I've been obsessing more and more about wether or not I'm passing; getting to a point where this is a private matter between myself and my close friends is what I'd ideally like. There are all of these instances where someone finds out (usually from me, honestly, because I assume everyone knows already) and seem so surprised; then, there are days where people stare at me and I just want to curl up in a ball and die. How do you know, for sure, if you are passing? Having that sense of security is very important to me, but I just can't see a way to know for certain. Posting pictures here is never any good; you all are amazing, but frankly I've seen more than a small number of blatant lies on the "do I pass" thread. I can't know for certain when I'm out in public, because I don't trust myself-I'm too sure of myself some of the time, and not sure enough others. I just don't want people laughing at me behind my back; I know a few people who tell me how they pass so well, but in actuality are being read CONSTANTLY, and are just oblivious.
How can I tell? Do you need to out yourself to someone before you know for sure?
I just want to add passing is like chasing a unicorn.
Its something pleasing to see but just never get to see.
Take your effort and just enjoy life as it is and comes.
Transition is a package. Mine is wrapped with newspaper.
Yours?
Hugs.
What do anonymous people gender you as you're just going about your life? And how do they treat you?
Once you start really getting out there and just living your life and actually interacting with the world, it should become apparent very quickly whether you pass or not. Hang out with female friends, go shopping, go to restaurants, and see if you hear people calling you "ladies." See if cashiers and bank tellers and the like call you "miss/ma'am." Listen for diminutive nicknames like "honey," "sweetheart," etc. And listen for gender-specific pronouns in conversations... if people call you "she" or "he." (Another thing that happens sometimes is that if someone isn't sure what your gender is, or if people's perceptions seem to be mixed, you often can hear people deliberately avoiding pronouns, using gender-non-specific language. It's uncommon, but it happens too.)
Also, pay attention to how people greet you. When I was first considering going full-time, and tended to be getting gendered both male and female depending on the perception of the person, just the speaking tone and body language of other people was a good indicator of whether they were gendering me male or female. When people are perceiving you as male, there's a sort of "repsect" that you'll get, kind of a "yes, you are a dominant male, I'm respecting your authority and your personal space and not getting too emotionally-connected with you" sort of attitude. Where women are greeted much more openly, with more pitch variation and inflection in the voice. And you'll be able to see guys doing this sort of "talking down to you" attitude, and women doing this sort of "openly greeting you like a friend" attitude. You can look for that.
This is all about just judging how other people are perceiving you, gauging their reactions.
Stares are honestly a bad way to do it. Because we tend to associate stares with "OMG that is a man in a dress, look at the freak," when in reality it could mean that people find you attractive, or are studying a unique body feature, or a unique appearance, or find your hairstyle interesting, or find your clothes interesting, or at worst are trying to figure out whether you're male or female because they aren't sure upon first glance. Tall cis girls get stared at all the time, as do very short people, as do people with a unique sense of style, as do beautiful people, as do ugly people, as do people with any sort of disability or any sort of feature that looks unique. People are curious. It doesn't mean they're misgendering you or judging you.
quote
Stares are honestly a bad way to do it. Because we tend to associate stares with "OMG that is a man in a dress, look at the freak," when in reality it could mean that people find you attractive, or are studying a unique body feature, or a unique appearance, or at worst trying to figure out whether you're male or female because they aren't sure upon first glance. Tall cis girls get stared at all the time, as do very short people, as do people with any sort of disability or any sort of feature that looks unique. People are curious. It doesn't mean they're misgendering you or judging you.
unquote
I went for dinner the other week to a new restaurant. I put on a new dress and looked at myself in the mirror 'Goddess I'm showing a lot of leg. So of course I put on the highest heels I have'
We went to dinner and the man I was with was nicely dressed and I felt awesome. As we walked to our table I was aware of the stares. I didn't even think whether I was 'passing', I knew the women were jealous and the men were 'lustful'.
I felt wonderful. Don't worry about stares, revel in them :o
If people stare at me (which doesn't happen that often) I presume it's because I'm tall and they're thinking "gee, that woman is tall" - not "that tall man is pretending to be a woman". :D
I've said it many, many, many times - passing is not just about how you look anyway. It's about presentation (how you dress, your hair, etc) and confidence. For some reason people can really sense when someone is nervous, it really draws their attention.
When people STOP staring at you...
The sooner one stops investing in how well they pass (in every sense of the word, not just how we use it here), the happier they will be.
I think the answer is you never really know for sure... and even if you do pass people might work it out one way or another. As the general populace come to realise that trans people are not the broad stereotypes they believed us to be then they come to know what the traits are that give us away. If someone already knows a few trans people they are going to work it out pretty quickly in most cases.
I think that Carrie listed out some pretty good ways that we can glean from the behavior of others whether or not we are passing - but we can never know for sure short of walking up and asking the person directly.
I find that attitude goes a long way toward passing. I am full time and I know that I have some undeniably male markers in my face that work to out me, but I also have a "screw them if they have a problem with me" attitude - and I find that people seem to ignore me now for the most part which is fine with me. I am living my life for me and I really don't care what others think or if they judge me - that's their problem, not mine. I lived for way too long caring what others thought about me - to the detriment of me.
As other people have said - they may be staring at you admiring something about your appearance - why assume they are staring for the worst reasons? Hold your head up high girl - you look very attractive - own it! :)
I find when I make new friends, after a while they're willing to tell me honestly whether they knew by looking at me that I was trans. Also look over the "you know you really pass when..." threads. If you pass, you'll find those sorts of things happen to you. If you find people assuming you're a straight woman, that normally means you pass.
Hope this helps.
Only one guy has ever come onto me, and that was six months ago. I can't tell if it's because I'm ugly or I look like a man...
So if random strangers gender you correctly, use the right pronouns, etc... does that mean that you pass? No, that just means they are using the correct words that fit your apperance and your presentation. Do they see you as a cisgender female, as this is what "pass" (I hate this word) would mean? Maybe yes, maybe no. I'm shure many transsexual women will be clocked by many people, but because most people are nice, they will still use the correct pronouns and everything, and wouldn't let you know anything about being clocked. Those who are not such a nice people will either stare at you, like you are an alien or something, or let you verbally know that they know that you were a man before, either by using the other pronouns, or intentionally calling you sir, or some worse words. So how do you know when you really really "pass" ? You just know. When you basically forget that you are trans, and noone will in any way remind you of your transsexual reality. And when you can go out in the store, or bank, or wherever without any make-up, with dishwashing ponytail hairstyle, and clothes that you wear when you feel sick and just wanna lay around and watch tv... and noone will stare at you, other than old creepy men that will stare at anything female..
I would say forget about the whole passing thing... You are a woman! You don't just try to "pass" or pretend as one. So go out in the world without even thinking about it. Based on your avatar photo, you are young and you even have nice facial features. Unless there is something seriously masculine about your body that would be clocking you, I think you shouldn't have any problems. And I'm not just being nice like most people in the "Do I pass" thread, I'm actually honest. If you still feel like your appearance doesn't match average cisgender, there are few craniofacial FFS surgeons who are able to help you with that.
