After a marathon of the show "Transparent" how you feel about the show if you had never seen it like me?
Was it Realistic and or Depressing to you?
I am no too far way from Maura's age as I am in my early 60's and she is on her late 60's and in the beginning of my transition, which will probably be very slow due to work and family issues.
Is that the best life I can expect? We all don't look the same, but will I look and dress better?
Lastly will I be happy and satisfied as the woman I am, at that age?
Comments?
I haven't seen it, not sure yet if I want to. Keep in mind it is a drama, it might be based in reality but it is still fictional even if they do get the research right. Also, as far as I know, the actor playing Maura is cis and not on HRT or considering any form of surgery, facial, genital or otherwise. HRT can make a huge difference (I'm almost 49, only been on HRT 18 months) so I wouldn't despair too much.
As for whether you're going to be happy, that's something only you will be able to answer. The transition period is usually full of turbulence but settles down for most once they are living as their identified gender.
I debated watching it but decided against.
I felt it would end up depressing for me.
I watched it and although I know like Grace said that it is a drama loosely based on real life and that Maura is a cis actor it made me upset.
I wish that they would make a reality show using a transgendered individual and her family and going thru the mtf process. The producer could pay for her FFS and SRS and also some additional fees and I am sure that they would find an individual that could make the show a success.
Real life is much interesting and complex that what is on Transparent.
Emily
From what I understand the show at least is sympathetic and not sensationalist or exploitative, that alone is something to rejoice. Personally I'd be more depressed by a show about a teenager going through transition.
*Spoiler Alert*
I did watch it yesterday, and I was pretty impressed. It was well acted, and the script was well-written. I'm FTM, not MTF, but I didn't find it depressing: I'm also in my 60's, and I liked that Maura is an older trans person -- we're not a group that gets much media attention or general public awareness, so to me, something that says "Yes, older people can and do transition" is all to the good.
As to the choice of a cis male actor to play Maura, sure, it would have been more "politically correct" to cast a trans woman, but I don't know that it would have improved the quality of the show. Given that the show (aside from flashbacks) is set in a present in which Maura is just beginning her transition, casting someone who was a few years into hers might have made it less realistic, not more so. I thought Jeffrey Tambour did a remarkable and sensitive job of portraying someone whose physical appearance was completely at odds with her inner self.
Is the content unrealistic or depressing? Nah, not really. I think the way Maura is contrasted with her kids and wife, who are all somewhere between "major jerk" and "sociopath," makes it easier for a wide audience to find her sympathetic. She comes across as thoughtful, loving, and vulnerable, but also as someone who is pretty resilient. It's actually easier to believe that she'll be OK than that her kids will.
**
The only thing I found a bit unrealistic was the ease with which Shelly, Maura's ex-wife, and their kids, decided to dispose of Shelly's husband Ed. I mean, jeez... (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefiringline.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Frolleyes.gif&hash=0a0b44ad1de7ecfd5b4be1ab5919f433c770be5f)
Hi
After much discussion and trepidation, we watched the whole season last night.
In my opinion, the show is very realistic in portraying a disfunctional family. Maura's coming out is the catalyst that is pushing the family to, hopefully, reexamine themselves and their values next season.
There is lots to dislike about these people. They are all, Maura included, extremely greedy self-centered and shallow people.
In talking about the show this morning my spouse and I agreed, that it made us both uncomfortable, but the acting and production values were so good we would watch more episodes.
As far as seeing reality tv/movies about trans characters, there is tons of that already out there. A lot of it might not hit as close to home for you because the people are younger:
"Red Without Blue", Prodigal Son, 100% Woman" are a few that come to mind
As to your question about your own transition.... No two transitions or starting points are alike.. but in my opinion Maura is doing really well, and she has the advantage of appearing to having a boatload of money.
Her taste in clothes is not my style for a lot of the scenes. But isn't that part of what most people think on their own transition... "really I wore that and thought I looked good"
Quote from: Tysilio on January 25, 2015, 03:14:09 PM
*Spoiler Alert*
I did watch it yesterday, and I was pretty impressed. It was well acted, and the script was well-written. I'm FTM, not MTF, but I didn't find it depressing: I'm also in my 60's, and I liked that Maura is an older trans person -- we're not a group that gets much media attention or general public awareness, so to me, something that says "Yes, older people can and do transition" is all to the good.
