So I have begun doing consults with various FFS surgeons. I don't think I need much (my profile pic is me in girl mode after two months of HRT). I would just like some brow contouring and I would like some tapering in my chin which is very square.
I was leaning towards Dr. Zukowski. I was a fan of the idea of his endoscopic methods. I had a great phone consultation with him. I can see how his personality might turn some people off, but him being a Jew from Westchester, and me being a Jew from Long Island, he felt like half of my family :-P. And I tend to have that big gregarious kind of personality as well. So I felt like I had a really good rapport with him. Also, he didn't recommend much either. I had initially wanted to do jaw contouring as well which he advised against and felt I didn't need. He ended up suggesting just forehead, chin, and he said I could take or leave a small lip lift and cheek implants (which I know he recommends to everyone) and said that he thinks I could take or leave those two procedures and I could always get them done later. However, then I read about that malpractice suit with the death of a woman and that freaked me out a little. I read as much as I could about it, and I know surgery with anyone carries risks, and it looks like it was more of an anesthesia issue more than anything else, but it still inflamed my anxiety just a little.
I have a consult with Dr. Spiegel on February 25th, though I've generally been less impressed with his work than Zukowski's.
Then lastly, today I was looking at Facial Team's results and was SUPER impressed. They looked very subtle but powerful, and their surgical techniques seemed technically innovative. I also liked that for forehead work, the incision was made in the back of the head which gets covered by hair and is therefore completely invisible. So I've set up a consult with them as well.
I think I'm still leaning towards Dr. Z, pending the other consults, BUT I wanted to find out about the experiences of anyone here with any of these surgeons.
Hi Dana
First let me say what a beautiful feminine face you already have in your avatar - way more female than mine and I've already had FFS. And hair to die for!
Although I don't have experience with the surgeons you mentioned (which I know is what you really want to talk about), just wondering if you are aware of the differences between the approaches of these surgeons. Comparing Dr Z with Dr S and the facial team is a bit like comparing apples and pears when it comes to bony work. For foreheads Dr Z tends to grind down the bone and then fill any residual bossing and also works on the chin by burring away the bone. However, Dr S and the facial team are maxillofacial surgeons who can reconstruct the bones in the forehead and perform genioplasty to move the bottom of the chin up/down and forward/back. The best approach all depends on the particular needs of the individual. For example, a typical male Type III forehead bossing might be best treated by being reconstructed rather than ground down and filled, especially if the bone is thin and the sinus cavity is large.
Overall I have seen great results from all the surgeons you mentioned. What is so difficult when picking an FFS surgeon is to make the selection based on the results they show you. IMHO the before and after shots are often cherry-picked to show the best and these tend to be from girls who have androgynous features to start with. So the results of the surgeon you get to see are largely dependent on the sample he has to work with. In the end, what's best for you will depend on YOUR features and the extent they need feminizing.
Hugs, Pandora
Quote from: Pandora on March 09, 2015, 07:30:13 AMthe results of the surgeon you get to see are largely dependent on the sample he has to work with. In the end, what's best for you will depend on YOUR features and the extent they need feminizing.
This is great advice!
Also keep in mind that there are many surgeons out there that can help you with these procedures - not just the ones who market their procedures with the whole FFS spiel. Dr. Spiegel himself told me that he had originally trained as a reconstructive surgeon, and got into FFS somewhat inadvertently from a patient asking if he could do the procedures for her, even though she didn't need reconstruction in the sense that something was physically wrong, like say from a vehicle accident or something.
Quote from: Pandora on March 09, 2015, 07:30:13 AM
Hi Dana
First let me say what a beautiful feminine face you already have in your avatar - way more female than mine and I've already had FFS. And hair to die for!
Although I don't have experience with the surgeons you mentioned (which I know is what you really want to talk about), just wondering if you are aware of the differences between the approaches of these surgeons. Comparing Dr Z with Dr S and the facial team is a bit like comparing apples and pears when it comes to bony work. For foreheads Dr Z tends to grind down the bone and then fill any residual bossing and also works on the chin by burring away the bone. However, Dr S and the facial team are maxillofacial surgeons who can reconstruct the bones in the forehead and perform genioplasty to move the bottom of the chin up/down and forward/back. The best approach all depends on the particular needs of the individual. For example, a typical male Type III forehead bossing might be best treated by being reconstructed rather than ground down and filled, especially if the bone is thin and the sinus cavity is large.