The less you worry about passing the more you will pass.
I live in a rural area, and the closest town has less than 15k people. I am in the middle of america --"The Heartland". I find that when I am out in my area people stare a LOT. Mainly the old male farmers. I think they just have not been exposed to trans at all in RL and I would venture to guess that their only perception of trans is a skewed one from television/media/porn, etc.
If I go 40 miles south to a city of 115k, virtually no one stares, and nearly everyone genders me as I present: a woman.
If I were to go off of the reception from my town I would be unnecessarily putting myself in non-pass category. But, if I go off of the reception in the city where I work, then I pass gloriously based on those metrics. However, I think it has been said in this thread a few times: I do not care what any of them think, so I hold my head high, ignore rude people (my wife will verbally attack them for me, anyway :) ), and only pay attention to the people that treat me with respect. Therefore, I pass quite well.
I am a brutally honest person thought I have to tone it down here sometimes so I will, this once, apply my normal brutal honesty and tell you this: based on your pictures you pass. You pass 100%. If we met on the street, unless you had some very masculine trait or voice, I would have zero reason to think you're anything but a ciswoman.
I bull you no ->-bleeped-<-e.
I used to be a firm believer that you can never know for sure, but my female alter has convinced me otherwise in the 6+ years since she became self aware.
She and I live separate lives. No one in either of our worlds knows us both and none of her friends knows our System's body is biologically male. It is impossible for me to conceive that her cisgender girlfriends' conservative "southern gentlemen" husbands would give her a hug and kiss on the cheek if they did.
Infants and small children are painfully honest. They learn at a very early age how how to tell the Mama from the Not the Mama. They simply do not come up to me the way they do my female alter- let alone the fact that their Moms don't bat an eye when they do. I wouldn't even think of touching a child in public for fear of a mother lion's rage at the threat to her cubs.
Wearing her bikini at the beach. No way I would get a bye if I did that.
Overall the statistics are overwhelming. In 5000+ hours out and about living her life as a woman, there were only two times (both within the first 6 months) that my female alter was ever misgendered. I have put her under every possible situation to fail and she comes through time and time again. There is no question in my mind; people see her as a cisgender woman.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 02, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
There are all of these instances where someone finds out (usually from me, honestly, because I assume everyone knows already) and seem so surprised;
I think that is your answer right there. If you tell people and they are surprised, then you pass. I agree with the other that stares don't necessarily mean you are not passing. It could be because you are tall, or attractive, or something else.
I mean people call me ma'am and miss without me telling then I am a woman, and no one ever stops me from using the proper restroom I am pretty sure I pass. There doesn't need to be more thought out into it than that.
I've been pretty active within the trans "community" since 1982, been involved in lots of support groups, been politically active at times, and personally known many, many trans women over the decades. And I've seen the way some people treat trans women, and it can be ugly.
It is a sad state of affairs that teenage boys and young men tend to be openly hostile when they recognize a woman as transsexual. Especially if you encounter teenagers or young men in groups. Their hostility can be felt; sometimes they'll say nasty things under their breath, make cruel observations to each other loud enough for everyone around them to hear.
For those who stand out as openly trans, every now and then they will encounter shop clerks, waiters, young men, etc. who make a show of expressing disgust or disapproval. If that just never happens, odds are pretty good that you're blending in as a woman among women pretty well.
For a few years there was an openly transsexual woman in the pool league that I play in. There were a few players who openly refused to play with her because she was a transsexual. She was actively excluded from most all-female tournaments because several women threatened to boycott the events if she was allowed to play. And this is in the very liberal City of Portland.
If these sort of things just never happen to you, then you probably blend in pretty well as a woman among women.
There are just some people who can't help themselves from imposing their bigotry on others, and openly transsexual women are bound to run into such people from time to time. If it just never happens to you, then you most likely blend in pretty well as a woman among women.
Just sayin'.
I mean I don't really care about misgendering anymore. I brush it off.
I would like to pass though. I think I do to some degree when dressed properly.
Violence? I carry and I have training and I avoid trouble spots when I can. But it is a very real concern especially as a trans woman of color.
But when presenting F I don't get as much as a second look. Even up where I live which is kind of a pretty old fashioned not really progressive area even though we are just barely in the NYC metro area.
The answer to your question is this? Does it matter? Go live your life and don't worry. You know who you are, and that's all that matters. What would you be hoping for? Be invited out with some girlfriends for bra fittings, sex toy parties or something? Even though I have had all kinds of facial surgery that I am sure has impacted my quality of life, I can see now many years later that I don't really think it matters. With enough time, hormones and living in one's new gender, blending in is possible. I have seen others who only did srs and are living happy fulfilling lives, just flitting around the world doing their own thing. Live your life and never for one second waste a single brain cell wondering what the next person thinks about you, because it's probably not what you are going to be thinking anyways.
Seriously, I don't read minds and have no clue what people are really thinking, but the day I stopped worrying about it, there was a marked change in my outlook and demeanor. As far as I was concerned, I was just like every other woman out there. I passed to myself, and that was all that mattered. That was almost two years ago.
Sometimes people are speechless when I tell them I'm trans now, and they can't all be great actors and liars, right?
I will second this, last night when I was doing my grocery shopping in almost dude mode. I had a bit of make up but wearing pretty andro winter coat and a snow boot when to my surprise even up close the cashier addressed me as ma'am and miss. Even today, when I was waiting for my food at our cafeteria the waitress even asked me "are you Jen?" This happened when I am not giving any effort at all.
Stop worrying about passing Andro and just live your life. You are beautiful end of discussion :)
Quote from: ImagineKate on February 03, 2015, 10:08:05 AM
The less you worry about passing the more you will pass.
I am probably less concerned with passing than many here. I want all the femininity that I feel inside to be seen on the outside, but I will not blend in just for the sake of blending in. I am very tall, and the sound advice would be to avoid heels, but I absolutely love heels. And my fashion choices don't suggest that I want to get lost in a crowd. I have spent my entire life feeling invisible as a male. I won't to be that way as a female. I didn't destroy my entire life, not to build the new one exactly as I feel is authentic.
I had an experience recently worth repeating. I do community counselling and I meet most of the girls at a coffee shop that I like. I also go there alone for the killer hot chocolate they make.
Some of the girls present in male mode, some as female.
The manageress came to my table when I was alone and asked if she could talk to me. Of course I said yes.
She said she was so happy that I felt comfortable bringing transgender women to her place, and wanted to tell me that if any customers ever gave my 'clients' any grief to let any staff member know and they would deal with it.
She then asked how I got involved in this counselling? I told her I was a transgender woman who wanted to help her sisters. Her shock was total and obvious.
I asked why she was so surprised? You are so natural and obviously female, you are just a normal woman! I never knew, OMG moment was all over her. So why do the girls I bring look trans? I asked?
Well some are physically obvious, but they are all so nervous. They don't fit in with other women.
So maybe confidence and confidence are valid reasons? Yes I said confidence twice!
