *as well*, gorgeous one x.
When I started, I didn't think about if I passed or not. What I knew, is that I live in Boulder, CO, which has always been very LGBT friendly town. And I knew that the people I work with would be cool with it, no matter what.
I think, they chance it because they don't care what others think. They just want to live their life's, and just get it over with.
To Suzifommd nice approach to a different view and yes I agree with ya.
To The Pheonix not trying to gang up on ya here but after reading both I have come up with the following.
For importance of passing in a way that feels true to the person that is trying or is passing is that they not always act out one gender or another but rather the point of the transition is to portray yourself to you and others what you feel is as close to your true self that can be portrayed. Of course when thing get more intimate then your true self is really shown by your actions but to get to that point the other person first sees your physical form before your heart/spiritual/mental form therefor yes passing is important perhaps the outward projection is more important to some then others but that doesn't make either direction less important.
I admit I may never pass that well being 6 ft and not built small but from my perspective I have to try and in doing so maybe I will or the very least I hope I can show others my true self more so without saying anything but just being me or at least a part of me. Sorry to early on this road to make any experienced judgements just how I can think this might go. Of course I also worry about potential abuse due to looking 1/2 male 1/2 female before I can get to a point of hopefully passing to be well close enough to be female to not be noticed aka passing.
Basically people tend to judge a book by its cover before they read what is on the inside. For some they don't care so much about the cover but what the book is about yet we always see that cover first. For some true beauty shines with their actions whether they look pretty or not so but it is of course sad that if we don't know that person we judge by sight before the heart or brain but that is reality.
We are all different and perceive the world differently. As a proven example of this is the idea of seeing color one can say the color of dot on the wall is pink or maybe purple or maybe its fuschia they could all be right just a matter of one perspective of the color and what they were taught and or learned along the way. Its the subtle things and life that are variably perceived if that makes any sense with no right nor wrong kind of like the idea of black and white but what about the greys:)
Sorry tend to ramble hard to but some things to words:)
I personnally don't mind about passing or not. In fact, I don't care about showing as a woman, man or whatever. I quite enjoy playing the "male" role - it's pretty likely I'll still dress as male from time to time just for pleasure after transitionning. If I were not to pass, I'd just wear male clothing for the rest of my life. I don't really care.
To me transitionning has pretty much nothing to do with the gender I want to live in, but more with the body I have to live with. I don't especially hate my body, but I never considered it as my own. There's something about self-image here, but also about physical feeling I guess.
Here again it's just my own story and point of vue.
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 31, 2015, 04:56:28 AM
Can I invite you to look at this differently?
There is no one way to be socially human, right? For some, and I believe you're one of them, what people think of them and how they fit in means very little. Their relationship with themselves is the most important motivator for them. For such people, this is would be an ideal place to get to.
But not everyone is like that.
There are people, for whatever reason, who center themselves on relationships with other people. This isn't a BAD way to be, just a different one. For such people, defining how they connect with the people around them is as important, or more, than the way they connect to themselves. For some such people, what you suggest would be contrary to their nature. Being true to themselves MEANS centering on the way they present and interact with others.
Does that make any sense?
We are all social creatures. The reason we are here in this forum is to develop a sense of community and talk to like-minded individuals. Help those who need it, ask for help, or just learn more information. No transperson is an island.
I like now being able to blend in with people easily. In the past, I've been singled out and harassed, bullied, kicked, punched, raped, spat on and cursed at for not blending in. "Passing" let's me be feminine without triggering negative responses from others. Not everyone gets a hardon for bigotry, but I don't generally trust people, not until I get to know them.
In the end it comes down to a sad game of Would you rather?:
Would you rather be miserable with GID or transition and risk offending a violent bigot sometime down the road?
Would you rather; hide yourself away in baggy clothing, gaining weight, or secluding yourself, or face discrimination by letting people see the real you? Having real relationships that aren't built on compounded secrets, omissions and lies.
Would you rather trust the people you love and need in your life, or start over from scratch, post SRS, so none will know you from your former life nor your trans status?
Would you rather tackle transitioning alone, or with the help of others who may judge you?
I could go on and on and on and on.
For me, I got to the point where my choices were between probable suicide or getting help and transitioning. Trust is still hard for me, after quite a few people broke it throughout my life. But I'm lucky that many of my friends today and all my immediate family are very supportive. And I'm slowly rebuilding a healthy life, career and the beginnings of a social life.
There a few people in my life whose opinions matter greatly to me, and I define myself as their daughter, sister, or friend. My social support network is the only reason I'm here today. And to be perfectly honest, my relationship with myself has been dysfunctional at best...[emoji53]
Sent from Katie's iPad using Tapatalk
Dunno...just a thought,but I was worried about how I would be perceived by the public,but really,how much do you look around at people?i only notice those who dress to stand out,loud clothes etc.
When I knew I would be going out of town I'd wear a pair of mini shorts and a v neck low tee. I'd worry about the thoughts of other drivers,then I had to rethink...I'm not looking at them or what they're wearing,let alone see below a particular point of their car they probably aren't looking at me.
I now look down and notice my chest protruding more than an inch and a half,but even my close friends who don't know yet haven't noticed.then again looking in the window side on it appears not much different.
It made me more relaxed,less self conscious,and less concerned that people are staring.
Been holding back, trying to consider all reasons, there are so many...
- Confident; The ability to do something regardless of outcome, sometimes over confident people are seemingly flippant
- Blasé; The ability to do something even knowing it may cause grief elsewhere, often these may be overly confident people
- Desperate; They simply cannot cope with remaining as they are, often irrational and agitated
To label but a few... the first two are pretty obvious, worked with these sort of people most of my life in IT :laugh: and I really admire these types, even tried to emulate, but can't :-\. However the last gets somewhat trickier, the psychology of people and their disposition play here. I must honestly admit I am not sure I have been desperate to the point to throw caution to the wind, but maybe I just hide my feelings form others and myself?
In all honesty I would want to be sure I could "more or less" pass first, certainly would want to do the primary surgeries needed to give me the confidence before F/T, because I am a bit of a perfectionist, want to fit in, be part of the group, want to be wanted (however I know that may not come to fruition, will need to modify some there :laugh:)
Agreeing with Katie (Obfuskatie)... we are social animals and enjoy being "included" or accepted amongst others... and people do not enjoy being singled out; everyone is so different (obviously) their needs, comfort levels, sociability etc... that's what make us human 8)
Not sure if my ramblings make sense, often struggle in trying to be concise???
L Katy
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 31, 2015, 04:56:28 AM
Can I invite you to look at this differently?
There is no one way to be socially human, right? For some, and I believe you're one of them, what people think of them and how they fit in means very little. Their relationship with themselves is the most important motivator for them. For such people, this is would be an ideal place to get to.
But not everyone is like that.
There are people, for whatever reason, who center themselves on relationships with other people. This isn't a BAD way to be, just a different one. For such people, defining how they connect with the people around them is as important, or more, than the way they connect to themselves. For some such people, what you suggest would be contrary to their nature. Being true to themselves MEANS centering on the way they present and interact with others.
Does that make any sense?
Thank you, Suzi, for some food for thought.
But isn't it really just another way of saying that people are subject to sanction for failing to present in a way that conforms to other peoples' expectations? And that the sanction is itself more or less important to different people?