Overall I have seen great results from all the surgeons you mentioned. What is so difficult when picking an FFS surgeon is to make the selection based on the results they show you. IMHO the before and after shots are often cherry-picked to show the best and these tend to be from girls who have androgynous features to start with. So the results of the surgeon you get to see are largely dependent on the sample he has to work with. In the end, what's best for you will depend on YOUR features and the extent they need feminizing.
Hugs, Pandora
Thanks Pandora! I am LUCKY on the hair front. Most of the men on my mom's side are totally bald, and I was one of 8 boys on that side of the family. So it was always a, well, at least ONE of us is going to go bald out of the 8. Thankful it wasn't me or rather, thankful I didn't go bald before starting HRT :P. I did know the difference in techniques, it was a, I have no clue which would be more beneficial and am having trouble deciding because there seem to be pros and cons for me on the technique end with all of the above surgeons. I do like the endoscopic thing with Zukowski, A LOT, BUT I also know that makes it a much longer procedure since it makes things more complicated. I still have my Facial Team consult on March 22nd, so they're the wild card. I did ultimately decide that barring Facial Team, between Zukowski and Spiegel that I will probably go with Zukowski. That came down to two things, which were that my biggest area of concern is my jaw and chin. I do have a brow ridge but it's not particularly pronounced, so burring would probably be sufficient. And Zukowski tends to get a bit more aggressive on the jaw/chin front. Here is a more head on picture of myself that's a little less "glamorous" than my avatar :P:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1297.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag40%2Fdanalevinsonmusic%2Fimagejpeg_zpstpa5gbfk.jpg&hash=8e71bb550db3a5dae57f2a1a634a4b77971bfc01)
Also, beyond that different of technique, part of it was just a vibe thing. I know a lot of people seem to not get along with Dr. Z for whatever reason, or had bad experiences when consulting with him, but that was not my experience at all. My consult with him was nearly an hour long. He was EXTREMELY attentive to me and what I wanted. He also said how if I choose him he likes to see pictures of any cis women in the family that I look like to make sure I 'still look like I fit in family photos.' He also said things like, 'you have some natural asymmetry in your face, if you like it, that can be retained, if you don't I can fix it, personally I think it adds character.' To which I responded, I like the asymmetry, and I look a lot like my mom who has that subtle asymmetry to her face as well. Also he asked about ethnicity because he said different ethnicities have different characteristic facial features, which he likes to keep in mind, and he said, 'I assume from your last name and that you're from Long Island that you're Jewish (which was a good guess considering my last name is VERY Jewish :-P), but it looks like there's something else in there that's slightly more exotic.' And I went, good eye! Yes I'm Jewish but we suspect there's some Turkish/Sephardic North African mixed in there on my mom's side.
Spiegel was a fifteen minute consultation. He chit chatted a little bit, asked me what I do for a living. Then he asked me what I'm insecure about, I told him the small brow ridge a little bit, and then mainly my jaw and chin. He said, yes he'd definitely do those things. He would also want to make my nose a little bit smaller, which I was open to. Then I had some questions for him, some of which he answered, and some of which he stonewalled and said his staff would be in touch.
So also part of the leaning towards Zukowski over Spiegel is that factor. Not to mention the fact that the quote I got from Zukowski is over 10k cheaper than Spiegel...
Just a little suggestion. I agree with dr. Spiegel, a little smaller, and I would say also a little thinner nose, will make a big difference. It's not the very important gender marker, but I can already see you will look kind of very beautiful after FFS, no matter which one of those surgeons you'll decide to trust in the end. Not doing anything with nose, will take a little attractiveness away from overall result. Doing it properly will be an icing on a cake. It's not so much about feminization, but I think it would be worth doing it.
Quote from: mmmmm on March 10, 2015, 01:39:19 PM
Just a little suggestion. I agree with dr. Spiegel, a little smaller, and I would say also a little thinner nose, will make a big difference. It's not the very important gender marker, but I can already see you will look kind of very beautiful after FFS, no matter which one of those surgeons you'll decide to trust in the end. Not doing anything with nose, will take a little attractiveness away from overall result. Doing it properly will be an icing on a cake. It's not so much about feminization, but I think it would be worth doing it.