Just my recent experience, oh and I got a free hot dark chocolate. Mmmm,mmmm
I had one of those moments a few days ago; there was a look of shcok on the girl's face when I mentioned it, it must have been there for three or four seconds! I love those moments-although I don't think I'll be able to rest until nobody can tell.
I don't pass but if I was to say from your photo (it's all I've got to go on ;D) then I'd say you're doing fine.
All the advice here is great, maybe a change of perspective would help.
If you go to your town centre on a Saturday then you could easily pass 200 people, out of all of them how many of them bother to look at you? 10? - 30?
Some of them will be after your loose change for their bucket or hat. Some will be trying to avoid bumping into you. Others will either be admiring your clothes (or slating them). None of them will give your gender a seconds thought...
That's probably whittled it down to 3 - 5 , out of them one will be thinking of a scam to bleed cash from you, how many strangers are left??
Now that I've typed all that do you really care what 1 or 2 random strangers think anyway ;)
Quote from: Jayne on February 06, 2015, 07:45:40 AM
I don't pass but if I was to say from your photo (it's all I've got to go on ;D) then I'd say you're doing fine.
All the advice here is great, maybe a change of perspective would help.
If you go to your town centre on a Saturday then you could easily pass 200 people, out of all of them how many of them bother to look at you? 10? - 30?
Some of them will be after your loose change for their bucket or hat. Some will be trying to avoid bumping into you. Others will either be admiring your clothes (or slating them). None of them will give your gender a seconds thought...
That's probably whittled it down to 3 - 5 , out of them one will be thinking of a scam to bleed cash from you, how many strangers are left??
Now that I've typed all that do you really care what 1 or 2 random strangers think anyway ;)
Poopie as ever tells the truth!
Quote from: Cindy on February 06, 2015, 06:51:00 AM
oh and I got a free hot dark chocolate. Mmmm,mmmm
From Your lips straight to Your hips. Uhuh. ;)
Quote from: Cindy on February 06, 2015, 07:48:10 AM
Poopie as ever tells the truth!
It's just a matter of asking the right questions.
Or as they say on Babylon 5, it's all a matter of perspective.
Take yer pick
Quote from: Zumbagirl on February 04, 2015, 08:41:59 PM
The answer to your question is this? Does it matter? Go live your life and don't worry. You know who you are, and that's all that matters. What would you be hoping for? Be invited out with some girlfriends for bra fittings, sex toy parties or something? Even though I have had all kinds of facial surgery that I am sure has impacted my quality of life, I can see now many years later that I don't really think it matters. With enough time, hormones and living in one's new gender, blending in is possible. I have seen others who only did srs and are living happy fulfilling lives, just flitting around the world doing their own thing. Live your life and never for one second waste a single brain cell wondering what the next person thinks about you, because it's probably not what you are going to be thinking anyways.
Yes. That is also my conclusion. Passing is meaningless to me. All of my friends, students and colleagues who I interact with everyday know who I am, and those are the people who are most important to me, together with my family.
Of course, strangers in the street recognize me as a woman at first, but sometimes I intentionally reveal my manly voice to repel those too strong stares from unpleasant redneck-like men. They immediately turn their head.
Regarding stare, everyday I attract attentions of both women and men, whether I am in my hometown or in other countries.
It is my destiny. I sometimes can enjoy it. I like women's stare, and hate men's.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/16457130285_917a4052c0_o.jpg) (https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7414/15834619894_12737e816a_c.jpg) (https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7463/15628181654_05448911ae_b.jpg)
barbie~~
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 03, 2015, 09:57:33 AM
Only one guy has ever come onto me, and that was six months ago. I can't tell if it's because I'm ugly or I look like a man...
[/quote
Honey, you're very pretty. So stop doubting yourself.
hugs.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 06, 2015, 07:30:22 AM
I had one of those moments a few days ago; there was a look of shcok on the girl's face when I mentioned it, it must have been there for three or four seconds! I love those moments-although I don't think I'll be able to rest until nobody can tell.
I mean, that's a pretty high bar for most trans girls. I will rest once I don't give a crap anymore which is like now.
Don't any of you worry about the long-term consequences of being unable to pass though? Worrying about people on the street is pretty pointless (unless they want to kill me), but what about finding a job or getting passed up for a promotion? What about finding a romantic partner you actually like (as opposed to dating people you dislike because they're all you can get, like I'm doing now)?
Personally, I do hate it when people stare, but that's not what really bothers me, what bothers me is what those stares imply: That this is going to follow me around for the rest of my life, that I am male and my body is male (they see me as such), and that my quality of life is never going to be a good one because people will always treat me badly. It is a fact that if you are visibly trans, your life is going to be lonelier, less prosperous, and more dangerous than if you are able to pass. Just look at the suicide statistics for people who aren't visible vs people who are. I know it's hard to admit the importance of something many of us are never able to do, but we live in a hostile world, and passing may be the only way to have a good life in it.
You might be surprised how female you are. I don't have a great opinion on my passability within 20 feet but last week I had to go out as a guy through an airport (don't ask) and I was read more than a few times as a woman. That's in baggy jeans, baggy shirts, hooded leather coat and a baseball cap on. Other than shaving my head and putting a fake beard on I can't man it up much more.
The point is, if people read you as female when you are going as a guy then think how it is when you are out as a woman. Looking at your pic I'd have to believe that you would easily be read female while trying to pass as male.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 06, 2015, 10:00:57 AM
I know it's hard to admit the importance of something many of us are never able to do, but we live in a hostile world, and passing may be the only way to have a good life in it.
I was delaying the start of my transition for 10 years (14-24), because of not being 100% shure that I can be seen only and only as cis female. Once I finally realized how silly I was, all my imaginary problems and barriers I forced in my head quickly faded away, and I was able to start with my transition. So yes, being passable to the level of being seen only as cis, was the most important thing for me. Living a life of hiding myself, or going around scared or uncomfortable, or worrying about anyone starring at me because I'm trans, or get treated badly anyhow because of that, was not an option.
And did you manage it? How did you manage it?
I'm lucky to say I had a really smooth transition.. If I only knew that years before, instead of putting myself down all the time and imagining countless reasons for why I can't or I shouldn't. FFS was the icing on a cake, mainly just for me to be happy other than for anything else. The biggest issue were and still are my make-up skills, as I seem to be more happy and more confident without any make-up, and I still lack a lot of practice.
I was afraid you'd say that, since I'm never going to be able to afford ffs.
Some of the problem is that "passing" has different meanings to different people. For me as long as I can fit someone on the cis-gender female spectrum, that is passing. I do need to spend time here and there where I can reflect and observe how vastly broad the cis-gender spectrum is. I need to keep it in perspective, because it is easy to compare oneself to the idle model of beauty, or even just average. I see this as a problem all women struggle with and not just trans women.
In terms of jobs and relationships, I feel that confidence and self esteem matter much more than looks. People very quickly pick of self doubt. The opposite is true as well. People are attracted to confidence. That is not easy to change, but faking self confidence is the path to real confidence.