I actually do care about what other people think of me. It actually alarms me that people find me memorable because it worries me that there is something odd about me that makes me stuck out from the crowd; something about me that is considered weird, that attracts attention.
So for example, I was at the Eastern Market in D.C. yesterday looking for oranges. I had been down there a week ago looking for oranges and they didn't have any of the kind I wanted. But the woman I had asked about them last week and her boss both remembered me. Why? Well, I am a trans* person so I have the same worries that many of us have about passing, acceptance, blending in, etc. So my mind immediately goes to worrying that she thought I was funny looking. Or something was off about my manner. Or something seen as different related to trans*ness.
I care about what others think of me. But I care more about being authentic, real, and genuinely me. So I'm not going to change anything about myself based on that. Someone else might care more about it and might try to change something about themselves to be less noticed, less likely to be remembered, and more able to blend in, disappear, and hide.
Isn't that difference in reaction really all that we are saying? Or am I missing something?
I know this has been said in more than one way and also I'm not mtf, but for me I was lying to my child. We don't have money or family or prestige, but we can have integrity if we are honest. In my opinion I was a bad person and betraying my own ethics when I knew what I could be and kept dodging the idea of transition. Eternal suffering would be better than teaching a kid that it's okay to sublimate one's own identity in service of acceptability.
'Passing' is as much mental as it is physical. In fact, I would venture that it is *mostly* psychological.
If I had waited until 2016 to lose all of my male edges, I would still have to go through the whole socialization/adjustment period of living full-time - and that *was* the hardest part.
The sooner the better. I believe that waiting to be physically 100% holds us back, rather than helping us.
When I was 19 and looking to transition, passing was very important to me (so was surgery). I saw it as the end all be all and I had thoughts that if I couldn't pass, I didn't know I'd do. I'd meet older transwomen at my support group and many didn't pass well. I didn't get it.
Now, 21 years later, I get it. I've reached a point where I don't care if I pass. I'd like to and I still want to, but it's no longer required for me (like surgery). I just want to be myself. I'd like to pass and be accepted as a ciswoman, I'd be okay if people weren't sure or even knew me as a transwoman. Of course, that's me talking before I've ever been out in public dressed en femme at my age. So who knows! [emoji2]
Didn't transition for 6 years(the amount of time I knew transition was possible) because I figured I wouldn't pass. Got to the point of suicide or transition chose suicide at first until I was caught midstride and talked out of it. Very very glad that happened.
Just saying for anyone in the same situation, couldn't see it before, but there is more to it than passing. Like others have said the feeling of getting to be yourself is nicer than you can imagine. I still dont believe I will ever pass without a bunch of ffs(i cant afford for years), but since starting hrt life is so dang good :)
Still have ups and downs but the ups are more frequent and higher and the downs more rare.
And it's somewhat of a leap of faith.. You can never be sure how you will look until you do it..
Quote from: Kristyn74 on February 01, 2015, 06:12:37 AM
Dunno...just a thought,but I was worried about how I would be perceived by the public,but really,how much do you look around at people?i only notice those who dress to stand out,loud clothes etc.
I missed this earlier, but I totally agree.
The truth is that people really don't care. We are our *own* worst critics.
Beating our inner critic can be real tough - but achieve this and nobody can touch you (on the off chance that they even try!)
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 01, 2015, 10:16:45 AM
I care about what others think of me. But I care more about being authentic, real, and genuinely me. So I'm not going to change anything about myself based on that. Someone else might care more about it and might try to change something about themselves to be less noticed, less likely to be remembered, and more able to blend in, disappear, and hide.
Isn't that difference in reaction really all that we are saying? Or am I missing something?
Sure. Probably a matter of priorities, right? You care what other people think, but it's more important for you to be authentic. For others, perhaps, projecting the image they want gets the higher priority.
For me, I want people to see and know the genuine me. Knowing my history too early on in the relationship might interfere with that. If they know I'm trans before they get to know me, they might substitute their prejudices and preconceptions for their knowledge of the real me.
But people I'm going to have a longer relationship with, I really want them to know all my history. That's why I came out at my UU congregation. These people are going to be my family. I want them to know me.
I see a woman quite often walk by where I eat and have coffee. She works at a university across the street from where I live. I've seen her for at least 10 years from when she just started taking hormones. she's quite tall and heavy built, but she just went and went full time before the E started to kick in. She just dressed nicely and went about her business . You can see how much the E has worked on her and she looks all right.
Quote from: suzifrommd on February 02, 2015, 05:10:11 PM
Sure. Probably a matter of priorities, right? You care what other people think, but it's more important for you to be authentic. For others, perhaps, projecting the image they want gets the higher priority.
For me, I want people to see and know the genuine me. Knowing my history too early on in the relationship might interfere with that. If they know I'm trans before they get to know me, they might substitute their prejudices and preconceptions for their knowledge of the real me.
But people I'm going to have a longer relationship with, I really want them to know all my history. That's why I came out at my UU congregation. These people are going to be my family. I want them to know me.
Suzi, it sounds like you are assuming that I was suggesting that all trans* people ought to be out about being trans*. I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. And unless I'm misunderstanding, that is not what this topic is about.
My own experience is that if I want to be authentic, then it is easiest to do that if people do not know about me being trans*. When people know, I am subject to a variety of assumptions and pressures, both subtle and overt, both internal and external, and from both trans* and cis people. When I want to relax, be genuine with people, and let them know me as a person, I do not tell people I'm trans*. It only gets in the way.
Alex Kapitan described this experience on the Standing On The Side Of Love blog much better than I ever could:
Quote from: Alex Kapitan link=http://standingonthesideoflove.org/tag/alex-kapitan/page/2/
Myth #2: People who are "out" are liberated and those who are not are living a lie, deceptive, and/or self-hating.
This one is a doozy. Although it's reflective of many peoples' experiences prior to coming to understand, accept, and affirm an authentic identity for themselves, it gets applied with a broad brush that erases profound differences around identity and cultural context. Frankly, we could do a lot of good if we stopped conflating the process of coming out to oneself with the processes of disclosing one's identity to others. Many people are perfectly secure and out in their identities for themselves and have no need or desire to share them with anyone else. For example, being in a life partnership doesn't keep a person from drawing strength from their bisexual identity, but whether they share that information with the world is solely up to them.
. . .
And let's not forget the profound differences between sexual identity and gender identity when it comes to disclosure. Take, for example, a man who went through a gender transition a decade or two ago. Happily, he is seen and experienced by everyone around him as unquestionably male. He is out and proud, my friends! Living as his true authentic self in the world, seen by others the way he sees himself—it doesn't get more out than that. So if this man chooses to tell someone that once upon a time he was someone's eldest daughter, that's a disclosure—it's not "coming out" because it doesn't help him live more authentically in the world or be more authentically seen. Rather, it puts him at risk of his gender identity being questioned and disrespected, which makes it harder for him to be his authentic male self. . . .
This pretty much nails my experience perfectly. I'm out and proud. Except when I'm required to be a symbol for trans* people. Then it's harder to be my authentic self.
I think the notion of outness as an integral, essential part of being authentic is something that people have learned from the gay community and misapplied to the trans* community. For gay people, being out can be very freeing and affirming. You don't have to get an opposite sex platonic friend to pose as your date for a party, for example. For trans* people, it can be anything but freeing because so many people, no matter how supportive and affirming, will see a trans* person as something other than the wo/man that the trans* person sees themselves as. This is an essential difference between being gay and being trans*.
