**Updated to add: http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-02-09/gay-marriage-cleared-by-u-s-supreme-court-to-start-in-alabama ** Wynternight
In a 7-2 order, the justices rejected Alabama's bid to stop a federal trial judge's legalization order from taking effect Monday. The state now will become the 37th where gays can marry. Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas dissented.
(Alabama Chief Justice) Roy Moore orders ban on same-sex marriage licenses
Brian Lyman, Montgomery Advertiser 10:06 p.m. CST February 8, 2015
Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore Sunday evening ordered probate judges in the state of Alabama to not issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, setting up a potential showdown between Alabama's chief justice and the federal courts.
The six-page letter, issued hours before same-sex marriage was expected to become legal in Alabama, says "no probate judge shall issue or recognize a marriage license that is inconsistent with Article 1, Section 36.03, of the Alabama Constitution or § 30-1-19, Ala. Code 1975." The named sections refer, respectively, to the state's 2006 constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, and the 1998 law doing so.
More at:
http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/southunionstreet/2015/02/08/moore-orders-probate-judges-not-to-issue-same-sex-marriage-licenses/23099621/
Tomorrow same sex marriages were supposed to be legal in Alabama.
This is going to get interesting and maybe ugly too.
I wonder if they'll issue the licenses anyway and ignore Roy Moore?
Chief Justice Moore is going to get himself kicked off the bench. It's happened before, and it will happen again over this. The Southern Poverty Law Center had filed an ethics complaint against him with the state's Judicial Inquiry Commission. From HuffPo (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chad-griffin/its-time-for-justice-roy_b_6631686.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices):
This isn't Chief Justice Moore's first rodeo. A decade ago, he ignored a federal court order requiring the removal of a statue of the Ten Commandments from the State Judicial Building. For this offense, he was removed by the State Supreme Court in 2003. "[T]he Oath taken by Chief Justice Moore commands him to support both the United States and Alabama Constitutions," read the opinion removing him. "In the event of a conflict between the constitutions of Alabama and the United States, the Constitution of the United States must prevail."
Apparently he didn't learn anything the first time around.
I think Justice Moore is trying to make a martyr of himself. We mustn't let him. Not sure how we can stop it, but we should.
Two words come to mind: epic fail.
Yep, he's done.
Obviously, his opinion is the only one that counts and this is the hill that he has chosen to die on.
The feds will help him along on that journey :laugh:
The only people who'll see him as a martyr are the ones whose minds are bolted shut -- their opinions will never change, and the best we can hope for is that they'll learn, more or less, to keep their mouths shut.
Justice Moore will make himself a laughingstock with most other people.
When was the last time that attempting to defy a federal court worked in favor of the South? Arkansas in 1957? Selma in 1965? I would just love to see the look on their faces if the president deployed the military and/or U.S. Marshals to force the state to comply with a court order by replacing court clerks who refuse to do their jobs and arresting officials who ordered clerks to defy a federal court. BTW, why is it that a judge use their interpretation of the bible in rulings instead of the U.S. Constitution and not be instantly and permanently disbarred.
My prediction is that Moore will be forced into retirement, after which he will take a cruise and fall off the edge of the flat Earth.
He's going to shoot himself in the foot with this, and nobody's going to give him a band-aid to cover it.
Wow. Everyone. I wish I had your confidence in the adeptness of the federal government and their willingness to confront a state on behalf of a bunch of gay people. The president didn't even believe in gay marriage until a short time ago. I wish I could be confident that he'd be willing to risk a constitution crisis on our behalf.
I'm not so optimistic as all that, but he pretty much has to, Suzi. Alabama has already triggered the crisis. If the feds let it go it damages precedents all the way back to the 1860s.
It's not much of a "crisis" at this point; last I heard, clerks in some counties were issuing licenses and some weren't.
Given that seven out of nine Supreme Court justices just said "Eff you, Alabama, we're not gonna give you a stinkin' stay until we rule on this in the summer, so suck it up and marry those people!"... it's just a matter of time.