As other have said. From your various profile photos, I think your hot, and I would never guess you are trans. And I am not lying about that.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 02, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
I've been obsessing more and more about wether or not I'm passing; getting to a point where this is a private matter between myself and my close friends is what I'd ideally like. There are all of these instances where someone finds out (usually from me, honestly, because I assume everyone knows already) and seem so surprised; then, there are days where people stare at me and I just want to curl up in a ball and die. How do you know, for sure, if you are passing? Having that sense of security is very important to me, but I just can't see a way to know for certain. Posting pictures here is never any good; you all are amazing, but frankly I've seen more than a small number of blatant lies on the "do I pass" thread. I can't know for certain when I'm out in public, because I don't trust myself-I'm too sure of myself some of the time, and not sure enough others. I just don't want people laughing at me behind my back; I know a few people who tell me how they pass so well, but in actuality are being read CONSTANTLY, and are just oblivious.
How can I tell? Do you need to out yourself to someone before you know for sure?
I've recently (on accident) came up with a great exercise that will be invaluable later on when "passing" is something I have to confront. It started while looking at random news articles and I said to myself "Pretend I was just told that one of the women on this page of photos is a transwoman and I need to choose which one she is" and I looked... they almost
all looked trans to me. I told my wife the same thing when watching tv and, sure enough, nearly every woman I saw looked trans.
Now, when I go to the store, I play a mental "spot the transwoman" game and
every single woman looks trans when I'm actually questioning it. It's bizarre but it proved to me that expectations change perspective so much that anybody could look trans if it were suggested. This is why I have a hard time judging on the "do I pass" threads because, if it were out of context and just pictures I saw online or Facebook, it wouldn't even occur to me that these women might be trans.
So later on when I'm concerned about passing, I'll remember that. If you don't give a person a reason to expect a transperson in their midst, it probably won't cross their mind. This applies to you, as well. You
know you were born with penis so you are automatically looking for a transwoman when you look in the mirror. If you can somehow stop that, you would probably just see a normal (albeit very attractive) woman.
If I saw your photo anywhere else aside from a web forum
specifically for transgender people, I wouldn't even second-guess it.
It's a hard thing to get out of your head but it just might be the trick. Next time you go to town, play "spot the transgender" and you probably won't see an actual cisgender looking person all day. It's weird but it works.
Maybe I'm missing something important, but I seems to me the issue is more living than passing. Abysha is correct, all women cis or trans are a blend of characteristics both masculine and feminine. I'm a lousy example, because passing is something I do rather than something I worry about. I live my life a woman. I expect to be recognized as a girl, and I am. Whether or not someone really thinks about it or not isn't something I have much control over. What I can control is how I express how I feel about myself. When I am okay with me then I am fine, when I'm not I'm insecure. My avatar picture was taken Monday morning I think. Is that a girl looking out at you?
Look, I'm sixty two years old. I am single, I date, I have friends and lovers. Does that mean I pass. As far as can be meaningfully described it does. I don't hide being a transgendered person. My boyfriend is fine with it, my kids and grandkids are fine with it. I am Julie and I think she is pretty cool. To the people I meet or talk to in a casual way I am she, her, and mamm. Once in a while I get sirred. Then I take no offense and gently correct them or not as my whimsy declares.
You are beautiful and once you allow yourself to live in that beauty the essence of passing is complete.
Peace,
Julie
The issue of relationships - unless you plan to lie to your partner or lie by omission you're not going to be able to get the same set of guys that a cis woman would get. Some people don't want to date even cis passable trans, and some people want a partner to have kids with. So that narrows the pool somewhat.
I'm going to have to disagree with you slightly, Kate! I'm dating a wonderful man who has been exclusively with women and he's a catch! However, you're completely correct about not getting the same pool of guys a cisgendered woman would get.
Passing is a very important thing. I suppose the only way to truly know is to evaluate how you are treated by strangers and interested men. Or simply ask!
Quote from: ZeldaHeartLove on February 06, 2015, 04:42:10 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you slightly, Kate! I'm dating a wonderful man who has been exclusively with women and he's a catch! However, you're completely correct about not getting the same pool of guys a cisgendered woman would get.
Passing is a very important thing. I suppose the only way to truly know is to evaluate how you are treated by strangers and interested men. Or simply ask!
What I meant was that some people would never date a trans girl no matter what and no matter how passable. Sure you can do it if you're stealth but what if he wants children?
The point is that the pool has already been narrowed. Why worry? Just live
I gave up worrying about when I realised that it was a fools game that had no winners. I can't read minds, so therefore I have no real idea what people are thinking, so why worry about it? But as others have said, confidence seems to be the key.. Own who you are and others will follow.
Quote from: ZeldaHeartLove on February 06, 2015, 04:42:10 PM
Passing is a very important thing. I suppose the only way to truly know is to evaluate how you are treated by strangers and interested men. Or simply ask!
Passing may be important to you, but it's not the goal for everyone..
And here's a humorous, you know you pass when:
You are in a class of 20 people who don't know and the trainer who does know can't get your gender straight.. The looks of confusion when he called me a he were a good sign I was passing - or the woman I got to know on that course, she'd just assumed I was a somewhat butch lesbian.. I thought she'd worked it out..
QuotePassing is a very important thing. I suppose the only way to truly know is to evaluate how you are treated by strangers and interested men. Or simply ask!
I mean, strangers are never super friendly to me, and NO men ever seem to be interested...what does that mean? If I was passing and was attractive, wouldn't guys ever hit on me? Why doesn't that happen?
Andro, I feel your pain but you have to live. Today, I was out with my friend strolling around the cold streets of Toronto. I even went to stores i.e. Zara, Gap etch and even ordered food up real close and no one bothered me and this has been going on for weeks.
Now I can attribute this confidence to the daily conversations I have with friends, this community and my therapist.
Andro, you have to be secured about yourself and who you are. Don't you get tired what others think about you.
What they think about you is their business. You are a woman period. :)
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 06, 2015, 05:22:46 PM
I mean, strangers are never super friendly to me, and NO men ever seem to be interested...what does that mean? If I was passing and was attractive, wouldn't guys ever hit on me? Why doesn't that happen?
Is the friendliness problem exclusive of gender? Maybe that's part of the issue. I had a lot of problems interacting with people, I found that a few changes went a long way and now it's really easy to make friends.
From your pictures I really don't see the problem, so that leads me to believe it is elsewhere. I don't know you personally so I can't judge your personality.
I really hope you find your zen.
passing is mostly about attitude... remember cis-woman come in all shapes and sizes.. so are super model pretty others not so much... some are petite and some are large boned and actually have some masculine features... so this requirement we have in our heads to look like barbie dolls is basically bull.
But saying that some tips... dress your age.. note what woman in your age group wear... dress to the occasion..e.g. women don't wear fancy evening dresses to the supermarket or the mall with lots of makeup etc.. also makeup women tend to wear less makeup during the day than the evenings.
sit with the you legs closed or cross your legs... and something i noticed.. women often straighten their dresses before sitting.
learn to walk in heels... heel first then the flat part of your foot hits the ground... and don't over sway your hips.
little things can make you pass.. these can be learnt by watching other women... just don't stalk them. plus if you on hrt and have breasts.. people should see you as a woman..