As to the choice of a cis male actor to play Maura, sure, it would have been more "politically correct" to cast a trans woman, but I don't know that it would have improved the quality of the show. Given that the show (aside from flashbacks) is set in a present in which Maura is just beginning her transition, casting someone who was a few years into hers might have made it less realistic, not more so. I thought Jeffrey Tambour did a remarkable and sensitive job of portraying someone whose physical appearance was completely at odds with her inner self.
Is the content unrealistic or depressing? Nah, not really. I think the way Maura is contrasted with her kids and wife, who are all somewhere between "major jerk" and "sociopath," makes it easier for a wide audience to find her sympathetic. She comes across as thoughtful, loving, and vulnerable, but also as someone who is pretty resilient. It's actually easier to believe that she'll be OK than that her kids will.
**
The only thing I found a bit unrealistic was the ease with which Shelly, Maura's ex-wife, and their kids, decided to dispose of Shelly's husband Ed. I mean, jeez... (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefiringline.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Frolleyes.gif&hash=0a0b44ad1de7ecfd5b4be1ab5919f433c770be5f)
I agree with this mostly.
Quote from: Emily R on January 25, 2015, 01:58:40 PM
Is that the best life I can expect? We all don't look the same, but will I look and dress better?
Lastly will I be happy and satisfied as the woman I am, at that age?
Comments?
You dress however you like. You don't have to dress bad by any means. There is no telling how you would look, but realize this is about a transwoman in the first year, pre everything. In the real world how Maura would end up looking and dressing would improve greatly over time. Not sure if they will be able to portray the physical changes in the future because Maura's actor is not going to be taking hormones or anything.
The focus of this story is not Maura, it's the family. Maura's transition, like Elaina said, is a catalyst for bringing out the truth in each of the characters, maybe for making them better later on idk. I don't know how realistic any of them are. I don't personally know anybody with the level of narcissism that ALL of the family members seem to have.
I don't have the means to watch it , the sheer fact of the arrogance of having a cis male play the part , like having someone in blackface play an African American, You are the only one who can answer your questions . the need to do something usually trumps other reasons. Also, how many trans actors are out of work.
I haven't seen it yet, but I do think it might be good for you to remember the following:
No matter how much Jeffrey Tambor studied, no matter how much he talked with actual trans people to understand their struggles and motivations, he is still at the end of the day a cis man playing a trans woman. Which means that he's not going to have the benefit of HRT like trans women actually do, he's not going to have the benefit of being socialized as female like trans women do, his default mental "programming" is probably a bit more masculine, and also, "Transparent" is about the very early stages of transition... coming out, learning to dress, learning to act, and the other parts of transition where even actual trans women are very nervous and very awkward. So don't let it get to you if you get that feeling of "is THIS the best I can expect?"
It just seems to me it would be far more significant, socially , politically, honestly, innovatively , common sense wise to give the opportunity to a trans person to be discovered. So there is no trans actor who can achieve the caliber of that cis actor. I have nothing what so ever against the actor although I have no idea who he is. Of course I haven't watched TV fo 20 years so I really have no right to talk about TV.
QuoteIt just seems to me it would be far more significant, socially , politically, honestly, innovatively , common sense wise to give the opportunity to a trans person to be discovered.
That may be; but as far as I'm concerned, casting Tambor was a stroke of
artistic genius.
And one shouldn't forget that
all the other trans characters are played by trans actors (15 speaking roles and 100 extras), and other trans people were involved in the production in one way or another. I've also read that Jill Soloway went out of her way to create an inclusive, trans-friendly atmosphere during the production. I'd give her pretty good marks for combining artistic integrity with sensitivity to this issue.
(And I'm a little surprised to find myself using the word "artistic" in connection with
any TV show. But... yeah.)
Stephanie: You pretty much could only see it on a computer as it is not broadcast on regular channels nor cable and only on the amazon website.
I kind of agree with you in that Maura's role should have been played by a trans woman, unfortunately they probably would not have gotten the funding to do it with an unknown actor.