But I'm sure that if Alabama stations state troopers with dogs on the courthouse steps to keep the queers out, Obama will send federal troops. [/sarcasm] (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefiringline.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fwink.gif&hash=fd49c1687b59c0ea097a7b4f1ed562a996fdaf5c)
Quote from: Tysilio on February 10, 2015, 10:01:00 AM
It's not much of a "crisis" at this point; last I heard, clerks in some counties were issuing licenses and some weren't.
Given that seven out of nine Supreme Court justices just said "Eff you, Alabama, we're not gonna give you a stinkin' stay until we rule on this in the summer, so suck it up and marry those people!"... it's just a matter of time.
But I'm sure that if Alabama stations state troopers with dogs on the courthouse steps to keep the queers out, Obama will send federal troops. [/sarcasm] (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefiringline.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fwink.gif&hash=fd49c1687b59c0ea097a7b4f1ed562a996fdaf5c)
It's a crisis in that the White House needs to decide what to do. Do they start enforcement against those judges that are defying the federal order? This would be federal action against a state official. That would be BIG. Or do they decide not to do anything. That would also be big since it would in effect allow Alabama to take federally guaranteed rights away from its LGB citizens who want to marry. Based on what they have done so far (said nothing, done nothing), I fear they'll take the path of least resistance and allow Alabama to trample our rights.
"Stupid is as stupid does"- Forrest Gump
It's not as big as desegregation under Wallace, by a long shot, which was the last time the federal executive stepped in; this makes Alabama, what, the 37th state in which same-sex marriage is legal? The tide has turned on this one.
Since it now seems to be a given that the Supreme Court will rule in favor of equal rights early this summer, my guess is that the Obama administration wouldn't act until that happens, if Alabama (or other states) chose to defy the ruling after that.
In the meantime, there's that ethics complaint. There's also the possibility that Judge Callie Granade, the federal district court judge who just ruled Alabama's law unconstitutional, could find Justice Moore in contempt. I suppose she could even throw him in jail -- wouldn't that be delicious?
Just from watching the boob tube I learned that there are only a few counties that are not issuing any licenses to anyone. That won't last and like Moore's ten commandment stunt this one will go into the dustbin too. Regressive theater IMO.
Quote from: suzifrommd on February 10, 2015, 04:36:36 AM
Wow. Everyone. I wish I had your confidence in the adeptness of the federal government and their willingness to confront a state on behalf of a bunch of gay people. The president didn't even believe in gay marriage until a short time ago. I wish I could be confident that he'd be willing to risk a constitution crisis on our behalf.
Absolutely this. I can point out a number of cases where the states aren't following SCOTUS decisions either. But they don't do it in such an outright obvious manner. They do it more subtle and actually try to rationalize their reasoning to the decisions.
As it is, only a few counties are issuing licenses. This may be enough for there to be "same sex marriage in Alabama" but a lot of people are still being denied their right.
And that is wrong.
The Constitution and the rule of law are important. All of it. Not just parts that people like.
Quote from: Tessa James on February 10, 2015, 12:48:47 PM
Just from watching the boob tube I learned that there are only a few counties that are not issuing any licenses to anyone. That won't last and like Moore's ten commandment stunt this one will go into the dustbin too. Regressive theater IMO.
Actually I think it's the other way around.
Most are accepting the applications but sitting on them.
Some are refusing to issue to same sex couples.
Some are refusing to issue licenses to anyone, gay or straight.
Some are issuing.
I hope this doesn't get ugly. It could.
Judges In 51 Of Alabama's 67 Counties Refusing To Issue Marriage Licenses To Same-Sex Couples
By David Badash The New Civil Rights Movement
February 10, 2015 8:52 AM
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/judges_in_51_of_alabama_s_67_counties_refusing_to_issue_marriage_licenses_to_same_sex_couples (http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/judges_in_51_of_alabama_s_67_counties_refusing_to_issue_marriage_licenses_to_same_sex_couples)
Can it really be called "marriage equality" when more than three-quarters of the state refuses to allow same-sex couples to marry?