3 quick things to help us pass which we can all do..
Shave your legs and arms
wear nail polish
grow you hair
You will be surprised how girly you can look with long hair with a band or maybe curl your hair a bit..
I pass without trying nowadays as I've mentioned before. It's my combination of no facial hair, cheekbones, longer hair, and earrings that I think people/strangers take note of. From the neck down I don't wear what would be considered female clothing by a longshot. Even butch lesbian friends of mine have told me so. ;D I guess it's the fact that I stopped caring about what people think. I used to be a real "tough guy" but now I've turned kind of soft. 8)
Think of it this way. Bottom line peoples actions towards you. Does the phrase - "actions speak louder than words."
Like having a StarBucks barista you've never seen before greeting you with, "what can get for you honey bunch?" Then an hour later realizing he wrote "Enjoy! :)" on the tumbler side.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1289.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb516%2Fusnmaster%2FDSC02620_zpsr26r1auq.jpg&hash=48cf089de29f9de5a4aba11912335f3caa871024)
^^ Like that! Although the smiley rubbed off before I realized it. ;D
Experiencing all sorts of little head games like the above that you find guys play on girls. Even though I identify as lesbian, it's still something about me that must be 'right.'
- Doors being held open with a smile.
- Being called "sweetheart" or "sweety" by other women. Such as trying to pass in between you and a clothing rack you get a, "sorry sweety ^-^ (followed by a friendly touch on the arm and points where she's reaching too) thanks."
- Seeing counter employee's you've regularly interfaced with a year before your transition totally-not-recognizing you and addressing you as "Ms." or "Mam." Those really crack me up.
- When visiting your brothers wife in the hospital and her having mistakenly outing you to her nurse who asked, "she's beautiful"..."is she his sister?" And her telling you later on that the nurse couldn't believe you where (or was) a guy. "Oh yeah..., hmm hmmm that's-a-dude..." And yes we had a conversation about mistakes as well. She's on some serious MS pain killing meds direct in her spine, so I forgave her. ;D
- ... and so on.
All of these interactions are genuine and sincere. You're seen as a female and interacted as such.
For me I knew I was passing when the stress thinking about passing finally diminished. Diminished to the point where it was no longer a signal I could latch onto in the space of white noise I was listening to. And life is full of noise. Being read and seen as female was much louder and smothered any signal of doubt. The internal question "Am I passing?" becomes out of sight and out of mind. No further cognitive dissonance or lying to myself about it. It's unbelievably emotionally liberating.
Evelyn-Yeah. I'm happy for you, but very sad reading this because I worry I may never have this in my own life. I don't get any of that. Ever. I have literally never had even one of those experiences, and, as much as I dislike this whole notion of "chivalry", in it's sexist nonsense, getting some of that stuff every now and again would be pretty darn validating. What does that mean then? I still don't pass? Two years on hrt, two long years of stares, breakdowns, and utter misery, and I am never going to be any sort of woman? Probably. So...I'm sorry for keeping this post dragging on, but it's all I can think about-how do I get there? What can I do to get to that point? I'd really, really appreciate any advice anyone has to offer.
To everyone who keeps telling me not to care: I simply can't. I don't care about strangers, not in the abstract, although I did spend the majority of last night seriously contemplating suicide or detransitioning (a far worse fate) because I had gone out for the day and I couldn't handle all of the stares. But I care about how this is influencing my personal life. I'm lucky to be in an accepting community at school for now, but when that ends, I might wind up totally alone, and unemployed. I'm in a relationship with someone I have literally no interest in simply because nobody else has shown a sliver of interest, and I don't want to spend all of my time alone. I'm going into a very competitive field, and if people know I'm trans before I become established, my career could be finished before it begins. So in theory, I do not care very much about how strangers treat me. What I care about is that it's a sign of the fact that I am an outcast who has no place in society, that this is going to follow me around for the rest of my life, and that, despite the struggle I've been through, I am a man. I should have been a woman, not a trans woman. Until other people agree with me when I say I am female, I personally do not think I can consider myself that.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 08, 2015, 05:08:10 PM
Until other people agree with me when I say I am female, I personally do not think I can consider myself that.
And here's the fly in the ointment.
Until you own the fact you are a woman, few will see you as one - the confidence that comes from having a firm grip on your identity is priceless..
That is not true. I am sorry, but that is simply not true. People treat me just as badly when I'm feeling confident. It's a pleasent notion, that 90 percent of passing is confidence, because that's something you can easily control. It's simply not true. You may not mind that people are treating you badly, or you may be unaware of that, but passing is NOT about how you see yourself, it is about how you appear. I cannot do this because I am simply not able to face a reality where I tell everyone I am female, and believe it, but they either tell me I am wrong or agree just because it's the polite thing to do.
I don't know for sure if I pass and likely never will. I hope you would consider that not caring is, of course, a too simple answer but caring about others and yourself in a loving way goes a long way toward feeling better. I sure hope you feel better. Our expectations really can color our experience.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 08, 2015, 05:38:26 PM
That is not true. I am sorry, but that is simply not true. People treat me just as badly when I'm feeling confident. It's a pleasent notion, that 90 percent of passing is confidence, because that's something you can easily control. It's simply not true. You may not mind that people are treating you badly, or you may be unaware of that, but passing is NOT about how you see yourself, it is about how you appear. I cannot do this because I am simply not able to face a reality where I tell everyone I am female, and believe it, but they either tell me I am wrong or agree just because it's the polite thing to do.
Let me put it another way then, if you don't see yourself as a woman, why the hell should anyone else? And I love the assumption that people treat me badly..
I never said appearance wasn't part of the answer.. It is, clearly.. But as someone who looks far more masculine than you, I'd have to say that isn't your issue.
You're pretty queer in your presentation, which always brings stares. As someone who mostly gets perceived as AFAB and cis - I have met people who've just known. There wasn't anything I'd done or said, they'd just known. There is only so much you can do to control how other people perceive you. Generally if people are surprised when you disclose being trans then you got read as cis.
Andro, the key to happiness is to be at peace of who you are. I have been working in a corporate environment for many years now and ever since I came out to my colleagues I have gained their respect and confidence.
Don't deny who you are. I don't care if they know me as Trans or not, I am confident and when people smell that from you. They won't mess with you. How do you carry yourself? Do you walk with your head up or down? When people look at me I look at them in the eye until they get uneasy. Be brave this is not for the faint of heart.
At the end of day, if you decide to de-transition you are still a woman. You have just taken a different path and I respect you for that xo
Much Love,
April
AndrogynousPainter, I agree with Dread_Faery.
Your presentation does look queer. I mean purple hair? You *are* going to be stared at because it's rare to see these days. And it will immediately make others draw assumptions about you based on this queer association. I understand trying to appear unique, but this uniqueness brings closer scrutiny (and consequently further inspection) to yourself which is what you are experiencing.
Passability wise you actually translate as your screen name implies. You look androgynous.
Imagine the following scale with 4M being the most intensely masculine face, 0 being androgynous (it's nearly impossible to tell either or), and 4F being the most intensely soft and feminine.