Not every gay person sees themselves this way, of course. And not every trans* person does either. But these experiences seem to be quite common. Hence the "problem" of how many trans* people transition and disappear, never to be heard from by the trans* community ever again.
So if I'm not urging outness, then what am I saying?
Well, it seems to me that a lot of trans* people have a vision of what "being a man" or "being a woman" is. And they pursue that vision regardless of whether it is authentic and true to themselves. Hence all the discussions we have all over the Internet, in support groups, etc. about how to act like a man a woman. Learning to affect "correct mannerisms" for example, is a big big thing to a lot of trans* people. They then spend years monitoring and policing their body language to try and get it right because what they are doing is an affectation instead of doing what actually comes naturally to them.
What I am suggesting is that one day, when not passing no longer has the severe consequences it can have today, people won't need those affectations anymore. They will be more free to be true to themselves and behave naturally.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
Suzi, it sounds like you are assuming that I was suggesting that all trans* people ought to be out about being trans*. I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. And unless I'm misunderstanding, that is not what this topic is about.
My own experience is that if I want to be authentic, then it is easiest to do that if people do not know about me being trans*. When people know, I am subject to a variety of assumptions and pressures, both subtle and overt, both internal and external, and from both trans* and cis people. When I want to relax, be genuine with people, and let them know me as a person, I do not tell people I'm trans*. It only gets in the way.
Alex Kapitan described this experience on the Standing On The Side Of Love blog much better than I ever could:
This pretty much nails my experience perfectly. I'm out and proud. Except when I'm required to be a symbol for trans* people. Then it's harder to be my authentic self.
I think the notion of outness as an integral, essential part of being authentic is something that people have learned from the gay community and misapplied to the trans* community. For gay people, being out can be very freeing and affirming. You don't have to get an opposite sex platonic friend to pose as your date for a party, for example. For trans* people, it can be anything but freeing because so many people, no matter how supportive and affirming, will see a trans* person as something other than the wo/man that the trans* person sees themselves as. This is an essential difference between being gay and being trans*.
Not every gay person sees themselves this way, of course. And not every trans* person does either. But these experiences seem to be quite common. Hence the "problem" of how many trans* people transition and disappear, never to be heard from by the trans* community ever again.
So if I'm not urging outness, then what am I saying?
Well, it seems to me that a lot of trans* people have a vision of what "being a man" or "being a woman" is. And they pursue that vision regardless of whether it is authentic and true to themselves. Hence all the discussions we have all over the Internet, in support groups, etc. about how to act like a man a woman. Learning to affect "correct mannerisms" for example, is a big big thing to a lot of trans* people. They then spend years monitoring and policing their body language to try and get it right because what they are doing is an affectation instead of doing what actually comes naturally to them.
What I am suggesting is that one day, when not passing no longer has the severe consequences it can have today, people won't need those affectations anymore. They will be more free to be true to themselves and behave naturally.
ditto
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
What I am suggesting is that one day, when not passing no longer has the severe consequences it can have today, people won't need those affectations anymore. They will be more free to be true to themselves and behave naturally.
I can only speak for myself. I've put a lot of effort into passing, practicing mannerisms, voice, painstakingly hiding anything that could out me. I didn't do it because of severe consequences. In fact nothing bad has ever happened to me on those days when I'm not passable, other than some strange looks.
But I think that gendering is not something societal or cultural. I think gendering is an inborn tendency, wired into our brains. I don't think societal acceptance or a deep understanding of transgender people will change that. I mean, look at the way I am with some of my non-passing MtF friends. I have so much trouble gendering them as female, because my brain tells me they are male. Few lay people are more knowledgeable or experienced with transgender people than I am, but my brain knows what it knows and stubbornly sends signals that those people are male that no knowledge otherwise seems to interrupt.
I also think that there are differences between the genders that people internalize from a young age, so that once someone genders you male, they will see you as a male and have trouble treating you as a woman even if they intellectually know you are one.
I want to be gendered and treated as a woman by people I meet. Even if they know all the way through to the core of their soul that trans women are female, they will treat me differently if they see a man when they look at me. So I'm willing to do any number of things that aren't related to being true to myself in order to show them enough of a woman that seeing me as one and treating me accordingly is as easy as I can make it.
Quote from: suzifrommd on February 02, 2015, 06:59:42 PM
I can only speak for myself. I've put a lot of effort into passing, practicing mannerisms, voice, painstakingly hiding anything that could out me. I didn't do it because of severe consequences. In fact nothing bad has ever happened to me on those days when I'm not passable, other than some strange looks.
But I think that gendering is not something societal or cultural. I think gendering is an inborn tendency, wired into our brains. I don't think societal acceptance or a deep understanding of transgender people will change that. I mean, look at the way I am with some of my non-passing MtF friends. I have so much trouble gendering them as female, because my brain tells me they are male. Few lay people are more knowledgeable or experienced with transgender people than I am, but my brain knows what it knows and stubbornly sends signals that those people are male that no knowledge otherwise seems to interrupt.
I also think that there are differences between the genders that people internalize from a young age, so that once someone genders you male, they will see you as a male and have trouble treating you as a woman even if they intellectually know you are one.
I want to be gendered and treated as a woman by people I meet. Even if they know all the way through to the core of their soul that trans women are female, they will treat me differently if they see a man when they look at me. So I'm willing to do any number of things that aren't related to being true to myself in order to show them enough of a woman that seeing me as one and treating me accordingly is as easy as I can make it.
And if you could be treated and seen as a woman without having to practice voice, mannerisms, etc, would you still practice voice, mannerisms, etc?
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 07:17:14 PM
And if you could be treated and seen as a woman without having to practice voice, mannerisms, etc, would you still practice voice, mannerisms, etc?
My first thought was, heck no, I have way better ways to spend my time and brain cells.
But I really do have a sense of accomplishment at how feminine I've been able to become. If it makes sense, I like the Suzi better who can talk with a sweet feminine voice and have a woman's fluid movements, dress, skin, etc. Maybe passing is a validation of my accomplishment, like olympic judges holding up scorecards.
Quote from: suzifrommd on February 02, 2015, 08:33:11 PM
My first thought was, heck no, I have way better ways to spend my time and brain cells.
I suspect that most would not. And that's my point.
Not everything that is serious is dramatic. Losing the right to define yourself or losing the respect for your fundamental identity seems to me like a pretty serious consequence of not passing. And I rather strongly suspect that most people would not practice learning to practice manner, voice, etc. if it were likely that their identities would be disrespected.
By the way, I do know very well the feeling you described of having it be difficult to get the gender right of people who don't pass. I have a hard time with that too.
Quote
But I really do have a sense of accomplishment at how feminine I've been able to become. If it makes sense, I like the Suzi better who can talk with a sweet feminine voice and have a woman's fluid movements, dress, skin, etc. Maybe passing is a validation of my accomplishment, like olympic judges holding up scorecards.
Yup. But what if there were no Olympic judges holding up scorecards? What if people learned to respect one another's identities even if they don't pass? What if everyone gets scored a perfect 10 regardless of whether they pass or not? The sense of accomplishment might fade if the accomplishment were so non-essential.
what if your personality became more fundamental than appearance , such as voice, looks and mannerisms .