Elaina: Don't take me wrong, I love NOVA and most documentaries, but most people don't! They could have come up with a reality show concept where although not scripted but could be guided for things to happen they way that is convenient to the show producer. It takes a special kind of family to air of the transitioning and family opinions but it only takes one and I am sure there is one out there. I will say that is is not mine, as attractive as getting SRS, FFS, locally in the States by reputable experienced doctors and maybe cash could be.
TRANSITIONS: seems that the concept is interesting and I will definetely look for it, but it does not attract viewers to win Emmy's. Most of the viewers will have a personal interest, like us on Susans.
Emily
I am so happy to see more Trans shows on the tube that cast us in a positive light. With that being said I believe that the son and daughters Represent the worst of the Los Angeles vibe. They are shallow, selfish, and self serving. I really hope that next season they will cast them in more of a caring and loving light.
I have no intention to start world war three. I just Googled the actor and found out who he was. As far as I know he's a comedian. I could be wrong because honestly I'm into Science fiction and haven't owned a TV in 20 years so I understand I have no solid argument to offer other than common sense if that. So we have one production out of how many productions being produced annually that hires trans actors , but gives the main role to non trans. It sounds like the plantation mentality.
I binged the first season in a day the day before my FFS in November. I was actually a bit disappointed. While it was titled "Transparent", I found the other family issues were too dominant and perhaps the level of the kids dysfunctionality needed to be toned down a bit. It was meant to be funny but I think it was over the top. They are all just too f****d up for me. Not sure if I want to see any more as none of the characters grabbed me.
My biggest issue is with a wealthy white patriarch who transitions with much of the associated privilege transferring at the same time. A bit of Hollywood there rather than what I suspect is the real world.
Regarding Jeffrey Tambour in the lead role, I really don't care. He is acting and that is what he is good at. Of course, Bruce Willis is cast in roles to kill people because he has lived it. Sorry about that comment - it was just too easy! Seriously, perhaps given the importance in this time of Trans issues and the plight of Trans folk around the world, more effort could have been made in the casting decision but as others have said, the thing needed to get made with all that involves.
Is it a realistic example of what is to come over the next 20 years (in my case)? It doesn't have to be.
I do think there are too few trans actors and if they aren't even given trans roles, how will they ever break in? Hollywood does not take risks.
However, this show has a lot going for it to consider forgiving it. First, the lead actor HAD to be a name, or it never would have even been noticed. Second, all of the other trans chars are played by trans peeps. Third, the creator, Jill Solloway, has a trans parent and this show came from a place of realness. Fourth, she went out of her way to hire a trans writer for season two, which is actually the most important thing.
So I am going to give it a pass, personally.
Also, yeah, don't expect the story to center on Maura, it isn't supposed to.
First let's remember this, Transparent is just a TV show, it's not a documentary of any kind. As a TV show it does a decent job of capturing what it's like to some degree to be transgender in a broad sense. All of our transitions are unique and never really the same so it would be very hard to capture everything all in one characters experience as being trans. I can look at the show as a positive thing for the trans community as we are portrayed in a positive light for once. At first I was skeptical about Jeffery being cast as the lead instead of an actual trans actress but I got over that when I asked myself if I were an actress who was in her early stages of transition would I take that part where I was forever going to be seen in that stage of my transition? NO, NO, NO! oh gosh no and even now I would not want my transitional process captured on film. Even for a documentary I still wouldn't but there probably was someone who would have done it. I did wonder if without the "pull" of a named actor in the lead role would the show have even been made had it been made with a trans actress that nobody has heard of??? So once I got past that part the show was enjoyable and they DO have actual trans actors & actresses in the show although they only play secondary characters or are background extras which is still getting trans people visibility. Would I rather of had a trans actress in the lead role, yes but I'm still glad the show represents us in a positive light for once after we've been so grossly misrepresented in the past.
When I watched the show when it first came out on amazon prime there were things about it that I found depressing and triggering but my overall emotional state from watching the whole 1st season was hope. Jeffery did a pretty good job of capturing that moment when you finally start being yourself, I even found it refreshing to see how hard it was for Maura to tell her family that she is transgender. How many of us can relate to that internal struggle and not be moved to some degree seeing her going through the same thing of telling her family? The most depressing part of the show for me actually had NOTHING to do with being trans at all, not going to spoil that moment but seriously I was reduced to a blubbering mess of tears with how one person was treated by the family.