Oh, I definitely want to do my nose :P. It wasn't top of the list, but I figure I may as well while I'm doing everything else. That said, I love the shape of my nose, and actually like the small bump on it, BUT I would like the bridge a little thinner and the bottom just a hair smaller. Both Zukowski and Spiegel said they wouldn't touch the overall shape of my nose, just pretty much take the whole thing and shrink it a little bit :angel:. Which I'm TOTALLY down to do.
And thank you! I appreciate it!
Quote from: mmmmm on March 10, 2015, 01:39:19 PM
...but I can already see you will look kind of very beautiful after FFS, no matter which one of those surgeons you'll decide to trust in the end.
Totally agree with that and confirmed with the head-on shot. Understand your leaning towards Dr Z now given that bossing is not really an issue in your case. Must admit I was rather surprised by your experience with seeing Dr S. Fifteen minutes for an FFS consult is way shorter than I would expect and an hour is much more the norm. Perhaps it was because you have a great starting point and don't need much work.
Hugs, Pandora
Quote from: Pandora on March 11, 2015, 04:36:02 AM
Totally agree with that and confirmed with the head-on shot. Understand your leaning towards Dr Z now given that bossing is not really an issue in your case. Must admit I was rather surprised by your experience with seeing Dr S. Fifteen minutes for an FFS consult is way shorter than I would expect and an hour is much more the norm. Perhaps it was because you have a great starting point and don't need much work.
Hugs, Pandora
Thanks you guys :-). Y'all know how to make a girl feel good about herself :-). I appreciate it. So I practically grew up using photoshop since my mom is a jewelry designer. I was going to do the whole VFS thing to get a sense of what I may end up looking like with the recommended procedures, but I figured, instead of spending the money why not try my hand at it? So what I did was took the previously posted photo and did scalp advance, some forehead contouring, making my nose slightly smaller but retaining the shape, a small lip lift, and then jaw/chin reconstruction and tapering:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1297.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag40%2Fdanalevinsonmusic%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2Fimage_zpsgficuyhk.jpg&hash=eef74110d01ecbc50a60d6628048b1c76175ec12)
Now obviously I would never ever expect a result exactly like this, it would completely unrealistic. But is somewhere in this world realistic or am I being too photoshop trigger happy? ::)
Quote from: Dana88 on March 10, 2015, 01:18:44 PM
... Here is a more head on picture of myself that's a little less "glamorous" than my avatar :P:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1297.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag40%2Fdanalevinsonmusic%2Fimagejpeg_zpstpa5gbfk.jpg&hash=8e71bb550db3a5dae57f2a1a634a4b77971bfc01)
Still a total babe! ;D
Quote from: Eveline on March 11, 2015, 08:33:07 AM
Still a total babe! ;D
Thanks Eveline! You look fantastic too!!!
Quote from: Dana88 on March 11, 2015, 07:53:08 AM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1297.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag40%2Fdanalevinsonmusic%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2Fimage_zpsgficuyhk.jpg&hash=eef74110d01ecbc50a60d6628048b1c76175ec12)
Now obviously I would never ever expect a result exactly like this, it would completely unrealistic. But is somewhere in this world realistic or am I being too photoshop trigger happy? ::)
Wow - stunning! And yes, I would think something like this is realistic if the surgeon can do his stuff as the changes you have made are quite subtle. It's mainly the chin/jaw where the differences are more noticeable. Looking more closely it looks like the cheek bones at the sides have also been very slightly augmented - or is that just an optical illusion? Agree too that the lip lift should be small - overdone ones can look very fake sometimes.
Why not show the Dr Z and the Facial Team this picture and see what they say?