4M -- 3M -- 2M -- 1M -- 0 -- 1F -- 2F -- 3F -- 4F
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi58.tinypic.com%2F2e546d1.jpg&hash=bbb1f446499a87aaf66ae9d75ab92df9b0cbee31) 4M (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi60.tinypic.com%2Fv8djj6.jpg&hash=46c899725d7c4095792cfe60687e8068d2211874) 0 (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi57.tinypic.com%2Faeut5e.jpg&hash=f748f8d9be399bd5a36ceda49bffa0292a4145f5) 4F
To me, you appear to be at the center 0 of this scale. Truly androgynous. Isn't this close to your transition goal?
You know AP, androgyny can be just as beautiful in its own right. Come with me and have quick look at this tumblr for inspiration
http://dappertomboy.com/archive
Barring FFS and other drastic measures, in your opinion is there anything wrong with embracing what you have, and rocking it like what the above tumblr is doing?
Again, androgyny can be beautiful. I think it's a matter of changing your perspective. For instance I went into transition with open mindedness, forgiveness and acceptance. If I eventually achieved androgyny - then I'll happily live androgynously. If I achieved femininity - then I'll live femininely. But I won't cross my passing boundaries too far in either direction, because I know that will only raise eyebrows. I'm happy with what I have so far - just being the best version of me. And I'm OK with that.
Eh. I like the androgynous look, but it is attracting too much of the wrong attention. I am ready to move past it-I'd like to look female, first and foremost, because that's what I am-albiet a queer one.
To look more female I'd grow your hair out, color your hair something natural, and give yourself say 6 months to grow using extensions on other spots for awhile if you have to. Your skin is soft I don't see any "hair used to be there" areas you look really soft. Browse that tumblr I think you'll find some pretty hot ideas on what to do with your look and features.
And some other stuff here
http://shewasatomboy.tumblr.com/archive/
You got this AP. Take care. :)
I think you're passing already, certainly from your profile pic I see a queer woman, but society tends to read queer women as masculine and I think that might be what you're picking up on. It could explain why you feel you aren't passing, but why people are surprised when you tell them.
I think you and I are quite similar, and I know I certainly went through a period of hard femme, girly-girl aesthetic because it meant I wasn't read as masculine - even though in the end I got fed up of being read as cishet and have now queered up my presentation into something I just wouldn't have had the assurance to do 5 years ago.
It's not like confidence, but rather a case of knowing myself, and it was reinforced by the world to the point where I don't question it anymore and stopped caring about passing or not. It's like a jedi mind trick, the less you think about it, the more it happens. And when people do question it - because it totally happens, even to cis girls - you're a hell of a lot calmer and able to judge whether you want to disclose or make a joke of it. Last time it was intrusive and rude I was just like "Give me a moment, I'll check - Nope, got tits and a c**t, definitely a girl" person asking inappropriate questions was embarrassed and harangued by other members of the group for being rude.
Quote from: ZeldaHeartLove on February 06, 2015, 04:42:10 PM
Or simply ask!
Yes, it seems a good idea, but have you ever asked?
barbie~~
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 08, 2015, 07:20:15 PM
Eh. I like the androgynous look, but it is attracting too much of the wrong attention. I am ready to move past it-I'd like to look female, first and foremost, because that's what I am-albiet a queer one.
My friends and colleagues like me for what I do and talk, not for what I look like.
Regarding strangers in the street, you may wear rather plain clothes and keep a rather unnoticeable hair style. The purple hair will easily attract unsolicited attention.
barbie~~
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 02, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
I know a few people who tell me how they pass so well, but in actuality are being read CONSTANTLY, and are just oblivious.
Yes, happens a lot, this kind of selfdelusion. Thank god you know them in 3d because this kind of 'I pass so well, I'm 100% stealth' whereas they don't pass at all is really rampant on MTF forums.
Quote from: Dahlia on February 10, 2015, 05:11:51 AM
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 02, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
I know a few people who tell me how they pass so well, but in actuality are being read CONSTANTLY, and are just oblivious.
Yes, happens a lot, this kind of selfdelusion. Thank god you know them in 3d because this kind of 'I pass so well, I'm 100% stealth' whereas they don't pass at all is really rampant on MTF forums.
If someone passes or not is their personal business, and no one elses. End of story. I don't want to see posts like this on this forum again.
I agree with Susan. Be who you want to be. Live and let live maybe it be the person is delusional or not.
Goodness, a lot of hatred is already geared toward us - we don't need hate in our community.
Just saying,
Love,
April
Quote from: Ms Grace on February 03, 2015, 05:30:09 AM
I think the answer is you never really know for sure... and even if you do pass people might work it out one way or another. As the general populace come to realise that trans people are not the broad stereotypes they believed us to be then they come to know what the traits are that give us away. If someone already knows a few trans people they are going to work it out pretty quickly in most cases.
But, thankfully, if that person is lucky enough to know a few trans people, odds are, they're an ally.
Quote from: ImagineKate on February 03, 2015, 03:21:41 PM
...Even up where I live which is kind of a pretty old fashioned not really progressive area even though we are just barely in the NYC metro area.
This leads me to suspect we might be neighbors. PM me if you're curious.
Quote from: Jill F on February 04, 2015, 09:04:24 PM
Sometimes people are speechless when I tell them I'm trans now, and they can't all be great actors and liars, right?
Well, you do live in LA. ;)
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 06, 2015, 12:14:38 PM
I was afraid you'd say that, since I'm never going to be able to afford ffs.
If I were you I wouldn't sweat it. You look enough like my sister to be my niece. In fact, one of her daughters is a tall girl with a deep voice and quite lovely.
I don't think Dahlia means bad by her comment, and many of times I appreciate her straight up comments more than others but, here's the thing Dahlia: yes, you're right there might be some self delusion, etc, but here's the thing, many of them have just started their transitions, they might feel high on life and on cloud 9 from all the relief they feel having just started their transition. Whatever the reason, they're happy, and they're sharing it with others. Have you ever heard the term ignorance is bliss? In this case I would argue that what Susan means is, who are any of us, to knock anyone else down from their happiness? I would much rather a not too passable trans lady think she does pass (particularly If she passes enough that she's not being disrespected by others).than her be miserable and depressed in the reality of not passing so well. It's about compassion and wanting others to have their little share of happiness too.
Androgynouspainter: I am no psychologist, but you seem depressed, like your mental state needs stabilising first, taking care of that before worrying about passing or not might be a good idea, also, often our moods reflect the people we surround ourselves with. Do away with negative friends and family... Our natural state is not what is being reflected in your posts, and fighting other people's posts to bring them to think like you isn't going to help you or them. It's about bringing each other up hun. Also, I don't see the obsession with passing when your avatar says genderqueer, your name is androgynous. Are you actually mtf to have this focus on passing? Or have your feelings towards binary gender standards changed and now you want to belong in the binary world? These are things maybe you should clarify in your mind. And then work from there. But the assumption that you're never going to pass is, I believe, wrong and coming from a very depressed and negative stand point.