Hi folks :)
Discussing the film is fine, but advertising casting calls is not allowed
Hugs
V M
I strongly disagree with the objections to casting Jeffrey Tambor. Much of the show takes place before Maura goes full time. 100% of the show takes place before she makes any steps towards medical transition. I would say anywhere from like 1/3 to 1/2 of Tambor's screentime is in boymode. So can anyone suggest not only a trans actor in her 70's, but one who would be willing to portray herself as male presenting for that much time on screen?
Beyond that, this show was a huge risk to greenlight. It probably would have never been made and certainly would not have gotten as much attention without a big name like Jeffrey Tambor. So without casting him, the dozen or so trans actors in the show don't get hired. Zachary Drucker and Rhys Ernst don't get hired as producers without Tambor, nor does Our Lady J as a writer for season 2.
This [emoji115] a thousand times. It works. And Tambor is dedicated to the role, it still feels right. There are parts that are depressing, but I think it was great. It helped me come out. (And, gee, that's going great so far! [emoji12])
Can't wait for season 2.
I avoided watching this show for months, fearing that it would treat trans issues in a shallow or sensationalistic fashion. Despite having great respect for Jeffrey Tambor as an actor, I feared that no non-trans actor could ever capture the subtleties of being trans, and that no show on any major network could deal with trans issues in a realistic fashion.
Boy, was I wrong! Tambor was incredible (as was the entire cast), and the writing was so sensitive to the issues we all know too well that when I winced, it was because something hit too close to home. It never made me cry, exactly, but it made me nod, smile, laugh out loud, cringe, recognize myself, accept that all journeys are different, and feel like there is hope that the world will one day understand the path we walk. That's what art is supposed to do, right? (Those who are Jewish, which I'm not, will get even more out of it, since the family's relationship with Judaism is also explored extensively.)
That said, one of the most brilliant things about this series was that it treated trans issues within a robust context. And I especially appreciated that Maura was hardly portrayed as a saint. She has had real problems -- both trans-related and not -- and continues to deal with the fallout from them. These characters are not always attractive, but how many people do you know that are? That type of complexity, where there are no easy answers, and every answer raises ten more questions, is rare in television these days.
All of the characters are fully-formed, with their own story lines which bounce off of one another to create a show that explores trans issues the way we all do -- within the greater context of our own lives. If it had been all about Maura, and if she was portrayed as a victim of some sort, it would have been a much lesser achievement. And, my friends, this series is a very great artistic achievement, which just so happens to also model compassion for trans-folks to the world. Years from now it will be hailed as the moment when trans issues really found their voice within the culture -- in the way people look back at Ellen's coming out. I hope that Transparent has a very long run and that the stack of awards continues to grow (it has already won two Golden Globes).
There is no better way to bring our issues to a larger audience, and my only regret now is that it will have trouble finding that larger audience because it's only available (generally) to Amazon Prime members.
On a side note, it concerns me when I read "I haven't seen the show" followed by criticism of the casting. Actors who are good at their craft, which Tambor very much is, often find and reveal truths that would otherwise remain buried. His portrayal of Maura does just that, and he has spoken eloquently about his preparation and how deeply it affected him, and how it changed his view of our community. It shows in his performance. Perhaps there is a transwoman actor out there with the same chops, but I don't know of one. But I do know that the creator/producer, Jill Soloway, went out of her way to cast trans actors whenever possible, and is currently trying to make the show a training and seasoning ground for writers who are actually trans. (For those who haven't heard the story, Soloway's father came out as trans very late in life, just like Maura.)
So I bristle at "conceptual" criticisms which do not have the benefit of having seen Tambor's masterful performance, and the masterful writing, and the overall beauty of the series. (It's also very funny!) See the show!
Lora
Yeah, I've been steering away from watching it. I hate drama especially with conflict. That and horror. It literally causes me pain and I have to leave the house and go for a walk/drive.
If I do watch it, it will be on mute (with captions) while I'm busy doing something else.
I think 'True Trans' is far more relevant , just my opinion , not to be taken as anything other then a benign opinion.
I only saw the first episode. I agree with those who say that Tambor did well and the portrayal was accurate and sympathetic.
That being said, there's just the teeniest tiniest discomfort that Amazon is making millions off our struggle.
Quote[Tambor] has spoken eloquently about his preparation and how deeply it affected him, and how it changed his view of our community.