I can't see how personality would really be that essential; people don't usually assume "oh, that girl is trans!" when I'm being assertive. They just say I'm a bitch, which is their problem. There's a world of difference between personality and appearance when it comes to passing.
Quote from: missymay on January 30, 2015, 03:19:59 PM
:laugh:
True Story: when I changed my gender at my auto insurance company, they increased my premium; :'(
That's weird it's supposed to decrease.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 07:17:14 PM
And if you could be treated and seen as a woman without having to practice voice, mannerisms, etc, would you still practice voice, mannerisms, etc?
Maybe yes because I want to be seen in a certain way. I want people to look at me and admire me not just think I don't care about myself.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
Well, it seems to me that a lot of trans* people have a vision of what "being a man" or "being a woman" is. And they pursue that vision regardless of whether it is authentic and true to themselves. Hence all the discussions we have all over the Internet, in support groups, etc. about how to act like a man a woman. Learning to affect "correct mannerisms" for example, is a big big thing to a lot of trans* people. They then spend years monitoring and policing their body language to try and get it right because what they are doing is an affectation instead of doing what actually comes naturally to them.
I've been wrestling with these sorts of issues myself lately. Something that seems significant to me is that cis folks spend far more time learning these mannerisms than any trans person ever will, but that time isn't tallied up and thought about because it's lumped in with the experiences of growing up.
I find that I think I feel differently about changes or efforts that are sort of "making up" for missed experiences than I do about those that are more like arbitrary changes to oneself. For example, I have no hesitation about HRT and little about GRS (at this point anyway, when it's on the distant horizon), but BA or FFS provoke far more complicated feelings. Somehow, for me, those brush up against being changes for vanity's sake in a way that other procedures don't. (I don't mean to be offensive or judgmental about others here, btw, I am speaking solely about myself.)
Quote from: suzifrommd on February 02, 2015, 06:59:42 PM
I can only speak for myself. I've put a lot of effort into passing, practicing mannerisms, voice, painstakingly hiding anything that could out me. I didn't do it because of severe consequences. In fact nothing bad has ever happened to me on those days when I'm not passable, other than some strange looks.
But I think that gendering is not something societal or cultural. I think gendering is an inborn tendency, wired into our brains. I don't think societal acceptance or a deep understanding of transgender people will change that. I mean, look at the way I am with some of my non-passing MtF friends. I have so much trouble gendering them as female, because my brain tells me they are male. Few lay people are more knowledgeable or experienced with transgender people than I am, but my brain knows what it knows and stubbornly sends signals that those people are male that no knowledge otherwise seems to interrupt.
I also think that there are differences between the genders that people internalize from a young age, so that once someone genders you male, they will see you as a male and have trouble treating you as a woman even if they intellectually know you are one.
I want to be gendered and treated as a woman by people I meet. Even if they know all the way through to the core of their soul that trans women are female, they will treat me differently if they see a man when they look at me. So I'm willing to do any number of things that aren't related to being true to myself in order to show them enough of a woman that seeing me as one and treating me accordingly is as easy as I can make it.
I couldn't agree with this more.
It is absolutely true that gendering is not something learned but it is how we are wired. So I'm going to play nature's little game and make myself as close to the norm as possible. Not hyper feminine but just a normal ordinary woman. A beautiful one if possible but average and normal woman. Emphasis on woman.
Quote from: stephaniec on February 02, 2015, 09:22:26 PM
what if your personality became more fundamental than appearance , such as voice, looks and mannerisms .
In some cases it is. Voice for example. Clothes make the man but the voice makes the woman.
Quote from: stephaniec on February 02, 2015, 09:22:26 PM
what if your personality became more fundamental than appearance , such as voice, looks and mannerisms .
If this question is directed at me, then I apologize because I do not understand the question.
Quote from: jeni on February 02, 2015, 09:46:40 PM
I've been wrestling with these sorts of issues myself lately. Something that seems significant to me is that cis folks spend far more time learning these mannerisms than any trans person ever will, but that time isn't tallied up and thought about because it's lumped in with the experiences of growing up.
True. But there are more reasons than just that for viewing a cispersons learning differently. Just off the top of my head:
(1) Cis-people don't usually take lessons or consciously study their body language. So far as I'm aware, courses of actual study are unique to trans* people.
(2) Cis-people's body language typically is not motivated by fear that their language will be cause them to be seen as a different gender if they fail to conform to a specific image.
(3) Some of a cis-person's body language is related to physical features. An easy example is the way women brush back their hair. Men don't typically do that because they usually have shorter hair. Or one that cannot be easily changed with a haircut is differences in gait when walking. I'm told that it can be uncomfortable for most men to cross their legs as women often do because "equipment" would get squished. And so on.
(4) It really is not known how much body language is learned by a cis person versus how much is hard wired. As far as I know, the resolution of nature versus nurture here is unknown.
(5) Cis-people do not seem to feel the same pressure to conform to an arbitrary image that many trans* people do. If you went up to the butchest woman in the world and told her she was moving wrong for a woman, I doubt she'd pay much attention to you. Say that to a transwoman, especially at a certain point in her journey, and she may be mortified. As a result, it seems like cispeople are much more free to do what comes naturally to them.
Quote from: jeni on February 02, 2015, 09:46:40 PM
I find that I think I feel differently about changes or efforts that are sort of "making up" for missed experiences than I do about those that are more like arbitrary changes to oneself.
And here's a very weak spot in my vision that I must acknowledge. Somehow I seem to have been born with a lot of this knowledge and such. It's just there for me, and I have no idea where it came from. Therefore, I am
(1) unable to comment very much because I don't have that experience; and
(2) keenly aware that when I talk about just being authentic, I am talking about something that works easily for me because being authentic makes me pretty gender conforming. If you've talked to me on mumble, for example, you will have heard that I have a somewhat unusual voice in our community, particularly because it actually is my voice and I never had to train it. So it's fine for me to say "hey just be yourself" when that means for me that everything fits in pretty cisnormative ways. It's a lot harder for a person who ends up highly nonconforming if they just relax and be themselves because they may face a lot of societal sanction. Therefore I am perhaps unfit to comment on such an issue,
. . . but of course that's the whole point I am trying to make. If nonconformity did not have such consequences, then maybe people would put feel so much need to go out of their way and try so hard to conform!
Quote from: ImagineKate on February 02, 2015, 09:45:02 PM
Maybe yes because I want to be seen in a certain way. I want people to look at me and admire me not just think I don't care about myself.
But isn't that also another societal sanction that you are concerned about avoiding? Another expectation you are worried about meeting?
I believe that if you are being true to yourself then, by definition, you are doing it right. I don't think that society at large shares my view. I hope one day it will.
I was just saying that if society was based on the character of one's soul rather than ones physical appearance , such as voice , mannerisms etc, would it really matter if you " passed" , or maybe what I'm trying to say if society truly realized the meaning of what Dr. Martin Luther King was saying we could obliterate the craziness of the value placed on each other because of the way they look.
Quote from: stephaniec on February 02, 2015, 10:49:55 PM
I was just saying that if society was based on the character of one's soul rather than ones physical appearance , such as voice , mannerisms etc, would it really matter if you " passed" , or maybe what I'm trying to say if society truly realized the meaning of what Dr. Martin Luther King was saying we could obliterate the craziness of the value placed on each other because of the way they look.