Regardless . Good luck sweetie . And tight hugs! Xo
Quote from: Ms Grace on February 03, 2015, 02:30:39 AM
If people stare at me (which doesn't happen that often) I presume it's because I'm tall and they're thinking "gee, that woman is tall" - not "that tall man is pretending to be a woman". :D
I've said it many, many, many times - passing is not just about how you look anyway. It's about presentation (how you dress, your hair, etc) and confidence. For some reason people can really sense when someone is nervous, it really draws their attention.
I COMPLETELY AGREE. How you feel about yourself on the inside shines out. Confidence and how you carry yourself are what ppl notice upon first glance. If you're comfortable being you you're indestructible. When your not you become vulnerable, and ppl sense that and hate to say it but exploit that. All the best wishes love, stay strong, stay fierce, and own every room you walk into!!
Passing for me cannot be absolute unless you carry a crystal ball in front of you and you can read peoples mind.
I am slowly giving up my obsession about how people think of me and just go on with my life.
I had my lash extensions done today and brow done too and all of the women that works there are addressing me as babe or sweetheart.
Will I consider that passing or they are just being nice to me? I take both.
Just live your life and be proud of who you are :)
Hugs
April
You can never ever know with certainty that you are passing unless you ask and that will out you.
Just let it go. If people accept you, accept that. If a guy flirts with you, accept that. If a girl flirts with you, accept that too. If you are naturally accepted into women's circles of conversation, that's a good indicator people are seeing you as a woman.
It's taking me time, but many of the looks I thought were "look at the guy in the dress" are, according to my cisgender girlfriends far more likely to be "she's pretty good looking". And one way I've learned to assess those looks is to look back, make eye contact and smile, then glance away, then glance back discretely and see how he reacts. If he smiles back, or as has occurred in several cases, smiled at me then said something to a male companion, still looking towards me, then it's probably a complimentary look.
With women I simply don't get negative looks at all so I assume I'm fine with other women.
Most of the time you don't know except for those times when your gendered correctly and even then you can't be 100 percent sure because some due their utmost best to be respectful and polite.
Mariah
Calicarly,
I am MtF; I also identify as genderqueer, but that has a lot more to do with my beliefs about the subject of gender, and does not influence my presentation in any way. I don't "believe" in binary gender per se, but we do live in a binary world, and regardless of what I want to do wrt my presentation, passing is something you just need to do if you're going to be treated fairly in the world. I'm tired of everyone seeing me as a trans woman, because when they do I am obligated to see myself the same way. My assumption is not wrong. I'm two years on HRT already-I'm beginning to believe my fate is sealed. Idk-you just think things are going to be different, and then-they aren't. I know I do get looks, and nobody, in my life, has ever flirted with me, so...I guess I don't. What else is there to change, is I guess the only question I have left? And when I can't answer that, perhaps it's time to consider going back. Yeah, I'm depressed, but not without reason. If your transition had failed, you would feel the same way.
Thanks for the advice-it means a lot.
Andro, I don't know you and I don't know how you behave so please understand that I am not asking by way of having a go but...Do you give people the space, opportunity and trust to allow them to flirt with you?
Rosie
I love my female life..thts all
I know that I don't currently pass. I've maxed out what makeup can do for me. I just have to wait for the hormones to do their thing.
Painter, I'm going to agree with Carli on this. I think you may be sending mixed signals.
I know a few trans people who started out identifying as queer and wound up being much closer to the binary than they expected. I suspect you may be on a similar path. You say you're definitely trying to go more towards the feminine, but do you maybe still have some queer mannerisms and traits that are outing you? I understand your principles, but if you're not really queer anymore, does it make sense to hold onto an identity that is no longer you?
BTW, from your avatar I think you're really cute. You've got potential. If your overall presentation was more standard for a while, I bet you'd begin to blend in and really take on the new female role. And then like Dread you could later move back towards the queer look if you wanted to.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 13, 2015, 10:42:35 AM
Calicarly,
I am MtF; I also identify as genderqueer, but that has a lot more to do with my beliefs about the subject of gender, and does not influence my presentation in any way. I don't "believe" in binary gender per se, but we do live in a binary world, and regardless of what I want to do wrt my presentation, passing is something you just need to do if you're going to be treated fairly in the world. I'm tired of everyone seeing me as a trans woman, because when they do I am obligated to see myself the same way. My assumption is not wrong. I'm two years on HRT already-I'm beginning to believe my fate is sealed. Idk-you just think things are going to be different, and then-they aren't. I know I do get looks, and nobody, in my life, has ever flirted with me, so...I guess I don't. What else is there to change, is I guess the only question I have left? And when I can't answer that, perhaps it's time to consider going back. Yeah, I'm depressed, but not without reason. If your transition had failed, you would feel the same way.
Thanks for the advice-it means a lot.
You may not believe in binary gender, but society does. Androgyny can be beautiful. Andreja Pejić gained international renown for being a pretty and androgynous model. Following her example, you are faced with a choice however: give up androgyny and commit to being perceived as female, or live under the microscope of people's scrutiny. There are women with MRKH, or indistinct/partially developed reproductive organs, intersex, and GID who all muddle the gender spectrum. And they don't tend to be viewed favorably in general, less so the more conservative the person.
I am a woman. Transgender is what cispeople call me. And I'm not done with my transition, nor do I believe there is an actual end to it, but there are fun milestones along the way.
Fate is what you make of it. If you want to fit in as a woman, don't wear alternative hair unless you want to move to a more bohemian area to get more appreciation of the statement. I got plenty of looks when I dyed my hair blue. Not because people were misgendering me, but because they were like, "What on earth would possess someone to dye their hair blue?" Having an exotic hair color can put other people off, and they won't be friendly with you. Would you flirt or act friendly with someone you perceived as intimidating and weird? What if they also seemed withdrawn, nervous, or standoffish? It seems like you may be preempting social situations with disengagement.
Penultimate thing: it is unfair to characterize or describe other people's thoughts, feelings and perceptions. While people will more often react to your presentation and body language before anything else, you can never truly know what they are thinking at a given moment. Judge not lest ye be judged.
Also, men will often not flirt with you until after first receiving an invitation from you, e.g.: meeting their eyes and holding their gaze across the room with a coy smile, accidental physical contact followed by friendly banter, overtly fellating a straw while making eye contact, etc..
Finally, when there's a will there's a way. Don't give up hope. Good luck.
Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from Katie's iPad using Tapatalk
Few edits to reword awkward sentences...
Quote from: Obfuskatie on February 14, 2015, 06:17:06 AM
Penultimate thing: it is unfair to characterize or describe other people's thoughts, feelings and perceptions. While people will more often react to your presentation and body language before anything else, you can never truly know what they are thinking at a given moment. Judge not lest ye be judged.
This ^ is so true. I was having a dimsum with a friend yesterday and the cook keeps looking at me and smiling. My initial thought was he clocked me that's why he's smiling and making gestures. But do I truly know what he's thinking? NO. I cannot obsess over their thoughts and their reactions coz it could be one:
1. It was just me and my girlfriend and we ordered 8 plates of different dim sum and maybe he's happy he made some money.