Lora, do you have a link to this? I'd love to read it.
(Great post, BTW. You've nailed what makes the show so good. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefiringline.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fsmile.gif&hash=2c5a4907e2673dfa63557696254abe82f5c9641e))
For me it brought up the most cringe-worthy events of transitioning and made me feel a little bit uncomfortable at first, but I soldiered through it and by the end I was a bit more of a fan than after the first 5 episodes. If anything the portrayal was a bit too slick, too easy. There was no way for any actor to portray the fear of getting beat up, there were few 'looks of disgust' from random people on the street, it was clearly set in today's world with trans issues being much more out in the public's mind, and not in the 80's when I did it. (This is a good thing, but made it seem 'too slick' to me).
The laughs were few and far between for me, but they were there. In all I think it was really more of a miss than a hit, and I'm not dying for the 2nd season to start. I kind of like that it made it on the popular screen in a way that wasn't too camp, kind of like 'boys don't cry'. I think that the dialog needs to continue and these attempts at mainstream-ing transgender stories are going to help in the long run to make it so others can be themselves without the danger and fear it made me feel back in the dark ages.
I too am a bit concerned amazon is making bank off of it, but as entertainment it seems to have its heart in the right place.
Quote from: Emily R on January 25, 2015, 04:56:49 PM
Stephanie: You pretty much could only see it on a computer as it is not broadcast on regular channels nor cable and only on the amazon website.
You can also watch on smart TVs, roku, game consoles, TiVo and other devices
Quote from: Emily R on January 25, 2015, 04:56:49 PM
Stephanie: You pretty much could only see it on a computer as it is not broadcast on regular channels nor cable and only on the amazon website.
I kind of agree with you in that Maura's role should have been played by a trans woman, unfortunately they probably would not have gotten the funding to do it with an unknown actor.
Elaina: Don't take me wrong, I love NOVA and most documentaries, but most people don't! They could have come up with a reality show concept where although not scripted but could be guided for things to happen they way that is convenient to the show producer. It takes a special kind of family to air of the transitioning and family opinions but it only takes one and I am sure there is one out there. I will say that is is not mine, as attractive as getting SRS, FFS, locally in the States by reputable experienced doctors and maybe cash could be.
TRANSITIONS: seems that the concept is interesting and I will definetely look for it, but it does not attract viewers to win Emmy's. Most of the viewers will have a personal interest, like us on Susans.
Emily
sorry, I much prefer watching Annie Lennox as Elvis
Tysilio,
After I finished watching the series, I just Googled "tambor transparent" and read all the press interviews he gave. The one in Rolling Stone makes for a good place to start:
http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/features/jeffrey-tambor-transparent-transgender-20141009
As for Amazon profiting from the trans community, given the quality of the work, I feel very generous. You get and you give. Amazon will profit from something, and if they choose to try and profit by spreading goodwill toward the trans community, well, I'm OK with that! If it were schlocky or unsympathetic or obvious profiteering, I would certainly feel different about it (see: Jerry Springer et. al.). But Transparent is nothing like that.
I have nothing against True Trans and the like. Those shows certainly have their place, as do the many YouTube video channels of people detailing their own experiences. But well-written fiction can sometimes get at important things that are hard to tease out of reality, where people tend to put on their best faces, often as a means of self-preservation. Reality is never as clean as "reality TV" would have it be, even in the world of TV documentaries.
If we're honest, we have to admit that professional storytellers, as keen outside observers, have an important role to play in introducing complex concepts like "transgender" to the larger world. They see things that we long ago ceased to see, or that we could never see because we're too close to the subject. They put words and images together which we could not, and craft stories which, while not true, contain Truth. They pick at scabs we would rather leave alone (such as Maura's tendency to buy the love of her children with money). They can help us see ourselves more clearly at the same time they introduce foreign concepts to the greater culture.
That is what I believe Jill Soloway (and staff) has done so well with Transparent.
Lora
I am really enjoying the show and it rings quite true, uncomfortably so at times.
It is written from a daughter's perspective (the show creator really does have a moppa) and I enjoy that Maura is probably the most stable person in her family. She is fine. The rest of them are nuts. I love it!
Because of the timeline, it makes sense that a cis actor is playing the role. It would be different if she had been on HRT for a while but the character is pre.