Total amen from me. :)
I hope you won't judge me for appearing to be insensitive to the feelings of others but this world, where nobody judges or genders you based on subliminal body language, (voice, appearance, mannerisms etc.) just simply does not exist. As has been admitted by even the most experienced among us, if someone "appears" male, (be it voice, body-build, mannerisms, whatever), they will automatically be "gendered" male and treated accordingly.
In some "enlightened" situations, (college campuses for example). or where there are societally imposed sanctions for not responding "appropriately" to the "presented" gender, those who do not "pass" or "present" convincingly might be treated, addressed and/or related to in a manner consistent with the gender they are presenting as, but....in truth, just how authentic is that?
What is being addressed here, IMO is just how compulsive these GD feelings can be that even knowing how slim the chances for a successful transition might be, people are willing to accept that "half a loaf" rather than no "loaf" at all.
Unfortunately. in my mind at least, there are many who might expect that this imposed/forced acceptance by others will be sufficient to sustain them only to find that in the end they will have to find other ways to fill that need for human warmth and intimacy.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 03, 2015, 12:07:51 AM
Tamara,
You raise an interesting paradox, albiet your wording feels needlessly cruel:
1. Trans women are women.
2. Gender (as opposed to sex) does not exist outside the context of perception-that is, if someone genders you female because they want to be politically correct.
3. Therefore, trans women are not of the socially dictated female gender unless they are perceived as women, and not of the actually dictated female sex unless they have had surgery, hrt, etc.
4. However, all trans women are women...
There's no good way to mediate this. I cannot figure out a way to both validate my own dysphoria and the identities of people who choose not to physically OR socially transition. Take my friend Ruby, for example. As of now, she does not pass, does not present in a feminine manner, and is not perceived as female. She has not yet begun her physical transition. And yet, she still sees herself as female, and is referred to as such. So, is Ruby female? Her sex is not female, and she is not, within the context of the social construct of gender, female. That's how she sees herself, which is fine. But gender is not JUST how one sees themselvs; otherwise, people would not transition, unless transitioning is solely for validation which seems unlikely to me. So, what is Ruby? Her sex is not female and her gender is not female, and yet she is treated as such. If gender (Not sex, don't tell me I'm discounting dysphoria!) is a construct of perception, than how can she be female? An identity is just one's perception of them self, and if that identity differs from the perception of everyone else around the individual, they must be wrong.
Any thoughts here? This is an avenue of questioning that scares me a bit, and I hope it doesn't seem like I'm trying to invalidate anyone. I'm just trying to figure out a way to make sense of this question.
Also, Tamara, once again-no need to be so harsh.
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about or how the above assertions relate in anyway to my observation that the world in which we all live/exist etc. is far from the panacea wished for by those who do not "pass".
"Harsh"? I am not harsh. Life is harsh. Reality can be harsh. I am a happy, fuzzy kitty.
:police:
Lets not start an argument please.
Thank You
Cindy
Not trying to start an arguement at all! Just pointing out that talking about trans women who don't have the luck required to pass in this way is really, really nasty and hurtful.
OK Honey, I understand.
Lets move on.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 10:43:44 PM
(1) Cis-people don't usually take lessons or consciously study their body language. So far as I'm aware, courses of actual study are unique to trans* people.
Can I respectfully disagree?
Cis people do take lessons that come in the form of their childhoods where they emulate the gendered features of their family, mentors, and peers. Gender expression differs widely among cultures. We're not born knowing gendered behavior. We learn it through our childhood.
What I've had to do, as a transwoman transitioning middle age is to take a "crash" course to learn all the behaviors that cis woman had the luxury of an entire childhood to learn.
Yes, I'd much rather learn it the way they did, over a period of 15 or 20 years, but by then I'd be in my mid 70s.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 02, 2015, 10:43:44 PM
True. But there are more reasons than just that for viewing a cispersons learning differently. Just off the top of my head:
(1) Cis-people don't usually take lessons or consciously study their body language. So far as I'm aware, courses of actual study are unique to trans* people.
(2) Cis-people's body language typically is not motivated by fear that their language will be cause them to be seen as a different gender if they fail to conform to a specific image.
(3) Some of a cis-person's body language is related to physical features. An easy example is the way women brush back their hair. Men don't typically do that because they usually have shorter hair. Or one that cannot be easily changed with a haircut is differences in gait when walking. I'm told that it can be uncomfortable for most men to cross their legs as women often do because "equipment" would get squished. And so on.
(4) It really is not known how much body language is learned by a cis person versus how much is hard wired. As far as I know, the resolution of nature versus nurture here is unknown.
(5) Cis-people do not seem to feel the same pressure to conform to an arbitrary image that many trans* people do. If you went up to the butchest woman in the world and told her she was moving wrong for a woman, I doubt she'd pay much attention to you. Say that to a transwoman, especially at a certain point in her journey, and she may be mortified. As a result, it seems like cispeople are much more free to do what comes naturally to them.
Like Suzi said, I think cis folks do this consciously more than it seems. I certainly recall being sensitive about how I sat or walked as adolescence approached because I didn't want to be sitting like a girl (i.e., with my legs crossed the wrong way) or wiggling too much while walking, etc. At that point in my life, the trans factor hadn't reared its head, so I don't think I'm out of the ordinary in that way. For girls, I think there's even more of this---learning makeup, being taught to sit in such and such a way with a skirt, etc. I think very little of that is intrinsic to anyone. It has a massive cultural component, meaning it's learned and important for social reasons.
For me, I would say my interest in relearning body language, etc, is not primarily driven by fear of being clocked. It's because I would positively like to be accepted as a typical female, both by others and by myself. I don't think this is so different from the cis girl experience. An important part of ones identity (for some of us) is how we believe we're perceived by others.
Re: physical features, well, I had long hair for most of my life.... and I also never had much trouble crossing my legs. I think the rumors of junk interference are overstated... there may be some truth to this, but I think there's much more social than physiological drive behind most changes.
As for point 5, try going up to an adolescent girl and telling her that. (Note: don't really try this.) I think the response will be far different from your example---that time of transition has a lot in common with a transgender transition, and pubescent kids are famously touchy about their physical changes and behavior. I suspect if you went to a transgender person well after transition you'd get a fairer comparison here.
Anyway, not trying to argue so much as think about things. My feeling is that trans worries are not so different from cis adolescent worries. I don't disagree that there are some fears and worries that are either amplified or present only in the trans case, but I still think the biggest apparent difference stems from it being perceived as normal or natural for teenagers to bumble about and learn how to play their gender roles. By the later ages when many of us transition, that's "supposed" to be behind us, so it seems out of the ordinary.
Well,
I know the answer to this question.. I have not read any responses but here it is.. being Trans is not a choice.. having a chick brain is just that.. you are who you are.
Passing is wonderful and I do but...... I am not ashamed to be Trans. It took me a while to get to this place but if someone has a problem with it its their problem not mine.. I deserve to be me as much as a young person deserves to be cured of cancer or any other illness. We deserve respect. The trans survivors.. ones who go on the transition pass or not are amazing.. When you get to a place where you are real and yourself around others.. its amazing how much good people.. ones with hearts become your friend.
We are all human..and deserve happiness.