Quote from: Dana88 on March 11, 2015, 07:53:08 AM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1297.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag40%2Fdanalevinsonmusic%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2Fimage_zpsgficuyhk.jpg&hash=eef74110d01ecbc50a60d6628048b1c76175ec12)
Now obviously I would never ever expect a result exactly like this, it would completely unrealistic. But is somewhere in this world realistic or am I being too photoshop trigger happy? ::)
Wow, you're good with the photoshop, lol. You have an excellent starting point! I felt the same way about myself. I had surgery with Dr. Z. If you look at my history of posts you will find my FFS diary which includes my experience and how I feel about it. You're more than welcome to PM me if you wish.
Wishing you the best with whatever decision you make! :)
I am also from Long Island, hello neighbor. I had chin jaw surgery with Dr. Z and wasn't happy with the results. recently had it redone by Dr. S. I am much happier with the result and symitary I got from Dr. S. Although the healing process is a lot longer with Dr. S, as his approach is very different, but it's really the end result that matters most.
Good to know as that's where I need the most work (or want it rather). My philosophy is starting to be, go to the surgeon who recommends the least (unless of course it's ridiculously little), because I can always get more done. But once something is done, it can't be put back.
And where on LI are you???
Quote from: Pandora on March 12, 2015, 01:27:52 PM
Wow - stunning! And yes, I would think something like this is realistic if the surgeon can do his stuff as the changes you have made are quite subtle. It's mainly the chin/jaw where the differences are more noticeable. Looking more closely it looks like the cheek bones at the sides have also been very slightly augmented - or is that just an optical illusion? Agree too that the lip lift should be small - overdone ones can look very fake sometimes.
Why not show the Dr Z and the Facial Team this picture and see what they say?
That's a good idea. And yeah I felt like the only drastic change I made was my jaw and chin. And yes, I forgot haha, I'm still flirting with cheek augmentation, which Dr. Z recommended (which I know he tries to sell everyone on), but I do have pretty flat cheek bones.
I had cheek augmentation.. small and only frontal malar implants. I'm so happy I decided to include that, because I would otherwise seriously regret not having them, and it would cost me a lot more having that done additionally. This is not necessarily the most important part of facial feminization, but in terms of aesthetics and beauty, it can be a huge bonus.
I feel I need to mention, as noone does.. this way by far the hardest part of my recovery, definitely the most painful. Nothing else can't compare. Which is strange, because it's the least invasive of all procedures... I'm little over than 2 months now, and my left cheek still gets sore if I sleep on my left side for too long.
Quote from: mmmmm on March 13, 2015, 09:35:08 AM
I had cheek augmentation.. small and only frontal malar implants. I'm so happy I decided to include that, because I would otherwise seriously regret not having them, and it would cost me a lot more having that done additionally. This is not necessarily the most important part of facial feminization, but in terms of aesthetics and beauty, it can be a huge bonus.
I feel I need to mention, as noone does.. this way by far the hardest part of my recovery, definitely the most painful. Nothing else can't compare. Which is strange, because it's the least invasive of all procedures... I'm little over than 2 months now, and my left cheek still gets sore if I sleep on my left side for too long.
Yeah, I was saying to my parents how from what I hear, recovery from FFS is way worse than SRS, and also you look like you've been hit by a bus for a bit. They were pretty surprised.
I'm not shure about SRS (I could compare later this year)... but cheek implants alone did hurt more than jaw&chin&nose&forehead&trachea&blepharoplasty together. At least in my case
I believe each doctor has their sting points, one might exceed in one area and the other in another. I am in Huntington, where are you located?
Quote from: Danielle11746 on March 13, 2015, 11:56:53 AM
I believe each doctor has their sting points, one might exceed in one area and the other in another. I am in Huntington, where are you located?
Great Neck :-).
Quote from: mmmmm on March 13, 2015, 09:35:08 AM
I had cheek augmentation.. small and only frontal malar implants. I'm so happy I decided to include that, because I would otherwise seriously regret not having them, and it would cost me a lot more having that done additionally. This is not necessarily the most important part of facial feminization, but in terms of aesthetics and beauty, it can be a huge bonus.
Same here. Orbital rim reshaping and addressing the forehead bossing provided the most the feminisation for me whereas small cheek implants had a big impact on overall aesthetics (3/4 profile and head-on). Maybe that was because I had zero cheek bones to start with. Must say that the slight augmentation you added in your virtual FFS did look good.