I think Tambor is doing a great job.
I can't wait to watch the final two episodes.
Here are the acceptance speeches at the GGs. I thought both were so beautiful.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dh7-jKohqEw
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E0doV->-bleeped-<-UfI
An important question to ask ourselves is why we might feel uncomfortable while watching this show. Why did I avoid it for so long, despite the fact that it got rave reviews? Why did I feel discomfort watching Maura trying to assert her female persona? Why did I sigh and nearly cry when Maura tucked her newly-purchased blouse into the garbage can? Why did the whole "trans camp" episode make my skin crawl, while also feeling so very essential to Maura's understanding of herself? Why did I feel the urge, more than once, to say to the TV, "But that's not me!" And why, in a moment that recalls Maura's new blouse, did I immediately delete the program from my Amazon viewing history?
These are rhetorical questions, of course. If there is any answer, it would only be that the show touched a raw nerve. It portrayed a character trying to navigate the same waters that we do, and not always doing it well. Maura has some downright clumsy moments (luckily, not played for laughs). It portrayed family issues which, while not exactly the same as the ones we all face, were similar enough to be recognizable -- even viscerally felt. It portrayed characters who were alternately shallow and terribly generous (as when Maura's daughter fiercely defended her use of the women's restroom, despite the fact that she was still trying to make any sense of what her father had only recently revealed, compared to when the children could not handle her stage performance and reverted one-by-one to dealing with their own personal issues).
When Maura went on stage in the drag show, I cringed. I would never do that (and you probably wouldn't either). But it was the perfect symbol for how it feels to be trans in the world, and it caught my fears of exposure and rejection exactly. It was truly painful to watch (and brilliantly scripted and acted). When Maura bumped into her former coworker, she handled the situation just as many of us might, though I wanted to scream, "Put your attitude away!"
My only point is to encourage those who turned away from this show to hang in there. Transparent is a lot like a good therapy session with a brutally honest therapist. That sort of experience is not pleasant, but often beneficial.
A couple of times I wondered where I should send my copay...
Lora
Sorry, just to play devil's advocate, would Al Jolson be acceptable in todays society
I had to look him up. You were referring to blackface? It's a good point, but don't think the two equate exactly because I do not think a trans woman playing a cis woman would be the same thing as a black woman playing a white woman. In fact, I think trans women should play cis women, that should be the goal, because otherwise it's all very othering. Like we aren't real women or something. I also don't think Jeffrey Tambor's performance is mocking at all like blackface performances used to be.
That all being said, if you cast a cis person to play a trans person, you are walking a fine line.
As an actor, the art is playing people different than you.
The "blackface" metaphor simply does not apply here.
In a minstrel show, a white performer uses garish makeup to create a cartoonish caricature of a black person in order to perform a certain repertoire in a specific, highly stylized, and horribly unflattering way. That was the gimmick, the attraction. Audiences understood a whole lot less about stereotyping, and what it meant to be respectful of other cultures. In large measure, the form evolved as a way to keep blacks from making grounds within the society. (And, as a side note, the implications to black employment were initially pretty much nil. Minstrel shows only existed at all because, at least initially, no one would ever even consider hiring an actual black performer to do such a thing, nor would any black performer want to be hired for that. Eventually, however, that changed, and minstrel shows did feature black performers.)
Casting Tambor as Maura is something much closer to what is known as "colorblind casting," in which the goal is to find the best performer for the role regardless of any arbitrary qualities that an actor does or doesn't have. It acknowledges that actors are hired to act -- specifically as someone they are not. That's all actors do, by the way: Pretend to be someone else, often someone who is nothing like them.
The merits of colorblind casting have been debated extensively, but the outcome -- the art -- is what generally gets the last word. As such, we should only really care whether Tambor was able to pull it off. As I have said above, I think he did it most beautifully.
Lora
Stephanie, I agree with Bunnybee -- the blackface analogy isn't a good one. Her point about the mockery involved in blackface is well taken, because it shows one of the ways in it's very different from what Soloway was doing in Transparent -- blackface is fundamentally dishonest. Do you want to say that actors should never play parts which are outside what they have personally experienced? That's pretty limiting. Everyone belongs to multiple subgroups: people can be divorced, high school dropouts, disabled, gay, veterans, felons, poor, Muslims... the varieties of human experience are endless. Should the actor playing Maura also have been a retired Jewish professor with messed-up kids? All of that, as well as being trans, is central to the character's experience, but no one has suggested that an actor should have all that history in order to play the role.