I am going to post an experience I had yesterday that shows that I am not ashamed to be trans when I outed myself
Dodie :)
Quote from: stephaniec on February 02, 2015, 10:49:55 PM
I was just saying that if society was based on the character of one's soul rather than ones physical appearance , such as voice , mannerisms etc, would it really matter if you " passed" , or maybe what I'm trying to say if society truly realized the meaning of what Dr. Martin Luther King was saying we could obliterate the craziness of the value placed on each other because of the way they look.
There seems to be a perception among some of us that trying to 'learn' how to act feminine is being untrue to oneself if it does not come naturally right away. I would have to disagree with that for several reasons. First, when one has been suppressing her true self for years in order to conform to societal expectations or to hide a transgender identity, such suppression often comes naturally and needs to be unlearned. For some, that can be misinterpreted as a desperate attempt to 'learn' femininity. Secondly, hormones affect not only appearance but behavior as well. Long-term exposure to testosterone might make the brain "confused" when the T is suddenly replaced with estrogen, and therefore the innate components of femininity might not come as naturally as they would for a cis girl. And like others have said, cis females spend plenty of time trying to present female as well, but it is less often noticed in them because they receive much less scrutiny. For me, trying to learn the mannerisms that help with passing is not about learning to be a different person. It is about becoming the person I have always known myself to be at heart. While being gendered 'male' by others is hurtful, it is five times worse to see masculine features in myself, knowing they are a by-product of an incorrect upbringing (both social and hormonal) and not representative of who I really am.
What all this means is that I
would try just as hard to pass better even if it made no difference to anyone else or their perception of me. Such efforts are about being true to myself. If they lead to greater acceptance down the line, that would be an added bonus that I would certainly appreciate.
Quote from: suzifrommd on February 03, 2015, 06:15:39 AM
Can I respectfully disagree?
Cis people do take lessons that come in the form of their childhoods where they emulate the gendered features of their family, mentors, and peers. Gender expression differs widely among cultures. We're not born knowing gendered behavior. We learn it through our childhood.
What I've had to do, as a transwoman transitioning middle age is to take a "crash" course to learn all the behaviors that cis woman had the luxury of an entire childhood to learn.
Yes, I'd much rather learn it the way they did, over a period of 15 or 20 years, but by then I'd be in my mid 70s.
Of course you can disagree. :)
But here are some websites that are all about teaching transgender people how to use body "correct" language. I'll stick with just mtf spectrum since that's who is mostly in this conversation:
http://library.transgenderzone.com/?page_id=605
http://feminizationsecrets.com/part1/
http://youtu.be/XLTcwqfDKXE
http://steppingoutsecrets.com
All that from the first page of a Google search. I did a similar Google search for to look for something to teach cispeople how to act like their gender. I found none. The closest I came was this website on how certain body language functions in the workplace:
http://www.amanet.org/training/articles/10-Powerful-Body-Language-Tips.aspx
Are you aware of any websites that train ciswomen on how to move like a woman? If not, then that's my point. Cispeople learn by doing. They don't learn from taking a class. And partly because of that, they are much more free to just be natural because they never had a teacher tell them how they must do it. So they are free to break those rules. :)
Quote from: jeni on February 03, 2015, 09:35:47 AM
Like Suzi said, I think cis folks do this consciously more than it seems. I certainly recall being sensitive about how I sat or walked as adolescence approached because I didn't want to be sitting like a girl (i.e., with my legs crossed the wrong way) or wiggling too much while walking, etc. At that point in my life, the trans factor hadn't reared its head, so I don't think I'm out of the ordinary in that way.
You're not a cisperson. One might suspect that your experience was different because you were trans*, even if you had not figured it out.
Quote from: jeni on February 03, 2015, 09:35:47 AMAs for point 5, try going up to an adolescent girl and telling her that. (Note: don't really try this.) I think the response will be far different from your example---that time of transition has a lot in common with a transgender transition, and pubescent kids are famously touchy about their physical changes and behavior. I suspect if you went to a transgender person well after transition you'd get a fairer comparison here.
Depends on the adolescent girl. Some adolescents are very butch too. And if you told them they had the wrong body language for a woman, they'd probably just see it as affirming their butchness. :)
Anyhoo, I think I've made my point on this topic and nothing is really added by having me keep responding to the same thing over and over. So unless something else interesting comes up, I'm going to stop expounding on the differences between how cispeople learn behavior and how trans* people do and the consequences produced by the different methods of learning.
Quote from: Steph34 on February 03, 2015, 10:06:14 AM
There seems to be a perception among some of us that trying to 'learn' how to act feminine is being untrue to oneself if it does not come naturally right away. I would have to disagree with that for several reasons. First, when one has been suppressing her true self for years in order to conform to societal expectations or to hide a transgender identity, such suppression often comes naturally and needs to be unlearned. For some, that can be misinterpreted as a desperate attempt to 'learn' femininity. Secondly, hormones affect not only appearance but behavior as well. Long-term exposure to testosterone might make the brain "confused" when the T is suddenly replaced with estrogen, and therefore the innate components of femininity might not come as naturally as they would for a cis girl. And like others have said, cis females spend plenty of time trying to present female as well, but it is less often noticed in them because they receive much less scrutiny. For me, trying to learn the mannerisms that help with passing is not about learning to be a different person. It is about becoming the person I have always known myself to be at heart. While being gendered 'male' by others is hurtful, it is five times worse to see masculine features in myself, knowing they are a by-product of an incorrect upbringing (both social and hormonal) and not representative of who I really am.
What all this means is that I would try just as hard to pass better even if it made no difference to anyone else or their perception of me. Such efforts are about being true to myself. If they lead to greater acceptance down the line, that would be an added bonus that I would certainly appreciate.
I think your misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. all I'm saying is that everyone has the right to be themselves whether or not the internal or external pressure is there to conform to the standards of societies view of what it is to be a certain gender. we can't deny someone the right to express their true self because they don't fit the concept of how to look that is a construction of society.Everyone has the right to be healed whether or not they """"" pass"""""
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 03, 2015, 10:24:15 AM
Are you aware of any websites that train ciswomen on how to move like a woman? If not, then that's my point. Cispeople learn by doing.
No. Cis people do NOT learn by doing. They learn while they are growing up by watching the women and girls around them.
They have decades to get it right.
We, on the other hands, have transitions that we want to last only a year or two. We don't have decades.
So we need websites.
Quote from: stephaniec on February 03, 2015, 10:52:50 AM
I think your misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. all I'm saying is that everyone has the right to be themselves whether or not the internal or external pressure is there to conform to the standards of societies view of what it is to be a certain gender. we can't deny someone the right to express their true self because they don't fit the concept of how to look that is a construction of society.Everyone has the right to be healed whether or not they """"" pass"""""
I love that concept, but unfortunately, external pressure to be 'more feminine' is usually present, and I would imagine that internal pressure is usually pretty intense if someone accepts the time and monetary cost, and personal risks, that come with transitioning. At times, it can be crippling. One reason for my failure to transition sooner, and also the main reason for my failure to communicate with other transgender people until just a few months ago, was my fear that I would be perceived as 'not feminine enough' to be *truly* female or transgender. I was wrong to let that fear hold me back. With regard to the delayed transition, that became a self-fulfilling prophecy, and dysphoria over my masculine characteristics still keeps me at home a lot. It is a very unpleasant situation. So yes, I agree that we should embrace our true selves and be the best people we can be, but I also feel that attempts to 'pass' better - even if not completely - are a great tool for accomplishing that. I can only speak for myself, but I cannot ever be "healed" if I can't pass. If I see a male in the mirror and strangers address me as "man" or "sir," there can be no healing for me. I would still transition anyway to be true to myself and to be more feminine than otherwise possible, but I would not be healed.