Quote from: mmmmm on March 13, 2015, 09:35:08 AM
I feel I need to mention, as noone does.. this way by far the hardest part of my recovery, definitely the most painful. Nothing else can't compare. Which is strange, because it's the least invasive of all procedures... I'm little over than 2 months now, and my left cheek still gets sore if I sleep on my left side for too long.
Bit different here as the cheek implants were not particularly painful for me. Maybe an individual thing or perhaps the differences in materials used? No idea, perhaps I was just lucky.
BTW it might be worth double checking that a burring down of the chin will provide the level of change you want if you go with Dr Z since this is the area you have identified for the biggest change. Just to make sure that it isn't a genioplasty such as provided Dr S or the Facial Team that you need. Myself, I have no idea what is feasible using the burring technique. Perhaps someone else has an idea? May need side-on shots too depending on whether you want a change in projection (hard to tell from a head-on).
Quote from: Pandora on March 13, 2015, 03:37:52 PM
Bit different here as the cheek implants were not particularly painful for me. Maybe an individual thing or perhaps the differences in materials used? No idea, perhaps I was just lucky.
Based on info I got from my surgeon, cheek augmentation very often causes a lot of swelling, along with being reported by patients as the most most painful, or one of the most painful (I didn't have invasive jaw&chin work) procedures. I'm shure many also react differently, so you got lucky in that department.
Augmentation with silicone implant is less invasive (...or should be) because created pocket needed for instalation of implant can be much smaller, compared to size of a pocket needed for medpor implant. I have silicone implants, and I don't even want to think about if having medpor implants would be any less pleasant...
Quote from: Pandora on March 13, 2015, 03:37:52 PM
BTW it might be worth double checking that a burring down of the chin will provide the level of change you want if you go with Dr Z since this is the area you have identified for the biggest change. Just to make sure that it isn't a genioplasty such as provided Dr S or the Facial Team that you need. Myself, I have no idea what is feasible using the burring technique. Perhaps someone else has an idea? May need side-on shots too depending on whether you want a change in projection (hard to tell from a head-on).
Dr. Z had said he'd do genioplasty for the chin and burring for the parts of my jaw where it's most square. I am starting to think I'm gonna nix the cheek implants. It seems like a lot of hassle in recovery for something that I go, it'd be nice, but I'm not really insecure about it.
My consult with Facial Team is a week from tomorrow :-). So I'll see what they say and then HOPEFULLY finally be able to settle on someone soon. I was saying to someone else that this is the only thing I haven't settled on a surgeon for. And that's because at the end of the day, it's my face. If I get an unsatisfactory SRS result, while I'd of course not be happy about it, no one is gonna see it unless I'm choosing to show them. But if you get a bad FFS result, that is out there for all to see whether you like it or not. Oof. Ignites my neurosis. Haha.
Quote from: Dana88 on March 14, 2015, 11:05:39 AM
Dr. Z had said he'd do genioplasty for the chin and burring for the parts of my jaw where it's most square.
Wow, are you sure he said that? I really didn't realise Dr. Z did genioplasty. I thought that was only the realm of maxillofacial surgeons. His web site must be a bit out of date then because it seems to say that he does "high speed burr to 3-dimensionally shape" rather than genioplasty (see the page on Chin Reduction, Advancement and Reshaping). Anyway, I don't really know much about the pros and cons of burring. Perhaps others have experience of this technique?
Wishing you the best with your decision and good luck with your consult with the Facial Team.
Hugs, Pandora
Quote from: Pandora on March 14, 2015, 12:46:42 PM
Wow, are you sure he said that? I really didn't realise Dr. Z did genioplasty. I thought that was only the realm of maxillofacial surgeons. His web site must be a bit out of date then because it seems to say that he does "high speed burr to 3-dimensionally shape" rather than genioplasty (see the page on Chin Reduction, Advancement and Reshaping). Anyway, I don't really know much about the pros and cons of burring. Perhaps others have experience of this technique?
Wishing you the best with your decision and good luck with your consult with the Facial Team.
Hugs, Pandora
Hmmm, double checked my notes from my consult with him and that's what I have written down. It's certainly possible I misheard, or miswrote. Definitely worth double checking on before making a final decision. Thanks for the heads up!