The craft of acting is to be able to enter the experience of many different kinds of people, and to make their feelings and lived experiences real. It isn't necessary to have had those experiences in real life to do that; it takes empathy, intelligence, talent, and a lot of skill and training. It has very little to do with having lived whatever-it-is in real life.
so the civil rights movement was about the style of clothes one wore
You lost me there.
I object to having people from Los Angeles being portrayed as selfish, shallow and sociopathic. Most people I encounter every day here are... wait, nevermind. :D
Quote from: Tori on January 26, 2015, 04:54:13 PM
You lost me there.
sorry , my days as a Hippi , I'm having flashbacks
Quote from: Tysilio on January 26, 2015, 04:07:20 PM
Stephanie, I agree with Bunnybee -- the blackface analogy isn't a good one. Her point about the mockery involved in blackface is well taken, because it shows one of the ways in it's very different from what Soloway was doing in Transparent -- blackface is fundamentally dishonest. Do you want to say that actors should never play parts which are outside what they have personally experienced? That's pretty limiting. Everyone belongs to multiple subgroups: people can be divorced, high school dropouts, disabled, gay, veterans, felons, poor, Muslims... the varieties of human experience are endless. Should the actor playing Maura also have been a retired Jewish professor with messed-up kids? All of that, as well as being trans, is central to the character's experience, but no one has suggested that an actor should have all that history in order to play the role.
The craft of acting is to be able to enter the experience of many different kinds of people, and to make their feelings and lived experiences real. It isn't necessary to have had those experiences in real life to do that; it takes empathy, intelligence, talent, and a lot of skill and training. It has very little to do with having lived whatever-it-is in real life.
as far as I know Al Jolson wasn't mocking anyone that was his play as a singer and besides isn't it mocking the transgender community to say there is none among you who is good enough to fill this role.
A transgender woman would have to not have started transition to play the role as written. The character of Maura is not on HRT.
I would like to see more trans folk get cast in trans roles for sure, but this one makes sense to cast a cis man.
Trust me, I am an actor, transition really limits my opportunities. I wish there were more trans roles out there. That said, I am fine playing male, female, alien and even animal roles. In fact, I have done all these things and more. Being limited to trans roles would get old.
Black face is an odd analogy. Sure, some shows were terribly racist, but painting a face black to play a black character was just a theatrical convention. It was common for white people to play black roles, like Shakespeare's Othello, by using makeup to change their race.
Times have changed.
Heck, in Shakespeare's time, he only used male actors to play all the roles even female. He had fun with this as did the audience. Imagine a guy playing a woman who spent a good portion of the play disguised as a man. That is much sillier than having a female play the role like we typically do it today.
Much Asian theatre to this day has men play all the roles.
We still have weird theatrical conventions. For example, night scenes have to be lit so people can see what is going on but they are usually lit in a blue hue to represent night time. Nobody thinks anything of it. In fact, a realistically lit night scene would distract the audience because it would be too dark.
You can't tell the Transparent story, with its flashbacks and whatnot, with a woman who is already transitioning or transitioned, without it being a distraction to much of the audience, although a good trans actor could surely pull it off. Would you be bothered by a trans woman having to play her younger male self? I could see that as bothering some in our community.
In fact, our community is very hard to please when it comes to trans stories being told on screen.
It is just acting. The best roles are the ones that make you stretch. Actors get paid because they can play people unlike themselves. I would not do it if I had to play myself every time I went on stage. I already do enough of that.
QuoteAl Jolson wasn't mocking anyone
That is an incorrect statement. All "blackface" was mocking black people. That was largely its purpose.
Lora
Quote from: translora on January 26, 2015, 08:37:30 PM
That is an incorrect statement. All "blackface" was mocking black people. That was largely its purpose.
Lora
it was the norm of the times it was like that in entertainment for quite a long time , I really doubt you can say he was mocking people . It started long before he came along
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface
I think you are misunderstanding the cultural heritage of blackface. Regardless of what was "the norm" or "popular" in entertainment, this history of the form is unambiguous. It was a degradation to a portion of society that the dominant population wanted to keep down. It was caricature. It was belittlement. And, yes, it was popular. Those days are gone, and that is
not the mechanism at work here. The analogy just doesn't fit.