Same-sex marriage came Alabama Monday, after the U.S. Supreme Court announced it would not grant a delay just as probate judges offices were readying to open. That is, some probate judges. In 51 of Alabama's 67 counties, some probate judges kept their offices closed, some refused to issue marriage licenses to any couples, some refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, and some, just 16 at most, were open for business as the law requires.
Quote from: ImagineKate on February 10, 2015, 01:00:27 PM
Ugly. 51 counties not issuing licenses. Not good.
Edited by news staff to meet forum requirements
Quote from: ImagineKate on February 10, 2015, 01:00:27 PM
Judges In 51 Of Alabama's 67 Counties Refusing To Issue Marriage Licenses To Same-Sex Couples
By David Badash The New Civil Rights Movement
February 10, 2015 8:52 AM
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/judges_in_51_of_alabama_s_67_counties_refusing_to_issue_marriage_licenses_to_same_sex_couples (http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/judges_in_51_of_alabama_s_67_counties_refusing_to_issue_marriage_licenses_to_same_sex_couples)
Can it really be called "marriage equality" when more than three-quarters of the state refuses to allow same-sex couples to marry?
Same-sex marriage came Alabama Monday, after the U.S. Supreme Court announced it would not grant a delay just as probate judges offices were readying to open. That is, some probate judges. In 51 of Alabama's 67 counties, some probate judges kept their offices closed, some refused to issue marriage licenses to any couples, some refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, and some, just 16 at most, were open for business as the law requires.
Thanks for the correction and update Kate. I'll be skipping Alabama on my upcoming southern tour and imagine this kind of discrimination will hurt the state as well as those wanting and deserving equal rights. More education and advocacy are answers to this blatant demagoguery and it seems certain the federal courts will prevail and simply cost Alabama some time and $ they could better spend elsewhere.
According to the LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-alabama-same-sex-marriage-20150210-story.html), a short while ago:
Four couples in Mobile have asked U.S. District Judge Callie V.S. Granade to instruct [Probate Judge Don] Davis to issue them marriage licenses after Davis stopped issuing all marriage licenses rather than having to issue ones to same-sex couples. The judge set a hearing for Thursday.
I doubt that she'll take long to issue a ruling on this; here come the contempt citations, I'd bet.
CBS is describing the current situation as "judicial chaos."
Get out the popcorn, kids, this is history being made, and it's actually pretty fun to watch, if you just take a couple of steps back. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefiringline.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fwink.gif&hash=fd49c1687b59c0ea097a7b4f1ed562a996fdaf5c)
Edited to add:
According to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/us/alabama-gay-marriage-advocates-renew-legal-push-for-licenses.html?_r=0), if Judge Granade issues an order directed at Alabama's probate judges, who are the people making this decision at the county level, they will then be personally liable for damages and court costs from any subsequent lawsuits aimed at forcing them to obey the federal ruling. And they've been warned:
The potential pocketbook issues had been one of the elements probate judges had to consider as they deliberated whether to issue the licenses. Sonny Brasfield, executive director of the Association of County Commissions of Alabama, said Tuesday that his organization had warned the judges of the possibility of losing liability coverage under a cooperative county insurance policy if they did not comply with a federal order.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefiringline.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fcool.gif&hash=d4879c0267a356dff26cd86b0fa87ea42a6199e1)
I think the U.S. Supreme Court could and will remove Judge Moore for his defiance.
The good news is that if one is determined to get married and nothing else, worst case an hour or two drive will get you covered.
I think most of the people affected, while they want to get married, they are more determined to correct the improper behavior of the majority of the state at the expense of delaying their marriage. I'm just disappointed at the lack of measures taken against Moore and his followers. I'm surprised Obama hasn't sent the FBI to arrest them or something like that. Most of the difference between yesterday and today are some of them realizing this is only going to hurt them in the long run and there is a possibility they could end up in jail where as there is nothing happening at all to people issuing licenses.
QuoteI'm surprised Obama hasn't sent the FBI to arrest them or something like that.