Hmmm,
Well being Fem for me after I admitted again to myself who I really am on the inside was as easy as breathing.
I still love the things I did before like football.
For me the way I walk needs to improve and I need to remember to hold my head upright and shoulders back.
My wife said she learned to do that with a book on her head and has me practicing.
As for other things I am good and came very naturally
I am not overly fem in my behavior but there are a lot of Cis women who are tom boys.. nothing wrong with just being who we are..
Dodie
ThePhoenix, there are coaches for cis people.. They are called deportment coaches, exist for men and women and have done so for at least a century..
Hot potato, pass it on ...
Just a thought on the idea that CIS are not trained in some way to behave (mannerisms, speech even attitude) like their birth gender.
My opinion hell no they are taught in many ways from many sources which is mostly learned at a young age.
CIS learn from parents teachers and even their peers as how to act like they gender they are designated as yet transgender have been taught the opposite.
Example: No timmy you should be playing with trucks not dolls. Jane you should cross your legs when you sit.
As for peer pressure "Look at timmy he is such a sissy lets leave him off the team or bully him etc."
I could also add books/tv well media in general.
Tv commercials portraying models hello what a woman is supposed to be although hardly attainable by even most CIS women.
Ok here is one that sure hits the nail on the head and sure heard this a load of times but.
Girls are made of sugar and spice and boys made of puppy dogs tails.
The difference is as a child we learn things a lot by seeing what others do and learn a lot faster yet with transgender its the total opposite we learn slower yet have less time to do so and as someone mentioned before we should have learned this already when we were a kid but ...
Yet to some degree I also agree that transgender may over emphasize say mannerisms until they are comfortable then perhaps they become more natural to them wherever those mannerism fit. Such as perhaps being more polite to others let them go first kind of thing then as confidence grows perhaps be more aggressive and head to beginning of a line.
What it truly boils down to as say a mtf is to learn more feminine mannerisms to 1 be less likely to be outed 2 be more likely seen as the gender they identify with 3 hey its a learning curve I am sure we all as a kid put something stupid in our mouths I realize that Is a little different but is it really we are trying to relearn and unlearn at the same time and quickly so perhaps we may go a little far then find a comfy zone as to what we perceive ourselves as and what others are more likely to perceive us as in an authentic manner at long last.
Trying to look at both sides really and both sides do have merit admit biased more one way then the other but just my thoughts not disrespect intended.
I think I can say with fair certainty that cis people learn the same way we do, via observation. I never had to adjust my mannerisms when I finally started my transition. Even presenting as male, I was sometimes gendered female on my mannerisms alone; it was always that way for me.
And yes, we do overcompensate, but it actually makes a fair amount of sense when you consider the years of repression we have to deal with. Personally, the longer I've been full time, the less ultrafemine I am. It used to be I wouldn't leave my apartment without makeup on. Now, for practical (time) reasons, I do it all the time. What I'm getting at is that these things are all very subjective and change over time. Those of you that need to learn do so more quickly than cis women, but there's nothing "biological" about gesturing or anything...we just pick this stuff up.
Yes and you're not forced to pick it up. It's mostly your identity that will determine how you behave... You might want to overcompensate, or you might just like the overfeminine thing. Being a woman mean very different things depending on woman. There's not just one way of being a woman. It changes depending on your environment. None of the woman I interact with have specific gesture or talking habits that could differ them from male.
Trying to be overfeminine will just draw attention on you, without actually making you more feminine. Just like the way you dress and your voice, I believe this things tends to become more and more "normal" with practice, and less exagerated.
Quote from: jeni on February 02, 2015, 09:46:40 PM
I've been wrestling with these sorts of issues myself lately. Something that seems significant to me is that cis folks spend far more time learning these mannerisms than any trans person ever will, but that time isn't tallied up and thought about because it's lumped in with the experiences of growing up.
I find that I think I feel differently about changes or efforts that are sort of "making up" for missed experiences than I do about those that are more like arbitrary changes to oneself. For example, I have no hesitation about HRT and little about GRS (at this point anyway, when it's on the distant horizon), but BA or FFS provoke far more complicated feelings. Somehow, for me, those brush up against being changes for vanity's sake in a way that other procedures don't. (I don't mean to be offensive or judgmental about others here, btw, I am speaking solely about myself.)
In my experience, getting FFS was more about saying goodbye to the self I hated in the mirror, and allowing my friends and family to see a clear difference apart from clothing and affectations. Since I now look like a sister of my old self, the people who know about me have a much easier time accepting the transition and seeing me as female. Knowing that I was dedicated enough to happily spend the money for and time recovering from FFS, separates me from someone lost who might be misguided for transitioning in their minds. SRS looms in the distant future, but mostly because I'm not particularly interested in holding onto something I consider vestigial.
Voice surgery intrigues and terrifies me. I'm not sure I'd be willing to gamble with my ability to speak without exhausting all the voice training I can find. I already hate when people won't listen to me, it'd be much worse if I couldn't speak in the first place.
BAs are complicated. The feminist in me refuses to seriously consider them necessary, however I'd look D-lightful ... ugh I can't finish this sentence.
To each his or her own. I am all for seizing your own identity and not being afraid to be yourself. I also believe FFS has and will continue to improve my quality of life.
Caveat: there are a lot of risks involved with FFS or any invasive surgery, and the recovery is really hard. Before you elect for any surgery, make sure to research your doctor and don't be afraid to pay premium since you only have one face/body. It's worth it to get exactly what you want IMO. There are a lot of other aspects to transitioning apart from surgery as well. And it seems easy to get caught up in creating wish lists for surgeries we want and attempting to design perfection in a new body for us.
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Quote from: suzifrommd on February 03, 2015, 11:01:56 AM
No. Cis people do NOT learn by doing. They learn while they are growing up by watching the women and girls around them.
They have decades to get it right.
We, on the other hands, have transitions that we want to last only a year or two. We don't have decades.
So we need websites.
Umm, y'all have moms right? The relationship you have with her and the rest of your family is very different if you are assigned female at birth.
Secondly, there are debutantes balls, cotillions, quinceañeras, bat mitsvahs, etc.. Young ladies that experience these are usually coached on how to perform rituals and how to appear ladylike. A lot of time and effort is spent preserving these rituals of feminine acculturation.
Thirdly, there are manners classes. They teach boys how to act like proper gentlemen and girls how to act like proper ladies. Instruction includes dining etiquette, proper conversational topics, how to be appropriately rude to the disadvantaged while maintaining a modicum of modesty, etc.
Fourthly, school stratifies gendered activities. Without considering all-boys and all-girls schools, co-Ed schools still treat boys and girls differently. Children learn arguably more about how to act from their peers, as well. See peer pressure.
I could go on, but I'd prefer to digress...
Anthropology teaches that we learn by watching, trading and communicating with other people. If you consider boys and girls as distinct anthropological groups, it makes a lot of sense that transpeople would have to learn a new dialect in order to fit in and relate with the group they are seeking to integrate with. Watching another culture from afar is not the same as experiencing it. If you truly want to fit in with people you associate yourself with, then there are rules of acclimatization for established social structures and hierarchies. Seeking membership at a particular level of inclusion will require matching the criterion associated with it and fitting in.