From the article you linked:
QuoteStereotypes embodied in the stock characters of blackface minstrels not only played a significant role in cementing and proliferating racist images, attitudes, and perceptions worldwide, but also in popularizing black culture. In some quarters, the caricatures that were the legacy of blackface persist to the present day and are a cause of ongoing controversy.
If I thought for a moment that casting a straight actor as a trans character were in any way trying to caricature or belittle or stereotype or keep down the trans community, I would be right there with you in anger about it. (Frankly, that's one of the reasons I have great discomfort with the whole "drag" subculture.) But that is simply not the case here, and the analogy to blackface is just not applicable.
Should we object to gay actors being cast as straight characters (Neil Patrick Harris in
How I Met Your Mother)? Or straight actors being cast as gay characters (Eric McCormack in
Will and Grace)? There are, no doubt, transgender actors (still closeted) playing straight roles out there. Further, there are old actors playing young roles and vice versa. There are dumb actors playing smart people, and smart actors playing dumb people. Heck, there are even billionaire heiress actors out there playing fictional Vice Presidents (Julia Louis-Dreyfus).
My point is that when it comes to casting, you pick the best actor for the role in question. And "best" largely means the actor with the greatest chance of creating a full character which meets the expectation of the writers and producers. To cast any lesser actor as Maura would have been a crime, and could never have been justified simply because she was actually trans in real life. Any lesser actor would not have served the art as well, and, as such, done a distinct
disservice to the trans community.
I certainly hope that the day will come that a "transgender Meryl Streep" actor appears on the scene and can take us all to a new level. But that hasn't happened yet. And believe it or not, I think that Jeffrey Tambor's performance as Maura is actually a stepping stone in that direction.
Perhaps we will need to agree to disagree on this one...
Lora
:)
It is certainly not acceptable any more.
On a side note, minstrel shows, now known to be horribly racist, and the way people offensively talked like dumbed down African Americans stems from slavery, when slaves would talk dumb to their masters in order to mock THEM. So, in a sense, the white people in black face didn't realize they were also mocking the owner class when they would do those shows.
Also, black performers wore black face too.
Stage makeup is weird and it was not always realistic.
It is amazing to think that some of these things did not seem offensive to so many for so long, and now that history can be reviewed, it seems terrible.
Quote from: Tori on January 26, 2015, 10:49:34 PM
It is amazing to think that some of these things did not seem offensive to so many for so long, and now that history can be reviewed, it seems terrible.
Lots of things like this. If you want to know how to be on the right side of history, it's simple-history favors the empathetic.
Lately...
It also favors the victors, who write much of it.
Wellllll... that's true too lol.
I understand that the script wants a trans woman that has not been on HRT, but what about season 2? (yes, there will be a season 2) And if there would be another season, let's say 3? Is Maura always going to be on stage 0 of her transition? How is that normal?
And yeah I understand it's better to use a known person for a role, but Laverne Cox wasn't known much before orange is the new black...
I really loved the show, but I really wished there would have been a trans woman instead. He is a good actor, but it's not the same.
I really don't know if someone understood the blackface reference, of course it's not the same thing. And if a black person paints their face white, that's not racist... And some people can get offended because playing a jewish character if you are christian is not the same thing as playing a trans woman, it's so much different. Like for sexuality, gender is something that you can see, if you are playing a trans woman at stage 0 and she is probably not passable, then you can clock her, while you can't tell someone is gay just by stereotyping... Just with a black person, it's their skin color, you can see that. You can see from my picture that I am not white, if someone white painted their face my skin color to play a biracial person I would be offended, and I would have rather if they found a trans woman instead, and to show her transition, not like a documentary but still something. And you what I would been ok with anything else than someone holding male white and cis privilege. He doesn't go through discrimination.
And lots of black people were not hired for acting jobs because of discrimination before, I am not saying that this is what is happening now, but if we get into thinking that this is ok, then it will never change. No, it's not ok.
I think that trans women have a high unemployment rate already due to discrimination, and casting a white straight and cisgender men... Just can't be excused to me.
yes