I'm not. Nothing would be gained by it at this stage -- it would just make a lot of people even more hostile to the idea of same-sex marriage than they already are, and as I noted above, the legal process is still in action over this. There are a lot of steps to take before it would be appropriate to start arresting people: the suit which was filed today is a big one. Justice Moore is effectively the county judges' boss, and until a federal judge directly orders them to comply (this hasn't happened yet, but it likely will on Thursday), they're faced with the choice of violating state law, as interpreted by Justice Moore, or violating federal law: damned if they do, damned if they don't.
The state's judicial ethics panel has the power to remove Justice Moore from office. They've done it before, and they'll do it again if he doesn't back down over this. If you were the federal Justice Department, wouldn't you rather see this handled at the state level, rather than provoke still more anger and hostility?
Federal Judge Sets Hearing in Alabama on Same-Sex Marriage
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/us/alabama-gay-marriage-advocates-renew-legal-push-for-licenses.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/us/alabama-gay-marriage-advocates-renew-legal-push-for-licenses.html)
By RICHARD FAUSSET and RICHARD PÉREZ-PEÑA FEB. 10, 2015
By Tuesday afternoon, more probate judges were issuing licenses; those refusing were in 44 of Alabama's 67 counties, down from 54 on Monday, according to a tally kept by the Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights group.
Among those resisting was Judge Don Davis of Probate Court here in Mobile County, the second-most populous county in the state. This made him the primary target of same-sex marriage advocates who asked Judge Granade to order him and his aides to issue the licenses. A hearing is scheduled for Thursday. Advocates hope that an order against Judge Davis would apply to other refusing judges.
Problem is that Fed trumps State every single time. By ignoring the federal orders they are in violation of the law. Given a choice between violating a federal law vs a state law, I'll pick federal every time and I'll sue the state for any interference in that regard. At least it sounds like this could be fixed on Thursday. I just think that jerk is getting away with far too much right now. I hope he goes to prison and gets disbarred. This is the 2nd time he's done something like this.
Quote from: Tysilio on February 10, 2015, 06:25:12 PM
I'm not. Nothing would be gained by it at this stage -- it would just make a lot of people even more hostile to the idea of same-sex marriage than they already are, and as I noted above, the legal process is still in action over this. There are a lot of steps to take before it would be appropriate to start arresting people: the suit which was filed today is a big one. Justice Moore is effectively the county judges' boss, and until a federal judge directly orders them to comply (this hasn't happened yet, but it likely will on Thursday), they're faced with the choice of violating state law, as interpreted by Justice Moore, or violating federal law: damned if they do, damned if they don't.
The state's judicial ethics panel has the power to remove Justice Moore from office. They've done it before, and they'll do it again if he doesn't back down over this. If you were the federal Justice Department, wouldn't you rather see this handled at the state level, rather provoke still more anger and hostility?
This article (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/us/in-defiance-alabama-sets-itself-far-apart.html) in the New York Times has some interesting background on this: specifically, it goes into some detail about Alabama's long history of defying the federal government over all sorts of things; it's pretty much a hangover from the Civil War, the remnant of that diehard insistence on "states' rights."
Such brazen and often futile campaigns are practically hard-wired into the state's character. Long after George Wallace's stand against integration in the schoolhouse door, to which Chief Justice Moore's stance has been inevitably compared, the state's record of taking on the federal government in long-shot battles has continued to set it apart even from its conservative neighbors.
<snip>
"It's like our oxygen is defiance and our identity is aggrievement," said Diane McWhorter, an Alabama native and author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning book about civil rights-era Birmingham, "Carry Me Home."
That history is another reason why it would be far better for the feds to sit this one out, at least for the time being. It seems to me that changing that pattern of defiance is a better goal than "punishing" the state for its actions, which is how any federal intervention would be seen. One way to get people, and perhaps states, to change bad behavior is to make them clean up their own messes. If Justice Moore is disciplined by the state's judicial ethics board, he won't be nearly the martyr/hero he'd be if the feds stepped in and cited him for contempt or arrested him.
Let the rulings on this and other civil rights matters come from federal courts, but give the state the chance to pick up the burden of forcing compliance with those rulings; if the people of Alabama see that they just end up having to fix the messes their leaders make, while looking foolish until they do, they'll likely have a lot less tolerance for the folks who make them.