Communication: whether with your body, intonation, or choice of words. In order to be able to communicate effectively you have to learn the language.
Trade: helping people, listening to them, interpreting how best to be supportive, and exchanging things of value with the other person. This can only be done if you can learn how, or already know.
If a girlfriend is curious about the nail polish color you are wearing, remembering its name and brand is helpful unless she was fishing for a compliment on her nails. Being able to talk about things that interest women is important if you want female friends. Being butch and only having guy friends is ok, but do you really want to be "that" girl.
All joking aside, it takes a lot of experience to understand how to communicate with people, and trade with and for things they and you want. So... learning how to adopt the affectations of another group of people to fit in isn't something reserved for transpeople. It's just annoying.
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having to pass is a personal thing and different for every single person. it isnt chancing transition its changing the physical body to the gender you feel. every bodies situation is different as to the situation you are trying to pass too. for some like me its not about passing its about correcting a body thats wrong,with that sorted i pass. maybe not what some people expect or want to see but to me i will pass.if you go into this with rose tinted specticals then you are going to have problems. for a lot its a rock and hard place situation. like me you have to transition but after it can end up a worse situation than before transition. as has been said so many times the feeling before is if i dont transition i may as well die yet transitioning gets you into a similar situation of i dont pass im miserable. you have to look hard in the mirror and ask if you can adjust to not passing as you may think once you have transitioned. try to see how it will be and grab a bit of reality not dreams. some of us are tough enough to accept how we look and ignore the fitting in or not. its an easy answer to the question why do some risk transition without passing they have to the head says so. perhaps the question should be why do so many not think hard about how they will cope after when its not the fairy tail land they dreamed it was. im not saying dont transition but be realistic about what can happen.
i thought i could ignore the fact i had body dysphoria and i ended up on suicide watch. i will transition but i know where on the gender wavey road i fit in. i read a post many years ago that said the best things to have were attitude and confidence and now i understand why. then i could never have said to a stranger im transgender but now even though im still male looking it doesnt bother me. i have got to a point where they think which way is he/she transgender and thats near a point where im happy. a lot chance transition hoping it will all be ok as its a condition that gives you little choice. i think of it as i am female and always have been so this is how i am. im not risking anything but my situation is different to most.
the feeling is so incredibly imbedded in ones soul. I've had it all my life, at one point I thought I had conquered it, I had put all my energy into work and I really became a dead person. I hit a bad crisis and it slam dunked me. It left me no choice.
i can relate to the burying head in work,i did the same and thought i had blanked out the feelings. didnt work they are etched into the soul. thought i had found a compromise but that ended up nearly killing me. after all that taking a chance to transition was an easy choice. maybe its slightly easier for me i have felt isolation and got through it. now its a road to discovery and its fun.
Re: Why do you think so many are willing to chance transition without "passing"?
I think it boils down to one of two simple answers. Either the individual *must* transition in order to just simply stay alive. Or...they think that "living as a woman" will be easier/more fun/ or "who they really are, deep down inside".
*mod edit, ToS 10
Quote from: Obfuskatie on February 05, 2015, 09:45:04 AM
In my experience, getting FFS was more about saying goodbye to the self I hated in the mirror, and allowing my friends and family to see a clear difference apart from clothing and affectations. Since I now look like a sister of my old self, the people who know about me have a much easier time accepting the transition and seeing me as female. Knowing that I was dedicated enough to happily spend the money for and time recovering from FFS, separates me from someone lost who might be misguided for transitioning in their minds. SRS looms in the distant future, but mostly because I'm not particularly interested in holding onto something I consider vestigial.
Thanks for your perpsective on this, it's interesting and helpful to hear. If I were to do it, I'd want a result like you describe, as it sounds like you are still "you," just feminized. That is certainly appealing.
I suspect that if I get through the HRT effects and beard electrolysis and still feel like my appearance is too masculine, I'll give FFS serious consideration. I think I have a fair shot at passing well enough without it, and I think that as long as I'm passing I'll be content.
I totally agree with you about voice surgery. I don't think it will be for me. Similarly for BA assuming I get anything reasonable in that department.
I just talked about my views of passing in another thread, but basically I believe the idea is way overrated. I am going to be authentic to what I feel inside, and I want that to be reflected in how I appear. I am not going to adjust my fashion choices to become invisible. My aunt always dressed eccentrically, because that is who she was, and she got noticed wherever she went. I learned a lot from that. I am going to be completely me, and if that gets me more clocked, I don't really care. Frankly, I realize that I am not only a woman, but I am also a trans woman, and I am increasingly proud of that identity.
I think Katie's views and experiences expressed in the last 2 posts are fairly close IMO to desired outcomes...
Passing is a state of mind, no doubt, but a defined visual and gender identity is key for some of us who would like to "pass" as we would like to see ourselves. It is a matter of choice definitely and of course whether you can wait or finance your transition to how you want to be seen, by yourself or others.
There are no rights or wrongs in whether you transition to FT without caring for "passing" or not... personally I would like certain visual impression's aligned to my view of how I want to look and sound... I always have been a bit of a sensitive person when people whisper behind my back...
I am fortunate that I am under a Dr who did not demand fronting up as the real you or the charade view to start the feminisation via HRT (I needed it early as my age meant that it would take longer than under 30's etc... however as I am starting to be happy with myself the time is approaching where I have to be fully public...
The need to mimic and "learn" the basic skills of "being" female to me are key (I practice walking in flats and heels, I practice visual expression, but that's a little harder until I get my support group together where I can practice), there is so much to learn :-\
Agreeing again with Katie that certain things can be missed or put on the shelf for later as long as you are happy, voice surgery for me is a real potential, but will depend on voice training success, else I will need to scrape the money up...
I love fashion and being able to wear what I want and be able to carry it off (age aside :-\) so face and neck surgery is high on the agenda at the moment trachea, forehead, age and sun damage to upper and lower lip and nose etc. are key, then voice... I am in the 140lbs / 64~65 Kg weight range so 34B boobs will work for me.
But I do admire those that say "to hell with everyone" I am doing what I want, think what you like, its me and I'm happy 8) I feel for those that for whatever reason just do not have a option... I am lucky I have had to live with my Dysphoria for ever, I won't very soon now, but I do want to look the best I can when I come out to the world....
Of course I am me and I don't intend to offend or dismiss any others stories or views, they are all valid and up for consideration
For me I probably will not go fully public without "passing" >85% obviously if someone wants to critic or be picky there will always be something... ;)
Just love this forum... certainly helping me... Great thread Stephanie :)
Love Katy :-* :-*
Quote from: stephaniec on February 05, 2015, 02:06:45 PM
the feeling is so incredibly imbedded in ones soul. I've had it all my life, at one point I thought I had conquered it, I had put all my energy into work and I really became a dead person. I hit a bad crisis and it slam dunked me. It left me no choice.
Stephaniec,
I could not have said it better... I wish I were a dude but I am a chick.. being a dude was so much easier.. but now I have passed the no return point and I have never been happier.
Dodie :)
Quote from: Dodie on February 06, 2015, 10:02:52 PM
Stephaniec,
I could not have said it better... I wish I were a dude but I am a chick.. being a dude was so much easier.. but now I have passed the no return point and I have never been happier.
Dodie :)
you've done well