2. Maybe he finds me attractive or
3. He knows I am trans (whatever)
so just live your life babe - I promise it's going to get better. Also, maybe try to blend in more socially in appearance. I know you have a great fashion sense but I find that if I dress up the way a 34 y.o CIS woman does out there, the more I blend in and the less I get the looks.
Quote from: Obfuskatie on February 14, 2015, 06:17:06 AM
Also, men will often not flirt with you until after first receiving an invitation from you, e.g.: meeting their eyes and holding their gaze across the room with a coy smile, accidental physical contact followed by friendly banter, overtly fellating a straw while making eye contact, etc..
Finally, when there's a will there's a way. Don't give up hope. Good luck.
This Obfuskatie, you need to teach me LOL. I am too shy and when a guy looks at me I just look away - awful.
Love,
April
Do I not dress like a cis woman? Yet another thing I was unaware of.
It's hard to gauge as I have not seen you in public or seen a pic of you dressed up. Either way, just observe women your age wear and start from there and this can include overall appearance. Again, this is totally up to you. We can only give you suggestions at the end of the day it's your call.
As I have said in the past, you are beautiful. Be strong and transition does not end it's a continuous process. Btw, I wish I had your body just saying :)
April
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 14, 2015, 11:50:50 AM
Do I not dress like a cis woman? Yet another thing I was unaware of.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 14, 2015, 11:50:50 AM
Do I not dress like a cis woman? Yet another thing I was unaware of.
I have only seen one pic you that was a whole body shot and you looked like you dressed just fine.
I remember once for a few months ago when I walked past a rock-clothing store that had sale. Walked in, and bought a few clothes to myself. After I was done trying out in the dressing room and put the clothes on the counter to pay, the cashier was a girl and asked me if I was in need for some underwears and showed me that they had some deals on panties, which took me a few seconds to realize that I passed. Still I gave her the signal that I bought female clothes, but it still surprised me off guard.
And also another story when I was in a store to buy some running shoes. I asked for some help from staff and I just said that I need size 5-6 (37-38 in EU). She showed me immediately shoes from the wall where the female shoes were. She also mentioned which running shoes that were popular among females...
But most of the time I cannot tell if I pass or not. I mix alot my clothing kind of boyish, like street-style. Which in turn can make it harder for me to pass...
Oooo, hang on a sec, there was another one of those 'how to tell if you are passing' tests that the lovely Annie and I agreed on this morning. Way back when I was pretending to be male. any time I bought flowers I was asked if I would like the price removed. Since stopping all that pretence I have never been asked. You could try that?
Rosie
Or look at their reaction when they look at you is there a scowl or frown when they see you? If so, then most likely you've been clocked or they are left confused. Otherwise, they could just be looking at your top, hair, shoes etch :) I almost see a blank stare when I see people looking at me or a smile.
Quote from: RosieD on February 14, 2015, 03:59:43 PM
Oooo, hang on a sec, there was another one of those 'how to tell if you are passing' tests that the lovely Annie and I agreed on this morning. Way back when I was pretending to be male. any time I bought flowers I was asked if I would like the price removed. Since stopping all that pretence I have never been asked. You could try that?
Rosie
Oh, they do look at me that way! It's just a question of WHY-it is it the crazy hair, or am I actually being constantly, consistently clocked. The number of people in my life who have told me they had NO idea until I told them does not match up the the number of stares I get in public.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 14, 2015, 06:24:47 PM
Oh, they do look at me that way! It's just a question of WHY-it is it the crazy hair, or am I actually being constantly, consistently clocked. The number of people in my life who have told me they had NO idea until I told them does not match up the the number of stares I get in public.
There is nothing likely experimenting in public with different looks and see if that changes anything. There should be someway to temporarily tone down the hair. Or you could try the other direction and amp up your current look. Either would be interesting to see if that changes how people act around you.
Andro, your hairline looks great from your avatar and the photo I saw a few months ago. I would like to see you in just plain brunette hair pulled back in a pony. I know it sounds plain jane but I think your pretty face would stand out more than your hair xo
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 14, 2015, 06:24:47 PM
Oh, they do look at me that way! It's just a question of WHY-it is it the crazy hair, or am I actually being constantly, consistently clocked. The number of people in my life who have told me they had NO idea until I told them does not match up the the number of stares I get in public.
I think the hair will cause stares in an of itself . I stare all the time at males and females with colorful hair , it's really not a big deal it's just the hair. I don't have that which makes one able to do it in my personality, but I could really see getting quite psychedelic if I could manage it. I mean really psychedelic.
This is an interesting topic,
Just last week I tried something new. Since my laser therapy has removed all of my black hair from my upper and lower lip and chin, I only now have barely noticeable white hairs, which once shaved are not noticeable.
So last week, I wore a mans shirt (but bra underneath) my breasts are now 44B+, I had my women's skinny jeans on and gym shoes (pink) and my blonde wig. I just then had a little eyeliner, no lipstick, and a little mascara, plus a little blush. I then went to the Supermarket (Coles) stood in line and paid for $30 of items to get my petrol discount, I then went over to the gás station, bought some diesel for my new car. I used a red women's purse in both places to get my money out , the checkout girls bothy called me "maam" and have you had a nice day.
One hour later, I repeated the same exercise at both places with the same checkout staff but this time, no wig, white gym shoes, my Women's Skinny jeans, the same shirt (still wearing my bra underneath),but now using my wallet, no mascara, no eyeliner and no blush, and both girls said "Sir can we help you" how has you day been? Mind you I suppose checkout people are probably largely in a daze!
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 14, 2015, 06:24:47 PM
Oh, they do look at me that way! It's just a question of WHY-it is it the crazy hair, or am I actually being constantly, consistently clocked. The number of people in my life who have told me they had NO idea until I told them does not match up the the number of stares I get in public.
The thing is, stares from people do not automatically mean they've read you. I get stunned looks every now and then, I can only presume it's because they're thinking "my gosh, what a gorgeous Amazon! Is she a model?" ;D
Quote from: Ms Grace on February 15, 2015, 02:19:10 AM
"my gosh, what a gorgeous Amazon! Is she a model?" ;D
Yes. That happens to me everyday.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/16457130285_917a4052c0_o.jpg)
barbie~~
Quote from: Ms Grace on February 15, 2015, 02:19:10 AM
The thing is, stares from people do not automatically mean they've read you. I get stunned looks every now and then, I can only presume it's because they're thinking "my gosh, what a gorgeous Amazon! Is she a model?" ;D
[emoji1] Absolutely. Or they could be disgusted with how well you pull of a look they wish they were brave enough to wear. Or they could be annoyed with how tall and slender you are. Trust me, cis girls can be petty of the weirdest things.
Most of the time I look at girls, I'm busy categorizing their outfit and how much effort they put into their appearance. A lot of my cis girl friends are the same. When they're caught examining a girl, they'll usually just smile and compliment the girl about the thing they were fixated on. Like, "I love your shoes!" This tends to lead into longer discussions about shopping.
Hugs,
- Katie
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